Oh! I Forgot To Mention In The News Post
This map does require a modern engine like Fitz or Quakespasm, as I do exceed a couple standard limits. I'm sure you all use those engines anyway, but still...
This Map Is Cool And Awesome!
Map of the year contender already now? You better believe it, darling!
I Still See It
Full Of Upside Down Rivets.
Brilliant map Scampie. CRATES and BROWN have never looked so good. Great attention to detail especially in the design but also in some of the gameplay too, the escalation of challenge was very well done and the ending was really tense.
Things I liked especially:
Triangular shaped room designs.
Teleporter / slipgate stuff and gameplay.
The pipe pit.
Air vent progression, felt rather QuakeII.
The only things I could think to be improved:
Gameplay earlier on in the map is a bit too tame, with the scenery and crates it could have been made more tactical.
The end area is pretty bland compared to the designs before.
Oh and, I can just smell a fucking secret in that underwater pipe but can't find it for the life of me, aaargh.
Very slick base level.
Fuck You Guys
releasing shit during crunch time.
Recorded Bit Of A Demo
died, cuz rushing
Will post it, and completed demo later, along with comments.
Even better than I'd expected so far!
Very Cool Map
Played it on easy, finished it without problems, 95/95, 6/9. The classic Quake textures are great, in the last years everybody used new textures and the maps didn't look "quakey". But this one looks very nice, it has that Quake base feel. I must try to finish my base map now...
Worst release timing ever.
Nice map for a base map.
Highlights for me:
- The first medieval enemies spilling over into the base after the slipgate overload
- Base Commander Fribbles lol
- How you handled the connection to the proper Quake realm at the end.
PS - this is really impressive for a month's work!
That's Major Fribbles To You Kinny
Stuff I didn't mention to avoid spoilers >:(
you released it! :)
The first couple of rooms felt small but I think that is because of CZG's release! Played on skill 1 and ran out of ammo a couple of times which was frustrating and progress through rooms felt odd with all the crate jumping. I liked the on screen messages, but they were very quick and I missed a few.
I think the gameplay pacing should of been more varied with different styles, it felt too linear, open door ... fight, open door ... fight. You said in a message there was an intruder alert but I never saw anything burst through a door looking for me. I kept opening doors and everything was just watching the door. I saw no patrols or chance to sneak up on anything, the place did not feel like it was an emergency. The pipe room with the vorn was frustrating and I did not enjoy the ending with lets throw everything at the player in a tight box. I am not sure what feedback you got for this map from your beta testers but it seems people here like this type of ending.
The visuals and construction of the base were awesome, I loved the attention to details. The bulkheads, the trims, the machines, the control panel text, wires connecting buttons and some very cool secrets.
It is indeed amazing work for 1 month, congrats on the release! :) Damn you Scampie, now I want to make a Q1 map!
rats, i will have to wait till next weekend to play this. :S
Not Bad For Your First Map, I Guess...
Heh, actually it's great. Thank you for this fine trimwork - may it serve as an example for other mappers.
Good layout and detail. Though you really could have fixed the textures on the upper sky bits (beige non-detail tex vs unaligned wall tex) for the holistic thing.
I don't like cop1_5 - it's a blurry version of cop1_4 and looks weird next to normal textures.
Gameplay on Hard was fun, if not a bit predictable in some areas (but it's okay). Also, OMG hacks!
A few zombies for relief gibbing would have worked well, too. I wouldn't have minded an occasional shambler or vore earlier on, either. No SNG and GL seem to work here, but I can imagine it might get tedious for some players after a while.
Nice secrets... meaning easy enough that I managed to find seven (plus the useless one afterwards). The pent should have been something else, in my view. GG for the signature/easter egg intermission.
What I find most impressive is how seemingly fast you made the map. Seemed like a matter of days, or maybe two weeks, not months or aeons like other people (including me) would take for a map of this size.
Thank you all for comments :)
Shambler: Yeah they end could've likely done with more work, but I did also want it to feel very much like Shub's pit.
spirit: someone had to release a map after czg! Sorry my doors suck, I just grabbed the than texture and ran with it.
sock: I'm sorry it sounds like I frustrated you. I added and added to ammo, and then cut and cut ammo... guess I still could've used some extra in spots.
I shot for a 'lots of enemies' style of gameplay rather than 'each enemy is an encounter' type, like czg did. But I still think you're right, and my next map I will make some serious thoughts into 'presentation of combat' rather than simply 'there is combat'.
Get to work on your q1sp! :D
negke: I should've had you beta test and find every misaligned texture!.. From your demo you mentioned the inners of doors using a 32 unit trim texture... the gold key door actually has that... and I completely forgot to go do that for all the other doors. You had mentioned the hallway seemed 'copy pastey'... well that's because it is, I much prefer to spend my serious time on large rooms, and just make modular hallways so I can more on to the next cool large room.
You're right about the Pent, it once was where the MH was... but then I felt the MH gave you too much health toward the end of the map if you found it... likely should've just made it Red Armor and left it at that. And now that you say it, I do now kind of wish I had moved the RL to the silver/gold key room, and added more Vore/Shamblers earlier. Hindsight you know?
so yeah - 1st one is an attempt to finish the map before going to school - didn`t work out.
Second play through is quite a bit more leisurely.
Agree about the speed/quality ratio - very impressive. Made me want to map as well! Maybe I'll whip up a speed/turtle map...
Thought the feel of this was great - it did feel a bit room-corridor-room at times, but this to me is not inherently a bad thing. In fact I really liked the way it worked. Agree with what others said re having some big dudes earlier on/having some more sneaky strategic stuff earlier -- though of course I don't have any suggestions for what that would entail.
Agree re pent - but as you'll see it didn't really matter for me anyway.
Don't agree about gameplay mechanics issues really - I feel like you do a great job orchestrating arena combat, personally. But I'm into that shit.
So... sequel this time next month?
Finished! Really nice work, I enjoyed the theme a lot and the idea behind the spilled magic juice was awesome (although I wish it was used more).
When I stepped on the magic spill and was teleported into that little arena and was told my presence was noted ... I got chills. That was AWESOME.
I ran out of ammo and had to cheat (god) to finish but whatever ... was still good fun!
Drew: Your use of the pent was fucking legendary :)
Can't believe I missed that megahealth.
I really like the tiny nook based secrets everywhere. gonna do more of that in my own shit, I think.
the explosive secret is 100% safe. the explosion happens far enough away that you can axe it open and not take damage.
no explosion noises when I play?
Yeah, I Saw That During Your Demo
IDK why, it's literally OgreGrenadeExplode... so it should play the explosion sound of Ogre Grenades.
Works in Fitz/QuakeSpasm
actually it's good timing to release right after czg's map, because everyone is gonna have the quake bug for a few days after playing czg's stuff so they're more likely to load scampie's map up as well. i haven't played either yet, will do soon.
I thoroughly enjoyed this from start to finish - excellent work Scampie. I played on hard and got all kills, but missed a few secrets along the way. I didn't go back to find them (though I appreciated the fact that you provided the means to do so) because I wanted an excuse to play through again later.
For me, the balance and pacing was spot on. I had enough ammo and health to get by, but not enough to be wasteful. I died twice, the first time early on because I actually did run out of ammo (but played more sensibly in the next run), the second time I got smashed at the end because I made too many mistakes.
I thought the monster placement and layout of the combat arenas was particularly good. Enemies were used intelligently, and there was always enough room to manoeuvre, but not quite enough open space and cover to be completely comfortable. I liked the fast pace, personally - I like action in action games - but there was enough down time here and there to prevent it from feeling too "full on".
Level flow was also really good, it was always clear where to go and while the route was fairly linear, It didn't feel too forced or "railroaded". Atmosphere and architecture was great (or should I say crate), lots of little details and nice touches everywhere. On the one hand it feels like classic idbase because of the texture use, but the brushwork also gives it a more modern feel.
It's rare for me to enjoy a map as much as I did this one, so be proud Scampie - great level design - thanks!
Thank you for the kind words Major Fribbles... You're base commander because of the float point rotation fix QBSP you provided.
Only A Pity The Map Exceeds The Limits.
I took a look at the source to see if there's potential for optimization, but it would be tricky. Getting the model count down would be no problem at all. Reducing edicts by 60 is a different matter, though. There are spots where a trigger_relay or two could be saved, but it's not enough to lower the count significantly. I'm not even sure if cutting back on some ambient sounds would do the trick, for instance in areas where they are placed in a wasteful way, like the exit arena.
Not that many people here would care either way - it's just that this map feels like it could have been a normal level.
a quick look at the source:
That be where the edicts are going
Would you be willing to use a custom progs for scamp 2? I could throw you some QC that removes the need to use any of these entities (apart from on player teleports)...
the original intent was to be 'no mod, can play in standard quake'.. but I slowly got over the limits, and was going to make an attempt to get below, but thinking about how much I'd have to sacrifice, I decided not to bother, which them made me question why I didn't use custom progs in the first place.
So yes Kinn, I would be willing
No need for Kinnmod then since Quoth has corresponding functionality and more.
yeah, likely actually Quoth wouldn't be bad
but if I'm going to have custom qc, I'd rather something I can mod myself :>
This was a great fun map that felt true to id base while featuring skillful brushwork and unique cool geometry (I especially liked the rounded triangle room.)
I played on Hard, got all kills and felt it was a nice mix of hectic fights that rarely frustrated mixed with some downtime sightseeing. I never ran out of ammo because I play conservatively and used cover a lot. BTW, cover really helps in the final arena - use what's there and live to see the exit.
I only had to backtrack to find one secret (the Pent). The other eight I found as I went. So this is a fun map for secret hunters and it shouldn't drive you mad looking for a full score. I liked the unique message for each one.
It exits to an unfound scampsp2 and that bodes well if it means the second is on the way. Negke is an excellent map defect finder and beta tester as I experienced his helpful quality focused feedback on my Travail maps so he would be a great help on the sequel.
Because I am super awesome at Quake!
I actually found 6/9 but wasn't recording at the time, boo.
I like the constant action on this map, very fast paced, reminds me very much of the id1 maps. The quad run was awesome.
Nice use of circular areas and curves, the connecting corridors felt a bit dull in comparison however.
A++++ would play again
Triangle Room Club
Oh mighty scampie, please accept this humble demo as an offering!
I played on normal skill because I'm too absent minded to change it before loading a map.
I'm in agreement with scragbait that the triangular design of the gold key room was particularly eye-catching, and the map as a whole had a very strong and consistent build.
Combat was a blast too, there were several fights where I felt that jockeying for position within a room was worthwhile rather than just sniping from cover at the opening, which is always good. I also liked the use of monsters atop boxes to prevent them from wandering away from their sniper spots (although there's a knight which does that in the demo, who seemed harmless until I killed him...) Who needs monsterclip?
So yeah, now I'm gonna go away for the evening and hack your map until it's under 600 entities and 256 models. Laters!
that goddamn knight.
he walks onto that crate, but won't walk off it.
also, how the hell did the dog get in the water in your demo? :O
Why Would He
when he's having such a crate time?
You Know How You Get In The Vent In This Map?
You have to make a grate shot.
I think he must have jumped at me from the side and landed in the water.
On the entity hacking front, I managed to wrestle it down to 585 on load using a trick to remove all the "ambient_x" entities. If you add
it removes them to make way for more entities. The sounds themselves play without the entity.
It's not really enough by itself though, because if you rampage through the map in a blasé fashion you'll build up enough entities through gibs or backpacks to exceed 600. Next I'm gonna look for any idle entities which can perform double duty as trigger_relay ents...
I'm pretty sure models could be pushed under the limit by just turning each trigger_teleport for your monsters into a point entity. Just being in contact with the monster should be enough to teleport it. I'm too lazy to do it tonight though because I'd have to perform a full compile which would probably involve a loooong vis.
Yeah, the point ent trigger_teleport was suggested to me, but by that point I was far too lazy to redo them and was over other limits anyway.
Why didn't you post that earlier? Would have saved me a shitload of frustration. Nice trick, good to know.
I saw a few trigger_relay ents that could be cut. Among them is the one that killtargets shub and the intermissions (trigger_counter can do this directly). Can't remember the others. :P
Pro tip for certain cases, not necessarily in this map: doors can fire their targets with delay if you add a "use" "multi_trigger" field. No need for an extra relay trigger.
Really I should have asked to see the map, I can never remember these things when on the spot, but when I look through the entity lists they come back to me. This time it actually took me running it in an unreleased version of a mod in which I made a drive to optimize entities. Running the map in that mod instantly put it under the limit so I spent a while trying to remember which optimisations I had coded!
Two random facts that should be tied into saving entities and trigger_relays. One which you should always be mindful of is that whenever an entity has .delay set, it actually spawns an temporary entity to perform the delay. So the exploding slipgate sequence increases the number of entities in the map by 4 or 5 for the second before they start exploding.
The other is that trigger_relay entities are less entity count friendly than trigger_once are. If you have a trigger_once then it removes itself after firing. In examples like the trigger_relay targeting the exploding slipgate, the trigger will only be fired once. In this case we can use the trigger_once code to make new entities which tidy up after themselves:
Ideally, all these tricks and information scattered across the various threads should be reposted in a central location (progs.dat thread, quoth thread, optimization 101 thread etc). But ho! It will never happen.
To make it even one step simpler, just use a trigger_once with notouch instead of the notnull.
Also, sometimes using a trigger_once entity is preferable to a relay anyway, since relays lack the "wait" "-1" funtionality. And they can't be used for the sound hack, either. Speaking of which, the Shub sound setup in the map uses more entities than necessary (would only need a single trigger_once).
It used to use the shub death sound, which I didn't relieze was a looping sound... and I was basically throwing entities at it to make it stop once the first wave spawned (and it would... sometimes...)
Just didn't go back and clean it up.
fear my incredible laziness!
I had quite a fight with the death sound myself in that one DMC3 map. Ended up using some weird-ass setup where a door has shubdeath as stop sound and moves far away after a few seconds to make it stop. Dem hax
So there's a kinda weird edge case here which fitzquake doesn't report as an error. If you exceed the 600 entity count but drop back under it before the first two frames are up the "standard limit exceeded" message doesn't print. If you set fitz max_edicts to 600 and then run the map, it won't load because it runs out. Presumably the same thing would happen in standard engines, but I can't test because they hit the model limit first.
That means that while these tricks are nice, none of them are good enough to get the map loading on standard engines. Fixing ambient entities progs side would suffice but that's no fun!
As you say, trigger_once with notouch is enough here. The info_notnull way can be useful if you're doing it through an editor which doesn't like point entities with the same classname as brush entities (and adding another model would defeat the other limit here). Anyhow, back to work...
"Ideally, all these tricks and information scattered across the various threads should be reposted in a central location (progs.dat thread, quoth thread, optimization 101 thread etc)."
Yep it is amazing how much stuff is scattered all over the place, finding it is not easy and involves trawling long thread here at Func.
Current Score: 4
So I saved 4 entities by overlapping trigger_relay entities with the info_player_spawn, info_player_spawn2, info_player_deathmatch and the secret info_intermission.
Next step (which I only thought up after deleting half this post) is to go in and turn enough of those ambient entities into trigger_relay hosts rather than self-removing entities, because getting the map to load is more of a win than saving the entities straight off.
Close But No Cigar
With those tricks I managed to get the map to load in fitz with 600 max_edicts and skill. Unfortunately I think I've copy-pasted something wrong along the way because the hell knights didn't spawn in the ending fight, but otherwise the map was under the limits*.
I might start from scratch tomorrow, this time fixing enough of the teleporter models so that the model count is below 256. You'd have to throw out any entity hacking progress for any change that need recompilation anyway**.
*If you played belligerently enough, refusing to find a single secret, killing all the enemies but collecting no packpacks, and spraying nails across the longest distance you could find it was still possible to exceed max_edicts, but realistic play was fine.
**We can't reduce model count through entity hacks, because even if we removed all references to a particular model in the bsp, it gets precached automatically just through being in the bsp.
You can also save 10 or so models also by making several func_illusionaries into brushes again. Wires, tops of crates/grates. They were only illusionary because I didn't like the little view pop as you walked over them and moved up 4 units.
and the wires/lights in the vents don't need to be illusionary either, they just are!
Quite Liked This
found it a bit easy on medium skill but very polished looking map (not counting the tech stuff mentioned above), especially for a month's work.
Bring on scampsp2.
More Fun Bugs
Getting closer, I swear.
But when I recompiled I found that the ogre atop the first slipgate was coming out rotated 90 degrees. I know I hack a lot of entities, but I was sure I hadn't done anything to provoke this. Looking at the original map, the angle for that teleporter is "-1.40334e-014".
This works fine in the quake engine, but there seems to be an unfortunate bug in Hammer. When you load the map file, it appears that Hammer first rounds this value off to an integer incorrectly, by not bothering to parse past the decimal point to find the exponent. This means that it gets rounded to -1.
So what Preach, the editor is still out by less than 1 degree, who cares?
Well, that's what makes the bug unfortunate, -1 is the hack used to indicate an entity facing straight up!
Why Radiant apparently sets that as the angle when all I likely did was rotate it 90 degrees with it's own rotate tool is lovely.
The method of attack was:
Open in editor, replace approx. half the teleport brushes with point entities (setting their models to maps/b_nail0.bsp so that they have volume).
Compile the map (I was lazy and did a standard light pass/level 2 vis on the precompiled version provided).
At this point we are below the model limit.
Next come the hacks to get us below the 600 entity limit on map start : Merge 4 of the trigger_relay entities into the info_player_spawn, info_player_spawn2, info_player_deathmatch and info_intermission. Merge every remaining trigger_relay entity into one of the ambient_* entities. This got the map down to 601 entities and I was stuck so tantalizing for about 20 minutes before I realised I could also merge trigger_counter entities in the same way. 600 exactly on hard difficulty!
Thirdly we need to have enough spare entities to not crash while we play. First things, all the ambient_ entities which are not performing double duties as triggers get instructed to suicide themselves on frame 1. That nets us about 20 entities.
Once you get past the exploding slipgate sequence the entity pressure drops enough to ignore. So the last bit of work was to make sure that up until that point we can save as many entities as possible. Firstly I went through and made sure that any trigger_counter entities which fire before that point are removing themselves once used.
Next was to make the early teleporting monsters tidy up after themselves, by making them killtarget their own teleport destinations on death. This makes sure that even if the player doesn't collect their backpack, the net change to the entity count is 0. There's a mild hack which is worth sharing here: monsters won't killtarget entities successfully unless they have a target field set as well. It doesn't matter what the target field is, any non-empty string will do, but choosing an unused targetname feels safer.
Phew, so now I can stop spamming this thread with hackchat and everyone who couldn't play the map before can come share!
That's fucking impressive
Nice work. I'll have to remember these tricks.
Did you give the monster teleporters a custom model just so it would override the brush models from the original map? Because, like I said in the other thread, they don't need volume in order to function, and using ammo boxes as models can cause critical compatibility issues with mods that change the standard files/names (e.g. Quoth, RMQ) which will result in a hard crash.
Hope nobody uses the provided bsp as is. Anything else than -level 4 VIS is not recomended (and it's not even proven that lower levels finish that much faster). Also, by the looks of it the bsp wasn't compiled with Frib's modified TxQBSP - there are many 'micro-misaligned' trims now.
Anyway, nice trickery, and a real pity it wasn't discovered earlier.
Negke Is The Sherlock Holmes Of Q1SP
And it's an actually grand title. I can't think of anyone in Q1SP more meticulous or technically competent. I'd accuse negke of being the unabomber but I know that dude doesn't have internet access. And he was arrested and imprisoned just about the time Quake came out... so yeah!
Reviews of this and CZG's new map should be coming soonish; awesome to see new stuff coming in after a slow start to 2012.
I couldn't get the teleports to activate without giving them volume, do you have to set them up as info_notnulls with a bunch of carefully defined fields? As they are currently if you remove the models then the monsters don't teleport in.
Fair point on the particular model, although really once you start doing hacks you are tied to a specific mod. For instance, say the next version of quoth takes to heart the message that ambient_ entities don't need to remain after they are spawned and culls them in their spawn functions. That would completely break this version of the map!* I suppose the safest model to use would be player.mdl as it's a compulsory precache enforced by the engine.
*Quoth is reasonably good about "optimisation" changes and compatibility, partly for consideration of maps that use these kinds of hacks. Things like the globally replaced ammo packs are opt-in with a flag on worldspawn, so that particular change wouldn't hurt this map.
You need to give them an origin field of course, and it must be within the monsters bounding box. I usually copy the coordinates from the monster.
It's important to set the silent spawnflag on such triggers, though. Otherwise you'll get the teleporter sound at (0 0 0).
Tronyn: If I'm Sherlock Holmes, then Preach must be Watson. He does all the basic work, I get drunk and take the credit. ;)
Just tried it again and this time all the point sized teles work fine, must have broken something else last time I tried it. I'll run through those points and put out a repackaged version later today
ZOMG. Playing. Now.
A shame I started drinking already for the day -- this may take a while.
• Compiled with frib qbsp, level 4 vis (yes it was faster) and extra light.
• Removed the models from the point teleporters.
Got Quite Far
Then got owned by vores.
I recorded under RMQ engine, ot sure if that'll cause problems for protocol or whatever.
Nice, BUT: light -extra4 is where it's at!
Ok, I'll stop now.
A fun little (well, kinda large) map with some nicely detailed areas.
I really liked the combat toward the end of the map, although felt you could have introduced some other weapons into the mix, since ssg and ng was starting to wear a bit thin after a while... then I got the RL and plenty of ammo, so I was ok again.
Died a couple of times on normal right near the end, and due to getting pwned by those shamblers and blowing up a dog at the end and nearly taking myself with it I finished on 2 health.
Only found 3 or 4 secrets, but I wasn't looking that hard.
yes the arena at the end was pretty cool. Got my ass kicked there since my hands were cold I fumbled switching weapons and then my hands strayed from asdw - I think I walked into every grenade the ogres through at me AND dipped my toes into that lovely warm lava a few times to boot. Even if the fiends hadn't finished me off, I would have never gotten past the monsters that followed them.
I liked it. Good to see the old textures and monsters after only 16 years since the game came out. Congrats
I can't play this map under RMQ, can someone look into it?
I know at someone sent me a demo of the map that I had to download the silly RMQ engine to watch... so... idk... what sort of error does it give you?
Someone did not read post #61.
The map should work fine in the RMQ engine (protocol 999), but not the RMQ mod.
I tried it - there's an unsupported qc hack in there somewhere, to do with a train I think the error was.
Just run the engine, not the mod.
set -game id1
... after a serious cleaning of my GFX card: dust was the reason.... Anyway...
This is a great base map. It's been a long time I was waiting for such good base map. Architecture and design layout is awesome. Maybe lightning effects could have been enriched a little bit with more contrast... though...
Gameplay was never boring, never been short on ammo/health/armor... maybe in the final horde area....
Scampie, you should consider to start a sequel to this map :)
here is my first run demo: (recorded in quakespasm 0.85.7, so it should continue playing after I die and quickload...) http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/scampsp1_ericw.dem.zip
This was great fun! Difficult was just right for me on normal. I rarely make it through maps on the first run without dying and almost did here, except I jumped in the void pit. Anyways, nice clean detailing / take on idbase, good layout. I especially liked breaking through the ceiling into areas I'd already been to.
Thanks for the map!
Great map. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I did see some odd texture (mis)alignments. Might just have been because my texture directories are such a mess?