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New Quoth1SP : "Subterranean Library" By Than
I finally got around to finishing apsp3; A map I started way back in late 2005 for the chapters map pack for Quoth. Since it missed the deadline for that pack by 5 or 6 years, it turned into apsp3, languishing on my hard drive for months at a time, before I eventually finished it off.

It's a very large SP map with lots of secrets and plenty of monsters. It requires Quoth (yup, even if you're Daz), an enhanced engine like Fitz or Quakespasm, and yes, it does use the Quoth monsters ;-)

download (4,607kb):
proper mirror:

I'll be playing this ASAP, so review should also be soon. I think I remember some shots of this from a long time ago, and thinking it looked badass. 
Anyone to unfuck the download? 
FFS, How Hard Can It Be 
Under file -> download 
Wow, fucking Google docs does not consider Opera a good browser so the site won't work, those "&(�%"/�%&

File is up at BUT

<Vigil> Spritit: Unfuck than's map please
<negke> Spritit: might have to refuck
<Daz> oh fuck Spritit

suggest that the map should be packaged as


instead so it works with all engines, not only those that support the -quoth switch. With your permission I will strip nude and repack it and update the readme? 
Good things come to those who wait... or as they say. Congrats on the release! Also deep story are usual. 
actually, screw them, the readme is absolutely clear and there is no issue with the packaging itself and Quakespasm and DirectQ support the switch so the Injector is happy too.

/me is nude anyways 
Awesome Map ! 
Yeah, the download link sucks.

However, that map is already a huge classic ! I didn't finished it yet, but it's now part of my permanent collection !

Geez ! What an atmosphere ! This is really a great map ! The decor and the ruins are absolutely superb.

And the earthquakes are funny. Even the Quoth monsters fits very well in that map style.

Really, 5 stars ! Both thumbs up ! 
works in the Quake Injector now. 
Bloody Hell. 
That is one mofoing complicated map. My brain hurts just even trying to think of how it's connected. What it lacks in splendour it makes up for in sheer underground library ambience and excellent rock / destruction / blood details.

I slope-jumped up near the start to the gold key and thought I might have b0rked the map but the whole thing was so damn complex I couldn't tell anyway. The gameplay worked fine even with the stupid Quoth "hitboxes have as much relevance as a castle of turd" monsters (which weren't overused) and seemed well-balanced throughout. Weapon load was useful.

Secrets were excellent enough said. Getting the teleporter under the lift (w/o grenades above) was bloody desperate!!

14/20 (and I thought I was doing well)
222/222 of course

GG THan! 
Lovely Secrets! 
Wow! amazing stuff, I especially like the organic brushwork blended back and forth into brick buildings. It really is a good sign of pro level design when you have plenty of 'show and tell' moments hinting at more to come and where you will go next. The pacing in the first half (up to rune walls) is really well done with plenty of downtime for exploration and I was often wondering when the next encounter was going to take place.

Texture and brushwork was a thing of beauty with tons of broken details and a crazy amount of secrets! I spent ages at the end trying to find them all, only got 19/20, there was a lot of books to push! :P

My favourite encounters was the quad balcony, I always love blowing stuff up when got access to the powerups. There was plenty of locations where the monsters really worked well, ogres setup perfectly for bouncing grenades, hordes of knights and wizards to spice things up.

PS. your google download link is awkward, especially as it really gives very little clues what to click on to download the file. 
Greater Map Than 
I love it.
Nice and interconnected, at times almost (almost!) too much so. It had that "oh I've seen this place before" feeling happening every five minutes or so.

Played on skill 1, killed 200/200. Found 18 secrets, then noclipped around a bit and found the last two. I had been looking at them but not found the way to open.
Oodles of secrets is great I think this is a good map.

I liked the bit with the blood popping up and the place where there are bookcases going up and down and you have to go around the place push button objects.
The book was cute I wish I could read it and go INSANE.
If I have any crits it's that it was pretty gosh darn gray. The blood helped a bit but still some more color would be cool. Maybe in some place have some green bricks?

Oh I remember my actually favourite place now I think it's where the first vore was? You go along this gallery place and down around to the left under it and there's some broken bookcase pillars and one is slanty and you can (spoliers) climb it! That's my fave part.

If you tweet about this I'll gladly retweet!

Oh and it was also nice that eac 
Christ I Forgot 
Btw Sorry I Forgot To Record A Demo 
The timer said I'd played for 92 mins, but I know I reloaded a few times. 
Goddamnit Than 
I had two demos and a bunch of ideas about making skill1 suck less ready to send tonight.

Guess I won't bother next time. 
Will Play Soon, Will Record Demo, Will Jizz 
3 to 12 times.

Will play on skill 2 since skill one evidently sucks total balls. 
Fuck yooooouuu!! 
Second Screenshot 
is awesome. Hope to play this very soon!

Also, what happened to that testing? You posted for that like 8hrs ago! 
cool map, than! thanks for destroying my brain with mad interconnectivity and submerging me into this sinister stygian library ov hell. very nice proper quakey feel there!
also secrets indeed were challenging and fun. nice touch with various text notes :) i won't tell how much i opened though, i'm too weak ;) 
tested the map before my power went out and loved it so much forever. 
91 kills in and this is tough

Serves me right for playing skill 3 :P

This map is really cool. Found a couple of nice secrets. It's like 50% czg and 50% JPL. Shazzow! 
Phew, that was pretty hard!

60 minutes on skill 2, 222 kills, only 13/20 secrets so far.

On completion it's definitely a five star map, though I found my adrenaline levels flagging a bit at times for the first 20-30 minutes. The pace picks up nicely after the first rune and continues to ramp up with each one. I physically flinched on at least two occasions which I imagine is pretty rare for seasoned quake players.

Good work Than. 

Smart map - I still haven't completed it, but I got about 170 kills on the last try. Died suddenly that time. Just after rejoicing I had gotten as far as I had.

In the zip you will find my first three attempts.
Used Fitzquake 5...

Inspirational stuff for sure :) 
Actually Thats BS 
It was Fitz .85 
Now Try This : 
Load the DMSP mod (death match to single player) to add 100 more monsters, and play that map in nightmare skill. This turns the map into a bukkakke-rave party, texan style !

Of course, I'm playing in god mode and use all the weapons with the QuadDammage ON ! LOL

Hehehee ! 
Quake Done Quick ? 
Can someone play that map in the Quake Done Quick way ? Publish your movie ! 
Not Quite Done Yet 
things got really confusing after the first rune so I had to take a break for other things. overall really cool map and consistently fun gameplay thus far.

Also it was nice to see all the limit-breaking messages at startup and realize my current wip (coincidentally also a buried building) has a lot less engine rape. :P 
Thanks For The Comments! 
Sorry for the google drive link. I intended for it to be replaced as soon as possible by someone with Quaddicted upload permission (just Spirit?) Thanks for uploading so quickly, Spirit.

Glad you guys liked the map. Would have sucked if after all this time everyone said "this sucks. Fuck you for wasting my time, FAG!" etc. :)

Glad there haven't been any complaints about ammo levels yet either. Felt like it was a bit on the generous side, but you always get that on your own maps I think. If you don't, it probably means there isn't enough for a first time player.

Barnak: I kind of wish dmsp spawned monsters in the non-dm areas of the map too - that would be cool. Thanks to Negke for the dmsp compatibility tips (that he gave me when he was testing dm7rmx, and I probably ignored because I assumed nobody would bother.)

Fern: The map is pretty kind to the engines apart from the limits I think. Not much crazy high poly stuff going on anywhere. Max r_speeds are probably between 1200 and 1400, with the average being much less. It's also kind on the compilers I guess, since full vis took 6 minutes. dm7rmx, on the other hand, took 19 hours or something. 
Really sorry I asked you to test, then forgot you were testing for me. I just wanted to get the map released quickly. In retrospect it would perhaps have been good to wait a little and get more tester feedback on skill 0 and 1, but I was so obsessed with finishing and releasing it that I completely forgot that I was waiting for your feedback.

Well, my suggestion to tru the DMSP mod isn't working as expected.

Is there a way to use Quoth AND dmsp at the same time ? What is the command line I should use at the start point ? 
Too same, dark and interconnected for me. Died and did not feel like continuing right away. 
Fun Map 
I didn't feel like i had THAT many issues navigating (demo on the way BTW which is probably painful to watch). Like CZG said, almost (almost)!
Ammo felt about right throughout, perhaps even a bit light at times for me. After dying lamely in the demo I'll be sending I explored around and ended up finding 19/20. I did an amazing job of not finding some in the demo, it's pretty ridiculous.

I felt like the somewhat monotone looks worked really well overall.

WHERE THE FUCK IS THE MEGASECRET? I noclipped for 30 mins looking for that thing. 
The megasecret is the legendary photo of than dipping his penis into fizzy peach drink.

sorry for the spoiler 
This Map Is Epic ! 
I played the map several times, with different strategies (and yes, I cheat a lot). I didn't found a single bug !

I discovered half the secrets only (about 11/20).

The hammer secret was fun.

The only aesthetical glitch I've found are the "invisible marks not invisible" on the ground, where some holes are punched after an earthquake event. This is not unique to that map, since I saw this graphical glitch on other maps as well. Probably a Quake/OpenGL issue, I can't tell.

Overall, this is really a great map. A classic. 
Lame Ass Demo 
Than You Are A Sick Unit 
Great map over all. I usually don't like this cramped style but there was enough interesting level design to keep things fun.

40 minute medium skill play, 8/20 secrets

It was an excellent idea to keep half of the rune doors in place when you had collected enough runes to destroy them. That let me know that this was in fact an area I had not been to yet, without that visual guide I would have got very, very lost in this tangled map :)

The layout in general is absolutely sick, more than once I would enter a "new" area and suddenly realise that it was the same area as before :) Blew my mind a few times!

Some things I didn't like so much were the colour scheme of the map, very dull colours and it all looks very similar throughout. I think some more distinct visuals for each sections could have helped with navigation a little, there were a few times where I was a little lost.

I would have liked some larger areas with bigger fights towards the end, but that is my personal preference. The fights you had were good and quite tactical in areas too. Nice use of the shielded hell knights.

Great map, overall I give it 4 bananas out of an ostrich 
Thanks Than 
Excellent as always. 
Better Feedback: 
The stacked / looping layout was very nicely done, as most everyone has mentioned.

Really liked the runic progression, nice to see new things like this.

It's massive, but well planned and with a lot of detail... impressive.

Secrets were fun and fair.

Ambushes were great - getting the most from the monsters. The first Ogre ambush broke my demo; I kept getting stuck on stuff there from staring up at the ogres. Then they dropped on my head. Set the scene for the rest of the map really.

Nice to see a Quadrun as part of progression.

I got lost looking for the GK door. With hindsight this seems dumb, but a couple of signs might have helped. No problem with the SK since its visually near to its door.

The bloodfalls seemed loud, even though they were a useful point of reference. I suspect they suffered from Quake's on/off volume falloff?

Definitely replaying this one a few times. 
Holy Hell 
I cant believe how much you guys just keep upping the ante!

Instant classic, I really have nothing bad to say. Everything was tremendous. 
18/20, I know where one more is (the very obvious recessed wall near the 2nd rune) and no idea where the 20th is.

No, but I uploaded my playthrough 
Hey Spirit,

I watched your video capture. Very nice !

I just noticed that I don't have the blood falls ambiance sound. Is there a command to turn this sound effect ON ?

Also, I don't have the knight's glows when it fires. Is there a command for that FX too ? 
That glow is probably the engine I use (sorry, not public :( ).

No idea about the sounds. 
Don't tell me you played this map without Quoth... 
Great As Always 
Great as always, pro level design.
Thank you! 
Of course, I played the map using Quoth, and Quakespasm, on OS X.

But I don't know why I don't get the blood falls sounds. 
My demo was recorded in RMQ by the way. guess I should move over to quakespasm... 
Not Bad Man :) 
Very interesting map, & looks amazing. 13/20. 200/200
It slowed my system down a bit. 
Giving up the RL for that punk arse secret is a bit rough. Yes - i missed it. %<

My favourite bits: the blood trail in the floor cracks, awesome insanity scroll and the nice use of fog. Looking forward to a replay. 
Watching Spirit Get Lost 
made me feel 100% better about myself 
really? That's crazy talk. 
Amazing Work 
I think all that can be said about this one has already been said in the above posts by the other regulars. No single fault, no dull moment -- simply an atmospheric masterpiece. Maps like these are the very reason that Quake has been (and will always be) the favourite shooter of mine.

(Demo w/ latest QS.exe) - 60:58, 10/20 secrets, 222/222 kills 
quaddicted front should mention this soon, but in the meantime, my review is up here:

For me the one drawback was that I was sometimes confused by the layout (and as I say in the review it might be just me), but the main strength of the map was the detail put into the broken style and how much the map rewarded exploration with secrets. The detail put into things being broken, gave a real sense of an ancient, long-decayed, forgotten-by-the-gods place. Or aka, great atmosphere. 
Yes - It was quite very confusing... just enough to make one feel stupid, but not overly annoying.

The way the doors with (say) one glowing rune on them became detroyables without any markings at all (once the rune was attained) had me scratching my head for ages. 
But imho, it's worth more than 16.5/20!
Visuals 10/10, gameplay 8.5/10, and bonus points for the dynamic envirs, tomes, and all the ace secrets. 
I didnt find it confusing at all, either layout wise or what to do next wise. Thought there was enough placemarkers, hints etc. 
Curiously Enough 
I was doing just fine on my first playthrough, but on the second I got hardcore lost after the third rune. 
Rune Doors 
I thought it was confusing that when you got the rune, the rune door magically turned to rubble and I did not see it! It was confusing because the place was in ruin, so one more pile of rubble does not look out of place. The rune doors should of exploded or turned to rubble infront of the player.

@Tronyn, nice review but IMHO 16.5 out of 20 is rough considering how good this map is compared to others. I can understand getting lost can be a problem but the map is very much exploration (huge number of secrets) and not a linear corridor experience. 
...Is still the gold standard for interconnected-yet-obvious. 
my ratings are pretty inconsistent and subjective as a whole, all I can do is rate it on how much I enjoyed it. If I were trying to do an "objective quality" rating, this should be like 18 or 19 and OMS25 should be like 5. heh. I definitely recognize how much work went into this and was impressed by the detail and secrets, but still, 16.5 reflects how much I enjoyed it.

I've thought of just having a general system but quaddicted already has that with the crap/excellent scale. 
thanks for the nice review. Glad you enjoyed the map.

Personally I tend not to have big navigation troubles in complex maps, but I did get some feedback from the testers regarding getting lost at times. I tried to improve things, but ignored some of Negke's feedback about the broken rune doors, which I probably should have taken on board (instead of his suggestion, I just added a message the first time you break one.)

I also understand the problems some of you guys had with cramped-ness. I have a tendency to do that in my maps. If/when I get on with dm5rmx, I'll try and make sure that doesn't happen - the original is very cramped, and I'd like to avoid that as much as possible.

Will check out demos when I can. My main comp is hosed now for some reason (one of those times where it was working fine when you shut down, then the next day it inexplicably doesn't work properly.) 
Never bothered me - I'm kind of starting to think of it as your thing, but it's not inherently bad by any stretch.
I'd like to think that navigation wasn't a particularly big issue for me, but then again my demo was almost an hour long. I never felt exasperated anyway, and I think a lot of that was dedicated to secret searching. 
Almost An Hour? 
WTF, were you speedrunning it?? ;) 
For Tronyn - I respect your review and the work you do for Quake, but this map deserves at least 18/20, it's a awesome map, huge, but also with a lot of details.

For than: man, you simply rock. This is a very, very cool Quake map, I hope you'll release many more in the future. 
It's Subjective 
Maps don't "deserve" a certain score. 
"Maps don't "deserve" a certain score."

Well, if that's true, then nothing "deserve" a certain score, everything is subjective. I was only trying to say that the map is much better (in my opinion) than a rather average 16.5.

And when I say average I'm not saying that 16.5 is an average score, it's actually a good score, but I'm saying that almost any recent Quake map would get that score. And S. Library is clearly much better than most recent releases, so it should get a higher score. 
In Your Opinion 
Exactly, it's your opinion, a map score is subjective; that doesn't make everything subjective. Not sure why you would think that. 
Objectively Speaking, 
you are both wrong.

It is simply inarguable: Than's map deserves no less and no more than 4 bananas out of an ostrich. 
somebody put up a 100% demo, I'm losing my sanity looking for secret # 20. 
Nobody Is Going To Pay Attention To The Score... 
More people will see the star rating than Tronyn's score and even those who do stumble across the review will probably have seen the rating first. 
Scores Are Gay Mmmkay. 
HTH go map. 
Whilst testing the map, I did a couple of runs to get all secrets and couldn't find the last secret on two occasions. That was even after enabling noclip :/

Maybe I'll put up a demo tomorrow if I get the chance (my pc was screwed up last time I checked though.) 
You Couldn't Find Your Own Secret? 
Red-fish Memory Syndrom 
What than experiment is not so surprising to me actually... replaying some of my maps "long" time after release, I am sometimes unable to find some of the secrets... bah... 
I have a nightmare 100% demo hanging around on my hard-drive, but nowhere to upload it to. 
Thanks OTP 
Nightmare 100% demo: 
Just Realized.... 
.. I didn't play this map yet... Fortunately my computer has been repaired... So more feedback later :) 
Very nice, but you missed the proper way of getting the first secret! (rot13 oruvaq gur fyvctngr
Muito Obrigado! 
Finaly had the proper time to play this, fantastic map...

I think there is nothing more to say that haven't been said!

So I will just say, many thanks for this great hard work, you rock!

this is my first demo, died really early :p 
F@#!ing Computer ! 
Like others said: this is a solid map, very well designed, very nice architecture. I loved the gameplay, and the map ambience, never run out of ammo... I think the map ambience could have been improved by adding customs sounds here and there, but well, it is already top notch...

Good job man !

Nevertheless, I have been able to play the map till I get the first rune only: my computer get frozen (no more mouse, no sounds, nothing... even CtrlAlt+Del worked...) at this level... *sights*
I definitely have to change it, hoping I'll get a chance to recover all the data on my HD. I suspect my GFX to be the root cause of all this mess.... wait.. X-mas is coming soon :D 
Thanks For The Comments 
JPL: I hope your pc starts working again soon. I've had computers freeze for no obvious reason and do bad things only to randomly start working again some time later.

Still haven't got around to recording that 100% run, but thanks for yours, Ionous. Doubt mine would be any better. 
I Like It 
Started playing with just Fitzquake using an old front end called "Quake On". The floor didn't open up in the library. Never quite got that command line thing but I made a short cut of Fitzquake 85 and copied what to put in the command line there in the target and it worked. Is that how you do it? You can also add heapsize that way too,right? I haven't had to do that so far.
I just got the first rune and found 3 secrets. Very cool map 
Very good. Atmospheric.
Here is a skill 1 demo:
Recorded with quakespasm. 
Tried To Do A 100% Demo... 
..but reached the end with 18/20.

I know where all the secrets are, but remembering to get each one is sometimes hard :/ Afterwards I noclipped around to see which I had missed and although I found one of them, I couldn't remember which one was the final one I missed. Oh well. Ion still has the 100% record.

You do get a little message on 100% completion, but it's nothing special.

skill 3 222/222, 18/20, ~27min 
OOOOHHHH SHIT. What an awesome map!

Died a few times, mostly from slipping into death pits but the double shamblers in the blood pumping area was tough.

i got lost a lot... areas were distinct but for some reason, i had trouble remembering how to get to each of them. I really love the cramped mazelike brushwork, even though I got lost. :)

Also, good pacing on monsters. I liked how some areas were empty even mid-way through. 
I Dun Vidyuz

Negke, your name sucks! ;) 
For Crap's Sake Daz 
Get a pencil and write what you want to talk about before recording. I love your vids but every time I hear something like "uh was it DM6 or DM7?" I start thinking "why didn't he JFGI before recording what is obviously a leisurely piece of audio without any pressing deadlines or other need to hurry?" It's like ammo boxes and google both become invisible as soon as you start playing Quake! :P

Also this is the wrong thread. 
Thanks For The Demos And Comments, Guys. 
Daz: your penalty for posting in the wrong thread is a narrated video of apsp3 ;)

I guess cramped is kind of my style. I should try something a bit more open perhaps, because I also tend to find larger, open combats more fun. Not sure why I make things cramped. I think in the case of the rmx maps it's because I'm trying to keep roughly to the original layout and proportions, but I don't know why I do it with my other maps. I have a feeling it's because I have a tendency to make rooms, then design gameplay and layout around the room, which often results in me adding areas into fairly small spaces as I rework the map.

Necros: Glad you liked the map. Seems a few people got a little bit lost. I think I could have done a little more to improve navigation somehow. I added a couple of arrows, but not really enough I suppose. 
Some of the arrows I found lead in a circle. :P
(You can see that in the demos)

I wish there were more cramped maps like this. But not just cramped, but maze-like and asymmetrical. I really enjoyed doom3 for that and I'd really love to see a medieval or metal city map that looks like someone just kept building structures without any planning whatsoever, so there would be odd connections between different areas that are unexpected and illogical and bizarre voids in the center of dense construction. 
I couldn't get your demo to play back. I just got some error about a missing sprite file in the progs :/

What engine did you use to record? I couldn't play it on Fitz or Quakespasm. 
Aww, I was worried about that. I was helping preach test the quoth changes. Try just adding dummy files to satisfy the errors? 
Shit Hot 
one of my favourite maps in recent memory. fantastic atmosphere/sense of place. lovely layout; hugely sprawling but i never got lost. loved the earthquake effects and falling debris

the rockwork was awesome. there were at least a couple of occasions i nearly walked over a tiny ledge into an ominous abyss, kept me on my toes!

finished with all kills on normal but it felt a lot less than 200 due to being nicely spread out. there were still lots of moments i was expecting monsters but didn't get any; added to the tension. took me an hour in total (more counting a couple of reloads)

definitely playing this one again some time :) 
Just Replayed This Because Mfxsp10 
and Than, jesus.
How do you do this? I mean, I've looked at your map files and I know you use visgroups procedurally and I know you have professional experience and everything. But fucking christ.
This map is acknowledged as being excellent, but I'm not sure I really understood what a masterpiece it is until this playthrough. There is SO much going on, but it's so SUBTLE about it!
The layout alone, the lighting and brushwork and gameplay and secrets and even tone and the way you made your own subset of the theme.
I just want to acknowledge it and thank you for it.
Fuck I need to go to bed. 
Whilst I don't think the map really deserves that much praise, I'm glad you liked it.

Now go map a full (i.e. non-speed) map! 
Are You Kidding? 
This map is epic... loved how it becomes more and more ruined as you progress. 
loved how it becomes more and more ruined as you progress.
Incidentally, it's the same sort of development than underwent whilst working on it. 
you are the underselling king
and the king btw. 
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