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The Essence Of Quake?
Discuss.
Quoting #tf 
rebb: did quake have a clear design goal ?
negke: yeah, pretty much
negke: i mean, no
SleepwalkR_: rebb: I think Quake is a case where the lack of a coherent design led to something extraordinary by chance.
negke: various styles mashed together
negke: that
rebb: i thought it was "lets make an RPG, oh wait maybe not, oh shit lets put this together with duct tape"
negke: heh
rebb: SleepwalkR : yeah, it's not a bad thing
SleepwalkR_: It works only because all parts fit together in an odd way. And the original engine is a big part of that because its visual style is perfect for the kind of environments Quake has.
Stuffbler: sleepwalkr i agree
SleepwalkR_: no, in this case it's not bad
Stuffbler: the core vibe of quake is not that hard to pick up on
SleepwalkR_: Yeah, that's probably what holds the entire thing together.
SleepwalkR_: It all feels alien and strange.
SleepwalkR_: Even the human bases are strange. Sound is also an important part of this atmosphere. The environment sounds in Quake are fantastic.

raptore: To me the quake shotgun added to the sensation that I was in a weird, unfriendly place, and my pitiful human technology was not going to protect me here.
SleepwalkR: raptore: That's an interesting observation. I never thought of that.
SleepwalkR: But yeah, it rings with the feeling of loneliness and alienation I described above.
SleepwalkR: Btw, loneliness is also something I will forever associate with Quake.
SleepwalkR: You're lost and lonely in this strange, evil place where you will die if you give in to your fears. 
Nice 
I really liked the second set of quotes. Just when every game was trying to add NPC's, special features, RPG elements, multiple gameplay styles, a big story, and a tie-in to some previously established intellectual property, Quake just PUT YOU THERE. And it was dark. 
Also 
no cut scenes, ever, seems like an important part of the original quake. not even any win screens. if id ever makes a new full Quake 1 sequel they better not try to make a story, with cut scenes that explain everything about the game (why there are the weapons/environments/monsters there are). The total lack of cutscenes - the fact that you could just wander around these dark brownish environments for hours with no help and a minimal interface, was important.

I suppose you guys have all seen the semirecent video "If Quake Was Made Today" on youtube. If not, look it up. 
Posterity 
No Win Screens? 
Really?

http://i41.tinypic.com/2449riu.jpg

(Oddly enough, this one also follows a cutscene). 
Zerstorer Had Cutscenes Too. 
And they were an integral part of the pack. One map was nothing but cutscene, in fact.

I'm not nitpicking, just pointing out that if one is going to take a stance on this, one must at least be consistent, otherwise one comes across as if one is just looking for excuses. 
Well 
Q1's win screens were in the engine, in the lamest way: no NPCs, it was basically just the level exit camera and some text. It was, above all, before Half-Life. Most importantly you never see the outside world. What's the difference between being in a weird blue cave, and seeing a shot of a weird blue cave with some text saying "you win this episode." They never gave the sense of an outside world or a larger context. Even the intro story in the manual was bullshit they obviously made up in a few minutes.
The Zer ending was good for what Zer was. Hell the Nehahra movie was a great interpretation of Quake, and it was nothing but a 4 hour cut scene. But these were interpretations.
But the original Quake did not have that story element, it was minimialist. No characters, no cut scenes, no explanation, and what they did provide was just some random pseudolovecraftian shit probably just before the deadline. 
 
(Oddly enough, this one also follows a cutscene).

that's not a cutscene. that's an ending cinematic.

there is no gameplay after shub blows up. a cutscene is a scene that breaks up gameplay. 
I Guess 
what I meant was the total lack of characters the player interacts with, except to kill them. I don't consider the shub end a real win screen or a cut scene. It doesn't involve anything that wasn't in the gameplay. You don't ever get "out" of Quakeworld. The game is claustrophobic and everything that reacts to you with any kind of intelligence, is trying to kill you. I think those factors are part of what make Quake unique. 
 
I dislike cutscenes in general, but I particularly hate in-gameplay cutscenes, because they are so jarring and 99% of the time pointless... They are particularly bad in FPS games because of the nature of you being the character, but they usually annoy me in third person games too :p

Half-life style I'm fine with, if thought has gone into how the game merges the scripted sequence with the player, but even Valve have started getting sloppy about that sort of thing in Episode 2...ie the multiple sequences where they just flat out remove your control and point the camera for you.

If you want more story elements you have to trap the player and break their control in some way, even if it's just trapping the player, but it should be done with some thought and grace, and cutscenes strike me as the laziest option. tbh if I was going to add major features to quake, improvement in scripting options would be what I'd look into :E


As for the atmosphere thing, well I guess that is the essence of all this cack. The isolation and (dark) otherworldliness. The idea of being a lost explorer, the first human to walk into a strange other-worldly labyrinth.

It's a tricky line, when you think of specific cases... say, Death Knights, fantasy element, fine. Those stupid Gremlin thingies from the first addon... yeah too dumb and kiddy. No menace to them. 
Gremlins 
the concept of the gremlin; stealing player weapons + spawning new gremlins from corpses isn't bad, but it's a combination of them not really being threatening most of the time and their animations being incredibly bad.

if you look at a monster with similar mechanics: the archvile, who can respawn monsters, it's a completely different feel. those guys are dangerous and when you hear their sight sound, it's never a good thing.

i think the gremlin was a missed opportunity. the gremlin spawning behaviour could have been played up more while also making the monster itself more dangerous (and perhaps eschewing the weapon stealing) to make their presence be more menacing. maybe with the threat of swamping you in gremlins for example. 
Quake 
A mashup of styles and origins; disparities that strangely work together and even in combination (possibly thanks to the limited palette). The game comes with at least four or more unique themes, and most of the monsters are universally usable. It also allows for all kinds of seemingly random custom content, new monsters from some remote dimensions, and it can be integrated into the game just fine.

I love the bulky, angular architecture - originally a technical necessity, it became a style of its own. No filigree stuff and realistic scales, just big 32/64 boxes with sharp corners.
Very atmospheric with its lighting or darkness and strongly contrasted shadows, strange places and hostile places to explore, badass soundtrack. Yet, fast and fun run-and-gun gameplay and uncomprimising deathmatch.

This, along with a good portion of nostalgia and fanboyism, creates a great mix that is, despite (or thanks to) the unfocusedness of it all, which would be held against games nowadays, still appealing to me even after 15 years. 
Strange Places, Hostile Places, Darkplaces, Bad Places 
 
 
I'd say the very reason Quake's disparate themes come together so easilly is thanks to the lack of cut scenes or character/world exposition. In my opinion whenever anybody has tried (be it by way of mods, fanfic or machinima) to explain Quake's mysteries they've compromised its afforementioned "essence" because as soon as you try to fill in the gaps you enter a world of logistical deadends and contradictions, which are a storyteller's cyanide.

Quake's essence is chaotic and nondistillable at the best of times, and that's why it's the only game to ever have got "the nightmare vision" right. It will never be recreated. 
Sounds 
and lighting.
and proper 3d where you can get lost surrounded by the pseudo blind vores and fiends and death traps.

music as well. but most of all, sounds, especially combination of the water, wind, and scratching sound of chainsaw on the stone. 
Gaps 
I agree with that. Quake leaves a lot to the players imagination - you have to fill in the gaps with your own ideas. This is probably the reason why there are so many different views on what Quake really is. One example is that for me, the enforcers didn't speak in English. I simply ignored that because I imagined that they were possessed by some dark magic, which completely disassociated them from their previous human existence. They don't know what they are, they only know that they have to kill you. That, and I didn't have any good speakers when I first played Quake, so I couldn't make out what they were supposed to say anyway. 
Sounds 
I agree that the environmental sounds in Quake are probably the most important factor in creating its atmosphere. In their combination, they make me feel lonely, lost and isolated, as described above.

Lighting is also very important and I think that adding colored light to Quake changes the original atmosphere significantly because the white-light-only model of software Quake with its hard shadows created bleakness. The complete lack of color adds to the otherworldliness of the surroundings... when even the sunlight is completely white, you know you are not on earth anymore. If you are going to use colored lights, you must do it very subtly, using only tinted lights, because full colors detract from the original atmosphere. 
Atmosphere 
just like cinematic mood, some games have it and some dont. Quake does. In spades. 
Incompatible/weird Hints 
ziggurat vertigo for me is one of the most genius q1 maps; it doesn't make any sense. the pyramid created this sense of "holy shit, this place is somehow connected to ancient civilizations" that Rogue's actual ancient egyptian maps never did.

post 13 wins. 
Quake Is Solid 
It's not just that it's all 3d but everything just feels very solid with a great sense of mass. All the models are very distinct and true low poly masterpieces.

All of id's engines and content have always had that solid feeling that has set them apart from much of the competition. 
I Tried Several Times To Come Up With Something On This Matter... 
...but I never managed to express it better than here:
http://www.quaddicted.com/webarchive/teamshambler.planetquake.gamespy.com/rant1.html>

Shambler nailed all there is to say, really.

I remember reading it some 14 years back and going "Yes! That's it."

And be sure to read points 1, 5 and 6.

IMO, Zerstorer is still unmatched when it comes to capturing Quake essence. 
Nice Work, Indy 
Digging up that old piece! 
Simple Interactions 
The essence of Quake is interaction with the environment with merely movement controls.

No gadgets, no use keys, no "spells", no meaningful inventory.

Also no explicit training. However, E1M1 does say "You can jump here" and has a little secret compartment and a lift to subtlety familiarize you with buttons and has a secret green armor to adjust you to the idea of level exploration. 
That Link Doent Work 
 
Sorry... 
It Seems 
quaddicted has flat out stopped working for me. i just get redirected to a virgin media search site. dns trouble perhaps? 
 
Eww, your ISP is a bad ISP. See if you can disable that kind of redirection. It is none of their business nor should they profit from your misfortune (they usually show ads on such pages).

Everything looks fine from here. You can use 91.121.208.153 for emergencies. ;)

If you are on Linux check what nameservers are set in /etc/resolv.conf and then check what they return for "www.quaddicted.com", eg: dig @8.8.8.8 www.quaddicted.com 
Works! Nice One! 
that virgin page gives the option to disable it. so they aren't completely shit :)

i remember reading that article ~12 years ago; still holds true today. and damn if it doesn't feel nostalgic (the article, not quake) 
 
The essence of Quake is that there was nothing like it in 1996. NOW, many of the elements that made it so great would be rubbished. Now the reason most of us play it is nostalgia and because most of us are designers. If there was absolutely no Quake community left, would any of us still play it? 
[Kona] 
You apparently play many FPS.
Give me some modern games like quake please. Fast solid shooter that doesn't try to be RPG or adventure game at the same time, with no fluff, no bullshit gimmick engineered gameplay and arbitrary design inconsistencies trying to make player a cog in a scripted mechanism of a game. With proper leveldesign, using 3d and having multiple paths. 
Kona 
I dig up qi custom levels time and again for a quick fix.

I will admit to not really playing the original game that much but thats simply because I've played those levels heaps compared to the custom ones. 
Yeah, Same Here... 
...but, I disagree with Kona... To me, it's just a matter of how things are done. "Classic" FPS were simply more muscular and with way better gameplay mechanics than current day ones.

It's a matter of taste , really, but I don't think nostalgia plays a huge factor here. I think that even the more frantic of nowadays shooters pale before the all out fast pace of things like Doom and Quake.
To me, games like HL2 or Bioshock are more like interactive movies with very limited replay value, the goal there is not playing per se, but more seeing the narration unfold....

I quite like games like Painkiller or Serious sam, that offer a similar style of runnign&gunning but if I was to choose only one game for life, that'd be the big Q.

Hands down. 
Quake. 
Dark, atmospheric, gothic/medieval/industrial environment, proper monsters, straightforward visceral combat, general air of brutality. 
Gospel. 
You should put up a map review site. 
Imho And All That 
Gameplay wise Quake is Doom only smoother (ie better collision detection).
The fundamentals are the same

Super human player -> Player is very fast and tough, can can avoid a lot of damage via movement and not tanking it then sucking their thumb behind cover.

Varied monster types -> Not quite as varied as Doom but still, Quake has a small but great monster set, with lots of different attacks, strengths and sizes.

Complex environments -> Not necessarily complex in terms of being labyrinthine, but featuring interesting, abstract geometry. This combined with the monster set creates an enormous degree of variety in potential gameplay. This is the main thing about mapping I love, creating interesting fights with a given toolkit.

Simplicity and predictability -> Monsters are dumb, and the behaviour of monsters is only slightly randomised (even less so in Nightmare). Experienced players are used to how these monsters act, and when they see one, know what it will be capable of. So when that monster is placed in a different position, or around different geometry, the actual monster is predictable but the fight is different.


Regarding stuff I've noted about this in the RMQ mapping guide. I've no doubt the team will disagree with me, but I'm interested what other people think about this point:

Remember Quake and Doom can still be hard as nails despite having very basic and dumb monsters. This is where I have an issue with ideas like removing Shambler Shuffle. Why remove something good players can do, instead, why don't you test there abilities more? Give good players two shamblers instead of one. Give them less cover. As you make monsters cleverer or given them more attacks, you reduce the potential environments and geometry you can have a fair and balanced fight against them. If Shambler shuffle doesn't work, then you now make it impossible to fight a shambler in an open area without taking damage.

I feel the same way about the idea of having monsters that can be flagged to have additional attacks, without any way of the player being aware of this. By all means expand the mapping toolkit by adding additional types of monsters with new attack patterns, but don't just given different monsters of the same type different attacks. It will most likely frustrate a player, as they are constantly wrong footed and not allowed to settle into a groove, which imo is fundamental for an action game. 
Where Doom And Quake Differ The Most 
I don't have the exact quote, but I recall reading Romero's hype talk for Quake from 1997, and it went like this (paraphrase):

instead of shooting lots of cannon fodder you'll be focusing on a handful of enemies which take longer to kill, it's like a virtual fighter almost

Some releases went completely 180 degrees on that, of course... 
Monsters 
Ijed has made a point - and I think he may be on to something - that monsters are actually not a punishment for the player.

Many people play Quake to kill the monsters. To do the Shambler Dance. That's not punishment, that's a clear case of monsters being a reward, of being a cookie that you're given for being a good boy.

The context was something that randomly spawns monsters - a player will keep on hitting that button to get their monsters and get their fight (and then get pissed at you when they use up all their ammo).

I don't see anything in OTP's post that contradicts any of this - it quite clearly supports it, in fact. 
 
It would be hard to argue that monsters are a punishment since they are pretty much the sole interaction that Quake has with the player. If they aren't there you have geometry and a few buttons to press. The monsters ARE the game. 
Not Sure Where My Post Is Going, I Better Stop And Submit 
what I like in quake changed (obviously) over time. while (iirc!) when I first played it these factors were important:

it being a violent banned game

the dark evil atmosphere

not knowing what the hell was going on but feeling tremendous joy when that pixel blob (lowest resolution and dark, the monster were VERY inrerpretative) stopped hurting me or when I finished a level

the graphics and 3dness compared to.other games my pc could run

while today I care about much different things:

the pattern based gameplay. I know how the monsters react, how many shots they take so I can approach most situations "smarter" then them

and most importantly being in full control of my alter ego. i control it perfectly (heh) without thinking about it. I know all the world's rules and feel at home. there is nothing outside my control and nothing that keeps me from doing stuff (inside the game rules). it is the same reason why I consider quake 3/live the pinnacle of competitive fps, because I played it so much that it is pretty much only me who can improve, it is not the game I have to learn but polish on my actual real life abilities.

this is probably also why I don't like quake mods that alter the things I have mastered. it takes some new getting used to and since I feel quake to be perfect (because I know it) most changes will be negatively received.

eg blurred vision if I take damage is a double punishment. I already lose health and now I am also partially disabled in my abilities. no thanks. 
Groove 
This: It will most likely frustrate a player, as they are constantly wrong footed and not allowed to settle into a groove, which imo is fundamental for an action game. and on the same note the pattern based gameplay. I know how the monsters react, how many shots they take so I can approach most situations "smarter" then them are very important aspects of why I like Quake so much. Sometimes everything just feels perfect and I play almost like in a trance.

For me, it is very satisfying to be able to win a fight without any damage. In Quake, I am able to do this because the monsters are mostly predictable. Sometimes I'll have to try a couple times and learn the environment better, but usually I'll be able to do this if I time everything right and there aren't too many enemies with hitscan weapons. Many other games don't allow me to do this because the enemies are randomized too much and thus have no learnable patterns. The game becomes unpredictable and frustrating.

The Shambler is actually a great example because while being very threatening and tough, you can fight him (or even several) without taking any damage if you got your timing down. And it's even more fun if you fight a combination of enemies because you'll have to combine their patterns in your head. If you have enough experience, you'll do this automatically without thinking, and that's where the fun is for me. 
What This Says To Me 
Is that the predictability of classic Quake puts people in their comfort zones. It's like going back to a favourite bar, or putting on a comfortable old pair of shoes.

Which is ironic cos when Quake was released it was nothing like that. It was a shock, it jolted people out of their comfort zones. Suddenly you had to look up, because the classic gameplay that people were used to didn't have monsters coming from above. This 3D environment thing? Never catch on. Bring back sprites! And all the brown! Doom wasn't like that! Having to actually jump into water and swim for a bit to get to where you need to go next... the list can go on.

What a difference almost 16 years can make. 
Yes, That's True 
But I believe that learning to master a game and then be predictably good at it has a lot of appeal to many people. Of course, I like to be surprised by smart monster placement and hard fights in custom levels. But if they are unpredictable (and remain that way), it's just frustrating because what was a game of skill and practice becomes a game of luck. 
 
mh ... I don't remember anyone (or many people, anyway) asking to go back to 2D or Doom when Quake came out. I remember a whole lot of oohing and aahing and people diving in, head first. Mods appeared, web sites sprung up, communities formed ... it was new, yes, but it was readily accepted. There was a lot of, "Oh, THIS is what Carmack was talking about - fuck yes!" 
 
There is a difference between wrong footing the player with random or unexpected behaviour and giving them the ability to mouse look or swim. The former is irritating for an arcadey action game (save for designed traps and such), the latter is an expansion of gameplay possibilities. 
 
GHD: there really isn't anything much like that. Maybe just Serious Sam and Painkiller, but the latest SS3 seems to have gone more consoley.

Developers won't make games as old skool and straight-forward as Quake anymore, because the critics rubbish it for being too basic, which equals poor sales.

I still play Quake #1 because there's still the occasional new release and #2 because it's a quick fix and nice little stroll now memory lane. If I didn't already have just about every SP release on my hdd, I wouldn't really play it. But I suppose Doom2 was just as fun as Quake, and I haven't played that in over 15 years. 
Actually 
Doom re: Quake is a good way of showing what's so good about quake. I love Doom don't get me wrong, but if you play so many Doom levels, you are really just getting the same thing. Doom 1, Doom 2, Doom 3 with both episodes of that, and Doom custom levels, and even Heretic, it's all very similar, whereas Quake seems a lot more flexible. Although, nostalgia really biases me toward doom (I was basically a kid, seeing Satanic stuff - for example the last maps of e1 and e2 - seemed amazing at the time), Quake is more flexible. 
[Kona] 
But Serious Sam and PK are extremely straight-forward and very basic arena shooters. Not even on the level of Doom2, when it comes to variety of gameplay and level design.
That's the problem, everything that calls itself old school is simplified to a primitive game with less depth than Crimson Land.
Is there no middle ground between that and 'Ramirez do barrelroll' cinematic experience games? 
CrimsonLand 
Is my 2nd favorite game, ever! 
According To Wikipedia 
Descent 1 came out over a year earlier than quake.

and it had most of the revolutionary features you associate with quake. Palette, solidness, monsters as rewards, lighting, minimal interface, 3D, no sense of exterior environments... 
Came Out = Was Released, Sorry 
 
 
i played descent before quake but i still prefer quake.
playing descent felt like being in the map by proxy (you are IN the ship in the map) whereas quake was you directly (YOU are in the map).
it's maybe not a huge distinction for some, but for me it was everything back then. 
Ort! 
My nephew dislikes Quake because it's too fast, too direct and too unreal (and he should know because he is studying game design). These. of course, are the reasons why I like Quake; those and the atmosphere created out of a couple of chewing gum wrappers and a piece of imaginary string. The fact that I wiped the floor with him and his ego last time we deathmatched in Quake has nothing to do with his opinion. 
(grin) 
...Never mess with da big boys, kid... 
Descent 
Not even close. The game has zero immersion compared to Quake.
And you probably forgot how it looks and feels, sure it was a technical step ahead compared to Doom, but its boxy closed-in maze environment design and the lack of gravity sends it back to the abstract 2d shooters of pre-PC era. 
Nice Trolling :D 
 
Just Read This 
When I first played Quake I was terrified. Completely keyed up, no idea what assemblage of pixels was waiting around the corner to gib me with meaty sound fx and voxel blood trails...

We want to take the game in a new direction with RMQ - not do a map pack, because that's finite. Clever monster placement has been done a hundred times, and yes, knowing everything is very comfortable and safe.

So we went with making the game feel fresh - trying to reacquire that bowel loosening fear of the first time you sat in front of the game.

Sterility isn't conducive to creativity.

I doubt you could convince a team to recreate 28 SP levels, sticking to 'the rules'. Although lots of people build scale models of the Eiffel tower out of matchsticks or massive 'computers' in Minecraft - so maybe I'm wrong.

----

Terms like harcore / console / casual / old school have so much baggage tied to them it makes the terms objectively pointless. What something means for one means something else for others.

The only sure yardstick is 'enjoyed playing? YES/NO'.

Would like to pursue this rambling, but its late. 
A Few Moments 
I agree, a few moments I remember from the original Quake:

-The fiend's appearance in e1m2, after the floating blocks. This created a real sense of wtf, holy shit.

-Shambler in e1m5 with the gold key. Frightening.

-Swimming, going into the underwater areas which had air in e1m4, also swimming onto the beach, looking above and seeing the bridge to the castle: thinking "I don't know how this world works - at all."

-First playing e1m8: the low gravity, the pyramid, the fast elevators, all the damn ogres, shamblers - thinking again "I don't understand this world, but there's something behind it."

e4m3, e2m8, e3m5, and e4m6? (azure agony) all created the same sense of weirdness/fear for me. My favourite episode will always be E2, with that medieval feel, but for sheer weirdness, the maps I listed are it. 
Ijed 
If that is your goal with RMQ may be you shouldn't buff half weapons to overpowered status?
Nothing makes you feel safer than a basic shotgun that makes quick work of fiends or a pewpew - another starter gun - that obliterates everything better than SNG. 
Let's Keep That Out Of This Thread 
 
The Essence Of Quake 
Dadada-dadada.....

(Those screamy voices on CD track 1) 
Ghd 
Nah 
you will end up banning me in no time 
... 
 
 
 
would you guys consider Quake cheesy or serious? I've been thinking and could not find much humour in it but I might be blind. it would be nowhere doom 3's stupid "red light and hahahohoho" crap. 
Serious 
 
Cheerious 
 
It's A Mash Up 
 
Serious In SP 
bit more cheesy in deathmatch. 
 
I am interested in sp only, dm is a completely different thing. examples of cheesyness (or likewise)? 
Dunno About Cheesiness 
But I always laugh when I lure a Fiend into jumping off a big cliff and watch it fall. 
 
Well Ogres basically being a rip off of Leatherface is pretty cheesy :E 
 
Not for those who played Quake before seeing the film. 
... 
I don't see Quake as 'serious' but I think 'pulpy' would be a more apt term than 'cheesy'. Case-in-point; the overexaggerated messages at the end of each episode. 
 
I see Quake as straddling a line between the "we just put all this shit in because we thought it would be awesome" approach of Doom and the more serious/military stylings of Quake II onwards. Sometimes it goes more in one direction than the other, so hence the sterile base maps, the wacky quit messages, the "we are all expendable", tarbaby jumping, etc etc etc.

Probably explains why everyone seems to take something different from it, why everyone disagrees about exactly what it is, and why any attempt to please everyone is doomed to failure. 
 
I have always feared going into this hallway:
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/e4m4.jpg 
As Did I 
 
 
Is it the misaligned textures that give you a sense of foreboding? 
No 
The near pitch darkness, hearing Scrags but not seeing them, the Fiends in the cells making me jump whenever they notice me.

E4 is my favorite. 
RADICALLY INCOHERENT 
 
The Post? 
Or the thread subject? 
Quake Itself 
Is radically incoherent, which is what makes it so re-interpretable and awesome. 
Essence 
"Probably explains why everyone seems to take something different from it, why everyone disagrees about exactly what it is, and why any attempt to please everyone is doomed to failure. "

Translates to:

"RMQ developers can do whatever the hell they like and dismiss any criticism that their mod isn't true to Quake as they deny there is any true essence of Quake"

:O 
Whatever 
Works for you.

For the record, that was not the intended reading, but if that's what someone takes from it then so be it. 
Fascism 
... is the idea that someone has some sort of natural right to govern someone else's creativity, ideas or interpretation and declare it to be the only one possible -- while not actually participating or having a stake in said work.

Usually this attitude isn't found among intelligent and creative people ... 
 
Dunno what point you're trying to make there.

After all Dictionary.com says:

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. 
Come On Now 
Thanks Shambler 
"RMQ developers can do whatever the hell they like and dismiss any criticism that their mod isn't true to Quake as they deny there is any true essence of Quake"

That's very gracious of you there, thanks for the support.

Or was it someone else - who were you quoting? 
No Probs. 
You should see how much I support Spirit's miserable whining about RMQ in #tf too.... 
 
The quote was mine, but I think Shambles is letting his hatred of RMQ override his capability to do basic research. ;) 
 
It's not whining, I just strategically use it in random conversations.


But why on earth is it mentioned in a thread like this? 
What Hatred?? 
Duh. I liked and supported the first release. I haven't tried the recent one.

P.S. It's mentioned in a thread like this because while the essence of Quake might be somewhat mishmashed, it is bloody obvious what is Quakey and what is not (and even what is non-Quakey but harmonious, and what is not). 
Whining Is The Essence Of Quake? 
 
Whining Is The Essence Of The Internet... 
 
The Internet Is The Essence Of The Whining! 
 
 
"RMQ developers can do whatever the hell they like"

True dat 
 
Why are people hating on RMQ? Is it not Quakey enough? 
Dunno. 
There's a big thread on it in news. This is maybe useful for reference tho. Quake is pretty cool and it definitely has an essence. 
By The Power Of Grayskull 
The Quake is a lie. 
 
LOL EPIC POST GB YOU SURE SHOWED THEM!!!! XDDDDD 
 
Keep at it otp. 
[Kona] 
No one hates RMQ really, its just some people are easily offended. 
 
Actually some people just like to troll. The reasons are often very obvious, too - personal beef. 
I Keep Thinking Of Primus 
As our official response. That song off the Brown Album about shaking hands... 
Experimentation Involves Hits And Misses 
I see nice big truckloads of ideas that get tested in Remake Quake.

Some of them don't work. A couple I don't personally like. These are small in the body of work.

The first demo was rather unrefined. The second one far more so. This latest one was rather on the mark, minus small complaints.

As a non-commercial work with finite time and resources, I think the sheer amount of goodness packed in each successive refinement is rather remarkable.

Plus, one of the cool things is a true expansion of the Quake engine and the map compile tools in a way that ensures that the modifications get road tested.

There might be 15 true expanded capabilities (IQM model support, verts limit expansion, rotation, etc.) in the tools alone. And maybe 30-45 in-game uses of previously theoretical QuakeC modifications. 
 
Hell I'm just happy to get remade Quake levels. You could fill it with all the standard weapons and monsters and effects and I'd be happy. 
 
I cant help but notice that *other* thread is horrible, essentially fuelling the animosity. Its sad to see both sides got dragged into it. 
But ... 
look how much more civil the current incarnation of the tedious beef thread is as a result.

New thread: more of a vocal improvement and philosophical discussion, even if biased. There is nothing wrong with bias or deeply held positions, questioning the goals of project, strong critiques and rebukes, etc.

Old thread: baboons throwing whatever baboons throw. That other thread didn't have much of that, it had lower ape behavior.

The debate of what is the "Essence of Quake" is quite relevant and a meaningful discussion. 
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