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This project from the usual saran wrap covered in goo effects which is a shame as they surely have a lot of texturing talent.
scrag's not bad. i mean, it's not really what i would have imagined it, but it's good work.
sadly, these high res textures just underline how much texture misalignment the original id maps had. :S
That Doesnt Look Right
at all IMHO.
Everything looks wet and/or coated in vaseline. I appreciate the effort but the specular and/or normal maps are cranked way too high.
What is the guiding general aesthetic of these textures?
I'm just spreading the information of the massive amount work these two have done over several months.
I occasionally read the thread and look at the screen shots. Beyond that, I have no special knowledge of the project except it is refreshing to see that kind of effort being invested in a Quake project.
[In the last 6-12 months, a rather high level of texturing/skinning work has cropped at QuakeOne.com by various members. Fragger for instance. And zyxlx. And few others too.]
Hey, lookit. Shiny turds. Made more clearly turd like by the shininess...
Quantity != Quality
There is something not right about those textures and skins. Everything is either too shiny or has over the top shadows. Some of the textures have been done really well but a lot of them in the screenshots have extremely heavy black lines. Also what is up with the death knight, he has some strange stain down the front of him.
Sadly most of the screenshots at Quake1 are locked unless you register (probably not a good idea because no one outside the community can see what is going on). The screenshots on the mod site are nice but again far too shiny. Maybe it is a default setting with dark places engine? maybe there is something wrong with the specular maps, not sure but they should fix it.
I can see an incredible amount of personal time and effort has gone into this project but they seriously need to get a wider audience critiquing their work, otherwise it will not get any better.
I must say I prefer the approach that Starbuck took with the base textures. Just make them look like the originals, but better quality.
they do have a lot of talent and the website is pretty flashy and theme-appropriate. I agree in general that the in-game rendering is where things seem to go bad. Some theories:
1. impossible to create normal/specular maps that actually look good in a quake engine? No, tenebrae
looks pretty good, at least in some shots. Maybe the problem is everyone uses really intense specular maps?
2. quake .mdl skinmapping is so bad that any attempt at a high-res texture will accentuate the terrible stretching, which is sort of hidden by low-res skins.
3. darkplaces/etc. lighting just can't look that great, and it's maybe because the doom3 lighting model is fundamentally bad for aesthetics (i.e. too stark, too many pitch-black areas, no illusion of diffuse light)
4. the maps they pose these models are badly lit, and results in ugly lighting on models.
1. i wanted to mention this but i forgot, but it seems people always go into over-drive with normal mapping and specular levels. you have to remember that they are just part of the texture, not center stage.
2. quite possible. there's some stretching fairly visible even with the normal low res skins. also, the meshes don't work for the new textures as they were designed primarily to convey a shape not to fill out a normal map.
3. they seem to be taking screen shots in stock id maps with that coloured lighting pack someone did. the coloured lighting pack is complete crap because most of the lights are way over saturated colour, and other times it's like a disco in there.
4. and stock maps have a lot of texture mis-alignments which show up more in high res textures (the scrag screenshots is a good example of most of this)
More Images I Noticed ...
ogre looks the best of the bunch so far. he doesn't seem covered in saran wrap!
also, hate those stupid 'lava' weapons from rogue pack. :P
...are like jelly dicks. Funny to look at, but would you want one?
Too much contrast and lack of dynamic range in texture detail (maxed out everywhere).
Another Reason Why It Doesn't Work
I'm suspecting the quake models are way too low poly to work with the harsh shadowing?
Maybe someone could try implementing parallax mapping or something even better to see if it helps with the harsh lighting. But wait, the volume shadows would still use those huge polys, right? Maybe disabling self shadowing is the way to go.
Wasn't There A
High-Poly project on the go?
Re the screenshot above: it looks as though I need to be wearing 3D glasses to appreciate it fully :-)
Honestly I think the monsters so far look really good. The HellKnight, yes, is probably a little too shiny to really be covered in dried blood and gore, but still looks really good. The Scrag looks great, but I imagined the spikes coming out of the sides to be more bone-like. That pic of the ogre is awesome :D
Skins Look Great
and having hiqh quality textures under an open license sounds great. Agree that NMs seem a bit over-the-top in some of the shots, that plastic look ain't great. Still room for improvement.
But I think it makes no sense to more or less blame these guys who for Quake's lighting, low-poly models or misaligned textures. (Use them to make new maps with great lighting and proper texture alignment instead!)
Hope they keep up the good work and read some of the suggestions in here.
everything is covered in gold. surely the makers can see this? if it's like chrome armor or something, then it doesn't look too bad. but the ogres face is not so good.
if they can less the goo look, this could be a pretty fkn cool project
...The ogre face discussion is an old story... They made it far too human, not the way it was originally depicted. This somehow lessens the fright factor...
The soldiers look like completely awkward and, why is that enforcer shooting rockets?
Scrag is nice, but the bony spikes have been omitted.
These are not retexturings, more redesigning(of the skins)...
I pretty much agree with what has been said. The work is good quality... but subtlety and tact are necessary when doing these reskin things. The basic skins and textures have been serving me fine, and will continue to, so a replacement had better be damned fine to fix what's not broke.
And it's just a nitpick, but the reinvisioned scrag bothers me. On the original skin, you see a wormlike creature that has consumed a human wizard from the inside out, leaving only the ribcage. Given the Lovecraft quote about "instructing the very worm that gnaws," I think it's pretty clear that was the intention. The reskin has little to no hint of this disturbing subtlety. Actually, it has pectoral muscles instead of a ribcage, which doesn't seem right.
Also, poor (hungover?) hell knight. I guess he's supposed to have just been drinking blood, but the bump map is cranked so high that the dribbling looks like vomit. Just sayin'.
And will their fiends have eyes or not? story at 11.
the worm that gnaws quotation is from the Necronomicon exerpt in "The Festival," one of Lovecraft's most atmospheric stories. Your take on the scrag based on this idea is genius. I never thought of it that way, but then there has to some explanation for the name monster_wizard.
Copied From UWF, Pointed Out By Kell
"The nethermost caverns', wrote the mad Arab, 'are not for the fathoming of eyes that can see; for their marvels are strange and terrific. Cursed the ground where dead thoughts live new and oddly bodied, and evil the mind that is held by no head. Wisely did Ibn Schacabao say, that happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain, and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes. For it is of old rumour that the soul of the devil-bought hastes not from his charnel clay, but fats and instructs the very worm that gnaws; til out of corruption horrid life springs, and the dull scavengers of earth wax crafty to vex it and swell monstrous to plague it. Great holes secretly are digged where earth's pores ought to suffice, and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl."
-H. P. Lovecraft, 'The Festival'
I interpreted it as if the wizard has managed to return after death, in a much reduced form. Kind of like badly mixed materia.
oh man I just love Lovecraft's disgust with organic processes. I think part of this passage is his idea that it's just disgusting to imagine that organic processes of eating and shitting and chewing and decaying etc, could somehow produce consciousness. Surely the "things that have learnt to walk that ought to crawl" are humans. At least an ape or dog (rememmber "Pickman's Model" in which he uses both of these animals as images of bestial disgust, and the fact that Lovecraft as a cat lover must surely have hated dogs) or worm for that matter, isn't aware of how rank its existential situation is. Yet, in my view, it'd be even more ridiculous if a mind existed actually apart from any physical variables; "Evil the mind that is held by no head."
Like the story Cool Air.
I think "the worm that gnaws" is probably the standard worms that decompose buried people, but taking a mundane concept and re-imagining it as a fantastical concept is where i think a lot of fantasy/horror originates. The "giant worm that is digesting a human torso" idea is pretty great, i never thought of that but it fits the original creature design well, so i approve this implausible interpretation.
yeah, that's some pretty grotesque imagery... which is of course perfect for quake. ^_^
I Guess It Is Open To Interpretation
Although, most quake guides and monster bestiaries seem to agree that there is something vestigally human in the scrag. I'm looking at the Quake Wiki and quaddicted's bestiary right now, and the wiki says: "a Scrag is a kind of floating creature resembling a white snake combined with a human torso that spits small green globs of acid at you"
I also found this picture, which is otherwise kinda painful to look at due to overblown darkplacieness, but the redone skin really brings out the ribcage: http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3999/dp000042sd6.jpg
To me, the evidence is clear, except that it's weird, disturbing, and unexplained. As far as why
such a horrid floating creature is inhabiting a human ribcage, I think that's for each of our twisted minds to decide. One final answer would defeat the mystery.
Oh and necros, I really liked your ideas for chestbursting vorelings. As if the little buggers don't give me enough of a startle already.
Every enemy in Quake and the Mission Packs. Animated. Not just animated .. animated with background transparency.
re: Scrag discussion ... thanks for that. I'll never view the scrag the same again. And makes some concept drawings/fan-art all wrong ...
How/why would it develop shoulders/pecs like that without arms?
Too Human Looking
there seems to be a fine line between making it look human enough, but yet no.
i don't know if this has anything to do with the uncanny valley or not, but a monster design seems to be able to go from scary/disturbing/strange to ridiculous/comic/mundane really fast. :S
Looks Good Actually
i like that. the texture on the visor area is pretty cool.
I Support [flagged As Spam]
above site is filled with warez and stolen content. he spammed it to i3d too.
oic, seems like there's download links off of file locker sites. :S
Yeah - Thats Fairly Hideous
What A Waste Of Time
I still don't understand why you'd want to make super-hi-res textures to put on ancient 300-poly models that animate choppily and have 8-bit vertex precision.
I mean the law of diminishing returns is going to kick in pretty fucking soon isn't it? :p
some of the skins look cool but they should really be looking at remodelling them too else it's a bit of a waste..
I don't understand the need for new models. Sure, the original are insanely ugly, but the same goes for the level brush-work. should we bash rygel for having made his hi-res textures instead of recrafting all the maps??
Part of the fun is in making appear new and detailed something that is not.
The nostalgia factor have a big part in the process, infact a remake with a new engine would be seen as a completely different beast from the community. For me this is revival.
Is this fanboy-ism? No, I'd like higher-poly models too, but that doesn't dimish my desire for these skins. Maybe in the future we'll have new models too, even from this same team, it seems.
Super-high detailed skins with full specularity, bumpmaps, chocolate sauce etc are a bit incongruous with the 300 poly models. Making the skin map so advanced actually draws attention to the primitive model it's going on.
It's beyond diminishing returns, it's almost negative returns as you keep upping the resolution in my opinion. I think the sweet spot is probably 2x or maybe 4x at a push, and keeping it just at the diffuse textures.
I think the artists are very skilled actually, but have to agree that it might be misplaced effort. I'd love to see faithful 1-2k poly monster replacements though, combined with 4x res faithful skins, that could be beautiful and very worthwhile.
I take your point you made using Rygel's textures as an example, but at the same time, you can load a more modern map with better brushwork that deserves the textures, but you'd have to make new high-res skins if you made high-poly models.
I share your excitement at seeing things that were not previously, look detailed and new, especially when it comes to games I love like Quake. It's awesome to see things brought up to date.
I really disagree that this is the optimum direction for a graphical reboot though. Opinions may vary of course. If it was down to me, I'd go for slightly above Quake 3 quality graphics, but with everything very consistent, coherent, and at the same level: models, skins, textures, particle effects, etc.
All that said, it's fun to see what they're doing, it's nice stuff, even if I wouldn't want to have those skins always turned on in Quake by default!
Rygel did NOT make all those textures himself. He used the Quake Retexturing ones as base.
Also, they look rather weird with all their comical reliefs and stuff.
starbuck is almost right, more or less like the previous comments, in the sense that with new models all would be better, but I disagree with the sentence on diminishing return: it's true that maps and models remain extremely sharp, but having seen the final result, it's not bad like you're suggesting.
They worked right to dissimulate the low polycount, adding details where it made sense, avoiding for example to paint false 3d elements where it was too evident.
the only one i don't really like is the fiend. i don't like that ugly snout that was added. it just doesn't seem to fit in for me.
shub niggurath looks wild though! i kind of like this look more than the original bleeding gashes.
We have to consider that making skins is fairly easy, at least compared to the modelling process for quake, that is unfriendly to say the least.
I'm glad too they redesigned a few monsters, 'cause Shub and Chthon are surely better than the originals.
also that it's not really worth making 'high res' models of the original ones because the q1 mdl format is... well, quite bad. accuracy is terrible (well known 'vertex dancing' effect) and the limits are pretty low. i believe max 1024 tris or something? also, lack of real uvw mapping and having to rely on simple planar projection (front/back only or breaking model apart) means making a skin for a high poly model would be quite annoying.
if it was for a special engine with, for example, md3, then it would bear looking at. but even md3 is not that great. iirc, q3 models are also open at the texture seams.
Theres Pletny Of Great Md3s
so i think that's a good enough standard
quake modelling is not annoying, it's only extremely tedious. even porting md3 files to mdl is prone to many errors.
Make sure to use Qwalk and send feedback to Sajt so he finishes Qwalk2:
(Been a while since I used that search site)
You can use Google directly like this:
So This Project Seems To Be Dead....
It seems that post was a joke. They actually have a new release tomorrow.
Apparently the "joke" was unwanted and consequential to an error..
It doesn't matter anymore, the full pack has been released.