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New Q1SP: Ne_ruins
Here's my QExpo map!

Stuck atop frozen mountain peaks known as the Fingers of the Gods, your only way out lies in using the Altar of Storms to open a gateway and escape. You will need an ancient Rune to activate the Altar, conveniently held deep below ground in a buried city...

One lonely screenshot

This is a two map mod for Quake. (This is NOT a quoth map. DO NOT use quoth).

Engine Requirements

This mod requires a FitzQuake variant as some parts are completely unplayable without fog interpolation. If you just hate FitzQuake variants, then you will need to turn off fog from the console whenever you can't see.

Installation

unzip the pak0.pak file into a directory of your choosing, eg: /quake/ne_ruins

Running

run quake with: -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000 -game ne_ruins

Make sure 'max_edicts' (in the console) is set to AT LEAST 4096. 8192 to be safe. Failure to set this may result in the map crashing the engine. The pak0.pak contains a config file 'ne_setup.cfg' which should take care of this on it's own.

When using a fitzquake variant, make sure sv_protocol is set to 666 (or whatever your variant requires, 999 for RMQ I believe), otherwise you'll probably get invisible items or other oddities when recording demos (wink). I could not include a default protocol setting in config files because each engine has it's own protocol number.

Playing

Once the engine starts, select your skill level in the console by typing 'skill #' (Replace # with a number, 0, 1, 2, 3; for easy, normal, hard, nightmare.) Select 'New Game' from the menu.

if you want to record demos, you can use the "quicksave, disconnect, record, quickload" trick to record demos mid-map.

Additional notes

This mod includes an autosave feature. Every once in a while, you will see the message 'Saved to ne_autosave.sav'. You can press 'F8' to reload to that point and pressing attack or jump when dead will automatically load the autosave instead of restarting the map.
HOWEVER, if you quit the game and wish to load your autosaved game later, you will need to type 'load ne_autosave' into the console instead of pressing F8. F8 will function correctly AFTER the map has been loaded from the console.

Finally, I recommend playing with gl_texturemode 3 to disable bilinear filtering! :D

Download .zip (47mb)
Download .7z (37mb)
WHAT IS THIS ??? 
Just played to the first autosave and... DIED!...
Errr... Sorry I have to go back...
This. Is. Insanely. AWSOME!...
omfg! 
 
Fast zombies were a giggle, quad shotgun = fun, Hexen 2 spell thingies were a bit confusing at first. The slow spawns...well, usually I hate spawns, and people who use them constantly in surprise situations (neg hello) but when slower like this, ended up using them as moving trip mines which was good fun when room allowed for it :)

Boss was great, the phase switches were really stylishly handled, though the void phase gameplay wise was a little meh.

The mini-boss Frost guy was neat too :)

Generally this kind of map isn't particularly my cup of tea, but I really enjoyed the atmosphere and getting lost a few times was just part of the feel :p

I think it could have done with more traditional Quake monsters though :E 
 
btw I first ran it with directq but it kind of went a bit mental (mainly the collision detection). Switched to RMQ half way through and worked fine from then on. 
Yeah, 
i guess i should warn everyone this isn't normal quake. :) it's definitely got a more fantasy side to it. 
No Warnings Needed 
People who need warnings for things that "aren't Quake" need to question why they are holding onto ideas that just don't make any sense...

Besides, a "this is not for Quoth" warning is all that some people should need... 
Something Amazing! 
Great atmosphere, a scenario. Constant feeling of unity that places the elements and all its inhabitants. The game itself was just as exciting: the first wave of zombies for me was just a psychological attack. So many things have been interesting to be done. Thanks for the great game! 
Cant Wait To Try This 
 
Just Finished It... 
Lots of fun, great setpieces. Lots of nice little touches. (e.g. the pots, and the "surprise" pots.) New enemies worked, especially the golems which seemed to be perfect for this map. Layout was nice in that there was the illusion of route choices. Sometimes the samey-ness of the rooms and hallways made navigation difficult -- better landmarks would have helped. Also surprised there wasn't a skill-selection map. Some elements (like the pushable rotating door, and the mine traps) could have been used more. Lots of nice effects like the new blood splats -- i can see why the max_edicts need to be so high. What was the source for all the new models? 
Congrats On The Release 
This has a refreshing vibe, good new style and monsters. 
Haven't Downloaded Yet 
But seeing necros say DO NOT use quoth is an end of an era, sort of... 
Played 
Loved it. Great and refreshing theme, well built setpieces, possibly the best vistas in a map since Marcher? It felt a lot like an ice-themed sequel to Marcher. Liked the openness of the first map, though I wish it wasn't possible to wake up the boss before getting the rune.

My favorite thing about this is how it establishes its own branch of the Quake 'mythology' without a single word of exposition. That alone makes this release Quake enough :P (It makes one wish for a devkit though...)

I also found none of the 7 secrets overall... 
This Is Awesome 
I haven't finished it yet (i keep running out of ammo) but there are many parts that i liked, namely: the hordes of fast zombies, the new shotgun, breakable vases (i had to break them all - even those with the spawns, which is probably why i'm running out of ammo all the time trying to kill them :-P), the giants, the way the fog was used (most of the time i see the use of fog as an optional gimmick, but in this case i loved it), etc. I wish the vases had some ammo though :-P.

The atmosphere while not Quake-ish it feels like it could be Quake-ish if Quake had a more "cold" feeling.

I have to mention that somehow the interiors gave me a strong feeling of the Ayleid ruins from Oblivion - from the cold greenish palette and architecture to the way some "stone doors" open. I didn't paid much attention to the description parts of the .txt file and after playing it for a while i read it again to see if that was intentional. As it seems, it was, and so the desired outcome was achieved :-) 
Holy Shitballs 
This was amazing :)

Only thing that pissed me off was that I kept dying in that lava trap, either backing into it by accident or going down there on purpose to grab the MH and then dying as I cound't see any way out??? :P

That open air area in the first map was seriously impressive. What was the vis time on that one? :) 
Thanks Everyone! 
Some elements (like the pushable rotating door, and the mine traps) could have been used more.

the thing with this mod is that it continually had things added to it while the map was getting made, so stuff like the pushable rotaters were added nearly when the map was finished. also more advanced pathfinding is present but it's barely noticeable because i built all the rooms to funnel monsters through without it.

What was the source for all the new models?

reskinned tarbabies, dog and fiend were mine.

the ice blocks the frost golem uses, tiny particles and worm gear models are mine.

fast zombies are stock zombies re-animated (haha) by me.

quad shotgun is q2 super shotgun with the barrel copied and rotated 180 degrees to look like four barrels. :P

everything else is hexen2. great models in there, even though some animations are a bit iffy.
they all have custom (well, modified anyway) skins. the end boss was originally red, for example. i think the only one that is largely unchanged was the normal golem.

for sprites, the flames are from duke3d, large blood splat was from strife (awesome game) and small blood splats are from hl1.
the red and yellow magical looking sprites were from kinn's marcher. i don't know where he got them.

btw, if anyone wants to use the new zombie model for their own monster, go ahead.

i had a lot of fun animating that zombie. i think if i do another mod like this, i'd like to re-animate more of the old monsters, like that starving shambler i posted a while ago.

It makes one wish for a devkit though...
is there really interest in this kind of thing? i did not have a quoth-like developer mod in mind when i was doing this. most of these entities were not made 'mapper friendly'. some have only one purpose and are not very flexible. there also isn't many 'safety features' so it's totally possible to crash the engine without knowing why. :P

Only thing that pissed me off was that I kept dying in that lava trap, either backing into it by accident or going down there on purpose to grab the MH and then dying as I cound't see any way out??? :P
at the back of the hallway where the MH is, there's a button on the wall that opens back up to the main room.
unless... it is possible to trip the trap but not initially fall in. if you do that, the platform will not rise again and when the room floods with lava, it becomes an inescapable trap because even if you somehow opened the door, the floor is completely covered in lava.
that's one alternative that i did not plan for!

That open air area in the first map was seriously impressive. What was the vis time on that one? :)

2 minutes....... fast vised. it's just one giant room and i didn't bother with a full vis. i tried initially, but when the estimate got up to 500 hours at 45% i just gave up.
by complete luck, the fast vis cuts off the exterior geometry almost complete as soon as you walk underground. i was pleasantly surprised! :D

thanks again for the comments! i got pretty burned out at the end of this and it helps me recharge to read them! 
Necros 
... only one screenshot that looks amazing... I have to download the stuff and play it at home now !

More feedback later ;) 
 
The screenshot is tasty but wait until you enter the game. I have not beaten the boss yet but this is jaw-dropping. The ruins map is a bit too samey for my taste and I often felt lost or unable to fulfill my desire to explore everything properly. But the "fillings" easily make up for this. Ice boss fight was just unreal, wow, the effects. And then the actual (I think) boss fight. Bloody fantastic.


Some people do not realise they have to simply start a new game (load start.bsp), it might be a good idea to add this in bold to the first post. 
 
yeah, the file names are a bit nonstandard. i just wanted it so you could use the start new game menu but i suppose a proper start map with skill settings would have been in order. i kind of ran out of steam at the end there and just really wanted to release this sucker. :) 
JESUS 
THANKS A FUCKING LOT necros, NOW MY MAP LOOKS EVEN SHITTIER THAN IT DID BEFORE.

Seriously though, this is pretty damn breath taking, might even kick Marcher out of top place for Most Epicest Map Ever award, if it existed. Your skills are truly humbling. 
What To Say 
I think it should be clear by now that anything released by necros is going to be outstanding, and this is no exception.

I don't know where to begin. The great environments, the new and altered monsters, the gameplay, the level details, its all fantastic. I'm having trouble finding any sort of criticism, but the only thing I can think of is not using more of those doors like the silver key door. That made my jaw drop the first time I saw it :)

Even though I'm not a huge fan of colored lighting, I didn't find this bad at all. It really set the mood to the theme, a theme I've never seen done before in Quake, but you pulled it off nicely.

My final verdict: Play this now. Its incredible and hopefully we'll get to see more of it in the future.

I included a first run demo of ne_ruins, but not the start map, as I didn't know at the time that the start map played a crucial role in the gameplay, before and after.

http://qrf.servequake.com/~orl/misc/orl_ne_ruins.7z

Great job as always necros :) 
Uh 
seems everyone has said everything. I thought there were more than enough regular enemies in this, and REALLY enjoyed everything about it. Seriously, if you watch my demo all I say is "awesome" or "Jesus, fuck" over and over again. Congratulations on releasing a more or less definitive release Necros, even if it isn't 'quake'. Definitely good enough for me. I actually would have liked it if there were even more wandering before combat began in earnest, with more grenade traps, and etc.

Another thing you might notice is that I accidentally skipped out on a part of the map, activating the GK lift before properly exploring the gears area. don't know what I missed, but I'll make sure to check it out the next 10 times I play this!

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/start_drew.7z 
Oh 
and I thought the boss combat was the best thing evar. 
Have Set Aside Tomorrow 
to play this uninterrupted.

These comments have me salivating. 
Same Here... 
I'm just holding it back to savour everything properly... 
 
Don't really have much to add that hasn't already been said, pretty fun!

I really liked the outdoor areas with the cliffs and snow, the crisp and clear textures, the mountains and constructions in the distance, and of course sloped terrain that allows you to gain speed! Always great.

I also enjoyed the main (underground) part of course, lots of room for movement and different maneuvers. Fast zombies were hilarious and fun to fight, especially considering they went down with one shot with whatever weapon, even the nailgun.

The only thing I thought was a bit "meh" was the final boss fight in the void area, as I basically resorted to just waiting out in the healing pools while the boss did his thing, jump out and fire at him a little, and repeat until he died. The mechanism and moving parts of the architecture was pretty impressive, though.

Here's my skill 3 demo, though I forgot to restart the recording once I reached the final map, so no boss fight:

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/ne_ruins_bern.7z 
Very Nice Map 
I did both skill 0 and skill 3 just now on 2 trys and one of my only real complaints is that there was hardly a difference between the skills. I took quite some risks a the end fight ignoring the stone golems (did pick up a ring at some point) getting close to deliver that punch with that shotgun. As berntsen said the endfight is a bit to easy , especialy since the void is safe to

Didnt find (nor look hard) of the secrets, maybe thats the hard part :) 
Easy Run 
well sort of atleast, if i dont kill the hordes my quake behaves like it has parkinson, so just the first finish i got and no optimusing :)

http://members.upc.nl/verorber/ne_ruins_orbs.dz 
Wow... 
...just WOW.

Necros, yours are the fingers of god... 
Nice Coding 
of progs and the theme is awesome!
Really enjoyed this one...
Necros anyone?!? He wins... Hehe 
A Great Work 
i run it in darkplaces so wery impressive, thanks a lot for having fun especially for me since i very love hexen2 )) 
Great Demos Everyone! 
orl, you're lucky i made a final pass and added extra ammo! it's not normally balanced to kill all the tarbabies! they don't count for kills, but i guess you just couldn't leave them be knowing they're in there. ;)

drew, i only got to see you play the start map. when you went into the end level trigger, the engine seemed to load the next map fine, but then it just skipped over everything and started up again when you returned to the start map. :P
still, it was fun to see you take on the boss!

berntsen, pretty meticulous playing. :) also, i didn't realize it was possible to make the jump from the stairs to the ledge for the RL secret without ramp jumping! i used to have to ramp jump UP the stairs then curve back around to land on the edge. hence why you get the RL (i figured it was a serious trick jump so probably only speed runners would get it) but then you just jumped up there like it was nothing. lol!

optimus, badass quad rj up the tall shaft! :D about the slow down, the pathing ai is pretty rough on the engine and the further you are from a monster, the longer it takes for it to get a path to you. so yeah, whenever there's hordes of zombies, i kind of had to force the player to kill them. for speed running, it's probably not really an ideal map due to it's enormous scale as you just have these long treks across the rooms. still, it was worth it just for that quad rocket jump. when you took the right turn to the shaft without getting the GK and you still had the quad, i was like, 'huh? yeah!' ^_^;

i run it in darkplaces
i'm happy this worked! i was worried there might be something gamebreaking in it as i never tested it heavily, just ran through once or twice. 
 
they don't count for kills

Now you tell me?! 
 
maybe i should have added that in the achievement. "...even though they don't count for anything."
sorry dude! :( 
Yeah.... 
i had to test to see if the "jarbabies" had any effect on monster count ... once i saw that they didn't, i avoided waking them. 
Started Into This... 
...last night, then discovered I'm going to spend a good while enjoying this, so I'll be revisiting it this weekend when I've got some time and mood lighting. 
Impression 
You know, when I finished the map and read the congratulations, I hit the jump key as usual.

And the jump sound reverberated in this dark space. I hardly understood that if was not a real feature but just my impression getting so high.

Thank you Necros. 
A Typo 
*it 
Really? 
do you have to dis/re for that as well? 
This Was Seriously Amazing 
most of it has been said but I think the greatest thing about it is that it should never have possible in quake's limitations. That was the thing that struck me most.

No wonder zwiffle is depressed :) 
SPOILERS If You Visit The Images 
dpmod
fog 0.1 1 1 1 1 64
and

{
"classname" "info_notnull"
"mins" "-2500 -3500 0"
"maxs" "0 -2000 2000"
"absmin" "-2500 -3500 0"
"absmax" "0 -2000 2000"
"nextthink" "0.1"
"think" "snow_think"
"dest" "0 0 -100"
"count" "1000"
"cnt" "13"
}


results in snowgasm (and low framerate):

SPOILER, do not watch these if you have not played it yet. Seriously, you will regret it.

http://www.quaddicted.com/stuff/
ne_ruins_snow1.jpg
1 to 5! 
 
Others have pretty much voiced my opinions, hopefully I'll get a review posted up on my site soon though. Pretty sure I set it to and played on skill 2, demos: http://taw.duke4.net/rqr_ne_ruins.rar (ps: messed around a bit too much with the silver key gate in the 3rd demo, only then realised the neat effect!) 
 
Every once in a while a spectacular map comes and reminds me that in Quake, possibilities are endless. Upon loading the map I was struck in awe - sure, I've seen amazing vistas before... but that early evening sun smoothly falling upon the vast, snowy landscape - was this really Quake, that fifteen year old love?

I am generally irritated by poorly done additions to the stock bestiary but this time, all the custom stuff and the little touches felt right at home - great work as always, Necros. I was getting ready for a combat-heavy setup (thus opted out of recording a demo) but pleasantly surprised by the Hexenesque, adventure-like flow of the map. By the way, the outro is without a doubt the best I've ever seen in Quake and added much to the satisfaction of having experienced a work of art.

Congratulations. 
 
but that early evening sun
fuck, i forgot to credit hipshot for his awesome skybox! :x

that's miramar. if you want to see it in original form (i compressed the tgas to save space) get them here: http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9242
there are five fantastic skyboxes he made, all in high res!

I was getting ready for a combat-heavy setup
yeah, i'm starting to enjoy slower paced gameplay now. i guess i'm getting old, lol! 
Necros 
This has been a long time I never felt so immersed in a game (last one was for COD2 and Doom3... so to say...)
Holy shit !! How did you built all that ? You just disgusted me from continuing mapping man ;) !! I will feel so ridiculous with maps now :P

This map is really fantastic, awesome, marvelous, etc.. I can't find words for such jewel. I didn't see something so brilliant since a while... As others said, even "Bastion of the Underworld" and "Marcher Fortress" are far away behind you.
I am so happy to see how much miracles are still possible to build with Quake today.

Really, you made me really happy since a long time, almost you teared my eyes... not to say I was about to cry :) ...

Please we need more Quake mod/maps like this... congratulations, I guess you won the 'mapper of the year" title ;)

Keep it up !!

PS: BTW, it would be cool if you could release a kind of "user manual" for this mod ;)

PS2: metlslime ! We need a double beer icon for necros !! ... or even a barrel beer for him !! 
Awesome 
played an early version of this, and I'm looking forward to reviewing the final release for Quaddicted. I'm sure it will be even more awesome! Great job Necros, & as always can't wait to see what you come up with next..! 
 
Wow. This was epic. Everything looked beautiful but especially the beginning and the end sequence. Also the high quality new monsters and additions fit the map very well. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
skill 1 demo ( I have lost the beginning after dying from firs encounter with fas zombies). btw. quick zombies are fun.
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/ne_ruins_demos_ankh.zip 
 
i just realized i forgot to include the new skin for the fast zombies.
oh well, i guess it's pretty obvious they're a different type. :P

your demo was pretty funny, ankh! you had me going when you pushed forward after awakening the 4 statues and then hiding out on top of the water wheel mechanism before sprinting into the next room. :D
i was amazed you pulled that off, well done! 
 
sent us the skin necros!!! 
2nd Pass Through.. 
... Skill 3.

Pretty manageable, I must say, with a little ammo shortage in the rune section, but very doable.

Only found 3/6 secrets so far.

A coupla questions & something to be pointed out..

1- Is it possible to get 100% kills in the intro? I supposed not because of the end boss being there, but I still get sometinhg like 6/11 kills. I guess they should be like, 6/7.

2- On skill 3 I only got like 270 kills, but the total counter keeps growing at the end, starting from 330 up (I quit around 347)... What's up with this?

A coupla observations, as well: I tried to wake the boss from the lower zone, then opened the door with the rune and awaited there, trying to start infighting beetween the boss & Ice golem, but, alas, the monster shot 2 fireballs at me and then got back up through the mountain , getting stuck on the side of the main altar. From there, I can damage him up to the point of having him open the portal, but then it's over. He cannot be damaged and cannot enter the portal either, 'cause h's stuck. All you can do at this point is go through the portal yourself, maul the remaining golems on the other side, then quit and go for a beer (or 15)...

One last thing: the lavababies summoned by the boss are teh aw3som3, but they fall too far from the player, freezing before having a chance to attack. Is this intentional? Their ranged attack is fantastic. 
 
trinca: http://necros.slipgateconstruct.com/temp/zombie2.zip (156kb) (.bmp and .psd, although the psd probably isn't very useful as i tend to just palette shift manually when working with quake skins (ie: open up an image of the quake palette, pick a colour using the dropper tool, use magic wand selection tool to select all pixels of one colour on the skin, and replace them in one batch.))

in my mind, the original zombies are the zombies that have been around for years. their bodies held together purely by whatever magic or somesuch. if that magic was removed in one go, i sort of picture them just completely falling apart. (like that one guy in cube zero who gets sprayed with super acid and melts within seconds).
the fast zombies were freshly converted, still retaining some of their humanity and their minds marginally functional. hence why they can run and know it's not generally a good idea to tear pieces of themselves off of their bodies.
the skin was supposed to reflect this and look like he was 'fresh' and still had some skin that wasn't all rotted off.

the result just looks ugly and there's a fullbright i think i missed. honestly, it's pretty bad, and i'm sort of glad i forgot to include it.

the silent:
Is it possible to get 100% kills in the intro? I supposed not because of the end boss being there, but I still get sometinhg like 6/11 kills. I guess they should be like, 6/7.
not on the initial run through, definitely, because the boss counts as a kill.

On skill 3 I only got like 270 kills, but the total counter keeps growing at the end, starting from 330 up (I quit around 347)... What's up with this?
there's a monster count bug somewhere... i don't know exactly where though. i tracked down (i think) all the instances where total_monsters is modified in the code, but i must have missed something.
that's why the kill count is inflated in the second map. this was very very frustrating and i just gave up since most of the maps (2/3) don't have the intermission screen anyway.

A coupla observations, as well: I tried to wake the boss from the lower zone, then opened the door with the rune and awaited there, trying to start infighting beetween the boss & Ice golem, but, alas, the monster shot 2 fireballs at me and then got back up through the mountain , getting stuck on the side of the main altar.
i was experimenting with a tethering code for monsters. anyone who's played WoW will immediately recognize the behaviour where, if you run from a monster for a while, it'll run back to it's start point and have it's health reset to 100%.
the WoW engine has fairly decent pathing that allows them to get back to wherever they need to go. unfortunately, quake doesn't, so i basically made him noclip through the world if he doesn't get back into his spot fast enough.
i must have messed something up though, because it sounds like he didn't fully reset position when noclip was turned off resulting in him being left partially inside geometry.

the lavababies summoned by the boss are teh aw3som3, but they fall too far from the player, freezing before having a chance to attack. Is this intentional? Their ranged attack is fantastic.
yes, this is intentional! :D

this boss' gameplay is loosely based on prince malchezzaar from WoW.
in a very early version, the meteor storm was just explosive meteors, and you had to hide out in the towers or risk getting pasted.
at the time, he didn't crouch down, and kept attacking during the meteor storm and this was boring and really random so the meteors were changed to spawn stationary fires.
this was still fairly boring because the fires either had to do tons of damage to make players stay away from them, and then they were unfair and annoying, or they did such low damage that players just ignored them.
so i swapped to monster spawning.
the initial implementation of lavababies was to just keep them spawning in until you were swamped with them and had to take the time to kill them.
this was a bit overkill, as you can imagine. also, that map is pretty rough on the engine with the high wpoly, so having dozens of lavababies running AI and spawning dozens of sprites each was killing even my machine.
so the freezing thing was kind of natural, since it makes a lot of sense with the map and accomplishes the whole 'increasing obstacles' that i wanted without killing the player or his computer.
it also makes it (i hope) clear that killing them is not a priority. 
Oh! 
btw... if anyone's bored...

load the start map and type in the console:
notarget
sv_friction 0
developer 5


this activates ski mode! then use impulse 103, 104 and 105 to teleport up to some of the mountain tops!
you don't need to press any movement keys; you will 'ski' in the direction you are facing. 
 
The extra skin looks more like snow zombies if anything.

Also, what happened here (sorry for the fullbright):

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/ruinswhat1.jpg
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/ruinswhat2.jpg

 
Thank you, I snorted so loudly that the people around me (train) gave me weird looks. Can't wait to get home. :D


I absolutely love your monsters. Finally someone who gets it. Blindly attacking monsters are so boring in my opinion. Good monsters have distinct patterns in movement,combat and require (or encourage) specific actions from the player (good metroid games and the like are examples). 
 
I thought blindly attacking monsters were typical for Quake. 
Zombies Approaching Critical Mass... 
good lord! that made me laugh too, but a couple of people thought i sneezed.
a hiccup in the spawn checker i guess. must not happen often because i've never seen that before. (trust me, i'd remember THAT).

thanks though, i'll have to look into better ways of checking empty spawn points. i tried a different method from quoth this time, what i like to think of as a 'deferred' spawn check.
the spawner has it's own touch function that is supposed to delay any spawning done. since touch is always called before thinks, this should have worked flawlessly. oh well. :P

thanks spirit, re: monsters. :)
i tried not to make the same mistakes i made with quoth monsters.
in particular, i made sure health stayed low and attacks were dodgeable.
i was also quite pleased to see some people figured out they could jump to avoid the golem knockback. (well, technically, 'knock up' but uh...) 
Necros 
the amount of thought you seem to have put into this pack and its various elements is very impressive. 
Ha 
I meant the skiing idea. How awesome an easter egg would be where you spawn the player on skis(?) on top of the highest mountain. 
Yeah 
That skiing thing was ace. 
You Is Necrius, Genos. 
... 
Quake Map Of The Year 
Nothing much to add here, just to mention that anyone who likes Quake must play this. Even with Darkplaces (which I used), it looks absolutely fantastic.

The architecture, the gameplay, the atmosphere - there is not a single flaw in the whole thing. Besides maybe that it is eventually over and you are screaming for more. :) 
Sidenote 
How awesome would it be if the frozen lake was E4-style bottomless? 
Breathtaking 
Loaded this thing in QuakeSpasm... and the world stopped for 2 hours. This was like a demo of Hexen 3 with Quake weapons. And I just LOVE Hexen 2 and Quake. This map/mod was a journey through the best that FPS games ever had to offer! Thank you from the bottom of my heart!

One MAJOR flaw: there was no award for finding and axing all the frozen spawns (or did I miss some?) ;)

I also found 3/6 secrets (and I would never jump to the RL other than circle jump from the corridor, I can't even imagine how would a ramp jump to that place look like!) I rocket jumped to some unfinished rooms, behind some weird player clips in the moutains, but that's all not a problem, just a pity there were no secrets there ;) 
 
What a fucking experience!!!

This map rockz so much that I'm still with my eyes bleeding of suck a diamond...

The ambience is simple fantastic... what can more be said? You are for sure one of the top 3 mapper in the hole world!

demo... I screw the demo near end because of a bind I had to another map :( I suck :(

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/ne_ruins_trinca.rar 
 
otp: How awesome would it be if the frozen lake was E4-style bottomless?
which lake is this? sorry, i can't recall.
i did want to do more with that outdoor area, but i was basically at the edge of nearly all map limits and was cutting things out to make everything fit.

trinca: thanks for the demo! you are one hyper player! :D

unsurprisingly, some of the qc is broken by DP. the bouncing trip mine bombs are bugged out and it seems the tracelines used by the frost golem's special attacks fail for some reason. :( 
The One 
with the frost golem.

It wouldn't explain the waterfalls though... 
Hehe 
no i meant, what bottomless lake in E4?
i can't recall any. 
Umm 
The ones in start.bsp and E4M2 where you fall through the water? :P 
 
thanks necro sorry for the fucking binf that screw demo :(

you rockzzz, god of mapping you make us cry of happiness 
 
oh, you mean where the water is suspended. sorry, i misunderstood. :) 
Great 
I played it twice, right after as well.

Reminded me of the mountains of madness. 
If Anyone Is Interested In Poking Around... 
5/6 Secrets This Time \o/ 
Played on skill 3 and it was still faster and easier this time (just from map knowledge), just a bit of ammo problems. Last time the void fight took me few minutes, with killing golems, getting ammo, healing in the pools... This time I came prepared and just emptied SNG and LG at the boss, took few seconds :) 
Ne_ruins Start.map 
Now THAT is how you do tri-soup. By hand. With love. Just - "Yes!" ;D 
 
Jaw-dropping really, and kept me up to 1am when i should know better than to start a Necros map late at night ;> ...But lots of flaws too. I don't think mixing lava and ice themes themes has ever worked. 
It's All 
Explained by magic.

Including Necros' mapping, and modding abilities... 
'lots Of Flaws' 
really? I disagree with the ice/lava issue you have - I think it works incredibly well! 
 
i'm sorry you didn't really like the theme.

i felt that it would work out ok since it's really really far below ground. that and, like ijed said, magic always has these kinds of mixes... 'frostfire' and such.

i was originally planning to slowly introduce more and more fire themed monsters as you got closer to the fire golem, but due to map limits, i only got to add 2/3 of the complete miscarcand layout (the full miscarcand is 3 seperate levels, the last part being where the outdoor canyon is).
this is why it's kind of disjointed where you just go up to the surface for no reason, and then go right back down again. :P

when you first go into the fire golem's room, and you go up the very first flight of stairs, if you look left, there's just empty dead end hallway. that was about where the connection from the missing dungeon section would have come in (actually one level higher with stairs down where the waterfall cavern is)

otoh, i've started to think i should have made the end boss a frost themed monster.

his 'story' is that he's an outsider there (hence the fire instead of ice) which is why he gets destroyed by the altar after you weaken him, but thematically, it would have made more sense at first glace to have him have a frost flavour instead of fire. 
Gorgeous 
very pretty.. loved the openness, interiors reminded me of oblivion somehow. 
A Golems Are Looking Like That C-3PO Guy 
from the SW 
Hello Aard 
theres a blast from the past :) 
Finally 
got around to beating it. What an awesome map. Great stuff. I have never had mapping envy as strong as this before. You are a god. 
Eye Carrumba! AI Carrumba! 
Drake, Rubicon2, RMQ, and now this, Not Quoth! What a year. Game ideas and implementation are really superb. The mdl animation quality and some skins seen here are great. I still think the .mdl format is cool and effective (for horde combat).

Really fine gameplay, atmosphere and architecture, that kept getting better, especially after the first Iceman episode. Only thing not liking much is the autosave thing, and a visual glitch where white lines or dots are seen (between brushes?) in some areas.

Anyways, this mod is aces around here. Wow... 
 
about the autosave, why didn't you like it? maybe i shouldn't have put a centerprint? or do you just mean you didn't like the stutter as the engine is saving?

and a visual glitch where white lines or dots are seen (between brushes?) in some areas.

yeah, neg mentioned that to me when he tested, but i don't see it. must be something to do maybe with video cards? i have no clue, sorry. 
 
Yea the stutter and the predictability that some event is about to happen. Also, I mainly use my saves due to my habits (haven't used an autosave ever as far as I remember).

Lines must be my card or gl settings, I'll fiddle around a bit. When making maps, I can create those same lines. Eventually I figuered out how to avoid the white lines by brush technique. I don't know if it's the same problem in both cases though. 
Must Admit I Agree 
Dont get me wrong stil very positive about this map but:

i saw indeed the same glitches, could it maybe be setttings aswell?

the autosaving was VERY meh, autosaving realy is consolegame crap to me. So unhardcore, its for the weak at heart and mind. Even for casual play it completly gets me out of my trip, i could go get a drink instead of suffer from severe dehydration i could go to the toilet instead of using my Progamer's Peebottle i could pick up the phone and be friendly & helpfull to the one who's calling all factors wich realy are a major setback to the experience.

Reasons: centerprint/stutter/If i would die i would restart the whole thing anyway/ if i want to safe for some reason it will most likely be a at a point i choose/ and as said above it realy gives me a console game feeling


But luckily there was enough cool stuff to compensate for this and i even set myself to endure it and record a demo. But stuff like that does stop me from replaying it

I was thinking myself to making "WoW like" bossfights for quake a while ago. In coop you could even slightly think about classes or having different players on certain tasks.And a good boss fight can last a while atleast imo:)

Like someone said in the end it was just stocking up cells and or nails and not much strategy involved. For that mather the last boss on unforgiven3 was a bit better if... it wouldnt have been reachable with quad. You might want to set or control in some way what the player will have when the fight starts so you can design the fight more accurate

But it migth be hard to make something like this with quake's limitations, but hey this whole map looked hard to make within those limits to me :) 
Autosave 
Yeah, make it optional. impulse toggle for people who want it, but off by default. 
One More Thing 
the worst thing about center print messages is that it is center :) If it would be in top or bottom of your screen it would be far less in the way. 
 
Eventually I figuered out how to avoid the white lines by brush technique. I don't know if it's the same problem in both cases though.

well, all those chamfered corners are func_walls, so it's possible that on some settings there's a visible seam since those areas are not one full mesh.
if so, then the flicker is unavoidable. making the bevels a func_ was pretty much necessary-- it cut vis time down from astronomical units levels to a mere 3 hours. this is with willem's/tuna's multicore fix and only 2 cores.

the autosaving was VERY meh, autosaving realy is consolegame crap to me.
this made me quirk my eyebrow, to be honest. not autosaving and restarting the map from scratch when dying seems far more consoleish than an autosave.
i never enjoyed those early console games like sonic or mario because the thought of starting over from scratch drove me crazy. when pcs started getting fast enough (and programmers started making them) emulators were how i finally did end up playing all those old games and i have to say things like platformers are a lot more fun when you can save whenever you want.
even now, if i have forgotten to quicksave during a map, i'm likely to just drop it and not bother trying again if i died.
i suppose that's the main reason i implemented an autosave as i really tend to make stuff for me. :)

in any case, i'll see about removing the centerprint to make it more seamless (heh, ironic we're talking about seams above :P).
i think maybe the placement of the triggers could have been done better. instead of making an autosave right before an event, for example, make them in general lull areas instead of something. i've never worked with autosave points before so i'm just learning. 
 
autosaving realy is consolegame crap to me. So unhardcore, its for the weak at heart and mind

Whereas the ability to save at any time, anywhere, an unlimited amount of times is teh hardc0re 
I Already Thought 
..it was kind of a cool feat you figured out not seen in quake before (atleast i havent). But since you even mentioned it stuttered the game i geuss it's not 100% satisfactory implemented. And i do agree its nice to have a option to safe, but I dont realy see the added value of having it automated if its at the cost of perfomance (especialy if your map is already stretching the limits quite bad), since "as zealous says" we already have an option to safe at any point.

About the Eyebrow quirking i was overexeguarating a bit i dont have have a peebottle either, honoustly (well ok i had one but now it serves as my favorite drinking cup).

I geuss everyone has their own favorite way of playing maps, and i noticed (and i can imagine from a mappers PoV) its popular to post first time demos here. I have been trying that on some of the latest releases and it can be fun to not want to die on that first exploring attempt (but usualy die not being able to withhold myself from taking chances:)).
But my classic way is to examine the architecture explore the monsters & items potentialy using god/safegames/quad/allweapons/notarget/trigger visible/ to see if hard moves are possible etc etc, then plan a route and then start playing for real.

For recording demos i kind of dislike the level change without a proper intermission screen with time and stats, but thats not a big one at all. 
Now, That's Playing Like A Man! 
Kudos! 
 
ideally, i'd love to have it completely transparent like hl2 does it where you don't even know it's autosaving until you die and the autosave is just there.
quake doesn't seem to write save files very quickly though, for some reason.
it's not like some games where the save file is 20mb or whatever so i don't really know why it takes that long. if you look, your typical save is less than 1mb which should be written almost instantaneously. maybe hl2 and newer games have a background saving process whereas quake halts everything until it's done writing? i dunno. :P 
 
func_walls is where I got them also. I got a square hole filled with func_walls to get a circled hole. In the middle of all 4 sides, 2 triangle brushes meet at a pin point. If the texture behind this pin point is not the same as the func_wall, I'll get white lines.

If some videocards get beyond this, then that's great. 
 
tjunctions maybe? You should be able to at least make them less apparent by using gl_clear 0 but then noclipping is borked. 
 
yeah, i was just thinking that spirit.
splitting the geometry that way prevents the tjuncs from being created, i suppose. 
 
Didn't have luck with gl_clear 0. It's best if the videocard takes care of this automatically though. Mappers shouldn't have to worry about func_walls. 
A Glitch 
When you first time enter the corridor with eight bouncing bombs, look back and you'll see the most distant walls being clipped:
http://www.primefan.ru/stuff/quake/clip.png 
 
yep :)

there are a few spots where this happens actually.
the bit that disappears is actually an external bsp model. (go in that hallway and type r_drawentities 0 to see which ones).

i was literally scraping the bottom of the barrel near the end for more vertices so i made a couple of the ceiling areas in those hallways external bsps to free up enough verts for some secret areas.

half the coffins are external bsps as well. specifically, the ones by the SK and the ones with the 4 golem room (where they pop up out of the ground).

if i had the patience, i think i could have gone even furthur and made ALL the ceilings in the map external bsps. the rooms are so huge that dynamic light rarely needs to be shown on them. but there'd probably a lot more flickering that i'd have to manually fix. (you can fix it by adjusting bbox size of the external bsps, but it has to be just right or it might go over the limit of # of leafs that an entity can be in) 
 
the limit of # of leafs that an entity can be in

Interesting, nice to know this will be a problem as I replace geometry and such myself :E 
Absolutely Loved It 
Best thing I've played in a long time. Great work necros, loved the look and the mood! Quad barelled shotgun was pretty cool too :D Not much feedback I can give really. Just awesome work. When it comes to autosave, I really appreciated it, forgot to save and died 3/4 of the way through by a stupid mistake, and was very happy to find out it had autosaved, otherwise I would have surely stopped playing. 
 
I set the monster way of moving through path_corner. Will it still use path_nodes to find the path between path_corners? 
 
no. path_nodes were added long after the map was built, so all path_corners were already set up to 'baby' monsters.

it's something i want to do though, since it really makes sense. otoh, how i did pathfinding atm is fairly hard on the cpu so in a way, it might be a good idea not to do that.

i might create a completely new walking method for path_dynamic_corner in the case of path_corners bound to moving entities or something, while still leaving static path_corners with their light-weight ai pathing, or maybe just a flag you can set... 
Interesting 
Have you looked at the Lazarus method?

It seems the documentation has vaporised, but what they enabled the mapper to do was include various chains of path_corners which linked up major areas, but weren't continual from one side of the map to another.

What a monster would do when alert was pick the nearest corner to the player and then work backwards, checking which of the path sections it would need to follow from its current position to reach the player - the ends of each section having to be within 256 of each other in order for it to follow.

Whilst idle it'd choose a random chain within 256 and follow it to its end, then repeat.

We've got a 'smart figgin' system which doesn't require path_corners, although some mapping concessions have to be made for awkwardly shaped areas. 
 
Why not just use FBX waypoints in singleplayer, guys? Shouldn't that be a really obvious possibility? 
 
What a monster would do when alert was pick the nearest corner to the player and then work backwards, checking which of the path sections it would need to follow from its current position to reach the player - the ends of each section having to be within 256 of each other in order for it to follow.

he was talking about inactive walking monsters. active monsters already behave this way.
you can read the first section of this: http://necros.slipgateconstruct.com/2011/07/how-to-map-for-ne_dynamic/ for a description of how the new pathfinding works.

Why not just use FBX waypoints in singleplayer, guys? Shouldn't that be a really obvious possibility?

that's exactly what it does. there's just no code for searching for items and weapons, but the map is full of interconnected path_nodes. and if fbx uses A* then it's probably very nearly identical. 
 
this just occurred to me, but it'd be pretty bad ass if you could define certain locations as 'important' and then have monsters patrol between important areas randomly via nodes. 
That's 
Kind of what I was suggesting. Active monsters don't intelligently follow a player - they just point to wherever they are and run in that direction, getting stuck in corners or wobbling back and forth on ledges.

Maybe didn't explain it well.

And yeah, FBX simplifies it a lot since the code is already there. 
Wow, Cool 
Can this really be quake?

It's a long time since I've had quake running properly, and this was a good map to start on again :) I've been playing it in stages and have gotten lost a bit, but it's seriously awesome. Oh, and I haven't found a single secret yet :) 
Reviewed! 
I probably missed some points, but I didn't want to bog it down too much than I've already written. http://taw.duke4.net/2011/07/quake/the-altar-of-storms/ 
Thanks! 
good read and i agree about the boss fight and the underused stuff.

the healing pools during the final boss actually do run out, but i think i set their health too high at 100hp each.
they are different from the pools in phase1 too, so if you used up all of the phase1 pools, you'd still get fresh pools in phase2, so it's a total of 600hp.

if i had been placing health packs, that would have been 24(!) large health kits. :P

probably should have at least linked the phase1 and phase2 pools and maybe lowered it to only 50hp each or something. 
 
Less would have definitely helped. Heck, maybe be cruel and turn them into lava when they run out, ha! 
How About. 
A crusher in each pool. 
Oh Yes 
The fast zombies are genius. Really enjoyed them :) 
 
ye mwh fun to blast then with NG

was my favorit new monster! but like then all

the two packs in qexpo, this one from necros and the other tronyn and PM, made me lost many hours of fun :) not regretted at all 
Holy Shit... 
This map is insane! I'm a little late to play it, but I couldn't believe the quality of this map, the end boss was especially awesome (and hard, played on nightmare)

Nice touch with the swinging physics gate, that was quite a surprise. And am I the only one who noticed the design being taken straight out of Oblivion :P 
 
nope. you're also not the only one to miss that in the readme. ;)
the layout is even based on miscarcand. i had just come off another oblivion binge when i started that map.
ironically, i'm playing it again now. :P

oblivion is like quake. you can just keep going back to it. just, quake doesn't crash as often. :P 
 
It'd be interesting to see what you'd come up with using the Daedric ruins style of architecture found in Morrowind. *nudge nudge* 
 
something similar to nesp10 ;)
the daedric style from morrowind is pretty problematic for quake though as it's very 'spikey' with lots of bits that stick out from the wall. this leads to huge amounts of vis leafs which can bump up vis times even if you just had small corridors so i never attempted a full scale version.
i do have a recreation of WoW's upper blackrock spire + blackwing lair that i want to get out before the end of the year but that one only uses the layout and doesn't actually look use the dungeon's style. (it's q1met instead of dwarven stone stuff) 
 
Molten Span, Lower Blackrock Spire and BlackRock depths have killer layouts/look fantastic. Seriously, I reckon you'd barely have to change the flow to have some great maps out of them... 
Blackrock Depths 
was an awesome map. i was really pissed they got rid of it. it was a pain to get a group together long enough to do it, but you could get a few solid hours out of it and really gave that epic dungeon feel.

i wanted to do that one instead actually, but the non-axial nature of the map and the wide opened areas wouldn't really work out well in quake. or rather, it would be a colossal amount of work to reproduce it properly.

ubrs and bwl are both very simple in terms of layout and are completely on axis making it simpler to build. 
 
BWL is pretty shit as a layout, since it's just room/corridor/room, but brs, especially lower is awesome. If you were going to do the whole thing that would be cool, but if you wanted to do something more managable, I'd do lbrs or brd :)

Come to think of it... you could probably make something awesome from Dire Maul... or Shadowfang keep. Or Blackfathom depths. I recall thinking each of those had awesome flow. :)

urgh if only the wow map viewer wasn't a hacked program :( 
 
yeah, dire maul west was pretty good. i have found memories of north though and tribute runs. ^_^

shadowfang and blackfathom are both quite offaxis and would be a pain to make though. scarlet monastery though would be cool. 
 
Yeah but if you think about the layout, going through the town below shadowfang, up the spire of rock, across the bridge, then the fact the map follows the battlements around the castle too. Pretty sweet :) 
Hi! 
Errr so yeah I finally got around to these. Tried them on my laptop but Fitz ran to slow and Spirit recommended me so gay-ass shit engine that made them buggy as fuck. Finally did a playthrough on my fixed machine with Fitz and woah this is cool.

So, great atmosphere, funky style, cool designs outside, well balanced gameplay and the modified stuff was okay. Shotgun was useful but could do with a Quakey model. Golems were fun to fight but could do with a Quakey model. Sorceresses were fairly gay. Speed zombies were cool, would be even cooler if they were still explosive only. Hidden spawn were fun.

Boss combat was mental, but in a good way. The effects on the snow bit were spectacular for Quake, real strong atmosphere with it gradually filling up with freezing fire spawn. Not too horrible to play as boss combats go... 
 
Shotgun was useful but could do with a Quakey model.

yeah, totally.
this was originally a tri-barrel with a kitbashed q1 SSG with a SG barrel glued on top. but damage was too low and the gun was changed to a quad barrel. but just glueing 2 SSGs together still looked like a regular SSG in first person so i had to use a totally different model. :\

Speed zombies were cool, would be even cooler if they were still explosive only

no way, they'd be insanely hard that way. the explosive kill thing was one of the first things to go once i upped the speed.

agree with the rest though. hexen2 models look great, but don't fit 100% with quake. i like the golem though. ;) 
I Loved The Zombies 
I quite like the combat, and the 'terror' as you evade and destroy. Ever see 28 days later? Or play L4D? 
Necros 
I tackled loads of zombies just with the "oh so easy to jump to" secret RL, until I realised they could be killed by any weapon ;) 
Necros 
Played this a while ago, here are some thoughts.

The outdoor bit is really the highlight - great sense of place. Enjoyed running around there and just looking.

The indoor bit:

- Several of the corridor intersections looked mostly the same; that was a bit confusing.

- A lot of basically flat floors that could have used some more attention.

- Waterwheel had no function besides being there? I half expected it to have some meaning. If it did, I never found out.

Weapons and enemies:

- as has been pointed out, Hexen 2 enemies didn't blend in too well

- golem stomp attack was a bit annoying eventually, since it takes control away from the player too much - being thrown in the air constantly, similar criticism as towards the Doom 3 habit of messing with the player's view when hit by imps

- new weapons didn't really do much for me, Quake 2 looking shotgun seemed a little out of place

- got cornered by fast zombies once, in some staircase, left me zero chance to fight my way out of there, I kept thinking there should be a way to sort of knock them back or sth like that

- boss fight was creative and seemed beatable, although I didn't make it for some reason.

Didn't know this was a remake of a map from another game. Never played Oblivion. Anyway, good job with this level, it felt fresh. 
I Played This On Easy Skill 
and died. Repeatedly. Could be the hour. Anyway, I recorded the entire embarrassing experience. If you want to see those, I'll upload them.

Ran the map on "a version" of RMQ, followed the directions, and it ran fine.

-I got stuck on some corners between faces in the terrain area.
-It was hard to tell what was activated by my button presses.
-gb mentioned the golem stomp attack. It may be WoW raids influencing my behavior here, but I already knew to jump into the air when a large guy empties lots of force into the ground. It was very appropriate. Seems deceptively weak at first until combined with faster monsters.
-New monsters were awesome.
-Architecture was glorious.
-I enjoyed the improved pathing AI very much.
-Never seemed to notice the quad damage until after everyone was dead.
-I "accidentally" woke the boss character during the initial visit to the start map, not knowing he was a boss. Not sure if this was meant to be possible.
-Rotating doors / gears / other things were fascinating to behold, but seemed out of place.
-Confused about the little grenades attached to the ceiling.

Anyway, the best thing to say about a map is... this is a map I plan to play -again.- 
 
sorry about all the deaths! i'd like to see your demo if it's all right.

-I got stuck on some corners between faces in the terrain area.
that is just an unfortunate part about quake. it's partially the engine's fault and partially the way qbsp creates the player collision hull during compile.
one of the things that is actually completely BETTER about darkplaces is that player collision on the world is fixed. i'd like to see other engines try to tackle that problem too.

-It was hard to tell what was activated by my button presses.
this is surprising as all the buttons activate doors right next to them. the only exception is the button that opens the secret room with the GL which is a ways back and intentional. otoh, all the doors that are opened by buttons are disguised as 'secret' walls so that might be why.

-gb mentioned the golem stomp attack. It may be WoW raids influencing my behavior here, but I already knew to jump into the air when a large guy empties lots of force into the ground. It was very appropriate. Seems deceptively weak at first until combined with faster monsters.
about half of the demos i watched had people figuring out to jump, so i was pretty happy with that. i like the sort of extra 'skill' of timing a jump. like shambler dancing.

-Never seemed to notice the quad damage until after everyone was dead.
yeah... i know what you mean. :P i guess i should have spent a little more time on powerup placement. good for speed runners though when you know where they are and can plan ahead, but not great for a first run.

-I "accidentally" woke the boss character during the initial visit to the start map, not knowing he was a boss. Not sure if this was meant to be possible.
totally intentional! :) i wanted the open world feel and i didn't want to cram boss combat into a locked room. if you lead the boss away from the altar, he just resets back to full health.

-Confused about the little grenades attached to the ceiling.
the ayleid ruins in oblivion often have a lot of traps in them.
usually things like swinging ball+chain attached to the ceiling, gas chambers, floors that give way to spiked pits and such. i wanted to capture that a little but ran out of brushes to really integrate a lot of them.
ball+chain i think is doable but i'd need to work on that damn dynamic rope code which is pretty nuts and i wasn't in the mood for that. :P 
Demos Uploaded 
over here:
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/ne_ruins_demo_raptore1.rar

For posterity the exact version of RMQ I used can be found here(Thanks, gb!):
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/tools/windows/engines/rmqengine_20110126.zip

Re: Necros
Haven't read how to make quotes in func_ yet.

The button presses:
This may be one of those criticisms that was a singular experience and can be safely ignored. The demo should reveal more to you about my experience than I can think to say.

One thing I am curious to ask though, is this. On those doors of yours that have the three vertical stone segments that slowly fall to the floor, some of them have the activation button placed right on the door. I seem to remember that buttons can only go in one direction. So where is the button going?

You could give it the appearance of being a button, when it is actually a train that recedes into the door and then drops into the floor, or maybe have it recede all the way back to the far wall fast enough that it disappears before the door opens, but that's kind of a mess.

The quad damage:
The powerup is blue, and the map is blue... perhaps that is why it's being missed. 
 
about the buttons:
i added the ability to bind entities to other entities, so the buttons are bound to the door and when the door moves down, it takes the button with it. :)

about quad damage:
it's more than they are not ideally placed.
most of the time they are in areas before a large fight, but the fights usually take time to get going so the powerup runs out by the time you'd actually use it.
if you know what's coming, you can wait and then nab it after the event starts, but that's not a reasonable thing to expect on a first run.

custom doom maps tend to work powerups into the actual gameplay and that's something i think i should focus a bit on next time.

edit: watched your demo. you made me laugh a bit because every time you hit a button to open a door, you seem to turn at exactly the wrong angle to not see it. so it's not that it wasn't obvious, but you had just bad luck to look in the wrong direction. :P
thanks for uploading that! it's always fun watching demos. 
 
i added the ability to bind entities to other entities, so the buttons are bound to the door and when the door moves down, it takes the button with it. :)

Glorious. The power of QuakeC...

I'm going to experiment with employing things like fraps and youtube for sharing my playthroughs. There has got to be a better way. 
Binding Entities 
is a nice feature. 
 
I did get the idea that I had to jump, but since you can't control how long you're in the air, and since several golems might be stomping, you might still get juggled, in spite of jumping like a kangaroo. 
Speaking Of Which... 
The blob guys were coming from the jars, and it was the golems that could open the jars with their 'break-dancing.' The map was almost over before this occurred to me. 
Wow 
just played the final version (finally!) and was even more amazed than the earlier version. quaddicted review forthcoming at some point. necros, I think we can all agree you're the best at Q1SP. my only reservation is the underground map layout is a bit arbitrary, but if they were actually building a dungeon/excavating in a mountain it would be that way... more an issue related to my obsession with "logical indoor/outdoor layouts." The atmosphere was amazing... a strong sense of being THERE. new monsters and gameplay stuff was great. you used hexen2 stuff and showed what a potential it had. the golems were really cool, it's too bad hexen 2's gameplay sucked, but good to know you rescued hexen2 content from eternal lameness! 
 
> good to know you rescued hexen2 content from eternal lameness!


er, to each their own I guess. 
Hmm 
personally i didn't catch that all hilarious thoughts/opinions about ne_ruins , it's pretty boring in terms of gameplay/construction


i've wouldn't be never compare it with the kinn's levels for example.... 
You Think Ne_ruins Has 'boring Construction'? 
and you're criticizing it for not being up to the standards of Marcher?

kind of fucking harsh, I think. 
Thanks! 
looking forward to the review!

and yeah, i know exactly what you mean by arbitrary. but i found that's kind of just my 'style' you know? i stopped fighting it and just let it go now. :) 
Kind Of Fucking Harsh, I Think. 
there's no fucking harsh, just a random thought,

there's much better work from necros for example his last or woteva, with a dragging corpse , forgot the name of map

about "boring construction" _ everything is looking the fucking same , believe me , ive been playing oblivion for ages

there's no fucking harsh, just a random thought 
Random Thought 
Necros maps make me cum!

LOL

I agree with tronyn,Necros is a living legend! 
 
I want to coop this but the client keeps crashing.

Server is:
./quakespasm -dedicated -game ne_ruins -deathmatch 0 +coop 1 +teamplay 1 -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000 +max_edicts 8192 +sv_protocol 666

Client is:
./quakespasm +connect server.address -game ne_ruins +max_edicts 8192 -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000

Both Archlinux, QuakeSpasm 0.85.4. The client segfaults once the server is running the ne_ruins.bsp map.


FITZQUAKE 0.85 SERVER (30781 CRC)


Ruins
Using protocol 666
Warning: 564 models exceeds standard limit of 256.
Warning: 327 sounds exceeds standard limit of 256.
Warning: 56662 faces exceeds standard limit of 32767.
Warning: 64740 marksurfaces exceeds standard limit of 32767.
Warning: 58594 clipnodes exceeds standard limit of 32767.
--> client to server keepalive
Segmentation fault


Am I missing something obvious? 
 
i don't know if the progs works with coop, tbh...

there are some graphical stuff that will definitely malfunction in multiplayer, but there are changes to some fundamental things (or ways i chose to do things) that may explode if there are more than 1 client in the map. :S 
 
actually on further thought, i'm not sure how accurate my previous post was. i was thinking about a different progs where i had ripped out most of the multiplayer code, but the ruins code wasn't the same one.

there is still going to be some problems though, as i do distinctly recall making coding choices based on SP only. i tried to account for multiplayer, but i never tested any of it.

if an engine person can weigh in, that'd help. 
Great Mod 
BUT how does the swinging fence door work? I want that! 
 
they're not too complicated. you give func_movewalls a touch function that takes in the player's velocity. then you send that info over to the rotater and drop it into a think function. then just decay that angular momentum over time to simulate friction.
if you want to get cute, you can give func_movewalls health and make them shootable, then give them a th_pain to also dump velocity into the rotater to let you shoot doors open.
it only gets complicated for non-y-axis doors that need to be affected by gravity, because gravity will not just rotate it in a linear fashion, but will depend on how perpendicular to the gravity vector it is. you can use a dot product for that, but i haven't really gotten them to look realistic yet. i want to make a draw bridge the player can push to cover a gap but getting the bounce to look right is a pain, because a real physical object would absorb some of that bouncing into the object itself (vibration). 
Kind Of Fucking Harsh 
Sorry cant help it, since Iv only recently played Marcher, after reading all the praise but
ne_ruins , it's pretty boring in terms of gameplay/construction
i've wouldn't be never compare it with the kinn's levels for example..
is a ridiculous statement.
Marcher is constructed in a beaten to death plain Quake3-gothic style, which looks very boring if you played Q3 for some time. The texture set and style been overused both in stock and custom maps, and been done better. Visual details got sacrificed to the size of the map, which I understand from the technical point, but unfortunately it results in a bland look. Even the insides of the castle - flat walls gothic_block all over the place, nothing pretty.

Now back to the ne_ruin: the mapper also borrowed the visual style from another well known game but went all the way to recreate it in the best way possible using uncommon advanced techniques to achieve great level of details without having to split the map into smaller parts. The texture and geometry detailing rivals or even surpasses the original despite the old engine. Excellent usage of map models for both visuals and gameplay. It's the most detail-rich quake map I've seen (I'd be thankful if you show me something that is on the same level). Atmosphere and sense of place is quite strong as well.
The only criticism one could give it is for the very uniform look of the indoor areas due to the strong teal lighting/fog.
Gameplay wise regular monster placement and setups might be nothing special, but it's compensated by the novelty and quality of the enemies (in gameplay sense).
But more remarkable is that this mod has excellent boss battles by not just custom map standards but pro-made games standards. Good use of patterns and escalating action stages. Best boss-battle quake mod ever? Make it two best bosses even.
Criticism? Healing pools make the finale too easy -_o
So yeah, don't compare it to Marcher, its in a class of its own. 
Hm 
I always preferred Bastion of the Underworld to Marcher.

And this map stands in a class of its own. The above explanation of the swing gate style door had me nearly post earlier, but my post, after lots of thought was something along the lines of "Wagghhh! :)"

Necros, I think you'll like what Gb has manged with rotating objects - RMQ demo sometime soon. 
 
yeah, i'm looking forward to see it. the last demo, while not my style, had some really impressive qc and use of said qc. 
RE: Segmentation Fault 
I couldn't reproduce a crash yet. However if you still do, we need to see where actually it crashes, i.e. some backtrace from gdb would be a good start. 
Lightmill 
are you trolling me? ok. you say
1)Marcher is constructed in a beaten to death plain Quake3-gothic style, which looks very boring if you played Q3 for some time
could you point me at least couple of maps in that Q3 gothic style with such epicness of marcher

2) The texture set and style been overused both in stock and custom maps, and been done better

where? in quake1 that style and texture set is heavily underused and underrated (or have i missed something?) i assume we're talking about Q1 mapping, right? personally i haven't seen that some map has been build with more quality than Marcher in such theme

3) Visual details got sacrificed to the size of the map, which I understand from the technical point, but unfortunately it results in a bland look i cant see any flat /bland details in M. maybe it's just me ;)

flat walls gothic_block all over the place, nothing pretty. are your sure you talking about M.?
________
ps my fault i've been trying to compare ne_ruins with marcher i shouldn't have done it

each map has its own unique feeling (maybe i just overplayed oblivion) ;) 
Gdb 
tell me how to do that, I did try earlier but it was not intuitive and I was too lazy to search. 
RE Gdb 
For a start, you need a quakespasm binary with debug symbols not stripped. See http://quakespasm.sourceforge.net/devel/ and take spirit_dbg.tar.gz which I built from the current svn for x86 linux; it also contains the Makefile.test that I used for building it so you can build your own and/or play with the compiler options in it.

As for running it under gdb, this is what I usually do:

# gdb ./quakespasm
[you are now in gdb's shell]

# set args -game ne_ruins -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000 -nomouse +connect server.address
[-nomouse may be necessary because if it crashes it would still has the mouse captured and you wouldn't navigate easily between windows.]

# r
[this runs it]

when/if it crashes, you will see some stuff in gdb's shell and the place of crash. Do:

# bt

... which will give you a backtrace

# c
[continue, until it bails out]

# q
[quits gdb] 
Szo 
That build does not crash. Seems like the bug was fixed in the mean time. Thanks! 
Spirit 
Please do a test for me: Do a normal build from quakespasm-r524.tar.gz (i.e. without using my Makefile.test or anything fancy) and try again: If it doesn't crash either, than we are good, and I will then assume that your crash was _possibly_ due to this bug which is indeed fixed in the svn for 0.85.5:
http://quakespasm.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/quakespasm?view=revision&revision=440 
Success 
Builds and runs fine 
RE: Success 
Thanks for testing! quakespasm-0.85.5 (pending, in a week or two) will have the fix integrated. 
Linux 
my head hurts 
 
cp /linux/painkillers ~daz

there you go. :P 
Swinging Door 
Iv read that 10 times, trying to understand, but Im no good at qc at all so... would you release the code? 
 
i don't want to be a dick here... but if you didn't get my post, you'll probably have a hard time with the qc... but take a look and see i guess: http://necros.slipgateconstruct.com/temp/ne_rotation_pushableRotaters(17.12.11).qc 
I Was Just Thinking 
A remake of E3M2 in this map's style would be ace... 
 
in theory, with the map source, anyone can make new maps with the same style since i left the brush groups intact. just copy/paste some stuff around and build a little bit to fill in whatever gaps. 
Hm 
The original maps are extremely crampt, and badly built by modern mapping standards.

Blasphemy maybe, but true.

Having said that, the compact mapping style in id1 isn't really used much anymore.

Makes me wonder if there was a technical reason for the caution. Possibly inaccuracies in the movement far from the world 0 0.

Unlikely though. 
 
I believe the reason was rendering performance back in the day? They couldn't just make open spaces like Doom 2.

They might be built badly by modern build standards, but the actual flow makes them very lean compared to Doom which I approve of :E 
I Spose Yeah 
It's not so much the scale of things that caused problems, it was having more than 100 enemies in a level to fill all that space with.

Remember when the courtyard fight in czg07c was groundbreaking - 5 HKnights vs 5 fiends. Then later on came stuff like Masque and Marcher, with tons of enemies and tons of detail.

RMQ winter demo is nearly ready by the way, which will include BSP2 tools. For those who found Masque and the like a bit too small... 
Q1bsp Is Just Bad 
It splits large surfaces into chunks to fit lightmaps, it would be a waste to make large scale maps in 96, besides id wanted sp maps to be playable in DM, so the designers made nice looping layouts. I still marvel at those.
I have to admit I got lost in Romero's e2 maps when I first played Quake, they were too confusing with all the nonlinearity and a fair bit of swimming. 
Amazing Work 
This is such a cool map pack on so many different levels. The lower level (tomb) is not over populated (initially) and the suspense of turning a new corner is brilliant. This is how the game should be at time, the pause between encounters is fantastic for building tension. Plus it gave me a chance to look around and be familiar with my surroundings.

Played the map on easy and died a couple of times! Yeah I know I am not some Q1 god but most of my deaths actually felt cheap. A couple were to mobs spawning behind me (the running zombie things) which felt cheap like in D3 spawning cupboards. One other death was to the blob creatures, it shattered from a vase behind me and I pretty much died instantly. Besides that the game play was flawless. I even died on the corner lava trap! :P I got caught on the stupid vases and could not get out in time, my own fault.

The textures and architecture was a thing of beauty, the place felt structural sound and the texture detail matched the shape of things perfectly in places. I loved the whole deserted feel to the place, the dark ceiling space pushing down and the various misc models (used extremely well).

The new monsters certainly had me running circles, especially the spawner one's. I must of killed a whole army of ogre's at one point. I could not reach the spawner creature at the back and it seemed like forever trying to kill the ogre barrier.

The final boss was extremely clever, well scripted with good defined waves. Certainly felt like a boss but I got a bit bored with the second phase (through the teleporter).

A very original release, certainly hits all the right notes with layout, pacing and finally a map with proper skill levels! Amazing piece of work necros, something to keep in my collection for a very long time :) 
 
thanks :)

i admit the zombies spawning behind the player was a little bit me just showing off the pathfinding (they spawn quite far back and have to path through a fair amount of map before they get to you), but in retrospect, i should have realised the player would never appreciate that nor care. :P
otoh, they only hit for like 3 damage and have 5 health... so i kind of don't really feel bad for you on this count. :D

sorry about the tarbaby thing though. that sounds like just dumb (bad) luck. i toyed with lowering the explosion damage, but i preferred just slowing them down (neg calls them tamebabies, hehe).
it's the golem stomps that cause them to break though, but it takes more than one stomp so the idea is you either try to lead them away from the vases or be prepared for them, but it's not really an obvious thing.

re: respawning armies, i think i should put internal cooldowns on individual monsters so a single monster can't be resurrected in quick succession. there were a few times when testing where it looked like it might be an issue, but it wasn't a major one so i just let it be at the time. thinking back, the archvile in doom moves a lot more spastically and so doesn't exhibit the same kinds of problems because it tends to not be in position to resurrect the same monster again. that or i should have used weaker monsters instead of ogres there.

about the boss, i agree, the second phase seemed to be a common complaint and my only excuse is i ran dry on ideas at the time. oops!

glad you enjoyed it! 
A Rare Gem 
I do think it is worth stressing that an essential part of Q1 was traps and the lava trap you have in this map was awesome! Yes it killed me (my own stupid fault) but it made me smile because it was something I could have avoided. I have not seen a good trap in a custom map for such a long time I forgot they even existed and to be wary of them!

Also damn you necros and you grease lightning zombies who chewed my ankles off and killed me! :P

Yeah the re-spawning monster was a little hard because I don't think the spawn rate was linked to a skill level. It just keep spawning new mobs faster than I could kill them. (especially the ogres) At first I did not even know the re-spawning monster was there, I just kept seeing ogres coming down a corridor at me.

I never liked the tarbaby even in Q1, any mob that can one shot kill is cheap in my books. What confused me was the vases could only be broken by the stomp attack and not by me, so I assumed they were just window dressing and ignored them. They should of initially been presented in a better way to the player. Saying that, I did like the surprise, just it killed me! 
 
well, vases have 100hp , but the axe does 3x damage to it (it takes 2 axe hits to kill a vase, but like 4 or 5 shotgun shots).
it follows the HL model except for different reasons-- to avoid breaking them open from stray shots in combat.
my one real regret was not finding a better way of communicating that the tarbabies in the large vases didn't count towards kills.
i think a few people went out of their way to kill them all which probably made it harder for them seeing as how the map wasn't balanced around that much ammo usage.

the 'tamebabies' are much slower now though. what happened must have been just bad luck because they are no where near as lethal anymore. neg actually said once they were too easy now. :P

i think flattening out their explosion damage would help a lot-- keeping the explosion radius the same, but lowering damage all around creating a more 'shallow' damage curve.
or even just replacing it with the quoth poly 'hurting gibs' damage model. dunno, needs some thought.

heh, anyway, i could go on all night talking gameplay. :) 
Visual Clues 
When I first saw the vases I thought 'wow that looks awesome I wonder if I destroy them!' I shot one bullet at the vase and it gave off white dots which to me means 'this is like a wall and will not take any damage', I was disappointed. If the vase had used a common visual clue of red dots - meaning 'take damage' or something different to the usual white I would have taken it a stage further. The visual clues are important and if they give the wrong message, players will have different expectations.

I am personally against any monster in any game that can one shot kill a player with explosion/combo/critical hit damage. The exception to that rule for me is bosses, because well they are bosses! They should be able to hit harder and being more dangerous.

I have always hated the tarbaby because it can one shot kill most times and even bounces around the screen like crazy. If there was ever a list of retro game mechanics, that would feature on it! After I knew about the tarbaby it was fine because I could plan for it and death by it would be my fault. 
 
I really enjoyed them... perhaps they do need some tweaking in some way, would have to go replay it to make any suggestions, but I enjoyed the 'moving explosive barrel' effect. I usually tried getting them all out in the open when big fights started and tagging as much as I could :) 
 
If the vase had used a common visual clue of red dots

this. usually the argument is realism. :P
i was really on the fence about it when i implemented the grey particles. there was some big discussion about this here or on i3d at the time.
otoh, blood sort of indicates you SHOULD damage it. the vases are somewhat optional, providing only 25 armor after many coins. like a non-secret secret.
and the large vases most definitely are not meant to be shot. :P
i guess the real problem with vases is that there is nothing like it in stock quake.
when you see something moving, you shoot it. if you see something on the ground, you pick it up.
there were no decorative yet destroyables beyond barrels which only showed up in tech maps and had an animating texture.

this is serious business. ^_^; 
Visual Language 
If the visual language is missing from Q1 about breakable objects then something else could be done instead. Maybe use a 'cracking' sound clue?

I suppose the ideal solution would be a damaged skin. I've got no idea if Q1 can support them or if QC can switch to a damaged skin based on health, maybe it could be possible?

I can see hiding a monster in the vase is cool, like a jack in the box type surprise but when the surprise is lethal at close range it feels unfair. Something like that should offer clues, otherwise it is just random. Like someone finding out if they shoot a certain wall texture an ogre falls from the ceiling on their head. Could be funny! :P 
 
Vases were blueish no ? Then particles of same color as the vase, simulates bits of vase chipping off there you have slight realism + indication of something different happening as its not usual white/grey particles. 
In Quake Extras 
Destructable objects that aren't monsters emit yellow (vaguely like sparks) particles. 
Particle Colors 
I went back and forth with this on rubicon2 ... for a long time Floyd had yellow blood (to resemble sparks.) But then I thought, why do shootable buttons bleed then? Should I make them emit sparks too? And then I realized, if I'm changing how shootable buttons work to make Floyd make sense, that must mean there is already a convention in place (all damageable things bleed, even non-organing things) so I changed floyds back to red blood. 
 
I actually hate bleeding funcs. You get more than enough visual feedback when they move or change textures.
And yes you could make breakable models change skin on damage too.
Even worse if you play with proper blood particles instead of dots.

Breakables don't bleed anywhere.

On a sidenote RMQ's lazer prodicing ogange particles hitting brushwork was... sigh. 
 
I don't think different colours is a problem providing it's introduced to the player. I like replacing shootable buttons with things to blow up, but you need the player to know it's they're doing something right and I agree it is weird when random objects bleed :p

Best solution would be a multiple colours thing where you set up patterns. You just have to make sure a negative is always gray so a different colour should become a sign of 'ah, I shoot this'. 
 
I can't remember if Quoth Breakables can trigger things when they die, but I put triggers over them to shoot anyway because I want the hit indication. 
 
I'm with metl on this one - the blood is an obvious cue to the player that they've just hit something and now they can expect a result. It's one of the conventions of the original game.

Of course, if you're happy to stray from the conventions of the original game then you can do whatever you want; otherwise - use blood. 
However... 
I like ZQF's suggestion that grey = fail and bright color = success, which allows different bright colors for different object types.

But I would also like shootable buttons to play a "success" sound that's more obvious than the subtle hydraulic hiss or soft click that they normally play (which is often lost due to the louder weapon sound anyway.) Usually the button triggers a nearby door or machine, and that object is moving and making noise, but it's not always on screen and not always audible.

I also felt it was a (minor) design flaw that rockets don't give damage feedback, so for example I spent way too long firing rockets at Chthon the first time, assuming that it was working. When I ran out and switched to nails, suddenly --- "Aha." (And now that I think of it, Shub gives misleading feedback too. Though you can kill her and crash the game with direct damage, it's not part of the design.) 
 
Yeah, another option since weapon fx can make such indications difficult (seeing a bunch of sparks/blood through a rocket explosion) is a couple of lines around the crosshair or something that blink when damage is caused (like Battlefield), or sounds, but again sounds can be missed in the same way as game fx. 
Just Played 
holy shit!

Before I write my thoughts about the gameplay, I have a quick question though - Did you do all the terrain by hand in radiant? Or do you have some way of exporting it from a modelling app...?

I remember when i did marcher's terrain entirely in the map editor and afterwards I said "never again". Your terrain is an order of magnitude more ambitious so i'm curious as to your method ^_^ 
Kinn 
pretty sure it was hand made. 
 
yeah it was hand made. by far the longest part of making that map. :P
i remember when i was about 1/3 of the way in, thinking "fuck, why did i want to do this again?"
if you're bored, type:
notarget
sv_friction 0
developer 5

to activate ski mode, then use impulse 103, 104 and 105 to teleport to the different peaks and ski down.
ski mode is the only reason i stayed sane. 
God Damn 
Never a more patient man has graced Quake's hallowed halls as you, necros.

That ski mode is hilarious - I think my current record is around 1500 units/s off of slope 2, and I'm sure I was airborne for at least half the journey :} 
 
turning up sv_maxvelocity helps too, because it'll cap you at 2000.
it'd be pretty awesome to use the bsp2 format and make a super huge slope map for something like that slide mod, which i still think is awesome.

how did you do your terrain?

for me it helped a lot to sort of build the whole thing at once.
when you do something that takes so long, you've got to be able to really see it coming together or you're gonna loose interest.
i built all the highest peaks first and then expanded them all outwards simultaneously so that i could see the shape of the terrain very early. 
 
There is that old terragen thingie that makes brush trisoup from a 2d hightmap. Then you load it in a map editor that lets you drag verts on multiply brushes at once and change w/e you need manually. Not that hard to do.
But then qbsp shits on you with collision problems and you spend 10x time fixing than you spent making it. 
Triangles 
how did you do your terrain?
I did it all in quad prisms first (and occasionally higher sided prisms) to get a nice polyflow, and a rough height pass (imagine all the prisms differing in height by jagged steps) then when that was all done I chopped them all into tris and lowered/raised the verts as appropriate to get smooth height variation. Final tweaks like "turning edges" were a pain in the arse as you can imagine :}

There is that old terragen thingie that makes brush trisoup from a 2d hightmap problem with that is that the heightmap is based on a regular grid, which is really ugly - i need my nice polyflow :}

To be honest, I might have a go at banging out some melscript that takes a bunch of triangles from maya and projects them up (or down) to turn them into tri prisms, and then spits out a quake .map file. Shouldn't be too hard to do... (another thing to add to my ever growing list of shit :) 
 
To be honest, I might have a go at banging out some melscript that takes a bunch of triangles from maya and projects them up (or down) to turn them into tri prisms, and then spits out a quake .map file. Shouldn't be too hard to do... (another thing to add to my ever growing list of shit :)

dude... if you did this... my god, it would be amazing.

i really wish there was a way to extrude a triangle to create a brush this way.

but... if you do decide to, would it be possible to have it work for more than just maya? maybe support ASE for full compatibility? 
Well 
I'm sure it would be a similar amount of work to write a maxscript version, although I don't have max, and have never done any scripting in it before. 
One Of My Beefs 
with quake and terrain though rears its head when it comes to the issue of placing architecture in the terrain. I've been taught that letting brushes arbitrarily intersect each other is bad for quake, which lead me to carefully tessellate my tri-soup terrain around any architectural elements to avoid intersection, which feels precise yet at the same time messy and annoying to do (it feels inefficient as it means you use more triangle brushes). I did it like this in marcher (when a 12-sided stone column butts into the terrain, the terrain triangles all perfectly meet up to each side of the column.

Now though, I'm thinking this is annoying to do and might put me off making areas where architecture melds with terrain. I think also, my OCD had a large part in me doing it like that.

Considering how quake chops up faces into ugly shit anyway, even in a pure tri-soup with no intersection - would it really matter if I just let random architecture intersect the terrain? How did you approach it necros? 
 
Something that reads an OBJ file of triangles and spits out a MAP file of extruded brushes should be dead simple. Just saying. :) 
 
"I've been taught that letting brushes arbitrarily intersect each other is bad for quake"

This has never been explained in a way that would convince me it as true. QBSP chops up the world and removes any inter-penetrating geometry. That's what it does. So how do intersecting brushes cause problems? 
 
Generated terrain is only ugly if you use large grid. And even then its really easy to adjust it the editor to your liking, making it as irregular as you want. Big timesaver.

Willem: precision problems that cause collision errors. Never experienced falling through irregular angled geometry?

There are several model-to-map progs and scripts, but none that I'v tried output geometry that is friendly to shitty quake compilers. Again precision loss, gaps, edges don't match, collision errors.

Q3map2 solves all the problems. But I know that quake mappers are too afraid of technology advancements. 
 
I've experienced that but I've never found that manually aligning brushes is a magic fix. As often as not, making them intersect MORE will fix it.

And why the hostility towards Quake mappers? 
Stuff 
Willem, i guess that it may produce more faces than is necessary and odd things like tiny sliver triangles, I have no idea really. I did a really quick test to see what happens in two cases: a square pillar meeting some tri-soup. On the right, i just intersect it into the triangles, but on the left, I chop the tris up and carefully stitch around the pillar, making sure the overall topology matches the first case as close as possible.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/61424391/Quake%20Stuff/trisbutt.jpg

Results shown in r_drawflat. I guess there's not much in it. The one on the left looks "nicer" and has slightly less faces when all the chopping's been done, but I think the only question that needs answering is "will intersecting like this actually cause any problems when done on a large scale?"

Who knows - certainly letting them intersect is a million times more friendly and flexible for the mapper.

Q3map2 solves all the problems. But I know that quake mappers are too afraid of technology advancements.

Cool - let me know when I can use that to compile a working quake .bsp 
Addendum 
well that small test above is too limited to really prove much so i did something larger scale with bigger terrain and more stuff sticking into it. I conclude that Quake chops up the faces of trisoup terrain into such nasty shit anyway even at the best of times, that it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference whether or not you butt other random things into it. 
 
it's more to do with hull expansion, but aguirre's bsp has a much better expansion algorithm or whatever which handles all kinds of brushwork that would have normally killed the compiler.
in some cases, it might even be pointless to trisoup around intersecting brushwork.

the ruins start map has both fitted and unfitted intersecting brushwork. i built the fitted stuff first but what i started loosing interested, i just started plopping things down into the terrain and when i noticed nothing overly bad happening, i just let it be. (the map sources are available if you want to look) 
Ne_ruins/windows Quakespasm Issue 
guys!

it runs fine in my mac quakespasm engine, but a friend is having trouble running it in his windows qs.

whenever he types -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000 -game ne_ruins, it doesn't run. the game runs with the command -game ne_ruins, but his console in quake tells him 'unknown command' when he attempts typing the heapsize/zone commands.
i know that the - + switches do not function in the quake console, as they only work in the mac qs command line box.
is there a way to enter the command line via windows qs, without having to do it through the quake console?

and lastly: breathtaking stuff necros! 
 
He can create a text file in the Quake directory and put the whole line inside, eg:

quakespasm.exe -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000 -game ne_ruins

Then name the file for example quakespasm-ne_ruins.bat and now doubleclicking should launch the game properly. It needs to be a .bat, not a .txt, so make sure he has disable the hiding of "known extension". 
 
taking that one step further:

make a text file called "qs.bat"

in it, type:
quakespasm.exe -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000 %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9

now, in a command prompt, you can run qs -game ne_ruins (or any mod you like) and it will always use the extra ram and zone settings. 
Two Steps Further 
Or in Linux you just use an alias like
alias qs="cd ~/quake && ./quakespasm -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000"
for example in your ~/.bashrc, then you source ~/.bashrc once and then you can use it the same way (from any location, or if you are in ~/quake already you could use tab completion for the game). 
A Flurry Of News, To Be Sure! 
cheers guys,

i'll ring him 2moro and tell him to try those out. 
Fixed! 
yep, that sorted his problem out, so excellent stuff all round.

thanks again, guys. 
Thoughts 
Been meaning to post my thoughts on the map anyway, so here goes. I have to say I am seriously impressed with the quality of the QC work on display here - the attention to detail is awesome - the "physics" door in the start map would have made my monocle fly off had I happened to have been a Victorian gentlemen.

On one playthrough when I was just checking stuff out casually, I ran past the enemies at the start to reach the building - and whilst I was bumbling around in there, a bunch of dogs (who were miles off when I left them) had seemingly pathed perfectly to track me down inside the building. I wtf'd for a bit, until I vaguely remembered a func post where you were talking about implementing A-Star in QC and it was at that point when my second monocle became airborne.

In general I liked all the new QC and the new monster stuff - I found them mostly tough but fair - and the fast zombies nearly made me shart my pantaloons on a couple of occasions. The spawns-in-a-vase were annoying until I realised what was going on, then they became cool. I must admit that this map (along with Tronyn's stuff) has reminded me again just how much I friggin' love the Hexen II monster models.

I loved the architecture in general although I think a bit more variety would have helped with my orientation, but that's a minor quibble. For me it was all about the gameplay setpieces and there were heaps of them and all were stellar.

A special mention must go to the final boss fight which was seriously the most impressive finale I've ever seen in a quake map. The way the lava spawns froze was fantastically cool and is another example of the amazing attention to detail I mentioned earlier.

Really, really awesome job :) 
 
thanks!

yeah, the hexen2 models are really quite good. some of the animations i find are a bit iffy, but the meshes themselves are solid.
it's too bad that the hexen2 and quake styles are not a little closer together to allow them to be used more often in quake. 
H2 
it's too bad that the hexen2 and quake styles are not a little closer together to allow them to be used more often in quake.

some good skin-fu can fix that :} - I'm working on a super quakey reskin of the archer for my new stuff.

With H2 models i'm always tempted to use their full 20hz anim framerate but imo it doesn't fit with quake's 10hz crustiness, so i always skip every other frame in the QC - I keep all the frames in the model unchanged though because I always felt that if i chopped them out and resaved the .mdl then i'd probably get "noise" (can't think of a better word right now) introduced into the vertex coords as the model might have new bounds or something, so the verts might get shifted around or some bollox. I haven't tested it. 
 
i removed a LOT of frames from eidolon. in ruins i left the animation rate of the h2 monsters at 20fps because i didn't really notice much problems with it at that rate. in retrospect, it does change other things like ai updates and such, plus you need to halve the yaw_speed because at 20fps, the monsters think twice as much and so turn twice as fast, so i should have just gone and reworked the animations for 10fps. oh well. :P 
It's A Matter Of Personal Taste Really 
I'm a pernickity old fuddy-duddy of only the mustiest leather-elbow-patched tweed, who these days will only play Quake in software-rendered WinQuake (or Aguire's WinQuake for those maps where a little more muscle is required). In fact, I played ne_ruins in software mode so I'm afraid I missed out on some of the intended graphical flourish...but my point with all this is that if you use an engine that interpolates frames then I suppose a 20hz animation gels a lot better with the overall visual style, and the difference between 10 and 20hz is not very noticeable.

In non-lerped software quake, a 20hz monster stands out like an elegant ballerina amongst a rabble of peg-legged drunks, which is why I tend to "cripple" them a little bit to make them fit in better. There have been a couple of exceptions in extreme circumstances - in my maps the Gauroch's charge attack uses the full 20hz anim because he moves so fast it would look crap otherwise. 
If Multiplayer Saves Games Are Supported ... 
Is this almost fully coopable?

During a coop attempt of this, I found myself dead by the ice golem and couldn't progress back to that area due to a rock in the way that was blocked by noclip all the way up (preventing even rocket jumping over it.)

I've noticed that among map authors, your maps are almost always very consistently entirely coopable in every way. 
 
likely some graphics breakdown would occur for some players if you trigger the final lava flood before they have all entered the final stairwell.

Also monsters just pop in so if a player is triggering them, another one will suddenly have monsters in their face for no reason.

so yeah, not super good for coop. 
Ack! 
Just realised I still haven't played this. Shall add it to my list. 
I'm Jealous. 
 
Necros 
not that its in my might to ask, but where do all the flickering edges occur from, and why?

detail brushes?

i've just noticed that, playin with fitz, qs too.

suberb it is nontheless..:) 
 
this was made before the detail functionality was added to compilers so they are all func_walls.

func_walls don't generate 't-juncs' on corners the way normal brushwork does and the t-juncs are what stop the flickering.

it's probably more noticeable because there are func_walls in almost every room for a lot of the brushwork in an effort to reduce various thigns to stay under map limits. 
Necros 
that's it. was just curious, you know.
thanks! 
Ah 
That should be fixed in RMQe - though it's not everyone's favourite engine. 
I Played The Pack In RMQ 
and never noticed anything 
Catch-up 
My catch-up on big maps continues. I can see why you chose not to publish a screenshot of the outside, encountering that opening area with no expectations makes it much more breathtaking! The inside was solidly built as well, although I agree with some of the other posters that the initial corridors between the tombs were hard to distinguish - I knew where I wanted to go after I had the silver key but it took trial and error to get back.

The bosses were all awesome. My particular favourite moment was fighting the first ice giant, where I'd been running circles round him then he turned the tables by cutting me off with the ice spikes and making things close range. It worked exactly right. The final boss was also good at creating area denial through the flame attacks and the lurking threat of the fireball monsters.

The other monsters were pretty solid, I liked the necromancer one much better than resurrector monsters from other packs. In contrast to where it's an ability given to a boss in a lengthy combat, it was more of a priority threat - target down this creature straight away or you'll have your hands full. It worked well with the fast zombies, who were very easy to kill otherwise. The statues had lots of character in their slow, lumbering way, but they weren't much of a threat.

I didn't get the vases until nearly the end of the map, just before the lava boss. Then it was lots to take in at once and so I was opening all the spawn jars without understanding the difference. I had tried breaking one before, but after one tap of the axe did nothing I assumed they wouldn't break. Perhaps a place for the cool (but little used) proxy mine traps there - have a place where they drop right next to a vase and smash it when they go off. 
 
I had tried breaking one before, but after one tap of the axe did nothing I assumed they wouldn't break.

see folks, this is what happens when you make things realistic instead of just letting damageable entities bleed. :(

a lot of people had that problem and i think the distinction between non-spawn jars and spawn jars was not enough because a lot of people thought it was just random.
on the other hand, it's not that bad because it's only a small bonus for getting the coins anyway. it's more just to make it feel like you're collecting loot or something.

the necromancer monster is close to the archvile from doom. I consider that one of the best monster designs because of exactly the reasons you mentioned.
shifting priorities in combat is a great way of making things interesting.

in a new map i'm (very) slowly working on, i've changed the necromancer monster to use the same type of attack as the archvile (except it's electricity, not fire).
While the attack is more dangerous now because it is not affected by line of sight anymore (since it's not a projectile, but just appears on the target), it's actually better because if the player doesn't notice there is a resurrection monster around, when the effect appears on the screen, they are notified immediately of its presence while projectiles might be missed in the heat of combat. 
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