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Q1SP: Bad Dark Cistern
More remade Quake:
A medium-sized brick/cistern-themed level for single player and deathmatch based on the Quake's stock levels DM5 and DM6, with an underwater DM4 beneath, using the GPL sources.

The maps are joined together retaining the original layouts, and they are touched up with additional detail. Gameplay is pretty much the same deal as the other DM->SP conversions I made - prepare for some good carnage.

It was started as a simple semi-turtlemap project to be released for Christmas, but got delay until now for various reasons and urgent Dragonborn duties. I tried to keep it relatively simple which could be held for or against it (e.g. didn't change the original maps where I probably should have), and the new detail impacts on the performance considerably in comparision. Oh well.



FISHMOTHERFUCKINGFIX This fixes the "solid fish" bug and makes them now non-solid like other monsters so they don't block the water tunnels.

Have fun.
Two links point to the same screenshot. 
Lol At The Title 
screenshots look good
interested to see how dm5 fits in 
Forgot To Add 
This map is released under the terms of GPL v2 or later. The map source is included in the zip. 
Great, Now Czg Won't Play It. 
ok I drowned, no fun ( 
liked the idea and nice merge of 3 classic map in original way! cool map! 
yay, this map rocks ^_^ 
I got lost in the underwater area - despite being based on familar maps so I reckon I've mostly got myself to blame for that.

It was great to see some real use of underwater areas here; something that's rarely made use of. 
I Like What You Did With The Place(s)!

This is Essential Quake: You never fail to impress me with your skill and forethought.
I'm pretty sure this will be an annoying demo for you to watch though, since I'm not particularly well versed in those maps, and I end up wandering quasi-lost a bit. Not that I minded!
Only found 1 secret and missed out on a huge amount of enemies -- so I've obviously got a few more playthroughs to do on this thing too!

Thanks, as always, for keeping things kvlt. 
Forgot To Add #2 
Since the map has a lot of fish, this may be a good opportunity to update your Quake with a proper 1.06 progs.dat that has the fish count bug fixed (I assume most of you don't have it). For convenience, I made one hete which also makes dead fish nonsolid on the first frame (instead of the last), avoiding the annoying blocking that usually occurs with them. To install, simply copy the PAK file into your ID1 directory.

Metl: Would you mind adding the two <!> posts to the OP? thx 
great work negke, love it. tried few times, got killed or drowned, will definitively give it some more playtroughs. the new details and overall pace are perfect, keep it coming pls, thnx
PS: using TGWTDT-Under The Midnight Sun.mp3 as a soundtrack for these fantasy/horror levels lately 
Shots look really good despite "old-schoolish", and that is good !
/me gonna play this this evening... or later but soon feedback will be provided ;) 
Great, Great Map 
Thank you negke! this is what i'd call "a proper rmq map". Very impressive and very negke's 
Cool'n Great ! 
Very cool and fun map. Innovative in many ways, I love it !

Thanks a lot for that one, it's now part of my permanent collection ! ;-)

Quake still lives ! 
i died like a noob in the start of underwater dm4 segment. map looks nice and slick and i agree that spy said about "proper rmq map" because it reminded me of vondur/czg e1m1 stuff.

i'm also digging the fish fixing pak2.pak\progs.dat, thanks alot for that one as well. 
A Wonderful Map. 
I could not pass it to the end because of his gaffes: elementary drowned, after being plunged into the hatch, and hoped that I would find some place where I can come up.
Map very much. The idea is original. In the near future to try to go again. 
Cool Stuff 
The underwater bit was very nice, could have been a bit more frantic by by a longer delay on the biosuit respawn.

You Don't Want To Know How It Worked Before The Beta Tests. 
The Underwater Bit Was Actually Tested?? 
I liked the map.
Was in control of everything until the underwater part :)

Here is skill 2 first play demo: 
Yes, yes it was ;) 
Duh It Was Tested 
We're talking about Negke, one of the biggest perfectionists on the forum! Also the most productive perfectionist on the forum.
Actually, I thought that section was pretty great - maybe could have used a few more spotlights, though.
Digs: revenge for smqx11_digs. 
Thanks For The Demos 
A few observations:
1. The natural reaction of the average Quake player when entering an underwater area is not looking around the room first, but charge into the next best dark tunnel headless
2.apparently the CLEARLY VISIBLE RESPAWNING SUIT RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU is still not visible enough
3. nobody seems to notice the arrows, in and out of the water (guess I shouldn't have dropped the idea of replacing them with the red base arrow)

It suprises me how you seem to get lost so easily - expected the maps to be well-known by every old Quaker.
Sleepy: the respawn delay was longer originally, but seeing how much trouble people still have, I lowered it so they would at least realize right away that it respawns.

Why do Hard player always have so much ammo? One of the testers must have been a double agent!!!! 
So much for perfectionism... 
it just occurred to me now (sorry it didn't happen earlier): if there was a non-respawning suit before entering, the player would feel less pressured to look for a place to go.
this was the reason i charged in the first time. i was looking for a place to get air. i kept going up and found nothing.
i'm a shitty tester. :( 
I had no idea the suit was respawning till I read the comments. You don't expect respawning items in sp. 
I Played It And Stuff 
1. hard to teach old Quaker's new tricks, I guess - as above comments and "essence of Quake" thread suggest.

2. Visible enough for me, unlike

3. The arrows, I guess. I don'tmostly due to *overall darkness*/water-induced panic/ fish- blocking-my-way-due-to-not-having-update panic/ crappy settings on fitz since I haven't used it in a while. But yeah, maybe the brighter base arrows would have helped.

-I am not an old quake player, by this board's standards, only picking it up in 2001/2 or so. I have NEVER played a single game of Quake DM in my life, and so was extra excited by this release - it's all new to me, basically.

-Respawn delay is about perfect as it is considering the light and the gameplay scenario's players will encounter. IMHO.

-Ammo - maybe because we're willing to axe more fish/knights/etc than medium/ easy players? 
I don't think of perfection in the same way you do I guess. More like in a Darwinian sense, maybe? perfection in filling a specific niche, which can change, and doesn't always work in other niches (eg GTF's niche, apparently).

-Incredibly stylized in an old school way - typically Atypical, as I said before - with close attention to detail
-Non old-school gameplay in many aspects, involving gimmicks and hacks and gameplay situations which frustrate some players just looking for a more typical quake shootemup (epitomized by Lower Forecourt, and perfectly balanced - to me - in recent releases).
-Other stuff.

You work and rework your maps to fit your unique vision incredibly closely, I guess, is more what I mean.
Cool. I sound really cool. Going to bed now. 
Thanks Daz 
Being a die-hard professional on the map now, I expected you to play on Hard, though. Btw. "negkay" is fine. Or something pronouncable like that.

Some of the textures looked rather strange. Is the QRP really lacking so many standard textures (e.g. bricks) or does it have a problem with all uppercase names? Don't think so as then the stock maps wouldn't work with it, either. 
..looks obnoxious
i'll try anyway though brown/green maps are not my cup of tea 
I Like It 
But I was constantly running out of ammo. That part I admit to not enjoying. The skill level on which this happened, I forget.

The details added were just right. They really seemed to compliment the original maps, and I especially liked the pipes visible from missing sections of the walls.

Down in the underwater area, I didn't drown, but I was constantly lost. Reading the comments above I agree about the arrows. Maybe they could be red instead, and possibly be blinking and making alarming noises.

Despite however much time I've spent playing quake DM, I was not that familiar with the maps, so maybe that is why I got lost.

With the assistance of ye olde ninth impulse, I will probably play again. 
The only hires textures I have installed are Starbucks ones for idbase and his metal ones too. It does look a bit strange on this map I should have disabled them really :P 

The underwtaer section had two fails though. The spawn, and the flow logic of where the air supply was.

Putting spawn in water basically nulls the only advantage the player has on them - being able to dodge out of the way.

The suit wasn't in front of the player, it was below them.

When entering water EVERYONE looks up - that's where the air is, not down. The pipe in the ceiling automatically makes you think 'ah, there must be air up there' when in reality it just loops you round into a watery grave.

I suspect having the suit just floating in the center of the room would have been a good move here - less frantic when trying to get back for it, and it being impossible not to notice upon entering.

Never found where to turn off the waterfall sound. 
Shouldn't everyone look down - because that's where the fish are? Makes sense about the pipe, and in retrospect a small air pocket certainly would have been helpful. Trivia: initially that pipe was supposed to connect the water area and the pump room as the exit route after getting the control unit.

Waterfall sound: readme 
Ah, it being an exit makes more sense actually. Without it being there most players would find the suit right away.

Enemies are good for leading a player to an area, but not for making the player notice what's in it, especially if they're under the additional pressure of drowning.

For the sound it said drainpipe near the start - which left me a bit confused, tbh. I would have expected it near the waterfall, but couldn't find anything there. And for me this: is a drainpipe. Maybe I'm too British.

BTW I'm not just whinging about the map - it's just harder to comment on good things.

I did like the general ambiance, traps, jumping monsters, spawns hiding under stairs and the concept of drowning DM4.

I noticed the arrows ok. 
Nice Map 
I just finished the map (on easy - I don't want challenge, I want to just enjoy it :)). it's nice, a combination of oldschool with some new elements, but the entire map feels exactly like the original Quake - dark textures, everything looks strange and ancient.

On the first run 80/109 kills and 2/5 secrets. I will try again later and I'll look for all secrets.

Anyway, very nice map, I'd like a lot to see more like this, maybe a remake of start/end maps from original Quake :) 
Sack the testers they are all imbeciles.

Surely no-one is moronic enough to think that dumping the player in an underwater maze full of rotfish that block the way when dead in tight corridors with minimal health and minimal indication of where to go then putting spawn in critical places and finally dumping a vore at the end of that bit when the player can't outswim voreballs AND making the whole section depend on a new respawning biosuit mechanic which isn't part of Quake and isn't introduced to the player is anything approaching a good idea??

Apart from that, cool map. I didn't really pay attention to the name so kept thinking "this looks familiar" and then finally twigged. I like the detail tweaks to the map and the combination of DM5 and DM6. And I generally like the gameplay esp bouncing ogres and some good ambushes. The Quad secret was great too, I got it right at the end when I had 29 health and the exit Shambler left. I just ran away lolz.

One thing it reminded me of - well done vanilla Quake is still great fun. 
drew didn't have any problems with the vore, neither did I. 
it just occurred to me now (sorry it didn't happen earlier): if there was a non-respawning suit before entering, the player would feel less pressured to look for a place to go.
Yes - this was kind-of my experience. God damn, that was a tricky maze. And i'm almost at the point of not even looking for secrets on Negke's maps. 2/5 but i noclipped to the ***** quad. Nice to play a map again :) 
I **** that ***** beside the gold key door, but didn't find the secret till wandering around lost at the end!

So 3/5 isn't too bad i guess. Was there a Necros was here secret ? 
If you put it that way...
Then again, you chose Hard and you got what you've asked for, so you're probably just butthurt and choadsucking.

But yeah, that area could have used more work still, and more testing. It can serve as an example for future maps.

Putting another suit in the entrance tunnel was actually suggested before, but I considered it unnecessary after the changes I made in the room. 
Difficulty is PERFECT. I played on skill 0 and I never died, I never was in real danger. So for me it's simply perfect. I played a lot of games and quake maps on easy and almost always I had some problems, that's *not* ok, easy should be easy.

Now if you play on normal it's ok to have some problems, the game should be challenging. And on hard it should be HARD, you shouldn't do any mistake.

On "mightmare" it should be impossible to finish the level without using "pro" skill (rocket jumping, making monsters kill each other, etc). Conventional gameplay should kill you fast. 
Was spot on on Hard compared to general custom Quake maps, well balanced, fair challenge, good ambushes, things to keep you on your toes. I enjoyed it. The underwater bit was seperate to that.

P.S. If you don't understand how Nightmare changes the skill from Hard in vanilla Quake, don't comment on it thx xxx 
Looking Forward To Trying This Map 
Will try to play tonight and post comments.

I remember having some chat with Negke a couple of years ago about making a full DM remix of all the maps in the same vein as DM3RMX. Nice to see one of us actually finished something :)

By the way, what were the other DM remixes? I think I must have missed them. 
Holy Shit! 
I remember that and can't believe I didn't play it :/

Will try that too if I have time. Negke, you are a mapping machine. 
Deathmatch Classics Vol. 3 
thanks for tip necros/than! some good maps there
OT: how to get rid of Packet Overflow error pls? I use "fitzquake080 -game sm36 +scr_menuscale 2 +scr_conwidth 600 +sv_aim 1 +gl_texturemode +skill 1 -gl_texsort 0 -gl_detail 1 +map dmc3m2" command to run quake. game seems unable to play too many sounds at once
OT: any experiences using hamachi virtual LAN program to play online? we are unable to connect, do I need to use port 12975 to connect? dont have public IP 
Note that unlike what we talked about, this map is not a complete remake/remix like dm3rmx, or what RMQ does. It's just a touched-up combination of the the id sources. Of course, considering how long it took me to finish it, I could/should have made one from scratch just as easily...

Jaromir83: The only packet overflow issue I'm aware of in DMC3 can occur in dm3m8. There's a button behind the start slipgate to enable a rudimentary corpse-removal system to cure it (needs to be activated when entering the level). Fitzquake080 still uses the old limits, try version 0.85 instead. This will fix any of such issues. Btw. gl_texturemode needs additional data, either a number or the full renderer name. 
Another Jewel... 
Great idea to combine these three DM levels into one!

The textures were from the old school set, but the architecture (arches, ribs, etc.) and pipe details made the overall map feel really new. There were a few awkward areas layout-wise, but that probably has more to do with the original maps than anything.

The gameplay was fresh, as always, with the water pump part hunt, bouncy bad guys, and the submerged arena. The paper roll credits were funny and, hopefully, Than will enjoy the homage that Daz passed by in his video.

Awesome! Awesome! Awesome! 
Building from scratch but following the layout is much faster. 
> Note that unlike what we talked about,
> this map is not a complete remake/remix
> like dm3rmx, or what RMQ does.

thats how i like it - not overloaded with 'new' stuff 
Great work as usual from negke. A fine blend of old and new, but still retaining that classic Quake feel - just the way I like it. Really good build quality as well, I enjoyed taking in all the architecture as I went along.

skill 3 demo

(forgot the fishy patch, and got instakilled by a spawn once, never seen that before) 
Spawn Insta-kill.. 
...would that be the same as the Fiend jump insta-kill bug then?? 
Dogs can insta-kill too. It's rare but it happens. 
What Bug 
Its fixed 120 T_radiusdamge, its coded to instakill unless you have armor.

Calling jumptouch several times is very unlikely to kill, its only 10+10*rnd. 
Insta Kills 
Considering how erratic the spawn jump behavior is, I could imagine it can lead to such an effect if bad comes to worse. I noticed dog super jumps too, but they usually only do a moderate amount of extra damage. Fiend super jumps on the other hand are a real problem. I had to swap fiends and shambler in the GK area, because they would do it quite easily when jumping from the stairs or landing close to the edge of the bridge. I changed that after getting gibbed by one of them despite having 150 health + at least 100 yellow armor. 
Re 58 
that's not the insta-kill bug.

the insta-kill bug happens when a leaping monster (dog, fiend, tarbaby) lands on top of the player and then deal the hit damage every frame until the player and monster are no longer touching.
if you're getting more than 10 fps, you pretty much die immediately. 
Nice one. No problems whatsoever even on NM, apart from the spawn thing of course. Only missed one secret and you were so close.

What is Fitzquake 0.86
That's the one, I remember Mindcrime explaining it to me just like that. Why does it happen in some circumstances? 
Quoth The Preach 
The reason it doesn't cancel after one hit can be found in the if(!checkbottom(self) block. This checks if the fiend is properly onground, basically if it's on flat navigable ground. If this is not the case then it's still in the air, or stuck on a steep slope. The inner if statement checks for FL_ONGROUND, which would mean it's on a steep slope. In that case it resets the touch function and goes for another jump.

However, most commonly if checkbottom is false, the fiend is off the ground with no FL_ONGROUND, so it just goes to the return at the bottom of the block without changing the touch function.

Normally when two entities collide side to side and stay in contact they don't get repeat touches called, so even if you run at the fiend which is leaping, you only take one ping of damage. In theory if you could hit it, back off and hit it again you could take damage twice but it's not easy to do that.

When a fiend lands on your head it's a bit different. For some reason quake registers a touch every frame for vertical collisions like this, possibly the gravity code, I couldn't say. But isn't the fiend at rest as soon as it comes to rest on your head? Sadly, standing on an entity doesn't count for checkbottom, and even worse, the sliding bbox effect is caused because you don't get FL_ONGROUND on top of such an entity. So the fiend decides it's in the air the whole time, and you keep getting hit.
I thought I got it from here, but now that you mention it (and me googling it), I have no idea. Maybe it's this? 
Just Replayed This. 
Comments exactly the same before. The map in general is great. I noticed the fitting together of DM5 and 6 more this time, as well as more of the little details (mostly while hunting for secrets!). Gameplay still good, the bouncing vore and spawn ambushes being a favourite. Got 5/5 secrets too. The underwater bit is still awful, even knowing exactly what to do and quicksaving all the time it is still totally unbalanced and out of place in a map this fun. 
Dogs can insta-kill too. It's rare but it happens.

yeah i remember it was happened once playing to the harms way map 
Nice Map 
but I agree with the comments about the DM4 section being frustrating. I cheated to get through that bit even though I knew the suit respawned. Why?

I know the DM4 layout, but you blocked bits off, so it made it harder to figure out where I was an where I needed to go. Also, after I hit the first switch, the exit back into the main atrium didn't open. I later went back and it opened, so I guess I didn't try to go close enough to it for it to trigger, but I was kind of pissed off by then anyway, so I just noclipped around and figured it out. The fish were very annoying too, and although that's just a Quake bug I guess, you could have made it easier to avoid the tunnels getting clogged up with dead fish.

Anyway, other than that it was great, and I liked the way you connected the maps together - it all flowed together very nicely. 
i had no qualms with the underwater area. i mean i spent ages down there and kept getting lost but always found my way back to the biosuit in time (clocked the respawn sound straight away too)

i've long since altered my id1 progs to fix that annoying nonsolid delay on the fish but i appreciate that's not something everyone feels inclined to do (even when the fix is provided). i'd suggest a custom game folder/pak distribution but you seem to have a bit of an aversion to them judging by how far you tend to stretch id1 ;) 
The fish fix progs I provided makes the fish nonsolid, too. It's unfortunate only the link was edited into the OP without the description from the post. It can be used as an id1 patch or individual mod, however you prefer.

I agree there shouldn't have been fish in the tunnels - I'm so used to non-blocking (even gibbing) fish thanks to my dev progs that I didn't give it enough thought.

I'm still a little puzzled how most of you get lost down there so badly. Feeling 'a bit' lost is okay, intentional, but I'm surprised about how you can get this hopelessly lost in such a small part of a map. I mean usually you do realize you've been in an area (entrance) before, and then try another one, unless your sense of orientation is akin to the monster AI. So my the theory, anyway.
Having said that, I see that the current setup is unnecessairly prone to confusion. The buttons should have been on the walls, not the floor, for better visibility and also linked to the barriers to make it harder to 'clear' the essential rooms without pressing the buttons.

If you happen to know an equally confusing map (not maze), tell me. I'd like to put my own sense of orientation to the test. 
My Shitty Skill3 Demo 
Equally Confusing Map 

I think the linking tunnels were a major source of confusion for me. My sense of direction completely went to hell in them and they were all so similar that it quickly became difficult to know which one you were in or if you'd been these before. 
i may have exaggerated a little; i was definitely closer to 'a bit' than 'hopelessly'

one possible explanation for the disorientation is that when underwater, the typical player probably takes less time to examine their surroundings as they will invariably be hurrying through at pace to avoid losing air, often swimming to the first opening they come across rather than properly examining all routes. even with the respawning biosuit it's almost instinct to anyone familiar with the game

the most confusing quake map i can remember is... well actually, e4m3. i still get lost in that to this day ;/ 
Sandy Petersen Ftw 
e4m7 for me. 
Thanks for the reviews, quakis and Tronyn. And thanks again for all the demos. Sorry about water area - next time I'll try to make it more noob-friendly. ;) 
That Ceiling Tube 
Was complete n00b trolling - admit it.

Looking again at the rest of the layout, I realise how complex it all is... 
Yeah, Ok 
Btw. than, did you get the homage? <3 
Yeah, I Did 
"Remove your tie before you go in" and "another plumbing job well done"?

Thanks :) 
Cool Map 
Really enjoyed playing through this map. The extra details and the retexture of dm6 made it feel really seamless and up to the architecture expected of quake this days. Combat was never unfair and there was good creative use of jumping monsters and angles. I did find that by half way I was completely out of shells and ended up using nails in combats I wouldn't usually - but that might just be my instinct to mostly save them for high pressure fights.

I liked the underwater segment to a point, because it gave an exploration feel which I wasn't expecting in a map comprised of levels I already knew. I did get caught out at first because I missed the respawning airsuit first time round and expected instead that I'd have to find one somewhere else. Once I got the hang of that it worked fine.

I think the connecting pipes down there were what made it most difficult though. As you said it is disorienting in any water section, and so having tunnels whose design offers no distinction between horizontal and vertical caused problems. This was compounded by the combination of water, dark texture and low lighting which made everything indistinct on my monitor.

That was the only real problem I encountered though, and I still liked the overall idea of an extensive water exploration segment. Finally, curse you for making a fetch quest with a non-key item - that's been something I wanted to do in a quake entity-hack map for a while! I shall have to make mine more gruesome now... 
I try not to read the threads too much before I review a map (like maybe read only the first 5-10 posts), but the water section was noob-friendly enough for me ;) the traps in Lower Forecourt were way more confusing to me. What is awesome though is just these new scenarios you always invent. Shit I'm Michael Bay compared to you ;)
Necros might be a bit more of a Chris Nolan. heh. 
Am I the David Lynch of Quake then? Or the Uwe Boll.. 
you're too hard on yourself. you're at least a peter jackson! 
Very Very Cool Map 
wasnt expecting to like it as much as I did (mainly because dm5 and dm6 are very bland looks wise but your additions were good enough), but the gameplay in this map is awesome IMHO. Well balanced and a lot of fun with many surprises. 
100% Spoiler Demo 
Demo | Video

For onepureturtle and others who missed some of the secrets or cba to play the map. 
Scuba at this time found, but in the end still choked ... A lot of water ... Panic :)
Will try again 
yes! I did it! 
Better late than never. 
And I still have not found out how to finish digs06. 
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