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Left 4 Dead 2
Most forums threads on this are pointless flame shit.

Not that I'm not expecting that here, but it'd be nice to hear some opinions anyway.

I'm enjoying the demo quite a bit - despite the shortness. The variety in just about everything is refreshing, as is killing a witch with a guitar to the back of the head.

My general impressions:

Tier 1 weapons are pretty lame, but they always were. At least now they feel more unique and suited to particular purposes.

Tier 2 weapons are great, without exception. The Spas auto shot is a laugh, even though it doesn't feel as powerful as the L4D1 version.

The changes to throwable weapons are pretty good overall - the pipebomb having a shorter range and the bilebomb outperforming it in the 'horde summoner' category being a decent modification.

Melee is dangerously fun - brawling typically gets you shot up by your team-mates. Kind of dissapointing that it doesn't seem possible to time a 'perfect strike' ie. 'Dead Stop' on a Charger. The big problem with the melee is the camera. Despite the HUD warning it's very easy (thanks to the blood all over the screen) to not know where your attacker is. It should be third person cam I feel.

The Jockey is great, his supposed ability to leap from survivor to survivor will cause havoc in versus.

The Spitter seems more at home in the enclosed areas of L4D1, but its only a map and a half in the demo, so we'll see. She also has the potential to be very nasty in Versus.

The wandering witch is ok I spose. Really I'd have liked to see a completely new non-playable, whilst keeping the original witch. Will be interesting to see if day/night affects how the witches behave.

The Charger is great - I wouldn't change anything, except maybe how light the ragdoll seems when he's killed. He often floats towards the team when killed in mid charge.

The various reskins to the original SI are businesslike. It'd be nice to see some proper reskins as well though, not just modifications /re-imaginings of the original meshes. Might cause some confusion but I doubt it - they each move in a very specific way.

The new health systems are generally welcome, although defib seems a bit pointless. The Adrenaline is much more tactical than the pills and very useful for the new style crescendo event.

AI Director2 seems pretty functional, although the demo maps don't seem to show it's ability to mix stuff up so much, although we have ended up wandering around in circles (in a good/terrifying way) a couple of times.

[Edited cos most people are playing the full now]
 
Well my experience with the demo has been largely unhealthy.

I preordered, and so I had access to the early demo.

I took a half day off work to get home around 3:00pm to play the demo, because surely Valve would release the demo by then. Well they didn't, and when I went to sleep the official release time was "1:00 am CST" so I figured I'd wake up an hour early and get some time in with it.

Well they changed the time again to like 3:00 pm CST, so it would have to wait til after work.

Then they changed it to like 8:00 pm once I got home.

So eventually I get to play it, but the game is unplayable because of the uh, I forget which option it is, but Dual Processing or whichever is turned on and it destroys my performance.

But at the time I thought rebooting may work, and it turned into this huge thing where my compressed air nozzle got caught against something while trying to clean my case out with it and it got stuck behind the case fan, but hey I found my mechanical pencil that I lost months ago resting snugly on my video card, so I guess in the long run it helped.

So anyway it's still unplayable and I give up. Only later do I find by disabling that option that it becomes playable, but unfortunately now L4D2 demo frequently corrupts my graphics and I'm forced to reboot like 5 minutes into the demo. I've beaten it once (in single player) without having to reboot because of this graphics issue, and it does it consistently.

I am not pleased. 
Yeah 
4 delays in total, all so we can betatest for them, for free :P

But I wanted to discuss more about the gameplay since there's plenty of complaining to read elsewhere.

There's been quite a few updates to the demo and Steam, pertaining to the demo, over the past couple of days though - maybe your issues have been resolved. 
This Is Interesting 
 
I saw that over on the forums, looks pretty neat - I saw a video of a charger making a double kill, so I guess it'll be weakened some.

Internally the game is wide open - in L4D1 you could play Verus via the console for the two campaigns that didn't have it. Just screwed up a handful of sphere maps.

I'm wondering if the backwards compatability feature that may or may not be included is possible now, before its released.

Copy and paste the maps and a command from the console. Maybe LoadMap. 
Balancing Changes 
I do like the changes to tier 1 compared to the original. They've done something I always thought would make sense in l4d1, which is to make the sub-machine gun the weapon with the lasting supply of ammo. In the original the shotgun is much better in all combat bar vs a tank, but is also takes much longer to run out of ammo. Now you can't just use the shotgun throughout the first map, you have to make use of pistols too.

Making melee weapons replace the pistol slot seems like the best way to balance carrying one, much better than the rumour that you had to carry them like physics objects and drop them to draw a gun. Personally I love my pistols too much, especially now there's a magnum to consider, so I don't think I'll get much use out of them. Still, my opinion might change as I play more.

On backwards compatibility: I heard that the bsp format has changed between the games, which would mean playing old maps might take some work... 
I Like 
Game looks promising, but to me it's really impossible to judge without proper versus, cause that's always been where the game really shines. 
Apparantly 
Versus was the first game mode.

Problem with versus is you need to know the maps to play as infected - it puts alot of people off since whoever knows the map better wins.

Try

http://www.l4dmaps.com/

For L4D1 maps, if you haven't already. Coal'd Blood is great, Death Aboard quite good but could be better on level design, Death row is good, Night Terror is stupidly difficult, but has some nice themes (like Moria) Suicide Blitz is well made, but the rescue map is stupidly simple.

I tended to forget the crappy ones. Want to play the mushroom kingdom map though.

Melee weapons are great against hordes.

BSP remains the same AFAIK, I think what changes is the shader format. Stuff that gets broke appears as shiny silver - the sphere mapping.

Given the renderer change I'd guess a shader change is probably a given. But haven't done enough with source to know how flexible its shaders are. 
L4d2 Demo 
Just got around to playing it, just in single player mind, mainly so I could just take a leisurely stroll around and see what is new and different.

Was pleasantly surprised! The guns all feel great to use, especially the new magnum pistol. Melee weapons are great fun, and I couldn't help but burst into laughter as I looked back into a room and saw Coach with his trusty frying pan standing square in a doorway giving every last zombie a good battering.

Didn't really try any of the new pickups, but the boomer bile could be interesting. I guess whatever you throw it at get swarmed with zombies?

As for performance, I would say it runs at the same pace as L4D1 does on my ageing rig, which is great considering it looks 2 times as good!

Not to sure about the new infected yet, I guess it will take time to get to know and love them, the spitter seems incredibly weak, 1 or 2 shots and she dies! The Jockey is hilarious ("hey, I saw one of those little bastards!"). The Charger does what it says on the tin, but again it dies quite quickly!

Overall, I really like the game and will probably pick it up when it comes down in price. 
BileBomb 
That's it pretty much, but don't think it'll help against a tank - he just smashes the commons aside. The witch as well just charges straight through them to whoever threw the thing.

I find its best just to throw it at the floor. Think of it as a L4D1 Pipe Bomb that doesn't explode.

Also, it seems like the witch can now change targets, though I'm not sure what the trigger condition is, maybe before she's hit anyone. 
OK I Had A Blurt At L4D2 Last Night 
The demo obviously.
Enjoyed it but I kept getting what I thought was terrible lag all the way through. It would play fine for 30 seconds and then freeze for 6-7 seconds continuously.
So I played through the level with three random people, which was fun despite the terrible problem.
On exiting I found that Windows Firewall had been blocking it the whole time (grrrrRRRRR!!!!!)
So I then clicked on the "unblock" button.
Havent tried again yet..... 
So 
Is the demo public now or did you all pre-order? 
 
RickyT23 that is caused by Multicore Rendering (I believe.)

Go to video options -> advanced -> multicore rendering -> disabled.

BUT BE WARNED! There's a bug (or a feature) in the L4D2 demo that will TURN IT BACK ON EVERY TIME A LEVEL LOADS. So you will have to turn it off every time. 
New Gameplay Elements Seem Nice. 
I'm just a little disappointed the demo is so short. Could have been the entire campaign minus the finale... 
Ijed 
its unlocked for everyone now. I guess I have a crazy preconception that demos are for trialling the game before you buy =)

I should tell valve, as there might be others who feel the same way? 
Move To Other Pc Games 
please. 
Other Pc Games Thread? 
Yep.

It's a big kick in the FJ's when you dupe yourself into pre-ordering. And the second kick is when a week or so into sales they have a 50% off weekend. 
Although 
If I play TF2 I get to wear a hat...

...doesn't seem like what I was paying for.

Ok, now I'm complaining. 
Hmm 
50% off weekend? 
50% Off Weekend... 
Don't expect that any time soon really, but yeah knowing valve it will come eventually. 
L4D2 Interivews 
http://www.l4d.com/blog/post.php?id=3069

The last interview is with Dario Casali, you know, the old q mapper. :) 
Thanks For The Tip Zwiffle 
yeah that solved the problem! So L4D2 is fun, but the demo seemed a little short to me. 
Cunts. 
Thanks for all going and playing this while I'm stuck on a mate's fucking dongle @ 50kpbs because Virgin media are fucking useless cunts despite it being 2009 and well into the era of super-fast IT etc etc it still takes them 2 cunting weeks to get a phoneline installed and a further cunting week to get my fucking broadband set-up. CUNTS. 
Shambler 
You're taking it pretty well, if I were you I'd be raging up! 
BTW 
There's a patch that removes the awesome in about 24 hours. 
Hmm 
At least you can play it. Haven't tried the demo yet (only just got around to buying Machinarium), but I have a feeling it'll make my PC cough, stutter and finally collapse in a cloud of burning plastic :( 
It's Still 
HL2 tech - if you can play 1 you can play 2 I reckon. 
Multicore Rendering 
Zwiffle you can add a line with
mat_queue_mode 0
to your autoexec.cfg (create if not exists) in
steamapps\common\left 4 dead 2 demo\left4dead2\cfg and you won't have to toggle multi-core rendering every game launch. 
Shambler Quote Of The Year 
"I'm stuck on a mate's fucking dongle" 
I Played It. 
It's good. Looks good, runs smooth, more varied gameplay, is basically L4D+. That's enough for me 
Reminds Me 
I tried that mat_queue_mode "1" in the autoexec.cfg but it didn't work. I did find out that my graphics corrupting problem seemed to be related to turning multicore rendering off though. Whether that's just because turning it off midgame fucks it up or just because the game can't run without mcr I can't say. MCR stills freezes my game constantly for 5-6 seconds at a time.

Still bitter about it. 
Zwiffle 
Try playing around with these. I don't know what -1 does for mat_queue_mode, can't remember. I commented these all out when they added the multicore rendering option in the menu. I can't figure out if you want this shit on or off, but setting it to 0 will disable each feature obviously. Not sure if these commands even still exist, but worth a shot.

mat_queue_mode -1
r_threaded_renderables 1
r_threaded_particles 1
r_threaded_client_shadow_manager 1
cl_threaded_bone_setup 1
cl_threaded_client_leaf_system 1 
 
Well L4D2 came out. I still had the problem. So my dad found a thread where they say the new NVidia beta drivers solve the problem (which they do, and the conveniently came out on November 17th!) So problem solved.

Thanks for the help anyway Fribz! 
The Game Came Out? 
 
Came out in America.

USA!
USA!
USA! 
Came Out Everywhere... 
Except the UK, hah! That's you get for being so... british.

BTW, the game fucking rocks. :D 
And 
In South America.

Bile Bomb a tank, A ride denied and Kill a spitter before she spits, so far.

Completed the first campaign (in bits) so far. 
 
Is it just me or are maps pretty long. Just as I was about to complain about the length of the L4D custom campaigns... They are noticably harder too. Or the bot AI is just worse. The melee weapons work surprisingly well, though - pretty fun slashing through a horde in close combat.
There are still a few glitches here and there, monster clipping for example, but this will surely get sorted out sooner or later.
We should definitely have some func_versus games soon. 
Hm 
I think the bots are better overall. When they screw up it's magnified though - like watching you struggle at their feet trapped by a smoker.

The old school Specials are tougher it seems - doing more damage and being more resilient, although the tank is pretty much a pushover in terms of health.

The levels are much longer, yeah. 
 
i don't understand how a game that's being sold over the internet can be released at different times around the world. it just seems in opposition to the whole point of the internet. 
Necros 
Because big retailers are imposing dates.

Yeah L4D2 rocks! Love it! The versus is great as always, have yet to try scavenger. 
I Thought 
It was a global release date as well. 
 
I wonder if I want to play the game more or map for it more. I can't choose! I want to do both at the same time! 
 
just a question from someone who doesn't play this game, if you're mapping for l4d/2, do you ever actually place monsters in the map? or are you just specifying spawn points? as i understand it, the game dynamically spawns in monsters depending on player stats are previous performance? 
 
You don't place monsters but you can specify areas where they can exist, where they do certain things, etc 
 
that sounds pretty cool, i wonder if it would be possible to adapt it for quake in some way. have an 'ai' spawn monsters in and such. 
We've Got 
Spawn randomisation courtesy of Lardarse. We set up spawn groups and a series of positions - if you play the previous RMQ demo more than once you'll notice that the monsters change position, albiet subtley. 
 
"that sounds pretty cool, i wonder if it would be possible to adapt it for quake in some way. have an 'ai' spawn monsters in and such."

I've been tossing it around in my head too. It might be an extension of Qonquer, really. Place spawn points in the level, denote which monsters can spawn there (due to size restrictions or whatever) and let some sort of control program spawn the monsters keeping an eye on difficulty increases and time passing and such. 
Awesome 
So Steam cloud disconnects whilst I'm playing and resets all my achievements to 0. 
Oh And 
And that's the second time it's happened. Just this time I'd actually completed around ten of them. 
 
Yeah other people seem to get the same problem. I've checked on the steam forums for my own problems and ran across that achievement error thing.

Also, I thought my graphical corruption problem was solved with the nvidia beta drivers but they just solve the multicore rendering problem, the graphical corruption just takes longer to happen (like 20-40 minutes and then WHAM everything goes to shit.)

So I am still unable to play L4D2. I am upset. 
 
Why don't you simply backup your Steam folder from now on? 
Uh 
spirit, do you know how big the steam folder is? 
Wait 
They came back - but I couldn't see them by looking at Steam from another machine.

This is like when I tried the Gnome achievement in HL2 - carried the little fucker through the whole game (the car chase with zero friction was alot of 'fun') stuck him in the rocket and then . . . nothing. No little rocket man.

Could have gone back to a previous save, but I'd been through enough by that time. 
Sorry To Hear It Zwiffle 
A patch any day, most likely. Not alot of consolation, I know. 
Necros 
Sorry, inappropiate attempt on a "your data does not belong to you" bash. 
Oh Heh 
whoops :P 
Hard Rain 
Is the best reuse of maps I've seen.

FYI a chainsaw makes mincemeat out of a tank. 
Yeah... 
The weather in Hard Rain is amazing! Such great atmosphere.
I love in map 4, how you're running from house to house to stay out of the open and rain, when you get inside the houses they really nailed the feeling of being in out of the rain, with the storm still going strong outside.

I tried some team scavenge last night, and it's really fun, a nice change from versus, and quicker to play.

Love this game. 
Although 
The bridge (final rescue) map of the parish is a poor piece of mapping in comparison to the other levels. There's two points where you don't know where to go at all - and this is on a bridge map thats a simple GoTo A-B.

Very frustrating, so here's some spoilers:

When the road is on a raised level you need to repeatedly jump up the side of the truck, onto the bonnet then roof. When it splits, take the off ramp. 
Ijed 
Hmm, that didn't bother me at all? Seemed pretty logical where I was supposed to go, I thought the bridge was actually quite interesting for what is a basically a straight line. 
Just Me Then 
But I ended up running in circles various times - and getting thrown off twice by Chargers didn't help.

The achivements bug won't go away - I've gotten the stronger than moustachio one three times now.

Lost Violence in Silence, faster than Moustachio (twice) and some agregates like the defib one. 
Yeah... 
The first one suffered alot from achievement resets too during the first weeks, seems to be related to server troubles etc. 
Very Good Game Though 
The closest the industry can come to mixing AAA and Creative, it seems.

Will be interesting to see what the future holds for it in terms of third party content.

And this type next year - L4D3!

Now going to combine two great hobbies - drinking and playing L4D2 in a Lan. 
Backups 
spirit, do you know how big the steam folder is?

What does it matter? Mine is 60gb and I backup my entire games folder (onto a NAS) every now and then (which is 77gb). I could see how the archiving part could become an annoyance once you go above 300gb if you have a slow CPU though. If you don't cant afford or don't want to get a cheap NAS, just use an external HD? You do have SOME sort of a backup routine right? 
I Use 
The internet. 
I Really Rather Like This Game. 
I think, like L4D, they've got it spot on, it just WORKS. No bullshit, no messing around, no stupidly obvious flaws or niggles that in the way of a good experience. You round up some mates, hop on a server, and shoot zombies. All the challenge comes from fighting well and working together in the game, not dealing with any extraneous issues. It's how gaming should be. 
Only Niggle: 
You refusing to give Versus a try. 
It's A Fucking Excellent Piece Of Game Design 
They just give the players the building blocks for being able to play which slot together in different ways each time.

The only weak part for me is Swamp Fever - repetative visually and without any of the new creshendo events. 
A Case Of Swamp Fever 
On our first run through Swamp Fever, our team seemed to wordless conclude that the bridge lowering crescendo was actually a gauntlet. So we all began running it and consequently took a great deal of damage from it. But yeah, apart from a nice looking finale area there isn't so much going for it in coop - I'm just hoping vs makes it more exciting to play. 
Yeah 
We assumed the same with the crashed airplane and torn to shreds.

But there's no need to move - just stay where you are and melee.

It's odd since by stretching realism a bit there's plenty of terrain setups I can think of in a swamp - up in the trees, wading through mossy caves, crossing a quagmire (some bits are 'fall'), gassing up the boat . . . 
Hmm 
Hehe I guess here is a case where being more informed than a "regular gamer" about left 4 dead 2's design has actually caused harm :)

our team seemed to wordless conclude that the bridge lowering crescendo was actually a gauntlet

One of the best parts about all of valves games for me is that you never need to assume anything, if something is important to the progress in the game it is always given to you in a way that you will understand. All the gauntlet style events in l4d2 are clearly marked by either avatar chatter or environmental clues, or even blatant game ui hints in some cases. You are never really left scratching your head as to what you are meant to be doing.

Now, I don't know about you lot, but whenever I see a jockey jump one of the survivors I cant help but burst into tears of laughter, I find the whole spectacle hilarious I cant put my finger on why.

its even worse if I am controlling a jockey in vs mode, I usually start laughing before I even jump at someone because I know whats about to happen...

I'm fucked in the head, right? 
I Love This Game! 
Yeah Swamp Fever is the weakest campaign for me too, even though it has it's nice bits.

About the bridge lowering crescendo event, in VS it's best to run through it anyways. If you stay in one of the rooms during the event, you're giving the special infected lots of time to deal damage. 
Swamp Fever. 
I really like it, great atmosphere. Still didn't complete the end despite about a billion goes. 
Jockeys 
Are funny little fuckers - it'd have preferred it if their gibbering sounds had more laughter in there, they sound (and look) pretty much like imps.

For example their attack loops should be only laughter. SO they're doing their hyena / monkey laughing while they steer you into fire / spit / off a ledge. 
Things I Have Noticed. 
A Boomer already waiting in the safe room in Hotel.

What looked very much like two tanks fighting each other in Plantation (one was biled). At any rather that was two tanks at once, out of a total of 4 - on Normal skill!

A Charger and then something else knocking Ellis and Rochell both into the water and thus dead by the river raft in Swamp 1.

Something to do with an axe and a special Infected, but I forget what. Might have been axing a Jockey in mid-leap. 
 
Specials tend to be more human (sneaky) now, but also just as retarded as you'd expect a bot to be. Often they're in the safe room attacking the invincible door when you arrive. Suppose its nice to have a hobby.

Haven't played versus yet, but the charger promises to be one of the most frustrating, just because theres the possiblity of chucking people into the water - but odds on you'll never get close enough.

It's impossibe to hit a Jockey in mid leap with melee, even shove. Hunter as well - all you can do is Shambler dance out of range then move back in with a shove and then knock the undead out of em. 
Chargeeeeeeeeeeee 
I played a game of versus tonight with some dear friends, and on the first level of Dead Centre we had not one, but two people charged off the edge of the building as we climbed around fires. You'd think the second person would have learnt... 
Charger 
Yes it's quite easy to get some instant-kill going with the charger if you know what you're doing. On the first map of the Parish (the one from the demo), at the very start, you can run up to them as they turn off the passageway, and charge one or 2 guys straight into the water.
Same thing on the rollercoaster part of Dark Carnival, not to mention the Parish final on the bridge...

I'm not sure if this is necessarily a bad thing, people should know about it... At least they fixed the charger bug today where it could get a survivor stuck in the scenery. 
Would Not Be Surprised 
if they change the charger so it only hits a survivor enough that they need to be helped up off the edge. Even this is still highly beneficial once you have the other 3 special infected jump into the fray.

Another great spot to insta-kill though is top floor of the sugar refinery in hard rain as survivors are either waiting for the elevator , or just getting off it.

It's one of those ways to die that only happens once though, then you learn to expect it. 
Would Not Be Surprised 
if they change the charger so it only hits a survivor enough that they need to be helped up off the edge. Even this is still highly beneficial once you have the other 3 special infected jump into the fray.

Another great spot to insta-kill though is top floor of the sugar refinery in hard rain as survivors are either waiting for the elevator , or just getting off it.

It's one of those ways to die that only happens once though, then you learn to expect it. 
Well... 
...sort of finished the game last night. I say sort of because I didn't actually make it to the chopper alive (got carried away killing things) but Negke did so the survivors escaped if not survived ;). All very cool stuff, I like the last episode...

Shouts out to:

Bal - for being patient and rescuing me a lot.
Biff - for being a real life Ellis when he's on the mike.
czg - for being surprisingly generous in coop and not setting tooooo many car alarms off.
Daz
negke
Rebb - for some good survival skillz.

Anyone else I played with and forgot.

More soon eh! 
Now... 
Expert! :D 
 
I tried expert on Swamp Fever the other day with some friends. We barely got past that little river pulley before getting murdered all 5 times. Tough shit. 
Fun Game Yesterday 
I wonder who's the bigger threat on expert though, the infected or Shambler... 
Oi! 
My friendly fire isn't malicious, it's well-intentioned, I'm trying to cover you guys :S 
Can I Join The Func_ Steam Group? 
I would love to take part in some left 4 dead 2! My steamid is ewasylishen at gmail.com 
Get On #tf 
Quite a few people lurking on there and up for a game... 
They Robbed Me 
Of Little Rocket Man, but now I have their Guardin Gnome achievement.

Fuck yeah. 
Shambler 
'I was trying to help!'

What's the road to hell paved with again?

Shamb's team mates brought down by FF? 
Hey 
It provides a nice springy surface to stroll along... 
Smooth As Well 
All the different sized special infected would be too lumpy.

I should join a game but can never promise when I'll be able to connect for a full campaign cycle. 
Try Scavenge Then 
It's kind of like a mini-Versus. A 5-round match usually takes no longer than 30 minutes. 
Expert 
Haven't tried it with a proper team yet. It's pretty tough as, for example, a single blow from a common infected already costs you 20 health. Still, I was able to get through the first two maps of Dead Center without larger problems in SP. So anyone here care for a try? 
 
I played with some friends on Swamp Fever on expert. We never beat the level, we could barely cross the river. TOO HARD! 
But 
I tend to connect, start a game, then have to go change a nappy.

Never liked Expert to be honest - too frustrating to keep retrying.

Usually play on advanced, which seems to be a decent balence between danger and fun. A tank can still finish a good team if it gets lucky, on normal they're a joke. 
Woo. 
Cool 
But they better not charge for it.

Re: expert - seeing how failed miserably on advanced yesterday, I suppose more a little more practicing is due. 
Err Words 
I guess expert probably requires at least two Bals per team. I must have been lucky with the bots that day ("without larger problems" isn't right - I was close to death a couple of times, and if it wasn't for the bots crazy aim and lots of dumb luck, I wouldn't have made it half the way). 
Hmm 
Just read the comments on that shack article.

Apparently white people are more 'loveable' than blacks... 
Hmm 
I just want Zoey back. The Zoey skin mod was awesome. I know I wont feel the same way about Rochelle.

People of her consistency are not attractive IMO.


I know, I know. Never read internet comments, but god dyamn 
Meh 
The writing for both characters was pretty insipid. Not the actresses' fault, more the nerd writing the scripts could portray a female character well and/or in a form understandable to others.

And bear in mind that the others are videogame playing nerds (admit it).

I found it easier to relate to Zoey because her skin colour matches my own, Rochelle doesn't act like (white invented) black female stereotypes so I'm kind of lost. But Ellis as well is a cardboard cutout.

It's not easy to write scripts for interactive stuff, I know from experience. Nick works because he's just making comments to himself. Coach is very well acted - I'd be surprised if the actor had mandated changes to his own script, rambling on about food etc. And that fucking laugh on finishing a level makes me smile.

In summary, seeing as I've managed to confuse myself - asking some pimply dork to relate to a female game character who doesn't have big tits will leave him confused. Asking him to do so when she's black will scare the shit out of him. The launguage doesn't have a denominator for 'him that will die alone in around 60 years'.

Ten quid his desktop image is Zoe's head photoshopped onto some porn. 
Hmmm. 
I quite like Zoey. Just more my type.

That add-on sounds cool :) 
Interesting Yeah 
But a bit pandering. Will be intersting to see the Big Valve Plan though.

According to the Left4Dead Wiki Zoey and Franics were supposed to be flirting in the first game, but it got taken out because it was distracting.

Since the games are supposed to be based off of the films and they're for an adult audiance it'd be nice for the characters to have a bit more humanity.

Like having Coach or Ellis recognise more than just the places, or talk about their dead families. 
Rochelle 
With Rochelle, my impression is that they were trying so hard to avoid any gender or racial stereotypes with her, that she came away with very little definition at all. I'm not gonna claim that I can back that up with some evidence from an interview or anything though. It's just the vibe I get.

Coach is played by an actor from that show which gets all the love in the Film Thread - "The Wire" (he played Cutty, for those who know it). He certainly got his share of good lines. I particularly liked him reading a sign in the fairground: "You must be this tall to ride. Sorry Ellis, it's been real man..." 
Rochelle. 
I agree with Preach's assessment. 
Rochelle 
Two words: Hoop earrings.

Is that not enough of a gender and racial stereotype for you people? 
 
Actually yeah come to think of it, who would wear hoop earrings during a zombie apocalypse? WHO?? 
Like 
The black guy who's name I can't remember from the previous having his white shirt buttoned up to the collar and wearing his immaculate red tie. 
Fuck 
He's called Louis. Which happens to be my name :P 
 
I assumed that these were the clothes they happened to be wearing on the day that the zombie apocalypse started. And they haven't had a chance to change their clothes. 
 
That was sort of my thought as well. Fashion being the last thing on their minds at the moment... 
 
It's exactly NOT fashion that should be on their minds during a zombie apocalypse, but instead survival. Wearing a necktie and hoop earrings, or really loose clothing at all (Ellis strap on those overalls!) is a no-no during a zombie apocalypse. It's nothing to do with style but instead COMMON SENSE (as much common sense as you can have, you know, regarding a zombie apocalypse.) 
 
hey man, not everyone's read the zombie survival guide. �_� 
 
With all the zombies around, taking those things off is the last thing on their minds.
Just like you might have shown up in your Hello Kitty pajamas but no one would blame you as long as you kept shooting. 
 
Zwiffle

No no, the point is that this is what they were wearing when the zombies showed up. They didn't choose to dress like that. 
Heh 
Really I think people read too much into this sort of stuff, I mean WOAH, Rochelle wears earrings? HOLY FUCK GUYS EARRINGS.

So pretend you are a woman for a minute, your walking down the street and suddenly 100 zombies run out at you, the 1st thing you are going to do is take off your earrings because they are not suitable for a zombie apocalypse?

It seems that people complain whenever characters in games resemble any sort of sterotype, so lets make all game characters have green skin and 2 heads and come from the planet zog? These people are human and come from Earth, so yeh they are going to resemble SOME SORT of sterotype.

/rant :P 
Hmm 
Yeh, that's fair enough Willem, but I think his point was that you'd at least take off the tie... 
A Better Point Being... 
Every second you're dicking around undoing a tie is more time that a zombie is trying to chew into your skull because you're not shooting the fucking thing.

Which is why I wear zombie-proof clothing in day to day life, just in case... 
Hmm 
And all that time sitting in safe rooms reloading/bandaging/changing weapons/etc they don't have time to take off the tie?

(I think we maybe play games too much, there's a certain inability to distinguish fact and fiction here... ;) 
Hello Kitty Pyjamas 
In a zombie Apocalyse - that's got to be a replacement skin. 
 
negke/Willem, you completely missed my point. I understood where you were coming from in the first place, that's there normal everyday clothing, but my point was this: How hard is it to take off a tie, take out your earrings, or button up your overalls in a safe room? How long will that take? 5 seconds? Nonentity got it right away...

DaZ - yeah, I just kind of said it initially as a joke but I guess people took it to be a real argument :) But hey, if it makes some discussion why not talk about it. 
 
"that's *not *their normal, everyday clothing..." I just woke up cut me some slack. 
 
I can't believe we're even talking about this to be honest. :) They're probably distracted with the whole, "there's 10,000 zombies trying to kill us" situation. Cheers! 
Zwiffle 
You're right that everybody probably would have take it off. But the point that, for example, Louis still wears his tie is to reinforce his role as a business man. This way it's more easily recognizable and supports the intented impression of 'four random characters from different ends of society' teaming up in an extreme sitation (people who don't have much in common and wouldn't have bothered with each other if it wasn't for the zombie killing thing). 
 
Well to steer this into a different direction, since everyone has made their points (and only mine were valid!) it would have been cool if Louis had a red pen in his shirt pocket that leaked, and someone telling him after a bloody fight that he has red on him.

Or maybe they did that, and I never noticed. 
Well If You're Gonna Die 
In a zombie apocalypse, you might as well do it in style :P 
Hmm 
Yeh, I get why they styled the characters like they did negke, and tbh I think it works well. Without the tie louis wouldn't be nearly as well stylised.

I just think some of us may have read this book one too many times (note, also shave your hair ;) 
 
I've never read the Zombie Survival Guide but I want to. What I was referring to was just common sense. Hence, my use of the term, common sense.

I would like it if they had Coach wear riot gear like the zombies. He does say something to the effect of "Those zombies are wearin' armor! I WANT ARMOR!"

Coach is a smart man. 
Hmm 
Read it.

Now.

Also World War Z (which is arguably a better tale, altho less practically useful...) 
 
Yeah I read World War Z and still want to read Zombie Survival Guide, and I actually recommended WWZ to bler, and then he forgot I recommended it to him and he recommended it to me, kinda silly.

Also, I wish I could talk about WWZ further beyond the book, but I can't. But I want to. 
LOL. 
Yes. Don't read the Morningstar Virus thingy book though (different author), it's gash. 
 
You could make the argument that as clothes are central to our constructed self-identity. Monks, soldiers, and prison inmates wear uniforms to weaken the power of their past/civilian identity. In a zombie apocalypse you would probably want to keep your clothes as way to maintain a connection to the past life and identity, rather than give yourself up fully to a new life as a savage and a survivor. 
 
You might want to, but that would seem to me to be hardcore denial. I don't see how that could help you survive a zombie apocalypse.

Now personally, I was never one for style, I just kind of wear video game clothes and whatever makes me feel comfortable and warm. I could imagine a zombie apocalypse doing more psychological harm to someone like Pope, who seems to thrive on trendy merchandise.

I just see going more utilitarian in a life-or-death scenario as the better, more logical option, instead of something (to paraphrase metlslime's post in an asshole-ish way) similar to "Ooh this isn't happening this isn't happening this isn't happening I'm going to listen to some Depeche Mode" ...

Wait a minute, maybe that explains everything about Rochelle. She's just in major denial. 
Well 
I always thought it'd make sense for Louis to have his tie tied around his arm. He'd want to look after it but in a pocket it'd get lost. All the running around would mean he'd at least loosen it. 
 
"You might want to, but that would seem to me to be hardcore denial. I don't see how that could help you survive a zombie apocalypse."

Mmm, there is an argument to be made there along the lines of the mental game is as important as anything else. Holding onto your humanity in a world of undead monsters would mean a lot in terms of motivation and keeping yourself going. 
 
Yeah, I don't think taking out some earrings or taking off your tie counts as losing your humanity. 
 
Never having been in a zombie apocalypse, I can't say for sure. 
What 
I thought you worked in a games studio? 
Posts 132 Onwards. 
Brilliant, good discussion guys :) 
Got A Hangover The Size Of That Glassman Map 
But the games yesterday were cool. First time I actually got through a finale on advanced. GG Biff, Preach and Pushplay (and ijed earlier). Always seems to be somewhat luck-based, dependend on where the items, especially ammo, spawn. At least as long as the necessary skills are still lacking.

Also played some L4D1 again. Could it be the score system is kind of strange? I got like some 2500 points as infected but only 100 or so as survivor - relation? 
Was Fun 
Until my ISP disconnected me - happened 2-3 times in about half an hour.

The ping wasn't helping us cross that bloody bridge though. 
Ijed Your Not Getting That Multicore Rendering Bug Are You? 
I dont get to play this game until 25th December - my fiance bought me it for �19.99 in a shop, but i got to wait for this one lol :D

But Im a good ally, i stay out of the obvious line of fire and use proper tactics etc - looking forwards to playing with some of you guys hopefully! 
Nah 
Was on wifi and my stepsister was using the PC - my whole internet connection bottomed out; everyone in the house was disconnected. Wasn't a problem with others using the line either since my machine opens 6 connections, using them in tandem.

I'm on dual core and never saw the multicore bug, although my laptop isn't good enough to actually see the rain in Hard Rain and run with a decent FPS. Should give it another try though, since theres an overheat issue. 
 
Interesting L4D1 campaign, looks pretty

http://www.ihatemountains.com/screenshots.php 
Custom Campaigns 
I played two custom campaigns once. Dead City - which I found too large and repetitive as you often pass through areas you've been in before and every other zombie encounter is a horde event - and Vienna Calling - which was pretty long too, but looked good. Haven't tried Dead before Dawn yet, even though it seems to be the top scorer so far (in terms of build quality).


Lol?: L4D in 2D: http://sites.google.com/site/ericdavidruth/game-left4dead 
And What About Preach? 
 
Think I Posted This Before, But 
http://www.l4dmaps.com/

Is the site you want.

Dead city is very repetitive, yeah, not recommended.

I would recommend Coal'd Blood, Death Row and Death Aboard, in that order.

Night Terror is an odditity and quite fun - haunted house, Tin-Tin and Lord of the Rings themes. Hard as a coffin nail though. 
Yeah, About That Map I Was Planning... 
So I spent about a week before christmas hacking up the l4d2 maps with a hex editor to see if I could create a scavenge map using the original l4d SDK. I went off for christmas and spent the time forming an idea for a map, so I could come back and be ahead of the curve making it.

Of course, on christmas eve, unbeknownst to me, they released the official SDK, so all that effort turned out to be a bit of a waste. What's more, I'm thinking of scrapping what I have with the map anyway.

The idea was to make the map initially cyclic, by having the generator on the roof, and the cans inside the bulding. There would be a fire escape on one side which allowed you to climb up, but the fire doors leading to the escape would be locked from the inside. So you'd have to drop down through broken ceilings to get to the cans in the building, but then to get back out you'd have to take the fire escape. Opening the doors from the inside means repeated trips to that floor can then take the short route down the fire escape and through that door.

It sounded like a nice plan, but there's one flaw. On that basis, you're going to end up spending a lot of game time on the fire escape. But actual combat on the fire escape is REALLY boring, particularly for the special infected who would be mostly useless. Unless you got rid of all the side railings, at which point it's going to be lethal for the survivors.

It doesn't mean I'm giving up on the cyclic route completely, but what I've made so far will go on the scrap heap. Perhaps a more conventional courtyard with three or four surrounding buildings, each with ground level "fire door" style entrances would work better. The first trip into each building requires you to navigate round and climb up a scaffold / take the unlocked back door / break and enter through a window. Then once inside you can open that building's door out into the courtyard, and subsequent trips to cans in that building can be quicker.

I also want to find out if going into overtime in scavenge mode triggers some kind of event you can hook into - it'd be really cool if all the lights the generator is powering cut out if the timer expires but you're still carrying a can, then come back on if you manage to fill it up during overtime. 
Last Thought 
One setup I was planning in the map was to make the first can / 2 cans potentially quick for the survivors if they were willing to take a gamble. The can would be found immediately on dropping down a hole, so it could be thrown right back up a level. If you did that and then tried to run back round via the fire escape, a spitter would probably destroy it before you returned.

Instead, if you sent one or two survivors down for it, and they tossed it up to the rest of the team, they could put it in the generator, then drop down to reunite the team. Of course, the risk is that while you're filling it up, it would be very easy for the infected to capitalise on the separation. Particularly given how the first attack always has good coordination - everyone is in ghost mode at once.

I'm trying to think how I could return that idea to this new plan for the map, now that the generator is starting in a courtyard and so presumably on the ground floor. Perhaps I could add a cellar or something, any suggestions accepted! 
From 
What you describe the first thing that occurs is to limit the time spent on ladders. A good (but time-consuming) way to do this would be to have the fire escapes either collapse while the players are on them, coming to lean on adjacent buildings, or have the other buildings do the same.

So you could have a suspnded motorway, partially collapses, leaning into the power station. Why it fell . . . boomer flatulence?

What I mean is limiting the power station sections - not because it's not a cool setting, but because it's very repetative and if you weren't having to put the players on ladders alot of the time it'd be in long horizontal corridors.

Another option might be to make it a hydroelectric dam, though you'd probably lose alot of the verticality. Unless they had to climb the thing - but that'd probably become an entire episode :)

Reading the second post properly, it's scavenge and I'm proposing at least a full map . . . freestylin level design. 
Spotted This Weekend... 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/defib.jpg

Didn't need to use it though, not enough zombies...

(P.S. Sorry for the cheeky quaketastic upload but it's only 150k and is kinda gaming...) 
Motherfucker Bullshit Cuntin Hell Fire 
Sorry I couldn't play. 
Hmm 
You can't swear particularly well either 
. . . 
I struggle along in the languages I have. The above would make more sense in a yorkshire accent. 
And 
Why aren't you on the server, gobshite? 
 
Yeah sorry ijed, sometimes these things are tough to work out okay. 
L4d Expert 
I'd like to beat a L4D campaign on expert at least once (yes, that is L4D1). Anyone care to help me? 
Hmmm. 
Could be, but am away for a bit soon. Maybe in Feb... 
Yeah 
I'd be up for helping with that. 
I'm So Ashamed 
We're Lazy 
 
Yeah... 
given the mapping slump i'm in at the moment, it's pretty depressing to see someone else plow through a level so efficiently.

On the other hand, I have found that professional mapping pretty much flows like this -- when you have a really short schedule, you generally go with your first good idea and start running with it rather than spending an extra week casting about for "something better." And after you polish it up, usually that first idea turns out to have been just fine. 
Yeah 
Sad but true, ideas are worth thin air, only done stuff counts. And since mapping is a process not a state even bad ideas can produce good maps from a competant mapper.

Negke -

I think the problem will always be there (one side having bad ping) playing across the equator.

They may have won numerically, but at least we didn't rage quit.

Playing L4D with someone who's deaf (Crissama) can be frustrating until you learn to work as a team.

Also, L4D2 takes ages to load on my work rig and I don't know why - the game before they reached the finale in Carnival and flipped the switch before I'd even entered playing as Infected. 
#160 
Woah fucking hell that looks cool.

Wasn't convinced at first as it looked like a fairly standard city scene with a bridge added, but with the dirty snow and water around, it looks great. 
 
ijed: np, I knew what I was in for. Aren't there really any dedicated servers around? Even if it's Brazil or something? That should work for you and lag less extreme for me/others.

Richard!!!!: Don't ragequit. Don't make more base maps. 
wha..... 
Yeah 
But they get pissy in the office if I use a dedicated - they want that >10 ping :P 
Beta Testing New Map 
If anyone is interested in helping beta test this 11-day "winter" map feel free to post here:
http://forums.l4dmaps.net/thread-1162-page-4.html

It looks pretty good and I'm sure after testing it could be a lot of fun to scavenge/survival on. 
#158, #159 
Let's get it on, then! 
Lol 
http://kotaku.com/5469905/left-4-dead-2s-the-passing-coming-march-followed-by-comic-more-l4d-dlc

New uncommon common are actually survivors who thought they became infected during the apocalypse and may drop items when they die. Reminds me of a story from World War Z. 
Uncommon Common 
... it seems illogical to call them that... :? 
The Passing 
Sounds lame - the name and idea. Like 'fill a level with witches!' or 'an area full of alarmed cars!' level design 101.

They didn't fail, but very weak concepts.

'What if both groups met? That'd be awesome!'

I know thats not the limit of Valve's creativity - are they fucking with us or not?

Wankers. 
 
I'm sure they're working on the Midnight Riders campaign and that's where all the good stuff is.

But really, there was a screen shot of a ton of zombies with tuxedos and dresses like they were at a wedding when the outbreak happened, which I thought was lol. 
Errrr. 
What's the problem?? It's more L4D2 and more zombies. That is a good thing.

I don;t think it's a weak idea either, it seems right to tie together L4D and L4D2, surely??

The levels full of witches and car alarms were cool, especially when I stopped setting the car alarms off.

P.S. 28 billion :D
http://kotaku.com/5470182/left-4-dead-2-body-count-is-in-the-billions 
What Shamb Said. 
I don't know what you're expecting from Valve, but I'm already very satisfied with what they are giving. 
Spose 
I'm moaning about them pandering to us. And the car lot seemed gimmick - it'dve been cool if the idea had been expanded into a complete sequence - not as long as the awesome hard rain, but a much larger area more like an impound rather than a generic bit of ground filled with props. 
And 
Why link them up? 
Yeah 
Looking forward to it. And new L4D1 stuff too? Awesome. 
 
The car alarm area couldn't be an entire campaign/level by itself. That would be too god damn annoying and would lose interest very quickly. It's perfectly fine as a small area you run through in a map, but would suck balls as a whole entire map. 
To Be Honest. 
It could have been more of a feature in the map, that map is pretty big and bad ass already, there's a lot to it. I like it tho. 
The Passing 
Due this week. (Valve time: probably Sunday)
Can't wait.


The City 17 campaign (episode one port) is a neat idea, but it doesn't really work very smoothly most of the time. The levels are recognizable even without the HL2 props (L4D2 ones instead), but they often feel a little bland. There's a lot of clippy stuff in some areas preventing the special infected from moving effectively or sometimes rendering them useless. Still, the progression/porting is done well. Okay for a one-time SP experience. 
 
Yeah City 17 was alright, but ultimately really bad if you consider that the 'author' just used stuff that was already there and modified it. I would have expected some better detail, fixed areas, etc, but perhaps he just wanted an exercise in l4d2 stuff.

The Passing sounds cool, and I'm wondering what the Mutations are (if you haven't seen, check out the l4d blog about the achievements.) 
Another Few Weeks 
Of 0 productivity coming up... 
Seems I Lost 
Interest in L4D2 much faster than the previous game. 
 
Seems Mutations are new game modes that will be rotated on a weekly basis. Interesting.

http://kotaku.com/5520780/left-4-dead-2s-the-passing-introduces-weekly-game-mutations 
The Passing (SPOILERS) 
Is excellent.

Golf Club:
Ok I spose, just a reskinned melee. has the additional achievement which amounts to 'use it for a whole level'.

M60:
The zombies don't stand a chance - rips them to pieces. Limited ammo like the grenade launcher or chainsaw.

Survivor Infected:
Not bad, just a high health zombie carrying goodies.

Infinite Stuff Box:
Just like HL2. Seems a bit daft tbh - a free chance to stock up on stuff.

Level One:
Very high quality, a lot of fun. Zoey looks suicidal. The new witch is fucking great.

Level Two:
An unholy terror. When setting the alarm don't wait around, chuck a molotov behind and run into the darkness. Chargers own here.

Level Three:
Didn't have time to finish, basically a Scavenge with the original team up above sniping the enemies and multiple tank spawns.

Mutators... not yet.

Need to play through again to find out the ending, got to 10/16 cans (playing on my tod). 
Going Solo 
If you play it in single player mode (rather than coop with no other players) then it's only 10 gas cans to finish the level. I managed to pull this off by leaving all the bots to die... 
Should Have Known 
But was waiting for someone else's download to finish before the lunch hour did. 
Yeah 
There's a new witch?
The fallen survivor is interesting insofar as you have to kill him before he can run off. He'll still be somewhere in the map, though.
The crates are lame indeed.
Some areas could have used a little more detail.
Cool finale, less cramped than Dead Center.
Will see about the Mutations. Func_group plz. Realism Versus sounds cool, but is out my league. Chainsaw Massacre should be fun. 
Realism Versus 
Realism versus is the dogs bollocks. Just got out of a game where one of my teammates said "valve just accidentally fixed versus mode, and they're going to roll it back in six days". Other highlights included us getting a sub in half way, and straight away telling him he was going "rambo" for walking 10 feet away from the group. It is pretty tough on uncoordinated teams though - catch someone alone with a hunter and they'll go down before they can type where they are. Getting a kill like that is not out of the question!

I think the new witch he means is the bride who constitutes the panic event on the first map. I remember discussing an idea for improving the witch in versus would be to make her summon a horde if you wake her up or crown her - giving a good reason to sneak around her. This panic event lets you see how that would work, which is cool. Of course, versus realism has a slightly different approach - making the witch an instant kill. Waiting to see how balanced that makes the sugar mill now... 
 
You definitely need a microphone for that. Typing is out of question. This mode is pretty much for pro players only, CS to the max. 
Next Week 
Yo. 
Mike 
Yeah, some microphones are necessary, we managed with two in the team - as long as they pay attention to their teammates and call when other people are pinned then you can manage alright.

Other observations on realism: It makes the jockey a lot more viable than it was before, for two reasons. The most obvious benefit is that once you have someone, there's no indication of where they are, or even that they've been grabbed, except for the "get him off me!" sounds. You can usually get people further away and hide them for longer. The other advantage you get in realism is that it becomes much easier for a survivor to become separated without realising that they have.

This plays well with the spitter, you can actually take advantage of the separation the spit offers if you get a 3 and 1 split. It's nice to have it serve that role, rather than just using it as a damage multiplier on pinned survivors. 
I Meant The Bride Yeah 
Since she summons the wedding guests when waking up. Anyone play the midnight riders song yet? I'm guessing it's only on that radio that's next to her.

For me the witches are a bit broken in L4D2... the wandering witch can take a shotgun blast without waking up. They should always summon a horde on wake, or always instakill the player, or attack the entire team. A witch should be potentially more dangerous than a tank - if the team are unprepared / stupid. Which there's no excuse for because of the crying / singing.

In fact, the only excuse is being deaf. A player in our LAN group is and we have to make sure to type 'witch' when the sounds start or she'll walk right into her.

Realism Versus will probably be Monday LAN - I might give the func_group a go some time over the weekend but the ping problems and a heavy weekend schedule might kill that. 
 
I didn't notice anything special or different about the bride, but I did notice witches sometimes get stunned (in a seemingly buggy way) and take a moment before attacking, like you said. There are some AI clipping issues too.

The MR song can also be played on the jukeboxes. 
Stunning Witches 
Getting a headshot on a witch using a sniper rifle will stun it for a second, it's the best way to coordinate a firing squad on one. 
Thankyou Valve Software 
for installing this on my machine without me even knowing! Cant complain about that.

Seems fun, areas are pretty decent size. 
Cool 
Haven't had time to play it so much yet, but looks nice.

Witches are fine in versus really, as infected you have to spot where they are, and plan a coordinated attack around her, to force the survivors to wake her while they are busy being boomed/smoked/whatever. 
You Homiez Need To Get On #tf And Start Playing FFS 
 
 
Me and pope played with my dad and we beat the Passing and spoiler Bill died :( 
Lol 
Are You Laughing At The Price? 
Mind you, a tank plush... 
How 
Do you get the Killing them Swiftly achievement?

I must have activated the various radios at least ten times by now. 
Ok, 
Jukebox only, hit the thing a few times.

Also, Ellis is now not such a crappy character - SPOILER:

/wading through sewage

'Hey guys, I found a candy bar!


...false alarm.' 
Hmmm. 
They have some pretty nice stuff on that page, I like the sunset survivors hoodie. 
Sorry Negke 
Left the work PC on over the weekend :P 
The Assing. 
Only played it with bots. Cool, but short. Could have used another map and perhaps an ending that was less blatantly setting people up for Scavenge.

Survivor zombies - cool.

New machine gun thingy - extra cool.

Supply chests - completely unneeded.

Map 1 is nice, map 2 is cool to start, gets a bit....bland later on, but interesting atmosphere. More l4d2 = more coolness. 
Last Man On Earth 
Who'd have thought that removing the common zombies would make the game more tense.

Finally, a real single-player mode. 
Ijed. 
Word homie. Only played a little bit of that mod but thought it worked really well. Completely different atmosphere and effective gameplay mode. 
 
I disagree. Admittedly I only played the first two levels of the first campaign, but that's because I got too bored to continue. I just ran through, shotgunned whatever got in my way, lit a tank on fire and ran away until he died, done.

I find a lot of the tension was actually removed, and many of the items become useless as well. The bile bomb/pipe bombs completely worthless, defibs worthless, melee is worthless, etc. (I would assume they would be taken out of this mode because they are worthless, but I didn't stop to verify.) 
Well, That's Fair Enough., 
You're wrong. I can live with that. 
Bler 
I'm surprised you'd even consider playing L4D without some poor survivors to shoot in the back and then go bugger off somewhere. 
 
Anyone mapping for this game? I decided to take a look at it over the long weekend and I really liked what I saw. I'm enjoying building little spooky areas... 
I Have Mapped For It 
The tools are a bit shite, not Hammer, but specifically the in-game navmesh stuff is just sooooo damn cumbersome and time consuming. I'd like to make some Scavenge maps for it and then string them together into a campaign, but I always spread myself thin and I never complete anything. :( 
 
That's funny, I just read a blog post about that:

http://www.worldofleveldesign.com/categories/wold-members-tutorials/nexusdog/l4d-campaign-design-why-less-is-more.php

I'm going to attempt a few survival maps to get my feet wet and see how I like it. I'm enjoying it so far but, admittedly, I haven't had to mess with the nav mesh yet. 
Can't Check 
But does the navmesh work by voxels? 
 
No, floor aligned polygons. 
Fugly Then 
Voxels are the future... 
 
How are voxels better for navigation purposes? I don't really know much about them but I suppose if you had flying creatures I could see some advantages of a 3D space flood fill ... but other than that, I don't see why you'd need them. 
 
3D Dot Game Zombies 
Last Man On Earth 
Quite fun. More strategic/stealthy and somewhat challenging on higher difficulty.

This would probably also make for a good 2on2 versus mod. 
 
I was trying to play that mode but as a fairly new player to L4D2 ... what can I do about the Jockey? When I'm alone, he basically rides me until I fall down. Is there a way to shake him off if I'm by myself? 
Nope 
The thing about Hunter, Smoker, Jockey, Charger, is that if they 'get' you by yourself you're screwed. But you can try to knock him out of the air with your gun-bash-thing before he rides you. 
 
That kind of makes this "last man on earth" game type a little janky then, doesn't it? That means that the game is loaded with insta-fail - if I don't nail that jockey before he gets to me, I'm done. Seems like they should have told the director not to spawn that sort of thing for that game type. Just give me zombies I can handle alone. 
 
Oh, and thanks for that tip, I hadn't considered trying to melee him. I'll give that a shot. 
Insta-fail 
That's the whole point of that mode. Keep your eyes (and ears) peeled and take out the special infected before they can get to you.

You can be incapacitated once (at least on Normal) - when your health is down, they will let go and you can heal. 
 
Yeah. Just seems like it would be more fun if I was defending against waves of zombies and not trying to skill shot one-hit-kill specials. 
So Errr.. 
Play the regular campaigns then? 
 
You don't agree that it seems silly the way they've implemented this mode? Maybe I'm weird then. I can't stand having to sit there while the jockey spends 30 second twiddling my health down low enough so I can fall down. Waste of time, IMO. 
 
Sure, but it's a gimmick mode after all. I didn't find waiting for the health to get low this annoying.
Those mutations seem more like quick scripts to get the job done instead of sophisticated mods, so I take it that's why they didn't make the jockey inflict more damage, remove unneeded items etc. 
 
Sure, sure. I know. I was just venting because the idea of it really appealed to me and then the FIRST THING that happened upon spawning into the map is a jockey jumped on my head. Kind of soured my experience... 
 
Willem you're not alone, I think the mode is pretty fail too. Had they added some mechanism to escape it would have been better, but the game is centered around coop, and taking that out leaves a hollow experience. 
Last Man On Earth 
is fucking shit.

Valve took all the coop out of their coop game and still expected it to be fun?

Well, its not =) For all the reasons posted above really.

Now, it would have been better if they had removed all the special infected, and just had regular zombies, and perhaps taken away some health kits to balance it some.

Shooting regular zombies = more fun than shooting special infected.

Im waiting patiently for the chainsaw massacre mutation! 
Mutations 
I'm waiting for this mode :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-fDfxF1Oe8 
Voxels 
How it works is you throw them at the collision mesh and they build the AI area by averaging what is a walkable surface or not - no worrying about tears, holes or folded collision mesh.

Old technology applied in a new way.

For the LastMan mode the Jockey hanging onto you does have a gameplay effect, just not a very good one - whilst he's riding you around the level the other specials have time to get close enough to kill you when the Jockey lets go.

Tbh I wouldn't reccomend the mode if you're new to the game - you need to know the maps pretty well. Same as Vs really which can be very frustrating for newcomers. 
Tank Run 
Looks great. But its apparently chainsaw massacre next. 
Chainsaw Massacre 
Cool, gore galore. Easy with human players (even tanks go down in no time), pretty hard with bots, because they act even stupider than usual. The melee-only mode undermines their AI - instead of following you no matter what, they often off for every single zombie they see and subsequently get in trouble, or just stand around for a special to incapacitate them... 
Hm 
I preferred the last mode much more tbh - the chainsaw noise and its b0rky collision detection are annoying too.

I think with a couple more modifications this could have been great. Maybe remove all specials (including the witch) and x4 tanks and normal zombies.

Oh, and remove all medkits / pills and replace with adrenaline. 
Ie. "Chainsaw Speedrun" 
 
So... 
You guys tried I Hate Mountains yet? If not you should, nice campaign.
http://www.ihatemountains.com/ 
 
Yeah, it's gorgeous. Some odd bugs like walking near the downed helicopter causes you to 'fall off' of it and hang there, stuck. But it was good. And very very pretty. 
Highly Impressive Release 
Huge and extremely detailed maps, with multiple paths (the fourth map in particular is some sort of explorational wonderland). Easy to get lost during gauntlet events.
Excellent build quality, very professional. Sometimes it was slightly laggy, but for the most part the performance was fine.

I totally dig the attention to detail. There seems to be something unique in almost every room/area. Decals, mapobjects, survivor graffitis (a bit excessive in number maybe - French Bal references, too?!), and things like domo dolls hidden here and there.

Gameplay seemed okay, challenging on Normal. Lots of items scattered about, exploration is usually rewarded if items are needed. 
Will Need 
To download again. 
Steam Summer Sale 
L4D2 for $10.20 today. 
Custom Campaign: Detour Ahead 
Great-looking quality maps. Very large. Too hard though. Still worth a try. 
Need To Play 
a bunch of those L4D2 custom campaigns. There's nothing quite like playing through a good zombie-infested area for the first time. 
Re: Detour Ahead 
Fucking ace. Best L4D2 campaign I've played. Better than the Valve ones. Just really top notch stuff. 
Next Week.... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhfAndzsCmI

Another great cinematic. I'm liking the way L4D/2 has it's own kinda culture and iconography now.

Sounds a great DLC - new campaign PLUS a L4D campaign ported to /2 
Woo 
Classy.
I really hope there are 3 tanks at once during the final. :) 
And I Hope... 
You're by my side* in coop against them. Wed night I reckon...



* by "by my side" I mean, well in front of me getting up close and personal with the tanks, while I cower on top of a truck or something... 
Word 
 
Sacrifice DLC 
Good stuff, short though, hard finale. Be sure to get Bal or Preach on your team.

However, I'm a tiny bit disappointed they just did a straight port to L4D2 - same with the No Mercy campaign. Kind of expected them at least to add a few L4D2 touches to the old maps (not just items and new special infected), and the new survivors. That as well as the fact they simply copied the finale map from The Passing makes it a bit of a lazy shot. 
Yeah. 
I want my money back!!

I think we did okay on the finale on the last time. Be sure to get The Fence on your team :).

I don't mind the straight porting. I find a lot of L4D2 tweaks enhance the game anyway - new weapons, new items, melee, new specials....well apart from the fucking Jockeys AAAARRGGHH.

I like L4D/2, really quite a lot. 
Yeah 
I enjoyed it. The Vs mode is pretty good here. 
 
I'm still hoping for a proper Func_group Versus event some time. Getting eight players together is definitely possible without much trouble. It would certainly make for some fun rounds - less potential for annoyance as with strangers. 
 
I'm down. 
Versus 
I'd be up for some Versus, gotta convince Shamb to play too. :D 
I'm A Bit Too Remote To Play Sadly 
 
Yeah 
The sacrifice is cool, played through it yesterday and enjoyed it very much!

Not tried the l4d1 version yet, or the l4d2 version of no mercy, but will get around to it.

Func_VS does sound very cool, im down with that 
The Question Is 
will there be a server that can handle cross-world play well enough? 
Yes 
Just played though it with biff, cardo, and his mate on a community server. If I recall correctly, Biff had a ping of around 150 and ours was at ~50, so that should work out fine. 
Poor Biff........ 
 
Accept For In That Alternate 1985 
when he was rich 
Accept 
except it 
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