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Economic Crisis
Hi all,

Regarding all the bad news about economy disaster, company layoff, company closure, unemployment rate increase in many countries, and despite the fact that market shares seem to goes up, I'd like to open this thread and discuss about the economic situation, and what are our personal point of view about all of this. The idea is not only to discuss about video game companies, but also about your personal situation, and maybe some other business area.

As some of you may know, my company (Wipro) is shuting down its activity in France, particularly our R&D center in Sophia Antipolis (please refer to http://wireless.leader.free.fr/index.php?Itemid=76 for further details about our situation), so that's why I have some interest in such thread.

If any of you is experimenting such situation (others are welcome as well :P), I'd like to discuss about your opinion about the economic situation, whether you have in mind to change of area, whether you have in mind to change of business area, whether you have already a back up solution, whether your job is secured, whether your company is in a good shape or not, etc.. etc...

I know it is not a funny thread, but today I think it is a good idea to share point of views about worldwide employment situation.

So please take anti-depressing medics, and share your opinion ;)
Well 
Selling a prototype is now pretty difficult, and even closing a finished game has slowed down alot. 
Well 
jpl... 
Don't Think Of It As A Recession 
Think of it as the world going on a diet after 50 years of feasting at an all-you-can-eat buffet. 
On A More Deep Note ... 
First, JPL, I am sorry to hear about that and to any others that are facing challenging times.

On the upside, all change occurs due to stress, pressure and need so we are going to see more "problem solving" in the world in the coming years.

In the USA, it is funny to watch lifelong politicians who are used to unlimited spending and taxation who believe that things are going to return to "normal".

And it is amusing to watch workers that aren't used to "work" and a demand of performance.

Personally, I am enjoying the recession so far because I know people can and will adapt and watching people learn and think and evolve is very satisfactory.

Life isn't about unlimited shopping, lifetime employment, what kind of car you drive or wasting money or politicians that don't know what a budget is. 
On A More Humanitarian Note... 
As usual, the poor and the working class are the first to suffer: see how many people are without healthcare or without a job. :( 
Hmm 
And it is amusing to watch workers that aren't used to "work" and a demand of performance.

Yeh, it's fucking hilarious to watch people suffer because there aren't enough jobs. It splits my fucking sides to see people unable to feed their families or unable afford shelter. Especially given those who are most affected are the poorest in society (as inertia pointed out), not the people resposible for the current economic crisis, not even those 'most deserving' to suffer (because people deserve pain for hurting me!!1).

Personally, I am enjoying the recession so far

ie, you haven't been laid off due to downsizing yet

watching people learn and think and evolve is very satisfactory.

I'm sure it is, it gives you that warm glow that you are more knowledgable, more evolved, just god damn better than those around you... You fucking self aggrandising, wretchedly callous, vermin raped, excremental cunt 
Yup 
That was fast. 
Hmm 
I'm hungry. I react badly to be told that that's amusing... 
Let's Not Turn This Into A Scampie/trinca Thread 
watching people learn and think and evolve

Too bad they're doing the same shit all-over again. In Germany, Allianz and Deutsche Bank are already making billions. And the German government was either too stupid or too corrupt to actually force them to pay back what they got from us. 
Uhm 
Deutsche Bank is one of the banks that was not that badly affected by the crisis because they mostly stayed away from foul credits. Hypovereinsbank is another example, they are doing pretty well, too.

I'm not saying that you are wrong though. An international entity that controls the financial sector is necessary and was promised, but nothing happened. Also very disappointing is the fact that the worst of the crisis was averted so far by making even more debt, which is going to haunt is and generations to come. On the other hand, the money that was spent by the government seems to have been invested well, since so far germany has not been hit too hard. But maybe the worst is still to come.

JPL and others who have lost their jobs: Sorry to hear it, and I hope you will get back on your feet again soon.

I myself have not been affected by the crisis so far since I'm writing my thesis. I will have to look for a job in a couple of weeks though, and that might be harder than it would have been two years ago. Also, noone I know has been laid off so far, but those people who just finished their studies or are looking for work for other reasons are having a hard time, depending on what sector they're in. 
 
The Tobin tax would help everyone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobin_tax

But just look what happens when people mention it: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aJqRedRZpa5c 
Deutsche Bank 
they mostly stayed away from foul credits.
Yeah, they just sold them to other banks before/until it all went down. Also, I remember something about the HRE buying all their foul credit, but I can't find any reference now and have no time for an in-depth search.

people who just finished their studies
New roommate has a diploma in Maschinenbau/engineering and isn't finding anything. 
Figures 
Machine engineering is one of the most heavily hit sectors in Germany. Hope he'll find something soon though.

As for Deutsche Bank, haven't heard of what you claimed, but I guess it's possible. 
Suffering? 
Nonentity:

Yeh, it's fucking hilarious to watch people suffer because there aren't enough jobs.

No one in Western civilization is starving. And no one is losing limbs, getting bombed, dying of cholera or being gassed in concentration camps.

You fucking self aggrandising, wretchedly callous, vermin raped, excremental cunt

Heheh. Vulgarity is how the weak-minded express their thoughts. And it is the limit to the depth of their thoughts as well ...

it gives you that warm glow that you are more knowledgable, more evolved, just god damn better than those around you

I'm better than no one. But when things get tough, some of us will passively choose to be victims in this world while others of us -- people like me -- take the active and hands on approach to molding our own lives.

I do enjoy the recession. I get to watch people who at first think they are victims grow and realize that in fact, yes they CAN take on the challenges, adapt and handle the new environment.

And many people never knew they could do it!

It is a testament to the human spirit. 
Baker 
No one in Western civilization is starving.

as long nobody in the western civilisation is starving the world is ok lol

I do enjoy the recession.

Please keep your narrow minded thoughts in the US. 
Hmm 
No one in Western civilization is starving.

That's not actually true though is it? In fact, even in boom times that wasn't true...

And while I'm not starving, I have lost two stone in the last couple of months since I can't afford to eat much more than a small meal a day given my bank is taking ~65% of my income (income I only even have because I live in a country with a welfare state, if I lived somewhere less liberal I would actually be starving) on threat of court action, repossession of my meagre possessions (which would total less than my debt anyway) and other such wonderful things. (Yes this is one of the same banks that has been bailed out by the government...)

I also would have been kicked out of my house since I can't afford rent if it weren't for the fact my landlord has let me do repairs on the house in return for not evicting me.

I live in an area of northern england which currently has virtually no employment opportunities due to the recession (and what few are available are over applied, under paid and nigh on impossible to get). I could 'adapt' to this. I could move to a new area. Give up the life I've spent nearly a decade building. Leave my mrs since her family are here and she won't move. Leave all my friends behind. Leave everything I hold dear because of an economic climate I did not cause.
That's not 'over coming a challenge', that's having to abandon my whole life.


Oh and 1) since you seem to be unable to understand my meaning; self aggrandising is over promoting your own importance, wretchedly callous is so devoid of empathy for other humans that you are pitiful, vermin raped implies even rats are more than you and excremental cunt would contexually mean you're a cold spirit person. Weak minded I may be, but at least I comprehend the meaning of words I read.

2) I'm better than no one. is somewhat invalidated by phrases such as the weak minded and while others of us -- people like me


I'm not entirely sure I should have to give in depth details of my situation on an internet forum, but I felt it would highlight my point to show examples of suffering caused by the recession. So, exactly what challenges have you overcome? How did you cope with losing your job? How did you deal with bailiffs at your door at 9am? Or are you just proud of having kept the job you already have without understanding or imagining the circumstances and difficulties of those you are so quick to judge? You self righteous prick, you know nothing of human spirit (shit, profanity, that must automatically undermine every comment I've made) 
 
"No one in Western civilization is starving."

That is so wrong, it's sad. 
 
"I do enjoy the recession. I get to watch people who at first think they are victims grow and realize that in fact, yes they CAN take on the challenges, adapt and handle the new environment. "

You're an asshole. 
What? 
I live in an area of northern england which currently has virtually no employment opportunities due to the recession (and what few are available are over applied, under paid and nigh on impossible to get). I could 'adapt' to this. I could move to a new area.

Sounds like a good idea.

Give up the life I've spent nearly a decade building.

What life? Friends remain friends even if there is a distance between you, real friends that is. Also you are likely to make new ones as well. Pretty much all wordly posessions can be moved, some of them can be a pain, but it can be done.

Leave my mrs since her family are here and she won't move.

What the fuck? Why would the place of residence of either your family or the family of your mrs have ANY weight whatsoever? 
@non-entity 
So, exactly what challenges have you overcome? How did you cope with losing your job? How did you deal with bailiffs at your door at 9am? Or are you just proud of having kept the job you already have without understanding or imagining the circumstances and difficulties of those you are so quick to judge? You self righteous prick, you know nothing of human spirit (shit, profanity, that must automatically undermine every comment I've made)

Yes your use of profanity does undermine every comment you've made, but putting that aside ..

I've overcome countless challenges and am still overcoming them. These ARE interesting times.

But people have the choice to grab the reigns and take control; some people will sit idly by and yield their circumstances to external forces and sit there helplessly and allow the economy to dictate its terms.

You can cut back, get 2 jobs, move in with family, quit eating at restaurants, work for below your normal wage, sell things, get public assistance, cancel cable, sell your car if you have one and get an inexpensive one.

Yet many pampered people will resist or refuse to make such choices.

Everyone in the West, even during these more difficult times, lives a standard of living embarrassingly magnificent compared to the developing world.

And yet so many in the West are crying for themselves and calling it so-called "suffering".

Pampered people's use the word "suffering", not knowing what true suffering is, is quite embarrassing really.

Challenging? Definitely. Suffering? No.

I'm sure some people will enjoy flaming me just to score points or whatever (have at it! do I seem like I am concerned?) but if you take a moment to see what I am trying to say into context, you will see the irony of the situation.

At least in the United States, our country fell in love with borrowing and spending (mortgage debt, government debt, credit cards) without thinking that one day the foreign credit would run dry.

Do USA citizens have the right to unlimited foreign borrowing to fund a hedonistic lifestyle?

This is my point of view as the economy relates to the United States. 
Baker 
Just because you were lucky enough to have the mental and emotional fortitude to over come challenges, does not mean a) that others are lucky enough to have that same fortitude, nor does it mean b) that others' challenges are as "easy" as yours have been.

Have some empathy. 
Baker And Everyone 
ok baker listen man you only know what your told

everyone go and look at the slums of south america or africa or india and then start talking about economic crisis

we dont know what we are talking about.

ive driven past one and i bet ijed has something to say (maybe?) about the idea of problems (ie slums) but personally I 'aint gonna touch that with a 50ft barge pole, cause lets face it we are are all in a position where we are able to lavish the gift of "modern technology" upon ourselves and communicate with a "community" of our liking, without fear of persecution or violence, or war, or ethinc cleansing or famine or starvation. 
 
And Are Are You At 5:00am? 
tucked up 
 
where even 
Different People, Different Situation. 
First of all thanks to all the people who are sympathizing with me regarding my situation: it is catastrophic,but not completely desperate :P

Our delegates had lately new meetings with our CEO about what the company is proposing. what the company is, proposing in temr of package, follow up of employees, help to find a new jobs (all these are legal measures in france), etc.. are completely under the minimum legal requirements.

Our delegates pointed it up, and made an alternate proposal that has been completely refused, and the CEO told us a global fuck you... so possible negotiations...

I know other major companies have much more repsect to their employees, believe me... so today I know I will certainely not get as much as others in the same business area... anyway

The other problem is to move from area to get a new job: quite easy when you are alone... not really when you have kids, and a wife with a job...

So different people, different situations, and also different beahviour... you are never happy to be fired, but I was expecting more "respect" from Wipro top management...

Anyway: there are solutions, not for every employees unfortunately...

Wait and see... :/ 
Errata 
so NO possible negotiations... 
 
"everyone go and look at the slums of south america or africa or india and then start talking about economic crisis

we dont know what we are talking about."

This is not a good debating tactic. Because those people over there are suffering worse, that means that the people over there aren't and shouldn't complain and we shouldn't empathize? That's ridiculous.

Yes, other societies have people who are worse off than most Americans. People in this country are still losing jobs, homes, and going hungry because of this crisis. 
@Inertia 
First thanks for the first non-assholic response to what I said.

Look, I do feel for what people like JPL, nonentity and -- well -- even myself have gone through.

In a rare post where I even mention any personal details of my life, life has tried to eff me over at least 5 or 6 times and the first couple of times I was scared but last few times I put on my "game face" and said "Life is trying to screw me over again; let's teach life a lesson about trying to do that to me." [As a result, I am unusually aggressive.]

It DOES suck.

But looking past the feelings, when life deals you some bad cards you STILL have no choice but to play the cards you are dealt.

I choose the glass is half-full approach and most people struggling in the "new economy" aren't dealing with life or death but rather dealing with major inconvenience and the fear of the unknown.

If you find the positive in a situation, you are so much better off. The positive is that this isn't life and death, but largely material inconvenience and stress. And the fact is, the world economy will not likely improve soon so the sooner people develop a non-victim mentality and go for the "I will take on this challenge" approach, the better off people will be.

To RickyT23: I admire your spirit [and your awesome maps], but you will find you have much more wisdom once you have reached puberty. k thx bye ;-) 
 
I'm all about positive thinking, to be honest. I think you DO have to avoid feeling sorry for yourself and do whatever you can to hold things together. And I think the majority of people DO that.

What I take issue with is the casual dismissal of the hardship someone is going through because those people over there are suffering more. That's a cop out that frees you from needing to help the person in front of you who is down on their luck. 
Willem 
This is not a good debating tactic. Because those people over there are suffering worse, that means that the people over there aren't and shouldn't complain and we shouldn't empathize? That's ridiculous.

I was not looking particularly for sympathy from other people (but I have to admit it is always cool to see people understand your point of view and what is you feeling regarding this particular experience...) I clearly know there are people that have even worst problems than mine. I am quite lucky to live in a very well developped country, with a lot of social helps. Also, I think that since you didn't experiment such "use case", you cannot state about what I can feel there. I personnaly gave 5 years of my life to a company that now is flushing me off like a shit in the toilet.... and some others have spent more than 10 years in this company, you can imagine what is their state of mind :(

What I would like you to understand, is that my company is behaving like bastards, also because it is claiming to develop business in Europe (and France particularly), it is claiming they are treating well their employees, etc.. etc... Why advertising that much good messages when the reality is the opposite ? just to hide the bad things.. and keep their face "clean"...
Small example: for any entity shutdown, there are legal procedures to follow, legal process to put in place: even this is not correctly done by the company, an they are breaking the french law today, just because they don't care about us any more, and maybe they think they are following strictly the law, but it is actually not the case...
Another example, just after the CEO announced the shutdown, he required us to continue to do "business as usual", and to not communicate to the customers about the situation as it is only a "project".. while everybody knows what will be the outcome.. wtf ? They want to fire us, and they would like us to continue to work for them to do money ? do you really think it is serious or fair ? I'm very angry about this kind of behaviour because I think it is a complete lack of respect, thinking we are stupid enough to not understand the situation.. come on... we are all engineers, we are not stupid... though...

Wipro is like others big companies: it is only looking for immediate profit, (the company have done billions dollars benefits after tax in 2008). I understand there are some business considerations to take, that a company can decide to stop an activity because it is not profitable, I have no problem with that. My problem is what will come next, I mean regarding my "micro-economy"? Employement situation in France is not that good / flexible as in the US.

You know: I'm not one of these guy that uses the system because too lazy to make the effort by himself. I am not waiting for somebody else to find a job for me: I'm already looking for a new job, and I already have some contacts here and there.. but who knows what will happen ?

Also the fact I am in this situation today shows that nobody is under cover from loosing his job... All of my colleague were thinking we were not in this mod... unfortunately we were wrong... Keep that in mind: statistically, each worker will have to experiment at least one "restructurating plan" with mass-layoff as outcome in his woring life... bad news, anybody can be the next one :P

I sincerely hope it will not happen to any of you... 
 
No, JPL, don't get me wrong ... I'm not blaming you or doing anything negative at all. I'm annoyed with the people who put down other people's suffering on the basis that the people over there are suffering more. Bad luck is bad luck, and it sucks when anyone has to go through it. 
I Agree With Willem 
although sometimes it can help put things in perspective if you compare yourself to others (who are worse off). I kind of understand what Baker is trying to say, but I too don't like the way he's putting it. Suffering is suffering, because if you are affected, you look at what you have lost, and not what others have never had. But I think it's good to take matters in your own hand and try and turn things around - if you can. Not everyone is able to do this, for various reasons, and I think it's condescending if you look down on those who don't have the ability to change, just because you could. 
OK 
I apologize if you've been hurted ;) and I agree with you as I know there are always somebody in a worst situation than your...

And about changing the situation, I think some of my colleague already decided to completely change of job, meaning they will not go back to microelectronics company any more... even if they have to sell hoover.... though...

I am not really worry yet, as I have different options, while nothing is really clear as of today... 
Baker 
It's very easy to have your point of view, but that's formed on where you are. Things will be much rougher elsewhere - and posts here are global. So alot of what you said above was pretty offensive. 
What Concerns Me Is That The Real Shit Hasn't Hit The Fan Yet 
well, we shall see.

Yes, it's true to some extent that karma is biting people in the ass for living beyond their means on credit. Here in the US at least, I don't know the situation elsewhere.

But if you want to point fingers, look beyond the actions of individuals and see the disgusting corporate greed for profit at all costs. Currency trading and stock market speculation created a huge bubble in the economy, and well, all bubbles burst sooner or later. And what does our gov't do? Reward the thieves to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. So we the people get shafted twice: first by watching our savings shrivel to a fraction of what they were, and again through the debt we'll likely be saddled with for decades, if not generations. And cutting back social services to pay for it.

The next hammer to fall is the implosion of the value of the dollar; let's all hope that doesn't happen, or things will get really interesting/exciting/fucked. 
 
look beyond the actions of individuals and see the disgusting corporate greed for profit at all costs.

but if I look beyond the corporations I come back to the greed of the individual. 
Eventually You Have To Pay The Bill. 
Again, all my comments are constrained to my view of what has happened in the USA ...

In the USA, the economy from 2000 to 2008 was fueled largely by:

1. mortgage refinancing (= borrow and spend!)
2. corporate growth via outsourcing
3. Government spending growth (Iraq; prescriptions; dept of homeland security = $250 billion/year more spending)
4. Consumer debt (credit cards, etc.)

So essentially consumers were borrowing and then purchasing electronics from Asia (mostly China) while financing the spending via foreign creditors.

Then that model went bust in the USA.

The credit is gone; the jobs are gone (outsourcing + NAFTA); there is no chance of manufacturing growth in the USA (due to NAFTA it is always cheaper to build in Mexico).

So the way in life in the USA was borrow and spend. Now there is no credit and few things are made here (we have the 5th worst import/export ratio in the world; we make very few things to sell to other countries).

All of that is over now.

It's going to take a long time for the US economy to rebound because it must first achieve net cashflow.

Which is exactly what can't happen here because there is no export parity and we have it set up so it is virtually impossible. 
As A German I Can Say 
having a good export ratio doesn't really seem to help anyone in the lower/middle class 
Hmm 
having a good export ratio doesn't really seem to help anyone in the lower/middle class

bar revolution little does 
Hitler Try To Dismiss Employees 
This small video remake has been made by one of my collegue... It is "reflecting" what happened during the last week....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INhjz8bG01E

Awesome job :P

PS: Any relation with my company, or my top management is completely undesired :) 
Aw Come On 
Hitler downfall videos are like totally 2008, man. Look here, there's even meta-vids now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb8RkIpCWSo 
The Fun... 
... stands in the fact that it clearly describes what happened these last two days... (traffic jam, airport welcome, etc...)

As example, we have welcome our CEO at the airport.. hence 2 small sentences said by Hitler: "I was alone when you were having a drink at the hotel" and also the "where were you when they were massacring me ?"
Other example, the fake job proposal is true, etc.. etc..

Well, actually, it is extremely fun for us.. at least :P 
 
Yo dawg I heard you like being angry so I put Hitler in yo Hitler so you could be angry while being angry. 
Angry Are We ? 
Yes we can :) 
On The Other Hand 
Der Untergang is still an excellent movie and deserves a second viewing. 
Thieves 
Some more info I learnt today: Wipro has picked 12Meuros of financial governmental help. 5.2Meuros have been paid earlier (on Wipro's request) just announcing the decision to shutdown the activity in France... Take the money and run...
And Wipro still dare to claim about their "ethical behavior"... :( 
Ethical Behaviour 
Did the mention of ethical behavior at any point mention whether it was referring to the shareholders or the employees? 
Jago 
Company ethic refers to shareholders, and the employees... and actually shareholders do not have any ethic at all... IMHO... 
Also... 
... if you want the employees to apply such value, the management (and the more the shareholders) should show us the example, and be even more ethically irreproachable :P 
Government Subsidy 
If Wipro took financial aid from the government, and used that to screw over employees, I doubt the funds were intended to be used that way. 
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