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Remake Quake Tedious Beef Thread.
This thread is more for fun that anything else. There a conservative streak in me, but a radical streak too. I appreciate both sides of the coin.

That being said, although I do not find Spirit's archiving limits unreasonable, I do find some of the objections to the body of work in Remake Quake totally unreasonable.

Some people criticize Remake Quake as not being "Quake" enough and cry about it.

My personal opinion is that aside from Negke --- who I believe is an especially unique enigma unmatched in his unconventional and perfectionist style --- that the 1,376 id1 maps at Quaddicted adequately cover everything of substance that is ever gonna be done with id1 Quake.

I think Remake Quake is doing exactly the kind of thing that Carmack envisioned when he open-sourced damn near all of Quake: experimentation and risky creativity.

Seriously, aside from a puzzle and a grappling hook [Oh noes ... 3D navigations!! OMG ... ] and a vial here and there Remake Quake is Quake to the core. Just with more imagination.

It doesn't have any of Mr. Fribble's derided blinking T-Shirts or any silly bling. Instead it has awesome sleeping Shamblers.

In the words of the sometimes objectionable, and yet immortally wise and always appreciated for he who is/was/continues-to-be, Shambler ...

Discuss. Preferably without references to bees. ;)
Btw Fu For ... 
Hating that one Tronyn mod with the wand and the music and the zombies and the trees. I liked it, played it 6 times. It was not "tuned" admittedly, those zombie bastards were hard to deal with. I just don't see the any decent argument for infinite "sameness" where "infinite sameness" has been beaten to death 10x over.

Really! 
Dm Is Not Sp Enough 
boo hoo :) 
 
It depends on how you define "ultra-conservative". Taken to it's logical extreme, it could mean that anything that's not ID1 content and gameplay is "not Quake".

My belief is that - even in the pre-GPL days - Quake was designed from the outset to be user-modifiable. There is plenty of evidence to back that up.

As soon as something is user-modifiable the ball is so far out of the park that it's actually in the next city. If something *can* be done then it *will* be done. You can either reject that and stick to your guns, or accept and embrace it in all it's glory.

By the "Quake was designed to be user-modifable from the outset" yardstick, it's fair to say that *everything* *is* Quake. Even the remake of Wolf3D e1m1 that's hosted on Quaddicted (which to my mind is even less "Quake" than RMQ could ever be) *is* "Quake". That is all. 
Fuck This Thread Fuck You Fuck RemakeQuake 
 
 
Are you really so vain as to make a thread crying about the critisms of your shitty ass mod? QfuckingQ, kill yourself. 
Czg 
how's your hardware adventure? 
Who Said Rmq Wasn't 'quake' Enough? 
And where was it said? I don't recall that happening. 
Uh ... Thanks Czg & Scampers 
... but I an not involved in Remake Quake.

But having diverse interests and likes ranging from stock Quake to Quakelife [an FTEQW-based Half-Life adaption of sorts to Quake] to Kurok and various total conversions I am curious to the *real* objections to modifications found in Remake Quake.

CZG, I guess aside from being an elite mapper, you are are a "gaylord" ... enough said. ;) 
I Did. Quaddicted Was The Subject. 
Baker is not part of that team!

mh: "Quake" means different things to different people. RMQ changes all the weapons and monsters which makes it a different game for me.

To give some perspective, QuakeWorld is vastly more like the original Quake than RMQ is. Now ask Netquake players what they think of it. :-) 
 
Apologies, I was confused.

RMQ is still a shitty ass mod. 
Well Chiefly Of All; The New Sounds In RemakeQuake Are Complete Shit 
Vondur I got my mobo and cpu today and now I'm just waiting for the new ram really, and then I gotta go out and get a gpu as well, couldn't find one earlier...
Hopefully will have everything up and running on Thursday or something? 
You Didn't Seriously 
just make a fucking forum thread about this, did you. Your site/blog whine was already pretty borderline stupid, but this is just getting pathetic. 
Now It's On! 
By the way Von I have a really cool rumor to tell you guys when I get back on IRC so remind me about that or I will forget. 
Czg Sure 
czg sure 
Czg 
 
 
Your site/blog whine was already pretty borderline stupid, but this is just getting pathetic.

that was gb with the site/blog whine, not baker unless i'm missing something? please use your name.

i think this discussion was covered enough already at quaddicted 
Heh 
must there be such animosity over this, actually the impression that I get is that we all basically agree on what a Q1SP is. 
Also 
Quakelife [an FTEQW-based Half-Life adaption of sorts to Quake]

link? 
I Saw This Thread And Regretted Logging In 
 
Errrr 
Could the question in the thread title be replied by a simple yes and no ? 
 
I am curious to the *real* objections to modifications found in Remake Quake.

Some of them are hailed as improvements while they really aren't (monstercount removed, increased fall damage, "rebalanced" weapons where the DBS is more powerful than the RL), some are annoying but won't be changed due to stubbornness (the "high quality" sounds, monsters being able to one-hit kill you because gb is clinging back to the roguelike days), some just contradict eachother ("let's give new behaviors to all the monsters and then have them either die in 5 seconds or kill the player in 5 seconds", or the recent "giving monsters more HP is bad, but making Shamblers more resistant to all damage is totally different" gem) 
Well There's One Annoying Thing That *was* Removed... 
JUST KIDDING OTP XD

but seriously. all that stuff was already raised numerous times and will prob be under review at a time in the future when people on the team don't have loads of other shit to do. give it time... 
Wow 
OTP basically said exactly what I feel. He is my new favourite poster here.

Anyway, close this thread and ban everyone in it. 
-_- 
The OP asked for real objections so I posted them...

To Baker:

My personal opinion is (...) that the 1,376 id1 maps at Quaddicted adequately cover everything of substance that is ever gonna be done with id1 Quake.

You were saying the same thing before, and then Rubicon2 came out.

Dismissing the critics of the mod as "ultra conservatives" or "defenders of the one true Quake" is borderline arrogant, I sort of wish you guys would finally get that message across. (becase you hadn't, in the ~17 months I had been involved with the project) 
Czg 
Let's make out. 
*GETS THE POPCORN* 
 
That Said 
I don't hold any personal grudges here and I don't regret being a part of the team. I do however feel that for every one thing you get right (Rage, Cauteriser, ZKnights, Boss2, all the great brushwork), there come two that set the project back (what I listed above). 
Watch That Space, Or Not 
We'll get plenty more wrong. 
 
Nobody is dismissing criticisms; that's a very narrow minded view to take. The whole *purpose* of a *demo* release is to get something out and guage feedback. This holds true of any mod or map. *Every* development cycle involves trying out ideas and seeing what happens, and sometimes the people involved in the development can get too close to what it is they're developing and not see what is obvious to everyone else.

Treating a *demo* release as if it's something carved in stone from the top of mount Sinai - "THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE AND THEY SHALL NOT CHANGE" - only demonstrates your own lack of basic understanding. Treating an interim release as if it were the final product and judging the final product based on that interim release is plain stupid, no? This also holds true of any map or mod.

Lots of previously released content has already been changed based on feedback. I know because I gave some of that feedback at the time - and not all of it good either - but at least I tried to be constructive and generally enthusiastic about the overall goals. What a novel concept! 
My Two Pence 
For what it's worth.
Quoth and other mods like it have an advantage immediately over RMQ because you could make a map in Quoth that has nothing in it but what you like. Personally I don't like a couple of the new monsters or the plasma gun. But that's cool, the mod doesn't force me to use them, and I can happily make stuff that is the Quake I know and love but with the extra bits I like bolted on.

With RMQ, if you wanted to use it you are forced to deal with all of the other decisions the team made. Example: Instead of changing the basic behaviour of Monsters, just add a Super version (with an obvious reskin) that features the new abilities and keep the original as well. Instead of making the SSG super powered, just add a third tier shotgun etc.

To me mods are best when they are adding new elements that were otherwise absent, rather than adding stuff that may well be really cool but is otherwise already covered anyway (new gameplay opportunities over 'style' I suppose). I've already posted that I don't like Nailgun ogres, but in RMQ I don't understand the point of the dual chainsaw ogre. You already have Dogs, Knights, DKnights or Fiends for melee, think about new and interesting attacks to add, rather than a new form of something you already have. Quake has no version of the Mancabus, or Archvile, or Revenant (Vores seriously don't count) so there already you have three forms of attack that are not accounted for (and aren't even that original :p), and each would be more adaptable and useful than yet another melee monster.


Man if you want to make posts fly, get the drama rolling. 
Medium Rare!!!!!!!1111111!!!1! 
Mancubus = Rocket Ogre? 
 
 
It's more about being quite tough and spreadfire (a spread that can be dodged unlike a shotgun). I dunno I don't recall seeing your rocket ogres :) 
Good Ideas There 
Third shotty. I have already said I'm not keen on the new SSG. 
Slight Request 
I noticed in the old e1m6 rmq demo, shooting ogres with the DBS knocked them back. This is a cool feature, I'd like it back, it adds an extra feeling of WHABAM to one of my favourite weapons. I _still_ think the Q1 DBS is underpowered and I'd be happy to have it more powerful; Doom2 and Quake2 got it better I thought. 
 
Well, the old Quake Shotgun was really a pistol, and the old DBS was really the shotgun, so the RMQ DBS should be the real double barrel shotgun 
Another Good Point 
The SG does fire like a pistol, except for the spread thing. A big-assed Desert Eagle.50 would have been better. 
 
Yeah the additional tier of shotgun is only really necessary if you are going to add more high tier monsters (like Doom 2) or larger numbers of regular monsters (again like Doom 2).

Doom also keeps the chaingun useful despite it's awful damage because it's accurate and stunlocks many monsters really well. Rocket launcher stays useful because it's the same damage per-shot but accurate and faster firing, so the chaingun and rocket launcher are Doom's sniping weapons, and vital to use on maps designed around that. :E

hmm, I've probably played way too much Doom. I should lie down. 
Double Barrel Pistol 
0h 
Nevermind 
SSG Vs. Rocket Launcher (and Pistol) 
otp seems determined to throw rotten tomatoes at us for now, which is a staple of any good comedy. Thanks for that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IVFaRTJmmY

The SSG only outputs its monstrous amount of damage at point blank range, while the RL is less useful at exactly that range due to splash damage and self hurt.

That is exactly what a toolkit weapon system should do. The two weapons excel in very different situations.

I admit this is pretty complex.

SG vs Pistol: This observation is correct, you could substitute a kind of pistol for Quake's SG with very little effect on the gameplay (Hellsmash does this, Malice does this as well).

Fall damage and removal of monstercount have probably been on the nerf list even before otp left the team, so I have no idea why this keeps coming up, and I guess once these get fixed (next demo) it will be something else.

One of Quoth's principles is to not go against the player's expectations. Quoth also doesn't do requests. These two restrictions were pretty much the incentive for RMQ as a mod. As a smart person once said, requests are what made RMQ.

And if someone wants just the Elder Ogre in his map, well, RMQ is open source - go and rip it and start your own thing.

We won't stop you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhmjnYKlVnM&feature=related 
Hmm 
That's kind of his point; 'oh, he's just throwing rotten tomatoes'.

Try actually taking some of the critisism on board rather than just arrogantly going 'well, we know better, so whatever'.

Not that I'd expect anything less from a mod that has not only been in development for how many years now but is continually referenced in posts saying how x, y or z is 'in remake quake you know (because it's _objectively_ the best thing ever)' in response to completely unrelated topics. No-one cares anymore. Finish it, release it and stfu about it in the meantime. 
But 
Gb goes on to respond to each of the points in turn after the rotten tomatoes comment. Rj in his posts is also very clear headed and patient.

The team Quoth got one thing perfectly right the first time round - they didn't want feedback from nobody online that wasn't carefully hand-picked.

As mentioned, we wanted to do something more accessible.

...critisism on board rather than just arrogantly going...

In fact, this (thread) is the first lump of beer we haven't chewed over. There are some worthwhile comments in here, so we probably will sooner or later.

Finish it, release it and stfu about it in the meantime.

Ok! 
Lump Of Beer 
Hm. 'beef' I meant.

Going to go get a beer. 
 
If this thread had started out as a source of valid criticism then things would have been different, but (aside from Baker's OP) it's not until post #31 that the first meaningful and useful thing was said. Until that point it was just the same old tired faces making the same old tired snide comments and trying to paint the situation as if the RMQ team had some kind of major butthurt on.

Meanwhile the thread that Baker (who is not even a member of the team - do your basic research folks) started got renamed to support that butthurt hypothesis.

Criticism aimed at improving the project is always a good thing. "Fuck This Thread Fuck You Fuck RemakeQuake", "RMQ is still a shitty ass mod", "just make a fucking forum thread about this, did you. Your site/blog whine was already pretty borderline stupid, but this is just getting pathetic" on the other hand says more about the people making these comments than anything else.

So what on earth is the problem here anyway? A bunch of folks decide to get together to make some content that does X, Y and Z and publicly talk about what they're up to. A bunch of other folks decide to get their panties in a huge fucking twist over it. Please enlighten me. 
I'm Really Amazed 
at the amount of animosity RMQ has generated, I mean, how is not possible for a Q1SP fan to be super happy that people are making this, AND that they're listening to non-team members' feedback on demos/etc and even requests on how things should work. I can't understand how hostility could be generated by this. Plus like, aren't we all really old now? heh. I do find the new title for this thread humorous though. 
 
Try actually taking some of the critisism on board rather than just arrogantly going 'well, we know better, so whatever'.

Folks... read the demo2 thread? Haven't I like, patiently nodded every time Shambler criticized something? And haven't we like, released a demo so people actually *could* criticize it in the first place? Don't I run an RMQ dev blog (I'm not talking about my own blog, I mean the RMQ one) and go to the trouble of answering comments?

I meant it when I said, "these things will be addressed in a point release". That's kinda exactly what you describe. I also replied in earnest to the shotgun etc. comments.

But it seems more and more that we *are* bending over backwards to appease random trolls, indeed, and that we should stop doing that. This post is probably already a waste of time. I should manage my time better.

Not that I'd expect anything less from a mod that has not only been in development for how many years now but is continually referenced in posts saying how x, y or z is 'in remake quake you know (because it's _objectively_ the best thing ever)' in response to completely unrelated topics.

Where?

No-one cares anymore. Finish it, release it and stfu about it in the meantime.

I thought this was a dev forum though? As far as I see, we're mostly talking about it in its own thread(s). Don't read them, then. I'm pretty sure there's always been tons of talk in the community. But apparently there are new, different rules for us.

Also, this community is pretty small. There aren't that many places to talk about the stuff you're doing.

A couple people are just mad because we don't suck up to them enough. It is sad, but I believe that is the core of the problem. 
 
One of Quoth's principles is to not go against the player's expectations. Quoth also doesn't do requests. These two restrictions were pretty much the incentive for RMQ as a mod. As a smart person once said, requests are what made RMQ.

See this is an important point, because most people are dumb. Let me reiterate: Most people are idiots! You do not want to listen to them!



(lol yes me included lol don't listen to me rolf) 
So What Has This Thread Been Called? 
Right now it's called "Thinly-veiled Remake Quake Tedious Beef Thread." which seems about right.

Also, czg is right. 
I Wanted To Hear Some Venting ... It Was Needed 
No, I'm not part of the Remake Quake team nor do I have an objections to the criteria Spirit uses.

Rather I am a bit concerned about the anti-creativity vibe I see some emit in their posts.

To the One True Purple: Rubicon2 isn't stock id1 Quake. To be stock id1 Quake, you have to use base progs.dat. 
@RJ 
Quake-Life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWl1S20sxug ... kind of a neat experiment Avirox did in 2008.

And I started this thread not because someone doesn't have the right to dislike the sounds or the grapple or whatever in Remake Quake.

But I think it is sheer anti-intellectual ignorance to read some of the less intelligent posts I've seen about how someone shouldn't even be modding Quake.

That kind of backwoods flathead caveman thinking is the kind of thing that really is a bit offensive to anyone who can see the forest from the trees. 
Nehahra 
Did anyone act like this when Mindcrime was making Nehahra?

Yeah triple post, my bad. 
Well, CZG 
most people are absolutely retarded, we can agree on that, but I think in the community here we're mostly a fair ways above average, which is why the team taking feedback and even requests is good rather than bad. There may be the odd drunken poster (including myself) whose drunken rants (or just sober immature rants) don't deserve to be taken seriously, but I think the RMQ team's openness is great. Jesus christ, if I'd released a demo of NSOE or ARWOP beforehand and dealt with this, it would have been really frustrating. Compared to the RMQ team, every other mod/map team (including quoth, rubicon2, nehahra, etc) seems to have been given a free pass. I guess since they are daring to touch the original maps that might be seen as a bit different. But still, let these guys do what they're doing, provide civil feedback, and avoid the drama. 
Heh PS 
starting with "Jesus Christ" the rest of that post was a response in general, not to CZG. 
 
Rubicon2 isn't stock id1 Quake. To be stock id1 Quake, you have to use base progs.dat.

Fine, then. That doesn't defeat my point that new Q1SP releases will continue to cover the substance of Quake and id1 in particular. Case in point: mappi(1,2), digs05, oms2.

But I think it is sheer anti-intellectual ignorance to read some of the less intelligent posts I've seen about how someone shouldn't even be modding Quake.

I have not once seen anything like this posted on func, ever.

"Not that I'd expect anything less from a mod that has not only been in development for how many years now but is continually referenced in posts saying how x, y or z is 'in remake quake you know (because it's _objectively_ the best thing ever)' in response to completely unrelated topics."

Where?


The only reason I'm not linking you to certain posts is because Func has no search option. 
 
"will continue to cover new aspects of the substance" 
<- Rotten Tomato 
Fall damage and removal of monstercount have probably been on the nerf list even before otp left the team

And yet they haven't been changed? Those have been nearly universally complained about back when the first demo came out, so how does that go with the "Requests are what made RMQ" idea? 
OTP 
I started this thread only to make my own point.

Tronyn's well written thoughts say far better what I poorly tried to explained. I think with those thoughts adequately expressed, this thread is done for me. ;-) 
Three "Exiting The Thread Infos" ... 
I believe most or even all the participants in this thread have their hearts in the right places. Some moderator rushed to judged my intentions and that's ok ... no one reads minds.

Three things I know ...

#1 I got to see an incredible Remake Quake map before MH joined the Remake Quake Team. I was like "no fucking way!" The reason I got see this map was engine help debugging some issue. I could not freaking believe it.

#2 Oddly enough, there are a lot of aligned interests in Remake Quake, people like myself and Spirit and the Quakespasm people and MH both before and after. Some of the tool enhancements you have seen and will see, you will get to use regardless of whether or not you like Remake Quake.

#3 I have no beefs with Spirit whatsoever. This thread wasn't about Quaddicted. I know Spirit is as likely to like RMQ as I am likely to like QW bunny-hopping. I love all the stuff Spirit has done with Quaddicted. He rocks!

Whether or not you like what you have currently seen in Remake Quake, these guys are testing out tools, coming up with ideas, coming up with engine enhancements that any actual hardcore Q1SP mapper would want.

And when I see non-developers and maybe even non-mappers or inactive mappers crap on various stuff in a way that isn't even constructive criticism, I do sit back and think "Wow ... that's not even cool".

Somehow I suspect I am gonna be the guy later in the year that fulfills some of Spirit's ultimate build tools wishlist. I kind of hope I'm not. But I need enhanced tools to support some of the things I would like to do personally.

There is nothing personal in any of this for me. I just wanted to express some feelings but also be enough of an ass to get to hear the legitimate voices of people who have other feelings.

Peace out. Seriously. 
Lol Whatever 
 
Hm. Interesting Point. 
"And when I see non-developers and maybe even non-mappers or inactive mappers crap on various stuff in a way that isn't even constructive criticism,"

So, I'm not a mapper. I'm not a developer.

But I've been playing Quake since 1996. That means I'm what may be called an "end user". Does this put me in the position of being unable to express my total dislike of the work of someone?

Oh, well.
I don't like the tiniest bit of what we've seen so far of RMQ. A total waste of time.


Seriously Baker, I understand your inborn need of setting straight the evil that men do. And I understand your need to explain people what is "that any actual hardcore Q1SP mapper would want".

But, this thread. We could easily have done without. 
 
> #1 I got to see an incredible Remake Quake map before MH joined the Remake Quake Team. I was like "no fucking way!" The reason I got see this map was engine help debugging some issue. I could not freaking believe it.

I got to see the same map too, and it was 100% that map that caused me to volunteer to do some engine work for them in order to get it running well.

> I don't like the tiniest bit of what we've seen so far of RMQ. A total waste of time.

That's cool, you're entitled to your own opinion; everybody is. So long as you understand that it is *your* opinion and not an objective measure of quality.

Seriously folks, there is a level of trash talk going on among some of you that is *worse* than most of the gross-outs you can see in the MP scene.

I'll ask again: just what the fuck is the problem here? 
 
I'd guess the title of the project, using func to talk about internal things or how awesome they are and the higher-than-you attitude some team members present are inviting to such comments.

I mean, the name Remake Quake is bound to invoke controversy.

It is like that fairy tale with the boy who screams "Wolf!". If you are told again and again how something is totally the best interpretation of Quake ever and then your expectations are shattered again and again, you might get annoyed. 
 
Disclaimer: That is not the reason why it is not covered at Quaddicted (I might post news about it if I liked it but no addition in the db). The reason for that is that - as I tried to explain - it is far from the original Quake game. gb wrote a lengthy post about "What is Quake, then?" and also "The one true Quake�" in which he completely missed that for some people Quake might be defined with its actual distinct features and gameplay, not a broad interpretation of the genre or setting. A game like Painkiller is not Quake. OSP is not CPMA is not Quake 3 is not QuakeLive. I do not want to write a dissertation on this so I will leave it with that. 
Go Check, Kid... 
...you won't find a single post by me in the main thread regarding RMQ. That is because I did not want to put in harsh criticism to a work people seem to take very seriously, me not being a mapper.

That is because I perfectly understand that it is my "opinion and not an objective measure of quality. "

Bozos like Baker-boy, upstairs, do not. Or am I seeing things?

On the other end, when you decide to go public with a work, adult common sense says you should be prepared for people expressing their appreciation. Or not. 
 
That is because I did not want to put in harsh criticism to a work people seem to take very seriously, me not being a mapper.

please post it! it makes no difference whether you are a mapper or not. and provided it is specific criticism and clearly points out particular issues that could be improved, it is always useful to the team, no matter how harsh it is. it's only broad, hyperbolic statements such as the one you made about it being a 'total waste of time' that are liable to get people's backs up and respond defensively.. i'm certainly hoping the hundreds of hours i've put into my maps haven't been a waste of time anyway 8) 
Yeah 
I must admit this is childish. I've often thought of posting on this thread and then decided not to. Way I see it is that I don't care.

Gb is fickle and childish. He's also very headstrong and stubborn. To everyone.

OTP is aloof. He's obnoxious and childish, but he dont really care either, he's just being direct about his feelings.

The Silent is being blaze about this conflict. And he's being advocative because it feels good to voice your opinion about other peoples shit.

Spirit is being stubborn but makes a fair argument at the end of the day, about his website.

Baker is trying to budge Spirit I guess, and is despondent about RMQ being rejected by a community pillar. He's trying to be militant in a passive sense by forcing some of the pro-RMQ arguments. Which is fair enough, he's taking it all pretty well here.

czg is here, for which I am thankful, I missed him. But he IS quite nasty and blunt, and loves to stir it.

Scampie was just waiting for another kick-em while you think they are down moment.

I hate politics. I mean I really hate politics. All this semi-intellectual shit-slinging does nothing for me either TBH. 
 
I don't really the grapple (that is just me, I don't even like the grapple in AVP), so I would it would be optional and not mandatory. 
Typo 
I hope it would be optional not mandatory 
 
I'd guess the title of the project, using func to talk about internal things or how awesome they are and the higher-than-you attitude some team members present are inviting to such comments.

this.

there's a plug AND internal dev talk in shadow's dm map release thread ffs.
it's bad enough if you're going to do it in GA or mapping help, but someone's release thread? just rude.


oh look, i posted in this thread.
also, i thought the thread title was the original one. obviously, in hindsight, i should have known better. ^_^
finally, we really didn't need another rmq thread. baker could have posted his rmq beef IN the rmq thread itself. 
It's 
Been mentioned a few times about why do diffrent Ogre versions - we've got rocket, berserk (dual saws), flak and elder (big, various special abilities). The reasoning behind this is to allow the mapper different takes on doing stuff, whilst keeping it ogre if they so wish.

As has been mentioned, they don't have to be used if not required. It depends on what's needed. They each have a different optimal range when placed - berserk, elder , flak, grenade, rocket going in order from closest to furthest.

-------------------------------------------

Thread hijacking or droning on aren't good. It's true that people on func rarely talk about what they're working on, will try and respect that. 
 
what? people aren't supposed to talk about quake 1 mapping/modding on func? 
 
oh look, i posted in this thread.

Control yourself!! 
On Second Thought 
it is actually kind of awesome to have so many posts in such a short time, so this thread rules, and controversy is productive.

also I was thinking today about how annoying the general abuse banter is (thanks for contributing CZG), how it turns func_ into the retarded shit I always imagined #terafusion was and qmap often was, and I thought: since we're all (at least potentially) smart, creative, reasonable people here, can't we have honest discussions here without CZG-style trolling and faggotry, I mean what's the point of that kind of shit in such a small community of nerds. But then I realized that in a way, that actually makes it a lot funnier. So in a way it's actually awesome. I'm not going to say I entirely approve, though I partially do, but at least I understand. 
I Mean 
Thread hijacking isn't on.

Tronyn you rock, and this is one of the few times that metslime has commented on content. 
OK. 
what? people aren't supposed to talk about quake 1 mapping/modding on func?

Right, that clears that up.

Supposedly hijacking threads / "internal dev talk" (omg):

Firstly, you found one example to justify the shitstorm. Congrats. You might find two or three from the last couple years if you look hard. Still pretty thin.

Secondly, off topic posts are the rule, not the exception at func_. But apparently, it matters who makes these off topic posts! CZG can go and post "anus" in any thread he wants to, and no one complains. Off topic posts (about making Quake maps/mods/tools) by ijed or me are suddenly to be condemned? Hmm.

Internal dev talk on this dev forum is held against us as being rude? ... I don't know, man. It happens that we're on the same mod team. There was lots of talk between Quoth devs, testers and mappers during the infamous "Base Pack" times. Remember that shitstorm? Apparently that was something else. I'm willing to bet that there was also a lot of talk between Nehahra devs on whatever forum back when that was made.

So it comes down to who does the talking, it seems. I see. Buddy system, huh.

What it also comes down to, at the end, is that a couple people do not want another few people to talk about what they do (which has to do with this forum's topic) in most of this forum.

That's good old fashioned bullying folks.

And because I'm somehow convinced that those people doing the bullying and mobbing (actively, passively, or in passing) won't change their opinion after one, two, or three more RMQ demos, and are simply not interested in making friends or anything, only in us "shutting up", I think this place is hopeless and trying to make this ridiculous thread look all mature now and acting as if everybody had a point, won't change that one bit.

Kick and scream all you want, I won't do what you tell me. Some of the people tossing shit in my direction I don't even know.

I'd rather be headstrong and making RMQ than bide my time posting "fat naked chicks" on IRC.

Ouch.

And that is really all I have to say about that, folks. I'll go deliver more shitty maps now, if you'll excuse me.

Postscriptum: I am always willing to respond to any sane and ontopic comments or requests, as I have done in the past. You're more likely to get my attention at my blog or via email/PM at quakeone.com though.

Yhe1, I see your point, and the grappling in e1m6rq was slightly over the top because it was a demo, and the grapple was one of the new features, and I wanted feedback on that. It'll be largely optional in the final release.

Others might have similarly valid points, but forgive me for only skimming the shitstorm. Please post any serious feedback in the RemakeQuake or the Demo2 thread, or contact me/ijed/Supa/mh or simply use the comment function at the blog. Thank you. 
I'll Be Out Of Here Once I Get My Computer Sorted Again, Don't Worry 
Also pretty sure I didn't post "anus" anywhere?

This thread isn't about how you're not allowed to post here, it's about how shit RMQ is. Hope this helps! 
Sweet 
thanks for another "serious-yet-not-yet-fucking-with-people" post from the king of 1-decade-old curvy maps and annoying posts. I'd be insulting the French if I called you the Derrida of Quake mapping. You've got your own style, I'll give you that, and I understand the how and possibly part of the why too.

Enjoy your new computer. Glad you stopped by. 
Thanks, No Problem. 
 
Any Time 
Your contributions as a personality have always been so wonderful. 
Actually 100% Serious: 
If this project was not called RemakeQuake absolutely nobody would have an issue with it. 
Bah 
Even though I respect the hell out of Spirit for doing what he does and am grateful to him for posting my reviews (though some of them aren't as good as they should be, I do believe in the "formal map review" format of Shambler to encourage mappers), I disagree with him on whether RMQ is a giant quake episode with modding, or instead a totally different thing which goes beyond quake episode/mod.

Anyway I have a hard time believing you're (CZG) ever 100% serious given your notoriety for being an asshole, and, obviously a title wouldn't change much. But whoever's on what side, and I don't even know who is on what side or why, I've always been offended by much of what GB identified above in his post. I surely am a paranoid mofo, but the spam spammed on all of us as some kind of inside joke by "established" mappers from 10 years ago, is or ought to be done. I'm not denying the possibility that I'm just bitter and paranoid, and I AM trying to be reasonable, insofar as a person with my psychology can be. But dude, I don't like what you bring to this discussion. It seems to me some pretentious fucking around. Not trying to seem less reasonable than I already often do seem, but that is simply an honest expression of the tone of your posts to me. I'm not demanding you go, I'm not even asking for you to modify your posting style, I'm just asking you to know - that I'll bitch. Bitch. 
OI 
Stop bullying czg, he is a wonderful person struggling to express himself.

ijed: You know pretty damn well that people presenting/talking about their work-in-progress here is a crucial subject. Don't try to shift the topic in such a ridiculous way.

gb: For the record, it seems you are/were the one kicking and screaming and thoroughly enjoying the side of the victim. 
Quaddicted Rules 
I got a new review by Tronyn in the mail and it is totally awesome! I will post it at Quaddicted.com on the weekend! 
Also My Last Map Was In 2005 Not 2001 Please Get Your Facts Straight 
 
Alright 
alright I need to calm down again. I apologize, with the belief that given how tiny, specialized, and well-intentioned (ahem) this community is, we can totally get along. 
Heh - Non-apology! - Or Rather Complication Of Such. 
well CZG you made your name - in this tiny place we call our community - with Insomnia. I never said otherwise, in fact I believe I specifically called you "the king of 1-decade-old curvy maps and annoying posts." Nowhere there was there any statement on when you released your last map,it could have been yesterday! In fact, it was slightly complementary in saying that your map of 10 years ago was KING.
anyway what you last said was simply wrong and incorrect. Get your facts straight, especially in a post called "Get your facts straight." come on now. 
Triple 
as to make sense of the last two.
we're still getting along I'm just making my position clear. 
I Don't Like Those Maps. I Wish People Would Stop Liking Them. 
 
Heh 
well whatever I might think of you if I let that influence my views of your maps I'd be a shitty reviewer. Though I shouldn't let this response end without another note that the post it responds to - lol - again contains the tone you seem incapable of abandoning. Don't take me for a purely bitter man, I see the humour. Ass. 
"anyway What You Last Said Was Simply Wrong And Incorrect" 
Which part? That if it changed its name noone would be angry about it?
Maybe I'm wrong, at least I wouldn't be angry about it. I could be free to ignore it like so much else. Might be that other people have other issues with it of course.

As it is now it sends a message to people who haven't played Quake, but might be interested in it, that 'hey, this is what Quake was supposed to be like!' And then they play it and they're all 'Quake sure has awful sounds, bad lighting, weird physics and monster insta-deaths!'

I can't ignore RMQ because the name says it's a Quake Remake, Quake done properly, and I don't think it is.
I wouldn't want anyone who are going to play Quake for the first time to have RMQ as their introduction. 
There, Was That Post "serious" Enough For You? 
Gawrsh! It's almost as if you're some sort of emotional vampire! 
This Is Getting Fun 
we sooooo understand each other, at least you can't bait me any further.

I actually thought you fucking with me was going to be forced to end but this last post is a stroke of genius. Thankfully I'm not quite dumb enough to fall for it, but I totally appreciate the humour in it, and recognize that I'd be a legitimately hilarious fool if I responded all pissed off to it!

I guess all I can say is, nicely played, sir. Make some maps. It'd be hard for you to make shitty maps, whatever our differences may be. Anus. 
I Honestly Don't Understand 
I posted a post intended as being serious, then a post asking if it actually read as serious.
I'm not trolling you or anything, it almost seems as if it's the other way around... 
CZG 
your last post is the most hilarious thing I've read on this forum. If you meant it in earnest I'm sorry. I am a bit paranoid. But lol, jesus lol, this last post of yours is so funny that it actually justifies all my frustration with you leading up to that point, that is how ironic and amusing and frankly hilarious I find it (and I mean that, I'm not fucking with you, I'm happy this whole exchange occured either way). Even if I'm only laughing at my own paranoia (and I've been as straightforward as I can possibly be in all my posts here), god, that's good.

It seems to me you've been deliberately changing the subject and playing the victim. If this is all a misinterpretation of mine, I'm sorry. And if you HONESTLY don't understand, well, either way the universe got a bit more awesome. Sorry to have offended you! 
Still Don't Understand Your Act To Be Honest... 
Posts #82 and #92 are genuine. 
Well 
that's probably because it's no act.

I'm willing to accept the idea that those 2 posts are genuine, but you have to be able to accept the idea that, given your method of interaction here, people such as myself could well interpret what you say as less than genuine. Everything I say I mean. If you mean 2 posts out of however many good for you. I just think that a small place of smart honest not-fucking-around people is a nice thing, in a world of marketing and bullshit, and I'm obviously bothered by your style here. I'm still paranoid enough that your posture in your last post still seems feigned to me. As if you're not gonna come around again trying to be an ass, then later play all offended and "genuine." This is how I feel, I don't want to be more of an asshole than I am, but this is what I think. 
And 
obviously this argument isn't going to go anywhere, and I should just let go, so I will. I'm sure you're more reasonable than I'm giving you credit for. 
I'm Not At All Offended, Never Have Been. 
That post kinda clears up my confusion though. It does indeed seem you are somewhat paranoid. 
AKA 
FORMAL apology for whatever level of this conversation has been generated only by my paranoia. Not that I won't be pissy in the future.

your post about your last map release was bullshit and that was obvious. I cornered you on it, you changed the subject. I was totally overly harsh, and I'm calling it even now, but I hope you can at least understand where I'm coming from. I've tried to explain where I think you're coming from. 
Heh 
tone of that wasn't quite right. Sorry for real. Paranoid yes. 
Well I Just Checked On Quaddicted And The Latest One I Found Was 
16/01/2005 so I dunno why that would be wrong? 
Ah Ok I Think I See What You Meant Now 
Nevermind all this then! A genuine misunderstanding! 
Heh 
the reason, as we both know, is that you implied that I implied that the last time you released a map was 10 years ago, when my 79 never implied that, your 86 implied (falsely) that 79 did imply that, my 88 proved your 79 absolutely wrong, your 90 avoided the question in response, and your 92 brought up my 88 again regarding the claim on 79, as if 88 was not a literally correct condemnation of the claims made in 79.

Anyway, we understand each other. You're "the king of 10-year old curvy maps and annoying posts" as per my original claim. 
Czg: Quit Being A Zombie Clawing From The Grave 
My whole complaint-rant regarding the old "used to be cool" long-retired mapper thing is punctuated by you.

I hate has-been mappers reaching from the grave to criticize. It's not cool. Not cool at all. And frankly, it has been a long, long, long time since you mattered.

It isn't that your elder-world opinion doesn't matter, but if you are just gonna be a dick, go fucking retire and don't come back. 
My Misunderstandings 
In #83 (Which you omit in #105 and my #86 was in response to) you say some kind of inside joke by "established" mappers from 10 years ago which implies I hadn't done anything since then.

It is true in my #90 I didn't really read your #88 properly and answered wrong.

In #92 I read your anyway what you last said in #88 as referring to my #82 which was also wrong. 
Fuck Off Baker 
 
Well You Know What Now CZG 
it will be OBVIOUS if my post 105 is NOT a documentation of your assholeness but instead merely a paranoid assemblage of your innocent misinterpretations - if you don't act like the asshole post 105 portrays you as in the future. We'll see.

But if you just want to come back to a place you used to contribute real content to, to troll around, like please man why, what right do you have. I prize this place as a creative honest place for discussion, and 105 is the documentation of either a fool or a malicious ass - fucking with what I want to be an honest place. 
Heh 
I should admit that my 105 can be read as purely my paranoia, and also that your 107 points out real issues with my 105. But the main point of my 109 - that 105 will be NOTHING AT ALL if you can just act like a nice fucking guy! - stands. 
 
I can't act like a nice guy because whatever I say will be interpreted as some sort double-triple-ironic metacommentary about god knows what and and subtle subterfuge and social engineering and whatnot.

I've got my new RAM sorted now, so now I'm back to not posting here. It has been interesting, thanks! 
Sure 
it's not the thunder of Zeus striking randomly.
No one interprets anything I say as "some sort double-triple-ironic metacommentary about god knows what" - don't deny that my (however paranoid) interpretation of your posts had some kind of basis. Seriously, when ANYONE ELSE posts ANYTHING, this sort of interpretation isn't possible, even for me.

Dude, stick around. Just don't post like an ass, or if you do, expect me to bitch. 
Hm 
the matter is such silly threads and people behind them make us want to troll them to death, i support czg totally here. 
Posts 105 And 107 Perfectly Explain Everything 
And I don't think any of the two of us have been assholes about it. 
Obviously 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgzeqwhNTDk

for a mapping forum that corner is never the corner I think it is 
The Video Isn't Available In My Country 
only in usa 
115 Was Re: Vondur 
Re: 114
I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm not even against trolling (or clever commentary that isn't even trolling). I don't want to come across as an asshole here, because I'm not trying to be one. Anyway my POV is 112 (though my FOV remains 90). 
Oh Man (re Vondur) 
and I have to put up with that shit so much as a Canadian being right next to the US
it was Radiohead's No Surprises - which I think is an awesome song that most people here would already know and like - but citing it was the point that I felt like, even though I like you personally a good deal more than CZG, it was no surprise that you'd support him as the old vanguard would clearly stick together. Awesome song though, all the more awesome given that Radiohead has become lame ass hipsters imo. 
Ah Ye 
that one is a nice song indeed. and i agree with you on radiohead being popasses nowadays ;) 
Czg: Re: Fuck Off Baker 
Um ... no ..

List of the mean-spirited participants of this thread:

1. CZG ... the awesome "has-been" mapper of days gone by. Neato.

2. Onetruepurple. Who is so uneducated as to not know what "stock id1 Quake" means. Neat.

3. Non-Entity. The asswipe that carries grudges against me because I guess he lost everything in a Sherriff's sale because no one would employ him. So now he's lost 40 pound and is mad at me. Groovy!

4. Scampie. The noble guy who didn't really know what the thread was about but posted "just because". What a guy! Love him.

CZG: I can't "fuck off" or "go away" because I am actively making and developing things for Quake. Sure I'm an ass at times, occasionally even rude, but at the same time I have actual technical contributions to engine code, map building tools and even ... maps!

I won't be going anywhere. If it helps, you can think of me as a pimple on the ass of Quake.

I myself prefer to think of myself personally in other ways, but whatever floats your boat ... 
Lol 
Baker I love you, and I am happy to pass the torch of (apparently) "top provocative ass in this thread."

Vondur nice to agree, I hope you don't think I'm being unreasonable. I always thought Thom Yorke made a great angsty nerd, hell I love Radiohead from the start until Amnesiac-ish period, but as soon as Yorke put on the hat he wears in "Lotus Flower," I realized that the internet had destroyed the very idea of nerdiness. Jesus. Now nerds are hipsters. Pity the next generation's god damn music. 
I Think Radiohead Are Awesome 
Even now. But Thom Yorke always looks like he's been in a crack den for 3 days and needs a wash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8M-Moo4imQ 
 
I beta tested a wip map by czg and it is a beautiful piece of art. just so you know and so you can stop saying that he is a man of the past. Also, see rubicon2?

If you were interested you could get great feedback and wisdom from those "old farts". I don't see time invalidating game design concepts.

"you have no right for an opinion because I don't see you doing it yourself" is idiotic.


Radiohead is some retarded emo whine crap that is only topped by portishead. 
Heh 
do I ever hate Portishead

Spirit, no one said anything like "old mappers can't have opinions," "old or non-active mappers have nothing to teach us" or "those who don't map can't have opinions on mapping." The whole thing was just an issue of the tone of posts, and an issue of automatically putting up with that tone, which I wanted to challenge. Hell I still think Steve Rescoe was an amazing designer and if he showed up today I'd be super interested in whatever he had to say. But hell, if - say - Stephen Hawking posted posts in a tone I dislike, I'd bitch about that tone. That's all. 
This Is Fun 
Also pretty sure I didn't post "anus" anywhere? You did, just then - it was a t4rp.

Don't try to shift the topic in such a ridiculous way. Either pay attention or don't read selectively. Or not, whatever.

I know there's no official format on func for 'a new review is up at Quaddicted' but something along those lines is typically mentioned somewhere on the board, and I'm glad it is so I can go over and read it.

Or we can just blather on about random crap and trick CZG into talking about anus until his new PC is set up. 
Sorry, Let Me Post Regarding The Thread Now. 
Some people criticize Remake Quake as not being "Quake" enough and cry about it.

It is titled 'Remake' Quake. I was expecting something that enhanced the simple and effective gameplay of Quake that I enjoy (otherwise, I wouldn't give a fuck about a mod of an outdated game) and updated it into modern visuals. Instead I got a mod which is barely more than a conglomeration of the terrible crap that modders were making 10+ years ago with no interesting modern innovation, along with amatuerish sounds, textures, lighting, map design, and models.

My personal opinion is that aside from Negke --- who I believe is an especially unique enigma unmatched in his unconventional and perfectionist style --- that the 1,376 id1 maps at Quaddicted adequately cover everything of substance that is ever gonna be done with id1 Quake.

I think Remake Quake is doing exactly the kind of thing that Carmack envisioned when he open-sourced damn near all of Quake: experimentation and risky creativity.


You just slammed every single mapper ever, while also championing a team of modders who's mappers have done little more than terribly redesign id maps, their programmers have copied every enhancement other modders have done for years in the field of engines, have added gameplay features that were innovative (and unexciting) years ago, and have sounds/textures/models which are all worse than the Q3 graphics they're attempting to replicate. I'm all for 'experimentation' and 'risky creativity', doesn't mean I don't get to still call it shit if it is.

Seriously, aside from a puzzle and a grappling hook [Oh noes ... 3D navigations!! OMG ... ] and a vial here and there Remake Quake is Quake to the core. Just with more imagination.

'Imagination' doesn't make something better. Zerstorer was was Quake and imaginative. Nehahra was Quake and imaginative. There have been several scores of maps which have been imaginative and still decidedly Quake (with or without any custom progs.dat) over these 15 years. Remake Quake is trying very hard to be every other game in existance while changing Quake's designs and gameplay for the worse and tacking on amatuer sounds, graphics, and effects. I suppose it may well be Quake, but it's still shit. 
@Scampie 
> their programmers have copied every enhancement other modders have done for years in the field of engines

Sorry but that's a goddam personal insult. Have you even read my code? Do you even know what it's capable of? Quick to jump in and comment about things you haven't even a fucking clue about, aren't you?

Anyway, I'm not a mapper, I'm an engine guy, and I like writing rendering code that can handle insane amounts of detail and crazy brushwork at playable speeds. That's what I do.

I don't innovate, I react. If there is a need to handle a certain feature in code, and if the feature is reasonably sane, then I handle it; but that's driven by the requirements of the content and the people who use that content. I'm happy to do that, I get satisfaction and achievement from it.

Map-wise I judge a map by how much fun it is to play. "Fun" - remember that? No lofty sense of purity to the original here, if a map is fun then it rocks, if it's not fun then it doesn't.

I could give a list of older and more recent releases that I thought were not fun, but I've no interest in getting into a pissing contest over map quality. I know what I like and if I don't like it I can quite happily get on with the rest of my life ignoring it. I've better things to be doing with my time than expending energy on negative bullshit. It's not an affront to me that something I don't like exists in the world.

Portishead's first 2 LPs weren't great, but their third one is quite good, by the way. 
As Stupid As This Thread Is, 
the "remake" vs reinterpret point makes some sense. I recall similarly emotional disputes over certain Doom PWAD projects.
So calling this ReMixQuake might have been a more diplomatic solution. 
 
I Don't Like Those Maps. I Wish People Would Stop Liking Them.

If it helps I found Insomnia rather boring. Ceremonial Circles, now that kicked ass :p 
 
Sorry but that's a goddam personal insult. Have you even read my code? Do you even know what it's capable of? Quick to jump in and comment about things you haven't even a fucking clue about, aren't you?

End user speaking here, so no, I've never read nor care at all about your code, just what it does for me. I'm sure you've done some great stuff on the backend, but having installed a seperate engine to play the mod when I already have other modern Quake engines, I would hope to have seen something new and innovative featurewise that actually requires a seperate engine as far as the end user is concerned. To me, it just seemed like yet another 'colored lights, high res textures, interpolation fixes, fancy effects' engine like so many others.

Map-wise I judge a map by how much fun it is to play. "Fun" - remember that? No lofty sense of purity to the original here, if a map is fun then it rocks, if it's not fun then it doesn't.

Have you seen the brushwork? Do you even know what it's capable of!?

I don't care about the maps 'purity to the original', in fact I was even more turned off they seemed to basically be remixes with new areas tacked in rather than full on reenvisionings. Still wasn't 'fun', thanks to the terrible puzzles and other such gimmicks that aren't even fun in other games, never mind shoehorning them into another game's design where they're not even wanted. 
"All 129, Last 50, New 57" 
Nothing will ever surprise me anymore.

Ontopic: I like Radiohead. 
Scampie 
So verion 0.1 of the project should have been awesome?

Also, since every is getting offended not by the 'Quake' in the title but by the 'Remake' what would be the difference? Remix? Redo? Change?

This seems a bit thin to be honest, putting it in the terms of other remix projects. A completely different name such as Nehahra did would have made more sense, but at the time we were just starting and RemakeQuake described exactly what we wanted to achieve.

The only name change I think we'd consider (since everything is setup now in various folder and versioning systems) is QuakeAsItShouldHaveBeenDoneFuckidAndEveryoneWhoShouldHaveAlreadyDoneThisButDidnt. 
..AndAllYouGuys 
 
Hmm 
Probably good thing that id didn't do it like that. Wouldn't have sold, wouldn't have spawned decades of quality games and probably would have written off the FPS genre due to public perception of it as a mess of badly intergrated gimmicks.

Also, what's a sheriff's store? And who's Baker? 
Baker 
I don't know nonentity personally and thus I'm not going to defend him here, but

Non-Entity. The asswipe that carries grudges against me because I guess he lost everything in a Sherriff's sale because no one would employ him. So now he's lost 40 pound and is mad at me. Groovy!

was the absolutely fucking lowest thing I've read on this forum.

Also, the sleeping Shamblers that you seem to adore, were in Nehahra, 11 years ago, so suck it down with your comments about me being "uneducated".

As someone who has also spent time and effort into RemakeQuake, I was trying to stay more civilized than czg and Scampie (I would not call RMQ shitty by any means), but you and gb are making that exceedingly hard. 
Well, Fuck 
Beaten to post. 
Yet Another <snip> Engine 
OK, I can see where you're coming from now. That's actually quite a mark of success that the changes and enhancements made turned out to be so unintrusive, so I need to thank you for that.

And Radiohead are pretty goddam tedious. 
 
If you've released it to the public it should be torn apart. Did you want to be jerked off instead? 
Nonentity, You Got Mail. 
I tried to explain the great engine stuff mh does to Scampie but apparently I failed. 
 
all you did was babble about directx 
 
And Radiohead are pretty goddam tedious.

You can always start a RemakeRadiohead project... 
RMQEngine Is Great Because: 
1 - No more efrags bug! (you can have an many static entities and illusionaries etc as you like now)

2 - Support for transparent textures (i.e. mesh fences etc)

3 - Runs faster

4 - Corrects the widescreen aspect-ratio problem (no more FOV wierdness)

And there are a bunch of optimisations and stuff I know nothing about. But my first point (the efrags fix) is huge! It means that you can put as much quake-goodness detailing in your maps as you like now.

The next feature I wish for is to raize the vertex limit to unlimited.

Then I could make a Quake city. 
 
> The next feature I wish for is to raize the vertex limit to unlimited.

That's a BSP format limit, unfortunately. Otherwise I would have removed it ages ago.

> You can always start a RemakeRadiohead project...

How about a "put their fucking heads on pikes" project? 
This Is The Awesomest Feature Ever Ever 
No more efrags bug! 
 
that tronyn-czg exchange was surreal. 
 
For what it's worth I got a chuckle out of the new Quaddicted title bar text. 
@CZG: I Don't Like Those Maps. I Wish People Would Stop Liking Them 
If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is it about czg07 that you don't like? Were you happy with it when you released it?

From my view, they were quite the revolutionary works, with complicated layouts that I still don't believe have ever been matched (Well, for the first two maps anyway). It showcased exactly what was possible with curves in Quake, something that up until that point really hadn't been tried. Hell, during my infrequent forays into mapping, I still use you curves tutorial.

Though I don't map (much) anymore, in my most recent of vocations, even though my early work admittedly sucked, how else is one supposed to get better than by producing sub-par things to being? 
Yeah 
They're some of my favourite maps in any game. The lift at the end is a bit anticlimactic, but you can't have it all.

The scale was bumped and though it was spacious it didn't feel empty.

It was the first time I saw the horde concept in Q1 as well, even though it was a handful of hknights and fiends, as opposed to a genuine horde. 
@Onetruepurple / Nonentity 
Yes, maybe I did an entirely uncool post. I'm human and Nonentity has done a ton of uncool posts directed towards me that were not fair whatsoever. Do I have some resentment that surfaces on a bad day at a bad time with a bit of alcohol? Yes I do.

Am I a better person for doing so? No. I clearly am not.

But I'm human like the rest of you. I fuck up. I make mistakes. I try to be the "better man", and sometimes I will fail at this.

And I accept this human fallacy. Perfect is boring.

Was it low? Yes it was. It was completely low. Should I have done it? On a good day, for sure not. But like all of you, I'm just a mortal ... full of imperfection, fallacy and hell --- I've participated in this thread long after I "exited the thread".

I'll take the heat for being a jerk. Sometimes I am a jerk. Sometimes I rise above.

And as far as CZG is concerned, do I think he could do better and rise above, absolutely.

You can hate me for being flawed, but I have never claimed to be perfect. I am so very far from perfect, but yet I'll accept all the criticism I've earned when I've acted like an ape.

But my goal is to rise above that ultimately. Is this your goal as well? Do you have what it takes to suppress your inner caveman and be civil? Curious minds want to know. 
@Scampers 
Let me tell you from personal experience ... and although you haven't read this, it is either buried in the bowels of QuakeOne.com or an email ... sounds are the most sensitive of all things.

I have posted again and again how the sounds in Quake make it work of art and how playing with those are the most dangerous of all things.

Now, you can go off about how particularly the sounds in Remake Quake version are bad --- an you will have a chorus that agrees with you including me --- and yet at the same time, even with sounds that do not jive these guys are imaginating up and testing modifications to the tools and the engine. I give credit to a developer set looking to expand map compile tool capability and engine capability knowing that eventually any sound issues will be fixed later.

Are you happy now? 
Spririt And "Old Farts" 
Do you think I don't have respect for czg? Who couldn't? Do I bear a bit of resentment for him participating and pissing of distrans and mocking distrans? I do.

I personally think a legend like czg should behave like a legend. 
Bleh. 
Nobody on here is "a legend"; we're all just a bunch of jackoffs who screw around on the internet and play and/or make maps and games.

Also, this thread is just horrible. Sorry, no special, meta-ironic, double-back-reversals here. It just fucking sucks. Petty sniping and bickering, likes and dislikes being stated as objective absolutes and ad hominem bullshit and angsty drama smeared over the top like shit frosting.

It's no worse than the rest of the internet, but this place is usually a lot better than that.

Just sayin'. 
Well, Fuck Me. 
Pjw hit the bull's eye. Perfectly right. 
 
A wiser man than me once said that the internet is the fastest way of getting from where you don't want to be to where you don't want to go.

I guess we've all just proved that. 
Thanks Pjw 
 
What PJW Said 
I've been quietly reading this and shaking my head as I try to figure out just why such a micro-community as the Quake community in 2011 needs to have this much fucking in-fighting.

Let's have a sanity check here people. 
THOM YORKE (Bees Reference) 
<-- Bee 
...i like my coffee like i like my women.

covered in bees. 
Finally Read It 
wished I hadnt.

I see the elitism is still around. I also see that now there seem to be two tiers of it.

Question 1: if you dont like rmq and dont want to play it read about it, what stops you from ignoring it?

I have managed to both not read about it and have also managed to not play it.

Question 2: If you, and you alone, will determine the content of your mod, then dont release betas guys.

I know you talk about listening to constructive feedback etc, and maybe you really do, but it doesnt come across that way. 
 
Is someone going to finally lock this trainwreck or something? :P 
 
but it doesnt come across that way.

Well, our discussion is internal and probably won't ever be published. We can also listen to only so much - some changes take longer than others since theres less motivation to champion them.

Thats taking into account the hundreds of other little elements needed to advance.

There is a way of making sure that a given critics feedback gets into the mod in some form or other, but from what I've seen the majority of critics either aren't interested, lack the skills or staying power.

Its difficult to take feedback from this forum in general because of the tone. But the reason why I and others bother is because we are interested in feedback. Its why we release demos as well.

This seems to have offended many of the more insecure members of the community who feel threatened by the mod or have some other grievance.

Like you say, we're not holding a gun to anybody's head to play it.

In terms of responding to feedback, there's only been two SP demos - the second one being much better received than the first. We're interested to see how the third is received, though we don't expect and 180 degree changes of opinion. 
Looking Back 
It seems that the weapons are the big sticking point for many, even team members and previous team members.

As has been mentioned here, the id1 SG feels like a pistol, whereas we wanted ours to feel like, well, a shotgun.

Our DBS is similar to the Doom1 or Quake2 version, being more of a slow blunderbuss.

The main issue is that the model changes we made were minimal and we didn't change the names. So people approach the weapon set assuming its the same.

I still people peppering enemies from miles away with the DBS for example.

There's no neat way to solve this preconception issue. Maybe a player guide is the only way to do it. 
 
The main for many will be that the DBS makes a mockery of so many monsters. You haven't beefed up the strength of monsters to warrent the addition of a hyper shotgun. Quake was designed with the SSG it has. This wasn't an oversight by iD. Doom 2 only got it's super shotgun because they added so many tough monsters, and greatly increased the count of regular ones. If the SSG had been in Doom 1 it would have felt stupid because the only tough monster it had was the Baron (and maybe Cacodemon).

Quake's weapon balance was designed around the lower count of monsters that Quake supported. If the tech had supported Doom 2 levels of monsters I'm sure iD would have rethought their weapon balance.

Unless you're going to add half a dozen monsters that are as tough or tougher than a shambler I think people will just say it's OTT. A tutorial to tell the players the shotgun is more powerful will not change this fact. This is further compounded by the ideology of not making monsters tough in health but just making them do huge damage. Fights are over in an instant, and have a more binary feel in their result (ie I lost shitloads of health or he did).

As another point, Tronyn's new map has much more powerful shotguns, but he also beefed up the monster count to compensate. RMQ demo 2 barely ever has you fighting two monsters at the same time, and when said monsters can be felled in one hit, combat feels meh.

----
TL DR: Don't change the weapons just because.The weapons should suit what the player is fighting, and in RMQ so far they don't. 
 
dbs should shoot one sg blast and a slug, gl with that 
Yeah 
We're in the process of beefing up the monsters. Balance is always the slowest part of the process. 
 
Unless you're going to add half a dozen monsters that are as tough or tougher than a shambler I think people will just say it's OTT. A tutorial to tell the players the shotgun is more powerful will not change this fact. This is further compounded by the ideology of not making monsters tough in health but just making them do huge damage. Fights are over in an instant, and have a more binary feel in their result (ie I lost shitloads of health or he did).

this is currently the main problem with rmq. the monsters, especially the ogres, all do insane damage and have lightning quick reflexes when choosing to attack.
what we end up having is basically a map full of quoth1 droles and quoth2 defenders. it feels like everything is overpowered.

there's so much number inflation going on, that it's hard not to justify it as needed too. you basically have World of Warcraft late-game PvP-- everyone does so much damage that fights are over before any player skill has been shown. And then there was otp's remark that Shamblers are getting general purpose damage reduction, which strikes me as hilarious because it completely mirror's WoW's much derided resilience stat which was brought in for exactly the same purpose.

finally, on the SSG specifically, it's way overpowered from it's original incarnation. there really should be a new weapon at this point. the plus side is by adding a new shotgun, you can have it use an appropriate amount of shells for the damage it causes. 
Or Simply Nerf The New Ssg A Bit 
 
Well 
having a super powerful shotgun of some type does open up new gameplay possibilities.
it allows more higher health enemies or enemies in higher numbers without having to give up SNG or GL/RL and trivializing the rest of the map. 
Yeah 
I realising the same. Its meant as more of a pro weapon as per the Dooom2 version.

Vs Ogres it makes combat very one shot as has been mentioned, because the distances involved aren't very far. Normally you run into Ogres practically face to face.

In the current version the SG is fine against Ogres.

The Shambler has some abilities which weren't showcased and are still in progress to some extent such as a more electrical or earthing ranged attack and an additional spawnflag ability you'll see soon.

The 'don't raise the health' concept is to not raise it across the bar to deal with the generally more aggressive enemies, that said, it does raise depending on the common combats against a given creature. For the last demo level, probably a SG only would have been good.

The key we're looking for is to provoke that same 'holy shit!' fear we all had when playing the game for the first time. Everything felt a bit more evil. 
Rambling Need Coffee 
 
 
Blah blah blah blah blah.

The reason RMQ will never satisfy the Quake community is because it presumes to call itself Remake Quake. Quake is a game that is loved (almost fanatically) by a lot of people here, so 'remaking' it is just going to piss them off. There's a hint of arrogance about it.

If this project had a different title like 'Quake: Advanced' or 'Quakeish' or something equally inoffensive then everybody would praise the amount of skill that's clearly going in to its creation.

The power of rhetoric should never be underestimated, especially not on the interwebs. 
Quake Must Plus! 
Engorge your Quake Mamary in 2 weeks! 
Really 
if the title is pissing people off, that is ridiculous. 
Btw 
what I am interested in knowing: current mappers involved? 
There's 
Me, Rj, Gb, RickyT23, Lardarse and Vigil.

As might be expected, a lot of the maps fall on the monolithic side.

There are other mappers on the roster, but not actively mapping - either providing feedback or working on other content. 
That's A Good Mapping Team 
although I dont think I've played anything by Lardarse and only one map by gb.

cheers. I wil go back under a rock now and wait for the final release. 
Quake: Advanced Sounds Way Worse 
THAT implies that it is better - a progression forwards on some scale.

I'm glad though that this thread seems to be going more towards constructive shit now though. I also felt meh about the shotgun in the newest demo.
I actually enjoyed the 1st demo more, but that's just cause I love the menacing atmosphere of Ijed maps. I really can't think of many mappers who get that aspect of things better. 
Thanks 
Also, I've got a more appropriate name for the mod, since the last one was so controversial.

RePlaceQuake 
Fake-Quake 
God-Sake-Quake 
 
Quake 5 
...Quake 2 
 
 
"I can't believe it's not Quake"!!! 
Temblor 
 
"I Don't Want To Believe It's Quake!" 
How about

AnotherQuake 
 
...Quake 2

Thats a can of worms for a different community >:D 
Lol @ Schbiridt 
 
Is There A Quake 2 Community? 
 
 
"Generic Quake Mod" 
Drew 
He's called Geoff. 
Ah No, 
AguirRe is working on Q2... 
 
Scrags should know how to use their flight to their advantage when in fighting with other enemies. 
 
figured out a nice way to do this recently. wish i had known back when we did the gaunt.

in order to get a monster to fly up or down w/respect to an entity, they have to have that entity as their .enemy as well .goalentity.

you can make a helper entity, set that to the height you want, and then, when you are calling movetogoal, swap the actual enemy with the helper and then put it back after the monster has moved.

this lets you make monsters fly up higher than the target. 
They Can 
Blink to escape further damage after the first hit and strafe a bit. Having them fly up or down is more complicated since we removed the vertical autoaim - there were many cases where it broke gameplay or was just annoying / stupid. 
 
you can make a helper entity, set that to the height you want, and then, when you are calling movetogoal, swap the actual enemy with the helper and then put it back after the monster has moved.

I do this with rubicon2 centurions to make them move up and down as well as side to side, during combat.

However, they are still dumb as a brick when it comes to pathfinding (i.e. they have no understanding that they need to go over a wall to get to you.) This is a general problem with all quake monster pathing, but flying guys have more options so it's more obvious when they don't use them intelligently. 
Yeah 
i've been thinking of trying to do some actual path finding in qc. it seems to be a daunting task though.

has anyone ever tried that hl2 pathfinding method where you basically just scatter these entities all over the map and then monsters use them as nodes to navigate?

these days, with fiztquake protocol having basically unlimited edicts (what is it, like 32000?) it wouldn't even be that big a deal. 
Technically... 
even with protocol 15 you can have 8192 edicts, and in fact you can go beyond that if you want and the only loss is that higher-numbered edicts can't play sounds. 
ZealousQuakeFan Needed >2048 
In something I saw. I dont know how many but I gave it 4096. 
 
s'okay Ricky that was Fitzquake's default edict limit of 1024 iirc. it's just a cvar you can increase, so something to mention in a readme I guess.

Actually hit that limit a while back, should look at how many edicts it's got now :E 
Heh 
You could use make a start map, and use an info_command in the start map to raise the edicts limit. Seeing as you are using Quoth, I think that would work :) Anyone? 
Autoexec 
Is better since you don't have to load anything up. Any commands you put in there are executed when Quake loads. 
 
Of course the RMQ engine itself doesn't actually need this kind of thing anymore; it'll load 'em all irrespective of how many you have. 
 
Yeah RMQ loads it without complaint and runs it best. Fitzquake is okay too, fires a load of warnings at you and drops frames a lot more in intense fights mind :E

Darkplaces just chugs. Wonder how many people would whine about that :P 
Well 
The RMQ engine is optimal for lots of things. It will run any known map you can throw at it, I think.

It's not bullet proof of course, but even running large unvised maps the slowdown is noticeably less than in other engines. 
 
I remember something about stealing a enforcer's weapon. Maybe slot 2 could be a laser blaster, and slot 3 toggle between the shotgun and the DBS. 
 
Darkplaces clearly needs some development love. Great engine, great set of features, but not the best when it comes to simply running modern SP maps well.

Yhe1, there will be an enforcer blaster in the game I'm pretty sure. RMQ will have 4 (at least) new player chars, and it's thought that each of them could have unique slot 1 and 2 weapons.

One new char is already in the code, but was disabled for the last 2 demos. Others already exist as models and/or concepts.

RMQ does have pickup models for all weapons, so a character could start without the shotgun and just pick it up later, or not. Just like you start with the axe in e1m6rq and can pick up the chainsaw later. Optionally. Much like Quoth's hammer in principle, only expanded to slot 2 and with more choices.

So it's basically "more weapons" combined with "4 different starting layouts". It's not a class system though, all player chars will basically be able to do the same thing (run and shoot). There will be no character-specific equipment or anything like that.

Possibly they'll have some character traits, but it is nowhere near a "class system". Much closer to Quake 2's multiplayer Grunt/Cyborg/Athena setup, only in singleplayer as well.

I don't think there will be squadmates; Quake is more about the solitary being lost feeling anyway. There is a full customizable NPC system though, which we have only scratched the surface of so far (e3m1rq had some cutscenes with NPCs being eaten by Shamblers IIRC). You'll see more of the NPCs in Demo 3.

The episode 1 char might start with the grapple, for example. The episode 3 char might have the blaster. Every episode will have its own sort of "feeling", because of the different persons/combinations of persons making them (which, ironically, is in line with how the original Quake was made...). And keep in mind you can play Quake's episodes in any order. The finished RMQ will offer all of relentless combat, Lovecraftian horror, gorgeous, Unrealesque setpieces and tricks&traps. Certain mappers will just have certain preferences, which is quite natural.

There's actually a lot of stuff in the RMQ development process that bears an uncanny resemblance to the original's. Which makes the recent clan warfare seem even more ironic. It will all be clear once we reach the final release.

200 posts? Hm.

What about returning to the normal RMQ thread for discussion and letting this one die? Having two threads with on-topic discussion is pointless. 
 
lol wtf thread
baker`s mod is lame btw 
 
lol wtf thread
baker`s mod is lame btw


Another person who hasn't even got a clue what they're talking about, eh? You must be a right laugh on slashdot too.

Baker isn't involved in RMQ. 
Hey 
He might be a very respected online presence. Probably got thousands of youtube comments made. 
Ijed 
please stop 
Oh Wait, You Probably Meant That Anonymous Idiot 
 
 
There's always the possibility that Baker owns a slave who is a fan of a certain 60's youth culture and who also has a gammy leg. Hence: "Baker's mod is lame".

Boom-tsssh. Thangyew thangyew thangyew, I'll be here all night. 
Bees 
I am afraid of bees. I especially hate mail box bees. I would prefer them to go live in someone else's mailbox.

p.s. I *like* Remake Quake. Quite a bit. I like things like *Kurok* quite a bit too. I have very sci-fi Quake maps I've made and not released that even the hardcore would love, and I have total conversion maps I've made using the Quake engine that half of you would hate. I don't care if people criticise me, I'm kinda of an attention-whore, hehe. It is perhaps my only human weakness, really. 
Seriously 
You've got the same tired-ass frumpy, grumpies posting stupid reasons to hate Remake Quake.

A couple of bored dead-enders, a couple of hopeless angry people, a couple of sensations of the past that haven't posted in years, a couple knobsters like the guy who has no clue what "stock id1 Quake" means and talks a hell of lot more than his experience level to be quite honest.

Which feeds my theory: negative people are bored or dumb.

It is a mod. Do you have to play it? No. So why whine? It's still beta.

Do you know what a "game" is? It is supposed to be fun. And yet uncreative assholes have their underwear up their cracks for reasons unknown.

It is LAME. No kidding. 
 
/decided he will post 'i prefer the fifth perspective'

/decides to look it up first

/sees this http://www.hrgigermuseum.com/news/stuessi_en.html

/plate of shrimp? 
Right 
I'm kinda of an attention-whore

this explains the reason this silly thread spawned. i suggest leave baker alone here so he speaks with himself. 
You Know... 
At least a significant chunk of the last 50 posts or so has been actual constructive discussion and criticism (or at least not outright hostility and horseshit).

A couple of [list of characterizations guaranteed to stir shit up again]

Why the hell would you-

I'm kind of an attention-whore, hehe.

...oh

Re: playing the mod, or not, yeah, I guess by extension I don't have to read this thread either. That's a good point. 
Baker 
lay off the baiting. or at least take it elsewhere please 
I'm Am Baiting, But Moreso .... 
I'm illustrating. And if mindless jerks waste their time to engage me, so be it.

If the foul unwashed, uneducated, gutterkin who have posted negative comments in this this are the best this forum has to offer ... I would recommend Remake Quake post the status and ideas of their progress somewhere more healthy.

I am perpetually disappointed by loudmouths like a certain purple person who talks a hell of a lot and also makes it crystal clear he has no Quake-level of single player education. Loud-mouth dipshits do not impress me. And whether or not you are silent, the more seasoned here will admit they do not impress you either.

Whether or not you "get it", I'm totally benign. 
Knockback 
Echoing on what Tronyn said, I think the amount of Knockback from shotguns/explosives should be improved, even exaggerated. If I recalled correctly, it is one of the thing people love about Blood. 
 
Quakeone.com seems like the perfect audience indeed. 
 
Some perspective from the inside looking out.

Any kind of trash talk from either extreme does the project no favours (and I'm guilty of that myself too - witness the slapdown I handed out a few posts back). Ultimately it's just about people doing their best to make something that they think is cool and worth releasing. If somebody doesn't like it then that's OK - nobody ever said you had to - but let them form their opinion on their own. None of this is about picking sides in a fight and this isn't a bunch of 10 year olds in a schoolyard.

Spirit at least I respect. He has set out his argument supporting his position, and even if one doesn't agree with it one has to at least admit that his position is valid for him. So respect to Spirit.

Others who are attempting to paint the situation as "tedious beef" are really clutching at straws. There is actually no feeling of "tedious beef" among the team members. Sorry to disappoint you all, but that's just the way things are.

OK, there was a bit of annoyance at first, and things maybe blew out of proportion a little, but that's all history now. Things have already moved on from there. It's over.

So let the loudmouths mouth off; they're always going to find fault anyway. No big deal. This probably isn't for them, they have their own tastes (and are allowed to have them) too. 
Look ... 
Func_Msgboard has a rich history of intellectualism and elitism which anyone should admire. I certainly do.

And elitism MATTERS. Elitism is the push to do things RIGHT. To do things perfect. To tune your maps, to balance the gameplay, to use monster capabilities as chess-pieces. To get every minor detail immaculately immersed.

At the same time, it is not right when unconstructive criticism and childishness rule the day.

That kind of crap is --- from my perception -- is in part why distrans walked from this board in 2008 and in part why aguirRe hung up his hat from this board.

And a couple of people in this thread have tried to portray this as some sort of conflict of me and Spirit which is silly. I have the utmost respect for Spirit and I believe it runs both ways [Spirit sent me a book last year, I'll never forget that although he did not have to do so to gain my utmost respect ... he earned that long, long ago.]

My point in this thread is that you can be a lowest common denominator member of this 15-year-old game community or rise above that.

Being a negativistic, premature and unfair skunkbag is easy. Just throw stones at anyone who makes "things" while safely "not making things" is the perfect Monday morning quarterback refuge of safety. 
Remake Quake 
wtf is that 
Honestly 
That kind of crap is --- from my perception -- is in part why distrans walked from this board in 2008 and in part why aguirRe hung up his hat from this board.

You are perfectly correct... however I guess both gentlemen have their own reasons we cannot express for them.. 
Uh... Understood. And... 
...Can someone remember me the original title of this thread? I seem to remember a perfectly equilibrate and adult vibe to it....


"Just throw stones at anyone who makes "things" while safely "not making things" is the perfect Monday morning quarterback refuge of safety."

As stated above, this means, that me, not being a mapper have no right whatsoever to post anything here, right?

And Ricky, before you start the "And he's being advocative because it feels good to voice your opinion about other peoples shit" loop, please try to understand that I never meant to do that and that my rather rough comment above, was made in a provocative way as if to say "I did not say anything up to now, because I KNOW it would not be constructive criticism, but I feel this way about this project".

Whatever behaviour is ruled out to be "unconstructive criticism and childishness" can safely be ignored by adult thinking people without a blink, I think.

Ah, and please, people, shut down the Film thread. I don't see anyone director here, who the f**k are you to express any kind of idea? 
Yeah 
Im sorry about that btw. I was tripping balls that day, of on some other thread about not giving an 'f' anymore. 
 
"Just throw stones at anyone who makes "things" while safely "not making things" is the perfect Monday morning quarterback refuge of safety."

As stated above, this means, that me, not being a mapper have no right whatsoever to post anything here, right?


thanks for pointing that out. i hate that attitude. why should someone's opinion be invalid because they don't map? if they're playing a map, then they are the very audience the map was made for. 
@Necros/JPL/the Silent/Ricky_AwesomeMaps_T23 
Fair or not fair, the negative eruption of swamp people level of hostility in this thread proved everything I set out to illustrate in this thread littered with vicious muck.

I think the Remake Quake guys should relocate the emphasis of their development to Moddb.com. I was rather pissed when distrans got mocked back '08 for the SpaceHulk map contest, I can't speak for aguirRe and I don't claim to know whatever problems Trinca had.

But I do know that negativism and downer attitudes are only health up to a point and beyond that, it is just a swamp pit. 
The Silent 
I do want to add, I have viewed none of your comments as anything less than a candid discussion of facts. If during the course of this thread I didn't acknowledge your replies enough, it was due to the volume of other posts I was responding to. You are A++ in my book.

And Ricky, although you do post in purple I was never referring to you but rather a different purple guy who posted stupid, idiotic mean-spirited cavemen crap elsewhere.

And since I'm at it, Necros ... no I don't think it takes an active mapper to have constructive criticism whatsoever.

And likely my final comment in this thread -- being not so naive at the moment to acknowledge that some unforeseen comment could draw me back -- but I started this thread to some degree because I was simply in disbelief reading some anti-modding comments for a game I believe is still absolutely worthy of experimentation. 
Well 
This thread sucks. 
Isn't Norway A Strange Shape 
I always see it on a map and think it looks like a Bong. 
Now Look At Scandinavia 
I just re-read http://spawnhost.wordpress.com/2011/02/06/cant-argue-about-taste-at-least/ and still do not get how my point was missed. Is it really not clear how eg Nehahra and RMQ differ when looking at id1 Quake as "the game"? 
Nehahra 
Is a bunch of completely new levels, whereas RMQ is a bunch of remakes of original ID levels. Am I right? Do I win? They both have custom progs and monsters. 
 
I started this thread to some degree because I was simply in disbelief reading some anti-modding comments for a game I believe is still absolutely worthy of experimentation.

Please tell me where can I find those "anti-modding comments", because I seriously cannot see any anywhere.

Not enjoying one PC (RMQ) out of dozens is not an anti-modding attitude. 
Nehahra/RMQ 
Well as far as I can tell the biggest difference is that Nehahra was made by "established personalities" whereas RMQ --- isn't. Now there may be a bit of paranoia in that, or it may be touching on something that's been bubbling under the surface. You decide, I'm just throwing something in the air to see where it comes down. Not a big deal anyway.

...oh, and didn't Nehahra require it's own engine too...? 
Leave The Rage Elsewhere Please 
Sorry, my question was not clear. I meant to ask about the resulting game/play itself. Purely objective and on a technical (!) level. How much or what aspects did they change compared to id1. It is irrelevant how/if those changes fit the quake universe as perceived by any of us individuals.


For the record if nehahra was released now I would be quite critical. I don't really like a lot of it, especially not the earlier levels. 
I Was Just Thinking About That The Other Day 
the earlier city levels are a slog to get through, in order to get to the good shit. 
There You Go 
e1m6rq was forge city 3. grind cores and sacred trinities await :)


(not that i think either forge city or e1m6rq were bad, just a little more niche than the usual) 
 
Ijed didn't establish his personality with Warp? 
Hm? 
 
 
This is the new General Abuse thread. Haha. 
Beef Abuse Thread 
Err 
isn't quaddicted for final releases only?

Also, I don't support installing custom engines in quakeinjector, just game content. 
Re: Ijed's "name" 
ijed impressed the hell out of me, and (I would imagine) most players with Warp Spasm. But making an amazing map set like that =/= the old "established mapper" thing, or at least he didn't pick that. I cringe a bit (but tingle a lot - lol) when I imagine all the work he's done post-warp spasm.
the point is ijed did not use whatever respect he'd acquired by pushing the limits of Q1SP to create, sustain, or join some clique... instead he went and mapped more.
And for the record, who the fuck has a problem with MAPPING MORE? 
 
Yep, Ijed is very much a guy who goes mapping.

When we started out, it was very inspiring to me to watch him mapping - it started as an agreement to pass maps back and forth, pretty much.

Half of my meager mapping skill was acquired trying to get as good as he is. Roughest school you can go through.

But I think mh meant more the old mapper clique thing, as Tronyn put it. Peer groups. And there are a couple people on the team who fit that description even less.

There was an awful lot of "swamp people behaviour". So there must be some stakes involved. I mean, the last demo was pretty objectively not "sucky" by any measurement. People do this in their spare time without getting paid for, and the fact that it still works (after almost 4 years) and that there are releases is almost by definition not "sucky". That's just an astonishing thing to say. I can accept "I don't like it, it's not my cup of tea". No problem. But "all of it sucks kthx" or "its coders are just copying old stuff" is just astonishing. I don't get the slur against the coders, totally not. Is this some stone-age mappers vs. coders thing at work? Some of our coders are outstanding people. All of them, actually.

Anyone want a little more ijed in them? :-E 
Form A Queue 
 
From The Essence Thread: 
#103 posted by gb [46.142.21.159] on 2012/02/05 11:47:28
Actually some people just like to troll. The reasons are often very obvious, too - personal beef.


Okay name and shame: WHO is trolling in the context of RMQ / Quake due to "personal beef"??

I'm quite interested because although I've skimmed over lots of argumentative posts, I haven't seen anything that indicates there is anything personal going on aside from general disagreements about what is valid criticism etc etc??

Obviously there has been good beef on #func in the past, particularly with, say, Scampie or Trinca, but I didn't think anything was going on with RMQ?? 
It's Not Rocket Science 
Posts starting with "LOL" aren't really "argumentative". onetruepurple is an ex-team member and I assume his trolling has something to do with beef from the past; I can't see any other good reason for posts such as that one.

Spirit has trolled RMQ threads now and again, as well. I assume there is personal beef because of my accusing him of censorship some time ago.

Neither of that is terribly excessive, but it probably qualifies as personal beef.

Is this news to anyone? 
 
Hm, I just searched through 5-6 RMQ threads here at func and only saw minor trolling from me, usually following something that asked for it.

As long as it is called what it is called I will care and be vocal about it. I stopped giving actual feedback since it was a fruitless undertaking. I do not want people getting the impression that this has anything to do with the game Quake apart from using assets and code. Especially not that it is a updated better Quake or anything like that. The name is the issue. Otherwise I'd just ignore it (oh wait, I would troll instead).

You guys seem to have a lot of personal beef against the menagerie of fairytale fuckwits here at func though? I remember http://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/gb_palace.html 
I Reckon 
its a very touchy subject in general. nobody wants someone taking a shit on the elder god shrine. Come on, you know what i mean.

Otp seems to have a personal crusade... I'm still in the dark as to why he left. But then, i'm never on irc.

Projects don't expose themselves to this level of interaction during development, and the main thing a project needs at the start is positvity. But that's our problem. Feedback is never fruitless - you jusr have to wait until the next picking season (there's so much we want to, we have to be very feature selctive).

Again, we chose beef. Aka feedback. When it gets a bit too self intitled or insulting then we'll probably answer back in kind - we're only human. 
 
I can't speak for the OTP thing as it was before my time. I'll just say that there have been plenty of disagreements about style and direction since, some of which have blown up quite spectacularly, but all of which have been amicably resolved and with no longering fallout. For some reason that one seems not to have been.

Looking up this thread in particular I see:

Fuck This Thread Fuck You Fuck RemakeQuake

Are you really so vain as to make a thread crying about the critisms of your shitty ass mod? QfuckingQ, kill yourself.

RMQ is still a shitty ass mod.

You Didn't Seriously just make a fucking forum thread about this, did you. Your site/blog whine was already pretty borderline stupid, but this is just getting pathetic.

Now where on earth is all that coming from?

There have been constant accusations that the team is ignoring criticism and suggestions. That's not true, yet the accusations continue to fly. This needs to be balanced: the mod belongs to those who are making it and they can do what they want, but at the same time if something clearly doesn't work then it needs to be addressed. Some things may be addressed immediately (did anybody notice that monster counts came back? Thought not) and some may not be addressed for a while.

The important thing here is that just because a criticism hasn't been addressed immediately it doesn't mean it's been ignored or rejected. That should be basic stuff, but some people (and OTP in particular fits the description here) really need it drilled into their skulls.

The name is what it is: a tribute. Any other perception that people take from it is purely in the eye of the beholder. I don't seem to recall anybody on the team ever having made any other claims regarding the name; everything that's been attributed to it has come from external comments. The team are certainly not putting out the idea that it's an updated better Quake - that's something that people are reading into it themselves. 
Hm 
I've always been nonplussed by the name thing.

Internally it was what we wanted to emulate, an aspirational thing.

Some read it as a challenge or afront. I can't be arsed thinking my way through that.

Originally it was 'qrmq' because it was supposed to be rebuilding the original levels with Qouth content. 
 
The name is contentious because anybody whose idea of what the 'Essence of Quake' is differs from that of the RMQ team is not going to see it as a remake.

Personally I think it's more of a reinterpretation of Quake than a remake. It is all semantics and a rose by any other name etc. etc. but even when all is said and done, the first thing anybody knows about RMQ will be its name, so it creates preconceptions.

As far as the personal beef thing goes I think there have been some genuinely very negative responses to criticism in the past, not least a few huffy "Well I wouldn't expect anything more from Func, tsk" comments, which is the sort of thing that's going to cause beef in the first place really. The most recent release seemed to contain a lot less flaming from both sides but there was still at least one instance of Func-bashing which begs the question "why bother posting about it on Func anymore?".

At the end of the day, if you're going to embark on a project that obviously aims to challenge people's preconceptions about a much loved game you've either got to accept the bad feedback just as easily as the good, or keep the whole thing under wraps until you've fulfilled everything you wanted out of it. The RMQ team have absolute control over their mod, and whether they realise it or not they also have absolute control over what feedback they choose to take on board and what they ignore. If they find somebody offensive the absolute worst thing they can do is get in to an argument with them because it'll only distract from the original noble goal of mod creation and create a lot of negative associations with the mod. 
Wait A Minute.... 
....are people actually beefing because of the name?? What is this Dawn Of The Living Fuckwits??

It's got a name. Most things have a name. WTF. "Remake Quake". Errr it's sort of based on Quake and you're sort of remaking it. My GiveAFuckOMeter just shut down due to boredom.

The sounds on the other hand. I just randomly replayed Ricky's Ugly RMQ testmaps, there's a lot of cool stuff but I hope you guys will fix the sounds for the final release - a menu option to revert to old Quake sounds would be good. 
Also. 
Thanks for the answer gb/Ijed.

I do troll, but I troll everyone. It's not personal. I hate you all. 
Shambler 
We are going to improve the sounds, that one is on the list. Point has been taken.

As for the name, well it is possible that that will be changed also. To what exactly, at this time, I don't know..... 
Name Change 
is off the table. It involves a lot of things nobody wants to do / be involved in. 
Starting Internal Forum Fight 
in 3...
2...
How About 
"Based on Quake, but Different"

"Shake!"

"Nu-Quake"

"Death-Quake"

"Thrash-Quake"

"Black-Quake"

"Uber-Quake"

"Roid-Quake"

"Real-Mans Quake"

(That last one is my favourite because it can still be RMQ) 
 
Real Men don't play games with massive fall dmg

HOOOOOO 
Link Chuck Norris Jokes! 
 
 
if it were down to me i'd call it RMQ, dropping all references to 'RemakeQuake' and consigning it to etymology, seeing as no-one really uses that name in casual discussion anyway. kinda like how image-line renamed Fruityloops to FL Studio.

that way you get to learn about range minimum queries when searching for it in google too, educational bonus! 
That's Not Bad Actually 
 
 
Name change is off the table. It involves a lot of things nobody wants to do / be involved in."

LOL what? 
BEES 
 
Knees 
I couldn't think of anything really.

Re Metled Quake
Re MH-ed Quakespasm
Remaco
Ring Mama Quick
Ring MH Quick ;> 
I Suggested... 
..."requiem in mortem quietus" - cos it sounds so goth. 
ReMarQue 
Nothing new on the Quakern front. 
Stick With The Remake Quake Name ... 
"Any publicity is good publicity"

If the final release it the masterpiece you hope for, the large body of complaints serve to amplify awareness of your work.

Besides, none of the critics would be suddenly be your friends due to a mere wording change, that's crazy talk. No, they are in it for the trolling out of boredom.

Life isn't about getting what you want, it is about wanting what you get. And Remake Quake trolling can be made to work very well in your favor if you recognize that this is an asset, not a liability.

Or rephrased: this factor is what you make of it. And it can be your friend. Besides the idea of 250 posts of venom being just due to a name is a sheerly preposterous proposition.

What would Chuck Norris do? 
 
What would Chuck Norris do?

Get his neck snapped by Bruce Lee. 
 
"Any publicity is good publicity" is a cheap clich� reserved for cheats and failures. Don't go down that road. 
 
Agreed. Also, feedback that you don't agree with isn't automatically trolling. More likely, you just don't want to hear it. 
 
Up next - naked female Ogres 
With 
Jiggle physics. 
And "boobing" 
 
 
sadly that would right in 
Well 
The Knights now teabag a dead player... 
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