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ReMakeQuake Sp Demo #2
Thanks to some massive personal sacrifices by the team the second singleplayer demo is here, just in time for your yuletide hangovers.

http://kneedeepinthedoomed.wordpress.com/2010/12/24/xmas-presents-part-2/
^.^ 
 
A Great Christmas Gift! 
Thanks! 
Fullvis Time Of E1m6rq 
$ time ./WVis.exe -threads 6 -level 4 e1m6rq.bsp
---- WVis 2.31 ----
Modified by Bengt Jardrup
Multithreading enabled by Willem

File: e1m6rq.bsp
3819 portalleafs
11779 numportals
testlevel = 4

Using 6 threads.


average leafs visible: 186
max leafs visible: 570 near (64 704 192)
c_chains: 61608714
visdatasize: 198 kb compressed from 1782 kb

Elapsed time : 4:00
State time : 0:00

real 4m2.973s
user 0m0.000s
sys 0m0.000s

avg. cpu temp.: 65 C
Core i7 @ 1.60GHz, 4 hyperthreaded cpus.
8GB dual-channel ddr3 @ 531MHz RAM
Windows 7 64bit 
Direct Download Mirror 
Every Week Is Kiel Week! 
Go play this, people! A very nice foretaste of things to come. 
Very Promising So Far 
Tried this out the other day. My computer's fairly old, so I can't really run the new engines without massive slowdown, so I played it in Fitzquake. Skills 1 and 2 didn't work, so tried it on Easy, which I never play.

Bunch of observations I wrote down while playing:

1. I like the new ammo boxes.
2. I liked the new ogre death sound. The awaken sound, which just kinda sounds like muttering, I did not.
3. The boilers had too much of a blast radius. If that fact were hinted at, it would be less of a big deal.
4. Not a big fan of the moving blocks puzzle. Sure, it worked, but...it didn't feel very Quakey to me. To me, Quake is a stranger traveling through alien lands. I can see locked doors, traps to kill intruders, but the block puzzle? Eh. Why put it there? Perhaps you've already thought of this.
5. I did like the grapple.

I found the mapping quality to be pretty high. Pretty detailed, original ideas throughout the level. The lighting machines were pretty fun.

Why were the monster totals not clear from the start? I found that annoying.

Playing in fitzquake, Chthon crashed the game whenever he rose, with an edicts warning, I think. So, reloaded it in darkplaces, just for the Chthon fight.

Um, I applaud you guys for trying something different, but...I wasn't a huge fan of Verthon. The extreme choppiness of Darkplaces on my computer didn't help, but it seemed annoying, with his earthquake attack making combat frustrating.

As for the model, I found the original far superior. I really don't like the way it tapers at the bottom, just like Vermis. Chthon is supposed to be massive, a behemoth. The upper part was pretty good, though, so it's certainly not beyond hope.

I think that's all I've got for now. Things are certainly looking promising for this mod. Good luck on the whole thing. 
 
Even on an old computer the RMQ engine is extremely likely to outperform FitzQuake with this content; I really recommend at least trying it and only using something else if you have problems with it. 
 
Yeah, try the engine first. In terms of performance its very very fast.

The muttering of the Ogres is their new idle sound - they chat with each other sort of like Nehahran Gaunts.

We've been thinking about the boilers - a lot of it is how big explosions work (or not) in Quake.

Each episode will be slightly different in terms of style. Some of the other maps are more recognisable in terms of massive fights or map crawling. Why not a more puzzle or platforming orientated one :)

Not showing monster totals we'll be rolling back...

Verthon, well it's a change of style. From a fat bloke with spikes stuck on and a paint over. I'm having a lot of trouble getting him reexported with his new animation which will make a big difference.

I expected him to be the biggest sticking point since he's the most obvious change. 
Godmoded It 
I ended up godmoding this using FitzQuake 0.85 SDL on my Mac with +max_edicts 2048 in the command line as the very first thing.

[Quakespasm 0.3 for OS X doesn't run for me, maybe SDL version problem, anyways ...)

Quick list of features I noticed:

1. Grapple and grapple points. Controls reuse existing common binds ("impulse 10" and "impulse 12") --- I like this. I hate having to add endless keys to run something.

2. Alpha masked textures or fence textures or whatever you prefer to call them.

3. Gyro physics. Ladders, pushable boxes.

Playing it ...

First the map was very good. I noticed a couple of new monsters (one being the boss, obviously).

The pushables (which are pullable) with the grapple ... are superb. They go up lifts, you don't slide standing on them.

I admit I didn't get the box puzzle immediately.

After getting used to the grapple (+hook), you end up finding that you can control it quite well and use it to swing across lava. I'm not sure if Quake has seen such a realistic feeling type of grapple before.

As far as the map goes, I did have a bit of trouble getting lost and confused mostly because the map was very 3D. The 3Dness of the map plus the grapple made it so I really couldn't competently play it on my laptop and had to wait until I had a chance to use a desktop.

On OS X, FitzQuake 0.85 played the map flawlessly as far as I could tell with the exception that the alpha masked textures render pink instead of transparent as to be expected.

http://quakeone.com/proquake/interims/fitzquake_sdl_085_beta_1.zip

I did try to build the RMQ engine on OS X, but it complained about some OpenGL stuffs (vertex buffers and such, I'm thinking) so maybe I'm short a file in the project or .h include.

I wonder if something can be done engine-side like brush model interpolation or something to smooth it when cubes drop. Just a random thought.

Was hoping to see rotating doors somewhere in there, something to look forward to for a future I suppose.

What I thought this demo did the best was increase the game depth and feature set. The help buttons, the camera cuts, the ability to click attack to click through the help was great.

The environment itself felt far richer and interactive because of the grapple points, pushing things (like you can use a cube to jam up a "squisher"). I'm assuming that the ladders were func_ladders, but well ... they could be the classic staggered clip ones as far as I know.

How the heck did you have moving vats of lava? I assume this this is ExtrasR4 somehow. Rather impressive.

And I thought the rotating camera work was very cool. I thought the mod created an environment of more depth and interaction.

On the map itself: great use of using a lack of lighting to impede progress. I wasn't going in that dark hall. 
The Lava Is The New Func_water Iirc. 
I'm not sure if it's from extras or not. It's documented in the rmq mapping guide on the rmq website. 
Pretty Much 
Yeah, the original moving liquids came from extras, but its since been improved and meshed in better with all the additional features we've included.

The coders on the team, especially Supa, have given the mappers some very powerful stuff to play with. If you want to try it out and you need help with something not on the site then let one of us know. 
Grapple 
How are you supposed to gain momentum with the grappling hook to be able to swing across things? I feel dumb not being able to get past the first lava pit. 
Grapple 
Use directional keys (the keys that you use normally to move). You might need to elevate or descend to swing properly.

I have another problem, I always press JUMP when I'm "grappled" and I fall :(

BTW - the demo is nice, I played it a few days ago, but it just doesn't feel like Quake :(

It has nice graphics, the map is awesome, is creepy, but... it's too "complex". Too many puzzles, tools :(

Quake is meant to be simple, I know it's a remake, but some things are not ok :(

Ah, one more thing - monsters are way too powerful, I played on easy skill and an ogre almost killed me in less than one second. 
@RaverX 
but it just doesn't feel like Quake

I don't speak for anyone, but what I have always sensed from gb is that one driving concept behind Remake Quake is to expand the toolbox to allow for ideas and concepts seen in other similar games and to flesh out new ideas.

Other influences both large and small are things such as Quake 2, Tomb Raider (gb likes that game), in some ways Half-Life ("fence textures") and rotating BSP models plus the idea that water can move.

Go to Quaddicted and there are 900+ single player maps. The whole idea behind Remake Quake is to do something very *different* with the existing set of tools.

Sameness is certainly not a goal of this project, not one bit. 
Thanks, Good Feedback Everyone 
The grapple reels in and out, and you gain velocity as per a physical object whilst attached to something, so speeding towards a grapple point and detaching will see you flying past it at high speed. If you hit a wall at falling or faster speed expect the inevitable.

The grapple originally came from a relatively unheard of mod called wicked hook, allowing for the same swinging mechanics - we melded it with gyro physics and modified it a bit to fit what felt more fun, though it hasn't changed much since the last MP demo.

OSX build of the engine - check with our engine guy Mh. Should be a beaten track though, since our original is based off a forked SDL of fitz.

Ladders are real ladders :)

RaverX, like I said before, this is one of the more cerebral maps, it's supposed to make you puzzle about more. For the demo there's a lot of fighting you're not seeing that's included in the map as well.

For the difficulty of enemies, in general they're easier to kill thanks to weapon rebalancing, but are much better at dishing out pain.

A standard Ogre would have real hard time hitting you under id1 unless cleverly placed by the mapper remember.

But true, we went the route of more damaging / unpredictable / aggressive rather than banging on a few hundred points of health. 
Well... 
I liked it, mostly.

What I didn't like:

>The Ogre chatter sounded like Fozzie Bear to me ("waka waka waka").

>The mix of hi-res and lo-res textures in some areas made my head hurt -- but those hi-res textures are pretty damn good!

>The grappling hook had me frustrated until I learned that I could just "levitate" in one direction by holding down that key.

>Sleeping Shamblers :|

The rest was pretty frickin' awesome! :)

Definitely play this with the Remake engine and hi-res texture pack! You won't regret it!

Cheers, Gents!!! 
Ijed, MH... 
Tried using the RMQ engine. Claimed that I was missing "SDL_net.dll". I hate fucking around with problems like this, so I just gave up and used DarkPlaces after fitzquake couldn't load the boss. 
^^ Ok, That Should NOT Be Ignored 
I feel that is a major shortcoming of the distribution ... not of the mod.

The Quakespasm engine properly includes both .dll files in the same folder structure in the archive. This archive should be properly structure with the .dll files for Windows being in the game dir as the engine --- and with the pak0.pak being a proper subdir living in rmqdemo2 folder. Convenience does matter and an end-user shouldn't be expected to do a lot of work poking around for such a thing.

Open Source Remake Quake EZ Installer:

Download: http://quake-1.com/files/modfiles/remakequakesp2.exe 
My Thoughts And A Demo Of My Runthrough 
Instead of copypasting my entire post I have on QuakeOne... here is the link to it. I hope I've said some useful things.

http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-talk/quake-central/6339-what-happened-remake-quake-2.html#post81365

And here's a demo of my playthrough on hard skill:

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/monster_rmqdemo2.zip

Hope I made some useful points there. :) 
SDL 
The SDL files are included in the zip, but not in the correct (=root) folder. This is pretty silly. The files are mentioned in the text file, though. However, I can see how even less people than usual are going to read it thanks to its brick form. At any rate, the demo doesn't come with an engine of its own for nothing.

What are the chances of a repacked version AND adding the download mirrors to the blog post? (as downloading from 4shared is awkward at best) 
 
What are the chances of a repacked version AND adding the download mirrors to the blog post?

Unknown and high, in that order, although the latter may take a few days.

Sameness is certainly not a goal of this project, not one bit.

I wouldn't say that that's completely true. I think we do want players, as they are going through the map, to think "oh, this is that part of the original map... very clever" at times. The gameplay is very different, though, as evidenced by the available weapons as the level progresses.

How are you supposed to gain momentum with the grappling hook to be able to swing across things? I feel dumb not being able to get past the first lava pit.

About the only reliable method I've found, is to hold down the button as you fire, and after it's pulled you a little bit, let go, and the momentum takes you across.

$ time ./WVis.exe -threads 6 -level 4 e1m6rq.bsp

Firstly, -level 4 is default for most versions of vis these days.

Secondly, that was with this version of the map. The version that existed a couple of days before was the version that nearly fried my computer... 
 
but are much better at dishing out pain.

Not a fan of this approach. It is something that Quake improved on over Doom. You drop into a little area, the dual chainsaw ogre comes out and instantly takes off most of your health. Great. Reload, bounce a grenade around the corner and kill him without taking any damage.

If you want more incoming damage, add more monsters, don't make each monster take most of the player's health so easily, it will only make it more irritating if the player makes a mistake or is surprised. 
 
With a few exceptions of course... I don't want the Fiend or Shambler crippling... 
 
BTW - the demo is nice, I played it a few days ago, but it just doesn't feel like Quake :(

It has nice graphics, the map is awesome, is creepy, but... it's too "complex". Too many puzzles, tools :(

Quake is meant to be simple, I know it's a remake, but some things are not ok :(


bear in mind this is just one of 30 odd SP maps and not all will follow the same ethos. there will be plenty of oldskool quake action along the way too, just broken up occasionally with puzzles and the likes. both for the sake of variety and bringing fresh approaches to the table 
ZQF 
It depends - the chainsaw Ogre does constant damage, whilst the Fiend and Shambler tend to hit you for single instances of heavy damage.

All Ogres will shred a player pretty quickly, but also have a major weakness against the shotguns from close range...

It does mean that surprise attacks from close range berserkers can become trial and error, true.

SDL files - hm, sorry. I'm away for new years without internet so won't be able to solve this myself. We forget that not everyone is signed up for the dev team :) 
 
Thanks for playing; there will be a point release with a few niggles fixed and hopefully easier installation.

The RMQ engine is required to correctly run this demo; Fitzquake/QS is missing a few key features and runs a lot slower, and even DP doesn't support it 100% (yet).

The RMQ engine is based on Quakespasm 0.85.3 (ie Fitzquake SDL) but its renderer has been extensively rewritten and it uses protocol 999.

RMQengine is the suggested way to play it; DP largely supports it but will run a lot slower. You could try FTE as well.

We should hopefully have a Mac version of the RMQengine for the point release.

As for not Quake, well, RMQ is a 40 map megaconversion. You're bound to find some maps that seem more puzzly / grapply, as well as some more classic hordefests. This map has only around 50 monsters. A large part of this demo is the introduction of the grapple, the pushables and things like cameras and custom keys. Hence it was bound to be less of a horde fight and more of a feature show.

You can bypass the puzzle, btw, and you can beat Chthon easily by blowing up the boilers first. And once you get more used to the hook, you can in turn focus more on the combat again.

What Lardarse said - press Fire and get pulled towards the grapple point, then press Jump to disengage the hook in mid flight. The momentum will carry you across gaps. The other method is to use the directional keys while dangling. A lot of the grapple points in this map lead to secrets.

Some lava gaps can be hopped without using the grapple btw, or using rocket/grenade jumps.

Finally, I want to advertise the randomizer a bit - a lot of the monster positions and subtypes are randomized, so they'll differ between playthroughs.

Thanks for the feedback, we will use it to create an improved, bugfixed and easier to install point release in a little while.

gb 
 
Once it has written its config it will fail with Z_Realloc: failed on allocation of XXXXX bytes if I try to load the map. 32 bit linux, nvidia, oss.

Grapple hook is absolutely not intuitive. I tried swinging and shrinking/growing. The player just wobbles around seemingly random. I did not manage to pass that first lava pit after about 15 tries. 
 
Main problem I had with the grapple was that the engine wouldn't recognise mouse4 as a button, and I use mouse3 and mouse2 for weapon selection, so I couldn't bind it to my mouse.

You could make the grapple a weapon and get the player to switch to it, the way you're using it means being off-hand isn't essential.

Also I hope you'll make some levels where more than just tiny points can be grappled too. Swinging around entire rooms off stuff is great fun, as Tribes Vengeance showed :) 
Underwhelmed 
I liked the colored lights fuckery around the power crystal puzzle.

It took me like 5 tried to block the crushers with the pushable boxes and when I did it I felt absolutely no reward.

Didn't care much for the extra areas added. Oh wow, take the pent and cross the lava, what a new and inventive gameplay mechanism.

The moving lava pots would have been cool if they weren't completely ripped from e3m4rq.

I miss the huge slow crusher.

All the Shambler encounters felt tacked on and unimpressed. And I absolutely dislike how the DBS kills them in like 3 shots (lol dbs > rl)

The Vomitus in the starting hall is the #1 Misused Monster of 2010. What the hell was the point if he can't even do what he was intended to do?

The Elder Ogre - wasn't he supposed to be as tall as a Shambler? Seems to miss the point for me, otherwise.

The boilers = instakill bullshit. I destroyed them all before fighting Chthon and kept spamming rockets at him from the arena entrance until he died.

Whatever. Red Slammer had me more entertained. 
Hook 
It's an offhand hook and works similar to those in many DM modes. Making it an additional weapon would take away much of its speed possibilities.

As I understand it, there's going to be a tutorial area early on in the full game, where players will be able to familiarize themselves with the item. It just didn't fit into this map.

Swinging does work in some places, but, indeed, the best method seems to be the one Lardarse descibed above. 
 
i'm sure the engine can be modified to incorporate mouse4 too :) (mh?) 
 
I didn't have any problem actually using the grapple, just pointing out the lack of mouse buttons. It was nice to actually have a proper grapple with the ability to winch it in.

But it may well feel very limiting if you get this fun grapple with nice physics but only get to use it to do very specific jumps over the odd gap. Also not a fan of using so many cutscenes to point stuff out. For tutorials it's nice, but when it's just pointing to a grapple point...I'd rather the points are just made *really* obvious :P 
 
Another little thought btw, it's always fun to cause destruction, so for the crusher blocking puzzle, it could be fun to make them seize up once blocked, perhaps with some nice metal snapping sounds, so you get a bit more umph from getting through it

Also the block pushing/pulling was too slow

Weapon balance wise, I'm inclined to agree with Ricky that it doesn't feel right. I'd agree on toning down the SSG. Also the super nailgun spread works as a way to make the original nailgun still useful, but the spread is OTT. My suggestion for what it's worth, tighten it up slightly and give it spin up/down time like a chaingun. 
I'm Not Ricky 
 
 
Shows how much attention I'm paying. I'm associating colours with the poster I've seen use it most :p 
ER..... 
onetruepurple I agree with most of your comments/ideas, it's interesting how different playing styles can work. I'm much more oriented towards the idea of dropping the player into a scenario where they have as much freedom as possible, and with the randomisation features of the current progs (semi-randomised monster spawning) I'm having a lot of fun mapping for this. e2m1rq is almost in an alpha state now, and there are >200 monsters on skill 2/3, but I think you will find maps in the finished product to suit all tastes.

Giant Ogres or Ogre-Giants as Elder-Ogres is a cool idea though, I must admit too. 
Hmm... Textures Are All Blank... 
...What did I do wrong? 
Happened To Me Too 
Thx, OTP... 
Now it works. 
First Time At It 
Tried the included engine and had white textures with the .lit colors added. Frames per second was as slow as I normaly get in Darkplaces (about 15-35fps). Then tried Darkplaces and saw nice textures, but a framerate of 2 to 4 per second. Then tried regular Fitz 0.85(Windows) with:
+max_edicts 2000
...in the shortcut's cmd line, and success! Played fast and looked really good. Playing at hard skill didn't seem too challenging, but being a demo it's understood. There is alot to absorb here at first. The end boss was excellent in that cool chamber. All of the other monsters A-Ok. Most new sounds are great, some just need getting used to. Zombie's pain sounds like a womans though (a gag?).

Overall, different is good. Hope many mappers can find this mod easy to work with, regardless of their computer system. 
 
Can I just check something here? Everyone who's getting white textures has a GeForce FX card, right? 
 
Me, ATI radeon 9000 8 years oldie. ATI was just being bought out by AMD at that time and included crappy graphic driver sets (9500 were the worst). AMD sort of fixed some drivers, but never complete. I still have woking a TNT2 (Pine)from way back, and every program worked great with it. 
 
> Me, ATI radeon 9000 8 years oldie.

Not too far out; the age is about right and I have another person with the same problem on a GeForce FX. I'm now 100% certain that this is caused by usage of an OpenGL extension that these cards are supposed to support but don't really. 
Uh, Well... 
Celeron 2,4 ghz approx 5/6yrs old+Sapphire Radeon 9200SE atlantis.

Is it the same? 
 
Radeon 9000/9200 or GeForce FX 5xxx fit with the theory - cards that were marketed as "DirectX 9" but were really only of a DirectX 8 (or GL 1.4/1.5) feature level.

Thanks all, that's been very helpful info in determining the cause of this bug. The beers are in the post! ;) 
Mh 
I can believe it. I feel these graphics companies do this on purpose. That way people always upgrade. Thats why I stopped upgrading for a long while. Till my 3, 8-9 year old computers break, I'm not doin nuthin.

old tight_wad :) 
 
I'm thinking that I'll probably do an "engine only" mini-patch to resolve this and a few other small (and not so small) niggles that people are having; it's important that people can get to run this with the RMQ engine as there are a lot of things (like QC extensions) that improve on the overall experience. 
 
I'm playing it on vista btw and I have a feeling I had some mouse lag. I'll try playing it a little tomorrow to confirm it :E 
Nice Christmas Present! ^_^ 
first, mappery is quite good with cool detailed areas and well done lighting (except in a few places where the coloured light is washed out).
i liked all the broken bits and stuff... like a in-progress renovation of e1m6 or something. quite cool. recognized old areas and enjoyed the re-worked progression through the map. i liked that there were puzzles, btw. nice change of pace.

stuff that bothered me:

1. push/pull blocks move way too slowly. it's lucky you can pull them with the grapple, because if i had to push those 4 blocks with the symbols i would have just not bothered. at least with the grapple you can sort of afk and wait for the block to get into position.
should move AT LEAST 2x as fast, but i could even go for 3x. or make the speed variable at the very very least. that crusher puzzle with the moveable blocks to wedge... there's a big box and a small box that both move at the same speed. the little box should be really easy to push around i think.
so yeah, just simply speeding up the pushing speed would go a long way toward making this less painful.
concept is fine and i like it. :)

2. grapple. like a few others here, i had a terribly difficult time using this thing. about the only thing i could do with it was reel myself up. (incidentally, i really liked that one spot where there's the hole in the ceiling and you can grapple up through it to a higher room... for some reason, it felt really cool doing that).
i tried using forward and back movement keys to sort of swing like in other games of the sort like dark messiah or fakk2, but it just didn't seem to move me very much... i had to resort to running grapple/jumping and that was hard to time, and i actually had to noclip over the first lava pit. o.o
so yeah, needs some reworking to make this easier to use.
btw, the physics on it is top notch. really liked this, and probably appreciated it more after working on that dynamic rope thing i posted about a while ago. n1

3. when you jam the crushers with the blocks, it should break the crusher or find some way to stop it from playing the movement sounds... they are fucking annoying!!! :D dun dunnnn dun dunnnn dun dunnn...

4. why are the blood particles so tiny? they are smaller than even quakeworld clients which are quite small. it makes shotguns feel very weak and silly. if you're going to make the particles tiny like that, consider spawning some blood sprite particles or something... i like the visceral feel of the large software/gl/fitzquake particles.

5. this map felt very quicksave-y... like, you turn a corner and suddenly this monster you didn't see takes half your health away. gotta do something about that... give some time when the monster first sees you or something.

6. didn't really enjoy that one puzzle where you get the rocket launcher and it tells you the boiler is explosive...
you should add a little note at the end that tells you the boiler is sort of explosive after you pump a dozen rockets into it. :P i sort of milled about that area not knowing what to do after shooting it once. :P
as an aside: liked the implementation of ladders in here. well done and work nicely. not sure i like how it makes you fall off when you turn away from it.... i liked the HL1/2 mechanic more where you stick on a ladder until you jump instead of the D3 way of falling off when you turn, but only a minor thing. it's just that, if you do it the hl1 way, you can shoot backwards off ladders which i always found cool. like in movies where the guy hooks his arm in the rungs and turns around shooting.

7. not a chthon fan here, sorry. :P he looks more like a worm (and indeed, on my first play through, i thought it was a new monster and not a redone chthon!). what's with the boiler explosion radius being so huge compared to the explosion graphic? it's like impossible to judge the size... you gotta be like 5 miles away to avoid the blast. :P

also, rmq engine worked fine, no problems on win7 64bit dual core system here. no ram problems either, but my always load up with like 256mb anyway. 
Feedback Of Weaknesses 
The mod is a stone-throw from terrific.

Here is how it isn't.

1) The mod is all too eager to give your 11 points of falling damage from falls that in standard Quake wouldn't damage you at all. Recommendation: determine whatever is the max safe falling distance in Quake and ONLY access damage after such a fall.

2) Boiler destruction blast radius is too big. Others have said this. Enough said.

3) The grapple is extremely effective once you get the --- um --- hang of it ;)

4) The mousewheel should scroll the console in every version of Quake. FitzQuake and its derivatives are the only Quake engines where that is busted. Likewise, 5 button mouse support should be a standard. My Mac supports 5 buttons, for instance, but not in FitzQuakey type of engines.

5) I didn't look, but the RMQEngine should support "record a demo at any time" just like DirectQ does. Just for general infos for the single player types that are FitzQuake/DarkPlaces oriented ... ProQuake has supported "record a demo at any time" since at least 2002 and JoeQuake has supported this since at least 2003. Oh yeah, guess what other engine supported this ... DOSQuake 1.01. Not supporting this capability in modern times isn't old school; it's mold skool. I'm not saying RMQEngine has this or not, I'm just saying MH knows how to implement it if it isn't a current feature since it is in DirectQ.

Now for the positives ...

A) 1I like the philosophy of less monsters, more meaningful danger. I shouldn't have to play a Tronyn map with 32 scrags, 8 fiends and 12 vores ambushing me to feel threatened.

B) OMG it isn't Quake enough. Ok, goto Quaddicted and download the 978 Quake maps --- a lifetime supply --- and realize that if there wasn't a single new stock Q1 map ever made that more than enough of that linear school of thought have already been made that if you are worried about something different you suck at Googling or you have the fail of not knowing about Quaddicted. Even then, several uber-outstanding Quoth maps by distrans and Ijed don't have the Quakey feel and totally own. In order to even have the right qualifications to gripe about a non-Quake feel you must at a minimum not be ignorant to the point knowing that Quaddict has a lifetime supply of stock Quake goodness. Nehahra isn't actually Quakey. Do we need more Quakey? Only neg!ke Quakey do we need more of. Anyone with solid fundamentals of Q1 single player knows this.

C) Oh yeah ... the camera work and help buttons are uber. 
 
The mod is all too eager to give your 11 points of falling damage from falls that in standard Quake wouldn't damage you at all. Recommendation: determine whatever is the max safe falling distance in Quake and ONLY access damage after such a fall.

thanks for bringing this up, i forgot about that. felt the falling damage was overly harsh, and i'd rather just flat 5 damage as per normal quake. it's especially apparent in this map as it's a very vertical one with plenty of falling.

The grapple is extremely effective once you get the --- um --- hang of it ;)

maybe i'll go back and try to figure the damn thing out later.... heh, but you need to jump into that first lava pit for that pun. :P

Likewise, 5 button mouse support should be a standard. My Mac supports 5 buttons, for instance, but not in FitzQuakey type of engines.

yes please, although i'd say this should be in all fitzquake engines! (and really, all engines in general).

I didn't look, but the RMQEngine should support "record a demo at any time" just like DirectQ does.

strictly speaking, you could always do this in any engine: quicksave, disconnect, 'record demoname' (no map specified), quickload. i know what you mean, but keep the above method in mind if you're ever in a bind.

OMG it isn't Quake enough.

i didn't bother saying that this time because i've already gone over this at least twice re: RMQ, and as development continues on, it is fairly obvious that being 'quakey' is not at all the goal of this mod, so i just take it as it is. if you go into this expecting something totally new, you will have a good time with it.

Oh yeah ... the camera work and help buttons are uber.

actually, i found the incessant cutscene cameras annoying. but i think that's more because this map had to both be an 'actual' map, as well as a learning map, since it incorporated so many new things. hopefully, the actual version bundled with the complete mod (when's that coming, btw.. ;) won't have to teach so many things since that can be done in it's own tutorial map. 
 
Yes, this map (any RMQ demo map) will have to go out of its way to also spoonfeed new mechanics to the players; without the need to do that, there would be a lot less cutscenes here.

Indeed, the final episode integrated version of this map will play in a more straightforward manner. Speeding up the puzzles etc. makes sense.

Thanks for the continued feedback, those are all good points. And that's why we make demos.

A stone's throw from terrific, heh. Hopefully next time we'll hit the mark then.

Cheers,

gb 
 
I found myself balanced on a pipe above the first boiler in the dark and I thought "what is this, Mirror's Edge?" then I saw the pale blue glowy thing in the next area, and the ventilation shafts and the endless ladders, and the block puzzle, and I realized that I was actually playing Half-Life in 256 palette colours. And I fucking hate Half-Life.

However, the aesthetic level design is excellent apart from the ziggedy lava pools in the train well - I would suggest throwing about fifty more polys at them to give them nice rounded edges.

As necros said, it was not at all obvious that the boiler needed shooting repeatedly. It should show damage somehow as you attack it.

The engine, to be polite, sucks rusty goat bollocks. Seriously, you can't even overlay the HUD? And the particles are awful. Go play Darkplaces and come back when you can alphablend things.

(I gave up at the block puzzle after I trapped myself between the large block and the wall) 
 
> The engine, to be polite, sucks rusty goat bollocks. Seriously, you can't even overlay the HUD? And the particles are awful. Go play Darkplaces and come back when you can alphablend things.

Would you despise a Ferrari for not having caterpillar tracks? Is a butterfly useless because it doesn't have tusks? Does the lack of outboard matching his-n-hers pontoons make the F16 a bad fighter jet?

Otherwise keep up the constructive critisism; it's much appreciated! 
Chasecam Fix 
With chase_active 1, the camera goes into walls, creatings homs. That's with he rmqengine, in case it wasn't obvious. 
 
Chasecam isn't fixed, no.

Just to be 100% clear so that nobody has any misconceptions here. Most of the work I've done on the engine has been in the area of enabling stuff specifically required for this demo. Otherwise it's heritage is FitzQuake > QuakeSpasm, and you shouldn't expect anything beyond what they do.

The engine isn't meant to be a general purpose engine. It's meant to be a "reference implementation" that other engine coders pick up RMQ features from, put them into their engines, and then you use the other engines instead. Until such a time as that happens it serves as a stopgap so that you can play RMQ, but it's eventual goal is to become obsolete, not to replace $YOUR_FAVOURITE_ENGINE. 
Demo At Any Time 
Necros: strictly speaking, you could always do this in any engine: quicksave, disconnect, 'record demoname' (no map specified), quickload. i know what you mean, but keep the above method in mind if you're ever in a bind.

Had no idea that could be done. 
With Regard To The Tutorial Cutscene, 
Is it possible to use one single map as the only tutorial map, showcasing all the new gameplay mechanisms, instead of inserting here and there cutscenes in every RMQ map? I personally would like this approach much better. The uninvited cutscene in a gameplay map really slows down the pace, and feels rather obtrusive, especially when you are playing the map for the second or third time. In other words, it helps to reduce the replayability of the map. 
Should Put Tem In A Room 
on the start map; that makes the most sense (imo...) 
 
You don't have to shoot the buttons which activate the tutorial cutscenes.

Apart from that, yup, e1m1rq will have grapple, trap and puzzle training in a special section. Or maybe the start map. This is just for the demo. I had to explain it somehow.

Half Life in Quake, well, some maps are going to be different from others, which is a good thing IMO. It's impossible to please everybody.

It is Quake, of course. Quake allows you to do these things; grapple mods, cameras, and func_doors have been out there for years. It is simply the choice of the level designer if he/she doesn't use them. 
Thinking More About The Mod 
Quake has always been oriented towards point-and-shoot horde combat (Tronyn, JPL, Trinca) even when using, say, Quoth or Zerstorer or Hipnotic. I'll say Necros in particular doesn't do it that way (and CZG back when he was mapping).

But it isn't because Quake SP mods had to be that way, it was because evolving to more sophisticated gameplay would tell hella effort. And substantial risk.

Case in point, Nehahra is a work of art and everyone who likes Quake should play it once. But I didn't really enjoy the gameplay. The maps were beautiful, the use of new features was great. More than likely, in practice it might have been being forced to watch the demo again after every death or maybe getting tired of the advanced AI killing me. Whether it should have or shouldn't have, Nehahra didn't "take off".

Quoth was a nice incremental upgrade. Many of the Lost Chapters monsters worked very well and the incremental improvements and the rocketeers and such. Much thought and tuning was put into Quoth.

And Quoth offered more of the same providing a few extra mapping conveniences and a few extra baddies that were crafted to represent specific types of threats.

But it is still point-and-shoot.

E1M6RQ

The play was deeper, I felt like the encounters were more focused and that individual enemies represented a greater threat and challenge. It felt more personal. (The opposite is needing to spawn 40 monsters to truly threaten an experienced Quake player type ...)

The environment was clearly richer. Looking around for grapple spots, for instance. Trying to get the hang of the grapple swing. This is the best grapple I've ever experienced in Quake.

The experience with E1M6RQ, especially with the cut-scenes which were probably overused a tad ... but again everyone knows this map was fleshing out new features -- it felt like a more personal environment telling a story and giving the player a hint here and there.

I did have a little trouble learning the ropes of the game play, but honestly after cheating off Monster's homework and watching his demo for 20-30 seconds I quickly knew how to approach the map and use the tools.

Maybe in some slightly different world, this game would have been Quake 2. I can --- no kidding --- see a cohesive set of these maps plus developer docs + map editor defs --- effectively being the Quake 2 we never had. 
 
Quake has always been oriented towards point-and-shoot horde combat (Tronyn, JPL, Trinca) even when using, say, Quoth or Zerstorer or Hipnotic.

That is not true at all. 
Horde Combat 
was introduced when computers / engines became fast enough to actually handle hordes of enemies. Up until then, Quake was oriented towards fighting small groups of enemies. 
Hordes Aren't Necessary 
Something that definitely came across when I was testing this map a few days before the release. When I finally managed to complete the map on normal, the one thing that struck me was "were there really only 40 monsters in that?"

There has been a definite move away from filling maps with monsters. Not even Trinca can out-horde Tronyn.

The truth is, you really don't need that many monsters. This map, the recent map by negke, and many of the 1997-era maps are good examples of this, even though they are all completely different in concept and execution... 
Horde Combat 
personally I think some of the move to horde combat has come about due to increase in size and scale of maps. Maps as big and epic as some of the ones in recent times probably feel the need to have tons of monsters to match up the epic feel in gameplay.

Back in 1997-2000, maps were not as big and therefore small groups of monsters was the norm. 
Also 
larger areas provide more room to maneuver further decreasing threat from monsters.

plus, it just looks funny fighting a single monster in a huge room. 
To Horde Or Not To Horde 
Gb's mapping style (in this map at least) was fewer monsters and a more involved gameplay flow.

The mod must be flexible enough to support, say, Marcher or Masque style gameplay and at the same time Distrans or Negke styles, otherwise its a failed mod.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but this is Gb's take on this particular map - others in the mod as a whole are completely different (and some are his as well).

In theory we could have released, say, four or five unfinished maps or alongside e1m6rq. Instead we went for a snapshot of key things we're working on, like the grapple and pushables, to get feedback from everyone.

And in general the feedback is very good; thanks.

Also, a note about the grapple - the DM players seemed to have much less problem with it... 
Great Stuff But.. 
When will bw available thr progs.dat and (hopefully) also an .fgd for Worldcraft ? 
Open Source 
Both the QuakeC source code (those .qc files) are available in the download and the engine source code are in the download.

You use a QuakeC compiler like FTEQCC to compile .qc source which builds a progs.dat (although technically you could use Pakscape and open pak0.pak in the supplied download and just extract the progs.dat).

fteqcc compiler, gui version:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/fteqw/files/QCC%20GUI/3343/ 
And 
The fgd / other editor files should be in there as well - if it's not then I'll upload them somewhere. ((Yes, I haven't even tested the download myself :P)) 
I Was One Of The Dm Players 
and I must say that the grapple was somewhat easier to use in the dm maps than e1m6rq. I'm not sure if it was that I had not used it in a while, but to me it may have been more of the mentality change from a multiplayer to a singleplayer situation. In miltiplayer I was more inclined to hook right up to a grapple spot the second I saw it to gain speed, but in singleplayer I was like 'wone liufe, sooper seruous bidness' and tired to excrescence more caution trying to avoid being killed; which ended up getting me killed in lava. Also I feel that in the dm maps the use of the grapple was more of a choice, and was usually ued to explot the maps or swing around next to each other with the chainsaw.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hQC3nkftrk) 
FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU~ 
 
True. In multiplayer, the grapple is practically always a choice.

It should mainly be used as such in SP mapping, as should pushables; note how the lava gap near the SK can be jumped without using the grapple, and the box puzzle can be bypassed via rocket jump. However, one or two grapple or pushable challenges in a map might be OK, although not everyone's cup of beer. Both grapple points and pushables work really well in conjunction with secrets.

RMQ is a collection of tools. It is up to the level designer what they want to do with them. You can have a horde combat type map in RMQ, rest assured.

e1m3rq will end up at about 300-400 monsters on Hard, including hordespawns and huge open areas, so there are really examples for both ends of the spectrum inside the same episode, even. e1m2rq, as another example, is more about collecting keys and fighting smaller groups or single monsters largely... you can vary it, RMQ doesn't strongly encourage one direction of level design. This is partly due to the fact that we have several pretty different mappers on the team and the mod needs to serve everybody's needs. If someone has a request for a specific feature, it is usually provided eventually.

Other RMQ maps follow different formulas - it's going to be a varied conversion.

I found it a fun little challenge to keep the number of monsters down, deliberately. Although more crept in towards the end of development. I enjoy laying the horde smack down in other maps, though. Both have their place.

No doubt we have a lot of growing and polishing to do yet. Many things might change. 
Brush Model Interpolation + Camera Smoothing 
Didn't use the RMQ Engine ... have been playing using Fitz 0.85 SDL on my Mac (performs very well) and have not had the chance to try this with DarkPlaces or FTEQW or fully playing with the RMQ Engine.

It looks like there is the need for brush model interpolation in the Quake engine like when the cubes puzzle blocks drop off the ledge and the very fast "squishers" -- for lack of a better word.

Also the camera cut-scenes are great but the occasional very subtle lack of smoothness that I occasionally notice makes me wanna try this in DarkPlaces which I know has camera smoothing.

I've played Remake Quake several times, a few times the whole way through and mostly not.

Last time I'll mention this, but in the very beginning where you normally start the map on E1M6, I feel it is unfair that virtually every way of getting down to ground level gives 11 points of damage. It's not a huge problem.

One thing I definitely like about the mod is the ability to reel out the grappling hook to lower yourself. If there is a "tutorial start level" in whatever distant future, I think it would be beneficial to emphasize that feature and force the player to use it once.

I really like that this mod gives off such a insecure vibe when playing it and it feels unQuakey while being Quakey.

It really does feel like Remake Quake is an alternate Quake 2 ... whether or not that has anything to do with the project goals or not ... I'm just saying it feels like how a "true" Quake sequel with a bit different game play and several small enhancements could have turned out.

p.s. I like it when if an Ogre falls into lava, he bursts into flames! 
 
very fast "squishers"
this is nothing to do with interpolation, rather it stems from the qc governing brush movers, specifically SUB_CalcMove.

essentially, as the function is calculating how long the bmodel will take to move to it's destination, if it finds that time to be less than 0.1 seconds, it simply sets the origin to the new position.

this is kind of stupid because that's what causes things like getting stuck inside super fast movers. otoh, i'm assuming that's in place to prevent collision errors from the engine itself but there's already the sv_maxvelocity cvar to prevent that anyway, so it might even be some left over code that was obsoleted by sv_maxvelocity later on.

anyway, to fix the problem would just be a matter of setting a lower speed in the entity keys. 
 
> It looks like there is the need for brush model interpolation in the Quake engine like when the cubes puzzle blocks drop off the ledge and the very fast "squishers" -- for lack of a better word.
>
> Also the camera cut-scenes are great but the occasional very subtle lack of smoothness that I occasionally notice makes me wanna try this in DarkPlaces which I know has camera smoothing.

These are actually a protocol limitation; the default angle quantization is not sufficient for smooth rotation of either bmodels or the camera, and the default position quantization doesn't help much either.

I've had brush model interpolation in DirectQ since almost the start and it makes no difference to this kind of thing whatsoever; you just need to go to full float in the protocol to resolve it. 
Hmmm 
Thanks for the insight into the problem, Necros. Since QuakeC only runs at -- I'm thinking -- 10 frames per second that makes a lot of sense. 
Didn't Reload Thread 
... didn't see MH's comment as I was playing around noclipping around the map in DarkPlaces and looking at stuffs.

Some of the things that didn't look smooth didn't look smooth in DarkPlaces either. And a couple of things did (but not many).

Oddly enough, I swear that rotating camera cutscene didn't even happen using DarkPlaces where you destroy the first boiler ... but I was using DarkPlaces 2008-10-04 build on OS X as current DP runs hella turtle slug speed on this gfx card and current DP disables changing r_glsl to 0.

[But I digress ... but rather than discard an insightful comment even if rather offtopic -- I remember playing Nehahra first on a very old DarkPlaces that came with it and the map lighting was superb without any speed slowdown at all on whatever GeForce FX I was using back then. If the performance of ancient DarkPlaces lighting has no speed impact ... hmm project for imaginary future where I have unlimited time that will never happen.]

Either way, yeah ... the angle quantization, possibly the one shortcoming of Fitz 666 protocol from a stock Quake protocol perspective. I'm sure RMQ 999 already has and will continue to have more goodies as it evolves. (Hopefully vwep at some point, with grunts carrying different weapon models ... but even if that isn't in the plans ... all the extra king-sized treasure chest of tools available to modders is fodder enough.) 
Quake2 
Is a telling comment - and a pretty good compliment as well.

I know the real Q2 is liked by many, but I always found it a bit naff. It should have had more monstrous enemies (less humanoids) and much faster player movement. For me at least.

For the pushables to have better movement and be less 'snappy' they'll need some sort of velocity / acceleration in the Qc... 
On The Subject Of Acceleration 
Something I'd like to see would be an increase in friction for player movement, for deacceleration mainly. I think bunny hopping and ramp jumping are really awesome but I don't like the skating feeling Quake gives you.

Most of the time it isn't a problem at all, but as soon as you require some careful jumping it becomes an issue, and I think it is a factor that leads to many people disliking little platforming sections in maps. 
Q2 Player Movement 
was the same as quake wasn't it? factoring bunnyhopping in i'd say it was even faster due to the friction physics working slightly differently

Something I'd like to see would be an increase in friction for player movement, for deacceleration mainly. I think bunny hopping and ramp jumping are really awesome but I don't like the skating feeling Quake gives you.

Most of the time it isn't a problem at all, but as soon as you require some careful jumping it becomes an issue, and I think it is a factor that leads to many people disliking little platforming sections in maps.


see if you were talking about q2 there i'd understand and probably agree.. quake is much less skatey though :P and not many newer engines allow you to better control mid-air player movement, which makes it better for jump puzzles imo

you can always tweak sv_friction in the console anyways 
Correction 
'q2 player movement' should probably read 'q2 player speed', not movement as a whole 
Well. 
The atmosphere and design in this map is exceptionally good. Truly Quake++ as I hoped it would be. And that's actually enough for me to tolerate the new additions, apart from the boss combat which I godmoded through. 
 
Thanks Shambler. That's quite a compliment.

I hope the additions will be polished to a point where even long time Quake addicts can tolerate them - the feedback in this thread gives us a pretty good idea where the niggles are so far.

One of the things where RMQ is still lacking is the monster lineup; we need to flesh that out, and we have several ideas, models and a bit of concept art that might yield a few totally new enemies and bosses.

Especially high tier monsters need a boost in RMQ since the player can dish out more damage now. There is already an initiative by Supa to make shamblers more threatening / interesting, and there is ijed's idea of a DIMENSIONAL shambler. Another route to make high level monsters more threatening is the caster_level key - ie spellcasters. RMQ has a dedicated magic subsystem. I should write something about that in the mapping guide.

Anyone succumbed to a forcewall spell while playing the map yet? ;-)

Fall damage will be revised in the future (impact damage), we can have an eye on reducing the damage a little more... although you will usually find health packs wherever you have to take a drop.

The very fast movers actually had their velocity capped shortly before release - they didn't collide properly with the player at speeds much > 1000 ups. The triple slider is supposed to be faster.

The part where you block crushers with boxes (thanks TR/Zelda?) is unfinished; it will be revised. It is good to know that several people instantly figured out what to do there - this means we can use that mechanic a bit more often. Blocked crushers do need the constant noise eliminated, of course.

And once we have detail brushes, the hundreds of func_walls in this map (it does evil things to Quake's model limit) will finally cast shadows again. Try noclipping outside of the map to see what is a model and what isn't. :-)

Fitzquake 085: While Fitz is RMQ's ancestor, it is really recommended to use RMQ's own engine, for the protocol, the alpha masked textures and so forth. It is desirable to have a MacOSX build for the point release.

Thanks again to everyone playing and giving feedback about this, it's much appreciated and very helpful. 
Protip 
Try noclipping outside of the map to see what is a model and what isn't.

r_drawworld 0 
Okay More Useful Comments. 
Things I'd like fixed (in rough order):

Falling damage - too sensitive and too much for a short fall, please reduce.

Off-centre weapons - doesn't feel right, if I was shooting stuff I'd be sighting down the gun so it would be in the centre, please revert or give the player the option.

Boiler damage - radius waaaay too large and instant death. Please reduce lots.

Shambler lightning - a bit too blue, please tone down. Ditto for voreball pink.

New player sounds - please minimise as they don't really enhance the experience.

Screenshake on firing sng / rl / damage etc - ditto, please minimise as it's distracting.

Railgun - please beef up the normal shooting sounded. The damage feedback sound is good but the default sound is too weedy.

Teleporter effect - could do with being a bit more ominous / magical.

Box speed - please increase a bit as others have suggested.

Health vials - would prefer something more general/industrial and less generic fantasy.

New stuff (in no order):

Hook - fine, takes a bit of getting used to, but works well. A bit heavy on the hook secrets in this map.

Railgun - good, a fine addition gameplaywise.

New shotgun / ssg - good, a change that's quite acceptable.

New Ogres - fine.

Shards - fine.

Puzzle / box gameplay - fine, quite tastefully done. Not sure what the bit near the moving barriers was supposed to do, it didn't go anywhere?

New transparent thingy wotever effects - good, very good in some places, the big blue lightning column thing was excellent.

The map:

Design was 99% perfect, the other 1% being unsubtle coloured lighting. As before as a remake of a Quake metal map this is spot on in all aspects.

Gameplay was generally good. Monster usage was fine and progression around scenery was good. Two exceptions: too many death traps (crusher jumps, boilers) and the end battle seemed ridiculously hard.

Overall:

See my initial comment. The additions were more tolerable than expected. I think there are some obvious tweaks to make. The revamped graphical / design style is very good and shows a lot of promise. 
Dumb Question Probably 
I have the texture packs in Quake\id1, and I'm running RMQEngine-Win32, but it keeps starting up with no textures on anything - not models, not the map, etc. Err... what am I doing wrong? 
Thanks 
The only one I don't get is Teleporter effect - could do with being a bit more ominous / magical. you mean when a monster teleports in?

Not to give too much away, but the boss can be toned down for this level in final version, since he'll make a reappearance.

The health vials are worldtype dependant, we just haven't made the metal ones yet.

Good tip OTP - didn't know that. 
@Tronyn 
Texture packs ...

FitzQuake and hence Quakespasm and the RMQEngine do not support loading external textures from pak files.

You must extract the .tga textures to quake\id1\textures 
Further, 
I retract the issue with the boss combat, the actual combat is fine, it's just those retarded boilers again. Explode them first and it's quite reasonable.

Teleporter effect, the one when the teleporter texture appears in a wobbly oval. It's okay but could be more worrying. Not a biggie anyway.

I've played this a couple of times now, it is very cool overall. 
Tronyn 
Um 
FitzQuake and hence Quakespasm and the RMQEngine do not support loading external textures from pak files.

that is totally untrue. quoth 1 has a bunch of external textures in pak0.pak for ne_marb and they load just fine. this was way back on FQ080, and 085 as well as quakespasm still have that functionality. 
Misinterpretation Then ... 
Some posts in this thread led me to believe that FitzQuake couldn't load textures from pak files.

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60172

Admittedly I have never tried loading textures from pak files in FitzQuake and instead extracted them solely due to that [false] information.

Baker -1 for repeating wrong imformation then. My bad. 
 
There was an issue with pcx textures in pak files at one time, but it has been fixed. 
Yay I Got It Working 
freakin sweet so far. expect this review and others soon. 
Thanks 
Will take a look at the tele fx again as well. It's not great I know. Hm.

Maybe I could duplicate the mesh inside all .mdls to make it take the shape of the creature...

Not sure about the texture problem since I haven't got them loaded up - email gb or mh. 
 
good feedback, we will address those issues.

The colored lighting in this map:

I had to switch tools literally hours before release, because as soon as I started turning a lot of things into func_walls, hmap2 broke. First the qbsp part, then the light.

So I switched to treeqbsp and mh's colored light version of Bengtlight but kept the same light values - no time left for tweaking them since Supa and I really, really wanted to make this deadline. Expect colored light tweaking in the future... the old version looked slightly better with less problems, but then the breakage came :-/

It is a real problem that we have no active Quake tools coder. Maybe if we all start sucking up to Rich Whitehouse or someone of that caliber, he'll spend a weekend on a unified version of Bengt-tools with the rotating bmodel fixes from hmap2 ported and the colored lights and multithreading merged in... crossplatform hopefully :-/

hmap2 is a good compiler, but it is a friggin' diva. It has very strong ideas about what the mapper is and isn't supposed to do. That approach isn't working though for something like level design. Tools need to be pretty lenient.

External textures: I didn't use .pk3 for those since I wasn't sure if our own engine supported it. Again, immense pressure due to the deadline. So I zipped them. You need the tga files in Quake/id1/textures.

Expect the QRP addon pack to grow in the future. I have contact to moondrunk and inkub0 (hexen 2 retexture pack guy), and the latter said he'd like to help with creating missing textures. moondrunk offered his help as well. I myself am pretty good at butchering textures by now, and I may have more time for that now.

New HUD etc. are in the future, I think.

gb 
 
PK3 support is in the future and will be just a rip from the Q3A source; I prefer approaches that don't require use of external libraries, and our experience of people having difficulties with getting the SDL DLLs on their machines validates this preference.

I've done some hacking on the tools source but I'm not a tools guy and my own experience of them is *very* limited, in particular of qbsp and vis. Basically I have low confidence in my own ability to deliver any kind of major tools work, and I'd second GB's call for a dedicated tools person.

Yeah, there are problems with certain textures on certain hardware with the current engine build. This is an unfortunate consequence of an older generation of hardware (the first generation of DX9-level hardware specifically) where support for the full OpenGL 2.0 feature set was claimed by this hardware but didn't actually exist. This one needs to be put down to a lesson learned. 
Tele Thing 
Will take a look at the tele fx again as well. It's not great I know. Hm.

it always looked kind of placeholder. i'd vote for an alpha sprite of some kind instead, like an explosion kind of graphic (emphasis on the 'kind of', not literally an explosion) 
Been Trying Out The Engine A Bit On Stuff... 
Really like it's performance, runs big stuff better than any other engine I tried :)

However, after hopping back and forth between it and others I can confirm it has some kind of mouse lag which is pretty annoying :(

Any command line stuff/variables that might be able to change it? 
 
I'll just write this here since I keep forgetting to mention it. It seems that all SDL-based engines have a different mouse sensitivity scale than the standard windows quake engines. (This was also true for Sauerbraten/Cube before Aard fixed it, i think)

This seems like an easy thing to correct; while it's not hard for a user to fix their sensitivity every time they switch engines, it's nice when cvars and cvar values retain their meanings across engines. 
 
> I'll just write this here since I keep forgetting to mention it. It seems that all SDL-based engines have a different mouse sensitivity scale than the standard windows quake engines. (This was also true for Sauerbraten/Cube before Aard fixed it, i think)

Yeah, that would be true. I ain't done much work on input via SDL, but it's definitely different. I'm suspecting that the primary reason why is that Quake by default uses the mouse acceleration settings from your control panel, whereas SDL doesn't, but I need to dig a little to confirm this. 
 
> Really like it's performance, runs big stuff better than any other engine I tried :)

It should, it's been built to. Really though, it means a lot to me to hear people saying this. Cool! :) 
Just Gave It Another Little Poke Btw 
Was a bad description of mine to call it lag, it's acceleration, and definately not just a sensitivity effect :(

If you want me to try any cvars or something I can try fiddling with it :p 
Shaders? 
I became a little curious, as playing the test maps with the QRM engine from Assembly were much more easy.
I formatted my computer and installed winxp.
Now as I start up the e1m6qr map there's a warning:

failed to create GLSL shaders

Then my computer boosts and keeps hanging.
I don't know what it is causing. 
 
That looks like a driver issue (or else you've got really old and really bad hardware). It does have an alternate rendering path for when shaders aren't available (the same as original QuakeSpasm's) but most hardware from the last 10 or so years shouldn't need it. Try updating your drivers. 
 
> Was a bad description of mine to call it lag, it's acceleration, and definately not just a sensitivity effect :(

Done some research and can confirm that this is an SDL problem. SDL doesn't provide an API for adjusting mouse acceleration parameters (aside from a highly dubious looking putenv thing which doesn't appear to be portable) so it seems necessary to jump into OS specfic code. I'll have a look and see how other SDL apps handle it.

> If you want me to try any cvars or something I can try fiddling with it :p

No cvars; I really haven't touched the input code so what you get here is the same as what you get in QuakeSpasm. 
Just Fyi 
Apparently changing resolution can fix it. The same thing happens in Directquake... sometimes it starts with lag but randomly changing the resolution to something different fixes it.

Odd but hey ho. 
 
Do shotguns still explode underwater? 
 
No. They do possibly damage you if you try doing that, but you keep the weapon. 
Thoughts 
Very poor framerates in a few areas for some reason and also some of my sounds disappeared a couple times. The ambient sounds would stay, but weapon and monster sounds disappeared . A reload fixed it.

The sound setting in the readme made no diff. Running darkplaces as well - I'm not keen on installing extra dll shit just to play some engine when I like dp.

ssg was confusing as to why some shamblers would go down in like 2 shots. I didn't really notice monsters dishing out hella pain like some have mentioned - maybe I didn't get hit enough times. Try not to go overboard on changing all the weapon/attack damage and health (of player and monsters) too much. It'll just end up being a 'oh look i fckd with all the gameplay settings for no reason' mod that so many other games have.
Having said that, I don't mind a more powerful ssg and tougher enemies - they are pretty fkn easy after playing the game for 15 yrs. Just don't overdo it.

Horde combat has been done enough. Spawning into a map and seeing i've got 600 monsters to kill is just daunting and offputting. So if there's an in-between in RMQ that'd be great.

Just in this map, there could have probably been another 20 monsters or so to give it a bit more action, however if some of the other maps are more action oriented then that's okay.

Didn't like the hook. Controls were awkward... apparently press weapon next to real in. Press it, move a foot. um okay.... now what. Didn't realise for 30secs that you need to keep hitting it repeatedly for it to work. For some reason after I restarted the game the hook become unbound, so I just noclipped the hook areas. The puzzle was ok once, I hope there aren't too many more though, personally not a fan of puzzle games. Boxes move way too slow.

God moded the end because chthon appearing was bouncing me the fuck all over the place with ridiculous framerates. I actually thought the new model was very cool. Old chthon is just that... old. And the button/lightning thing has been done to death now.

Are any of the monsters going to be reskinned?

Fall damage = bad. Make it the same as standard.

The level itself looked really good though! Strange, but good. 
 
You don't need to install the dll, just copy the dll files to the quake folder 
 
Can I ask the developers what's the rationale for making so many weapons handicapped under water? 
 
> Very poor framerates in a few areas for some reason and also some of my sounds disappeared a couple times. The ambient sounds would stay, but weapon and monster sounds disappeared . A reload fixed it.

You're going to get this in most other Quake engines to be honest; they're just not capable of handling the heavy brushwork and dynamic lighting efficiently. The RMQ engine *is* capable of handling them, and is highly recommended unless for some reason you're unable to use it.

> I'm not keen on installing extra dll shit just to play some engine when I like dp.

OK, this is something that a few have had trouble with now and obviously needs to be addressed. Serious question though - even if you didn't need the SDL dlls for RMQ would you have used DP anyway?

> Horde combat has been done enough. Spawning into a map and seeing i've got 600 monsters to kill is just daunting and offputting. So if there's an in-between in RMQ that'd be great...Just in this map, there could have probably been another 20 monsters or so to give it a bit more action, however if some of the other maps are more action oriented then that's okay.

There's plenty of variety in the other maps. This one is just a snapshot of one style, which is more of a tricks-n-traps style. Did you play on Easy, by the way? Easy is deliberately monster-light.

> For some reason after I restarted the game the hook become unbound

Another engine bug that the RMQ engine fixes. 
 
Yeah, probably still would have used DP anyway. If it's the full release i'd install dlls then probably. Just when it's 1 map i'm too lazy and will use dp instead.

Nah played on medium I think. there were 40 something monsters...

If the framerate is DP's fault, then nothing much you can do about that. We don't want limitations just because other engines can't it, i'd rather use the rmq engine for sure. The framerate wasn't that bad anyway, just in a few areas and the final battle. 
Replies 
Yeah, the engine is the way to go, for now at least. We support DP, but not much. We're busy putting everything together to work under our own stuff right now, external support is low on the to do list. For final release we will be giving such things a lot more attention, but for now the dev process means we shouldn't.

We're looking at the QSB format quite a lot, even though its not really what we're doing. In theory a Quoth or Nehahra map will run inside RMQ. In practice, if special triggers and cinematics are used, probably not - at least yet.

The SSG is an elephant gun - from point blank it'll make mincemeat of most enemies, although we're still tweaking lots of things. Shamblers will become more resistant to damage in general, as well as gaining more fearsome abilities that fit their personality, for want of a better description. At long range the SSG is next to useless.

A lot of people like the hook - it took me longer than most to get used to it as well though. I think it's more of an interface / comfort zone of playing thing than the hook itself, which works pretty well once you get used to it. The hook is a lot of fun, but don't expect to see it in every level. Different levels with have different toys to play with.

Horde combat will still happen, depending on the mapper. Basically the monsters are more dangerous and less predictable, and the player weapons more lethal when used properly. This allows for 400 knight slaughter fests (they will gain proper horde tactics as opposed to id1 AI clusterfucking) or 3 knight measured battles.

We could just have bumped monster health to cope with the weapons, but that's the easy way out.

Monster reskinning or hirez textures aren't our focus. Maybe one day they will be - we are supporting hirez level textures. Since the monster skins are in progress making highrez versions is best saved for later, so we can decide on a format. Maybe just a warp style sharpening up, keeping the grittiness.

For water combat, we're wanting it to be completely different from the original game, something brand new but in keeping with the spirit of it. There's additional aquatic enemies in the works and under discussion not used in the level and the player is limited to melee, grenades and nails. As always, this is in progress - we've got a lot of ground to cover to get it right.

This means making a level with a lot of water sections so we can playtest the fuck out of it and get what feels right and makes sense in the Quake universe.

Thanks for the comments and questions :) 
 
Shamblers will become more resistant to damage in general

And that's different from just raising their HP how? 
In ReMaKeQuake, Anything Is Possible 
They dance around bullets, duh! 
Yep 
Our Shamblers will DANCE BACK! 
And Then They Wonder Why I Left The Team 
 
 
that was re: ijed, not re: dodging shamblers 
Hm 
The answer was - it's just a health raise.



































And some salsa lessons. 
 
And Then They Wonder Why I Left The Team

because shamblers' healths are being raised?

you've lost me. there's no need to be cryptic about it... if there's a reason you left then just come out and say it normally? i don't think anyone will be pissed off about that. the above-quoted post just seemed a bit, well, bitchy. as did post #29, which left people scratching their heads a bit on the trac... 
Kona 
i've found DP is just a slow engine in general. i don't really understand why, but even with everything disabled/set to lowest, it's still not as fast as fitzquake engines. 
 
SDL.dll is used for a ton of games. It's a well known crossplatform graphics/audio/network library for games. Many gamers will already be using this without even noticing. idtech4 uses it for example, so do several Quake / Quake 2 engines.

I made a packaging error by not putting them in the toplevel directory, but then I was rather exhausted and it was the 24th. We'll fix that in future releases. Anyway, our pal Baker made a nifty Windows installer for RMQ (because he rocks), which is now advertised in huge red letters on the RMQ blog.

Low FPS in Darkplaces: This is unfortunate; however we have little influence when it comes to that. Our own engine runs these maps like a lean, mean machine. Without wanting to sound respectless, consider asking Lord Havoc about performance improvements in DP.

Fall damage, point taken; I will compile a list from the feedback in this thread and we will go and fix these issues in a point release.

Underwater combat will develop a lot in the future, don't judge it by its current state. The weapon malfunctions are an extension of the Shaft behaviour. At least they don't explode anymore.

Let's see what comes of it. 
 
In Soviet Russia bullets dance around Shamblers!

The key point is that *everything* is still work-in-progress. The purpose of a demo like this one is to get player feedback, gauge where things are going in the right direction (or not!) and give you something cool and different to hopefully have some fun with. Negative comments (on a level above "this is shit, I don't like it") or indications of where things don't work out as well for you as they should are *extremely* valuable here. 
Yeah 
It's a demo. While we hope you have fun playing it, you not having fun and telling us why is probably more useful, long term. 
 
Dunno about other players, but I have a tendency in Quake to fight monsters at very close range, ie point blank.

Hell Knights, Shamblers, Ogres, hell pretty much all monsters except the Vore and Scrags sometimes I try to get real close to with the ssg. So with the RMQ ssg being really powerful up close, that's gonna make for some fun gameplay. Getting as close as possible will become a big part of the gameplay - which is good because that sort of gameplay is more intense. 
 
We realized Shamblers should be more frightening in general, so several things are being done about that - hitpoints are only part of the story. Supa made a visual change to their attack lately which had me picking my jaw back off the table when I saw it... there are many things that can be done to make monsters more imposing. Raising one monster's HP doesn't mean you can't have a general policy of not doing that, either. Being dogmatic about it is counterproductive...

The getting up close part is where berserk ogres (the double chainsaw ones) come in nicely btw. It also happens that you don't manage to hit an ogre head on, so it's not a guaranteed one hit kill. You might not even have the SSG at all times, either. :-)

Shambler dancing might come to an end, btw. With or without bullets.

Right now I think that while it's good to have grunts at cannon fodder level (DOOM style), the high tier baddies should perhaps become more of a challenge. We have several developments in RMQ which could eventually contribute to that.

We did focus a lot on the lower tier monsters and things like ogres, knights... and I'm certainly guilty of focusing on non-monster challenges for quite a while. There are however new monsters in other maps (new bosses, even). There's quite some stuff that people haven't seen yet because no release featured it so far. For example, you're not going to play e1m6rq as Quakeguy anymore. And so forth.

Demos are snapshots of parts of the mod at a certain time. The map from Demo 1, e3m1rq, looks totally different by now. It's just motivating to have a release deadline and it produces feedback, in turn helping us to improve stuff. We're otherwise quite closed, so it's nice to have something to show as well.

/rambling 
General Questions 
Any plans for Hipnotic force-fields or the Hipnotic "Earthquake" type of effect? Just curious. I always liked the Starship maps which used the Hipnotic force-fields and I've always liked the "earthquake" screenshake selectively used in "dramatic" sequences.

[re: DarkPlaces ... runs Warpspasm or Travail very poorly and Tronyn/PM had to write DP-specific progs.dat for New Soul of Evil and ARWOP ... personally, I'm rather disappointed in anyone who doesn't know DarkPlaces has issues with both big maps and heavy QuakeC modifications *AND* is a long time Func_Msgboard participant. This should not be news to anyone. DarkPlaces is a technical marvel but always has had the eye on the future, not backwards compatibility.] 
Those 
Are both already in - like Gb says, there's a lot we haven't shown yet. A map that did show all the features would have to be just a feature demo map, like the one(s) for Quoth2. Looking inside the source /progs folder could be a decent teaser, as could reading the mapping kit page on the blog.

Btw - everything on the mapping kit page is in the current progs and will work if you want to experiment.

The weapons concept was to make them a toolbox as opposed to a higher number = better. So now, for example, the SG does have advantages over the SSG (although minor, tbh) and the NG has a very genuine advantage over the SNG. The misfiring underwater is part of this as well, but still WIP as stated before. 
 
Shambler dancing might come to an end, btw.

this would be a great shame. shambler dancing is very technical and has a nice random elemental as well. it's exciting to pull it off right. removing it would basically be 'dumbing it down'.

re: DarkPlaces ... runs Warpspasm or Travail very poorly and Tronyn/PM had to write DP-specific progs.dat for New Soul of Evil and ARWOP ... personally, I'm rather disappointed in anyone who doesn't know DarkPlaces has issues with both big maps and heavy QuakeC modifications *AND* is a long time Func_Msgboard participant. This should not be news to anyone. DarkPlaces is a technical marvel but always has had the eye on the future, not backwards compatibility.

this would be DP's problem. it's basically another limitation except from the opposite side of the engine spectrum. 
Well 
We have to be careful. I can't remember the last time I didn't dance a Shambler, even when it wasn't necessary - unless it was miles away.

Personally I see the dance tactic as something of an exploit. It wasn't intended by id, but then neither was rocket jumping, at first.

As of the past couple of days it has a few new abilities to deal with cheeky slipgaters who try to take advantage of 1996 ai routines. There's a partially complete dimensional behaviour as well, which I'm thinking to tie into basic things like pain and alert. Its already in for losing sight of self_enemy and death.

Part of the concept, for me at least, is to provoke the same emotional response from the player when they first played it ten years ago.

Zombies rising out of water was creepy, and fucking awesome, back then. Times have changed. After many years of gaming history we don't need more graphics, just more game play.

Now, when those zombies rise out of the water I'd like something slightly different to happen each time.

Facing a Shambler shouldn't be run of the mill, even to an old hand player. Because of all the skill level manipulation (yes, NM is significantly more difficult than hard, easy significantly easier than normal, etc.) we've included nobody can complain unless they just flat out don't like the concept.

Rambling. But part of what we're doing is making a massive toolkit. If we tend to focus on the tools we're using to re-make the original maps as we want to then thats just the way things are.

Damn. Where's the top hat icon. 
Or I'm A Bit Pissed And Thinking Hat Icon 
 
We Need Hats In RMQ... 
... And achievements! :P

BTW, I haven't said that enough: great work you guys (and gals!) have done here. I can't wait for the rest of the maps. 
 
Thanks. It seems this demo has been much more warmly received than the previous ones, so that indicates we're going in the right direction.

It's nice when hard work is appreciated - Gb really went to town on this one. 
Just Tried The RMQ Engine 
and i believe it would be my default quake engine . runs much smoother than fitzquake in my system

but i've found a couple of issues
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/rmq0000.jpg - gibbed head and weird crosshair possition

and
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/rmq0001.jpg

could you just rid of that shaft firing effect
back to the normal id LG effect

anyway good job guys 
Oh, Btw 
everytime i launch quake
rmq overwrites my config.cfg
with this error
execing config.cfg
Cbuf_AddText: overflow


what gives? 
 
That's weird about the head; can you try this latest public version of the engine and see if it still happens? Unless you're using that already, in which case we need to upload a fixed release...

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/tools/windows/engines/rmqengine_20110126.zip

The shaft effect is a blue colored dynamic light; maybe we can whiten it some more.

execing config.cfg
Cbuf_AddText: overflow

This would be mh's department; thanks for the report, keep reporting b00gs everyone. 
One More Note 
That's weird about the head; can you try this latest public version of the engine and see if it still happens? Unless you're using that already, in which case we need to upload a fixed release...
i'm using the version of rmq from the demo2, you've been released recently.
but i forgot to add, i run rmq WITHOUT the RMQ stuff (progs, models etc), just like fitzq/aguirre'squake
i should try it with properly intalled rmqmod

The shaft effect is a blue colored dynamic light; maybe we can whiten it some more.
there is no need to whiten the beam
"r_colored_dynamic_light 0" disable that feature 
 
There is a post-demo2 release of only the engine here:

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/tools/windows/engines/rmqengine_20110126.zip

which fixes a couple issues. The engine should not depend on any of the rmq-mod stuff, it's simply a derivative of FitzquakeSDL/Quakespasm.

It should work on its own. 
 
The engine should not depend on any of the rmq-mod stuff, it's simply a derivative of FitzquakeSDL/Quakespasm.

It should work on its own.


so this is rmq bug (gibbed head model) and also crosshair position is wrong, after changing resolution (at least to me) 
 
is there any way to bring back proper sized particles? the particles are downright tiny in this engine. probably the smallest particles in any engine, afaik. even quakeworld client was larger. 
 
> is there any way to bring back proper sized particles? the particles are downright tiny in this engine. probably the smallest particles in any engine, afaik. even quakeworld client was larger.

OK, I know why that's happening. It *shouldn't* happen and it's certainly not intentional. I'm willing to bet that you also get really small particles in Quake II? 
 
Hmmm - did you use the new build from here: http://kneedeepinthedoomed.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/new-engine-release/

It should be fixed in that. 
Thanks, Yeah 
that fixed it! :) no idea about q2 particles though, i can't run the stock q2 engine.

also, any particular reason why you reverted fitzquake's superior sprite pixel smoothing for the old fashioned way that all other engines use?
i am talking about the way it knew when to preserve hard edges and when not to. not sure how else to describe it. :) 
 
> also, any particular reason why you reverted fitzquake's superior sprite pixel smoothing for the old fashioned way that all other engines use?

Let me look at the code later on and tell you then. Right now - and off the top of my head - it's either an unintentional bug or it interfered with something else that was deemed more important, but I'll need to check the code first to confirm (it's at home and I'm in work!) 
 
Great, new engine works 100% on my Ati victrola 9000 pro. Thanks! 
Curious Bug For RMQengine. 
I have a little scripted sequence of a crane swinging round. It turns on two axes, and for some reason in RMQ engine only, and furthermore only on one axis, it swings the wrong way :p

Hypnotic entities of course. Bloody things. 
 
I got the same thing with one of my rotating bridges (non Hipnotic rotation), so I guess xyz got jumbled somewhere. 
Small Particles 
is there any way to bring back proper sized particles? the particles are downright tiny in this engine. probably the smallest particles in any engine, afaik. even quakeworld client was larger.

just regarding this, i didn't notice the particles had shrunk until i reverted to quakespasm for rubicon2 and clocked how much bigger they were (likewise for the latest engine build). i actually prefer them smaller, is there any way to have it toggleable? 
 
I could just add an r_particlesize cvar, since everybody seems to have different preferences. Seems to make the most sense. 
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