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New Q1 SP Quoth: Pain In The Arch By Mfx
Features knave texture set, and should provide a decent battle.

1, 2, 3

Don�t want to spoil the party, my speedmapping entry was to late (and lame), but i had this one in the pipe... so well.

Please read the readme, and feedback is welcome, especially first run demos!

Download ZIP file
Leck Mich Im Arch 
Downloading with the speed of light. 
Interesting, But ... 
I'm playing it right now, it looks very well, but i can't get it done without saving, because ammo is too scarce in nightmare, and there isn't good places for monster infighting.

By the way, i don't think this map is dark at all like it says in the readme. 
Aim better, force infights..;)
Darkness depends on your hardware mainly, i.e. on a Retina Display it may look even too bright..
But on older machines, especially Laptops you may have problems playin this in at highnoon. 
Cool ! 
The map looks cool !

However, there's a missing sky in some parts. There are large holes on the cavern's ceiling which should show something. I guess there should be some sky up there. Is this a bug ? 
Actually ... 
... I used all the tricks in the book, if not i wouldn't have said a thing :). The problem with the ammo is only till the drole, if i get past it the problem resolves by itself. Like i said, monster infighting can't be used because that the drole fight is the first one where you can get infighting.

What i did to fix it is throw mself into the hole without fighting the first knight and hell_knight, that saved enough ammo so i didn't have problems later.

Maybe i need to find the secrets to get more ammo ... i haven't found a single one till now, ... or i missed a box of ammo.

I'll post a demo when I complete it, tell me then if i did anything wrong :) 
Interesting, But... 
"Further take notice that playtesting of this map only took place in Fitzquake 0.85, Fitzquake MKV (under windows)
and QuakeSpasm (under OSX)."

Playtesting?? Presumably by people who think that axing Droles is perfectly normal behaviour.

At the start of this map it is evident that the sort of scare-ammo-tight-corridor gameplay that was fine in MFXSP8 does not work so well with enemies that have 5 times the HP and don't drop any ammo. It is too hard to start, and a little bit more ammo / health would have fixed that.

BUT aside from that it's rather cool. The gameplay improves a lot later on, some monster usage (death knight bosses, vores) is very good. The style, though repetitive, is nicely done and harmonious with the amount of ruination (I like the ruined bits in the library), and the interconnectivity is good.
You've certainly mastered this style as well as IdBase :).

BTW it should be obligatory to put a 15HP pack before any essential falling damage falls. 
It uses the void skybox which is shipped with Quoth.
Or not?!? 
And Guys Come On 
nightmare really? Dont try kill them all, try to stay alive!
It�s nightmare!! 
No More Deaths For Me ... For Now 
For now i haven't completed it, but i post a demo for the first half in nightmare.It's the 15th attempt or so :D, sorry it isn't the first one.

I'll probably try it in normal. Apart from Tronyn maps, i always play first in nightmare, but i'm not used to play while making a demo and it makes it harder.

Apart from the issue of the ammo, it's being a very fun map, CONGRATS 
Looks Great 
will play and record demo soon! 
mfx i hate you 
Haven't Completed It... 
I'm pretty certain this is on easy or normal... I recorded 2 demos for you - 
in fitzquake fyi 
A nice level, good ruined details and some nice setpieces. Very reminiscent of Subterranean Library. I like how the layout is interconnected like that. Also very cramped which adds to the theme/setting but was also annoying at times.

I played on hard and the first part was very tough with little ammo and even less health (I could have used that medkit that you let fall out of the map!). Still managed, albeit barely and down to red quite often in the beginning. A bit too much low-health Shambler dancing for my taste as well. Of the 5/6 secrets I found the nails behind the grate (which I found by a complete fluke) in particular and the RA were very helpful.
Good fun when getting the GL and the Quad in the library. Not so much fun with the closed-quarter back spawning.

On a technical note, don't create huge rooms for monster teleports (not that you'd need them in Quoth anyway) - only make them as big as needed, and increase the texture scale to save polys. And why use skip if you don't run the removal tool.
The floor tiles/rock transitions could've been clipped for smoother movement on the already slippery edges (nevermind if they are, they just felt slightly bumpy occasionally). What's with that clip next to the GK?!

Sorry, no demos because I accidentally overwrote the main part. 
Btw. shame about the grey sky parts. Surely, there would've been better ways of dealing with those unfinished parts in a less obvious manner. 
Very Easy Map 
mfx, yes I played it Quakespasm, on OS X. There's a sky box missing (gray parts). I'm pretty sure it's a bug in your map. 
Did A NH To

had to look around for one shy ogre but wasnt goign for fast time anyway, wasnt to hard if you take it easy, i think it was my third go. Didnt fully find out what exactly opens the quad, is it a trigger with a delay? 
can you write me a mail in deutsch,
cause i dont get whaT you are complaing about.
I�m new to this kind of mapping, and always wondered about newskip.
No clue, hope it looks great... 
it�s just the skybox files thats missing from your setup
Look in /quake/quoth/gfx/env/ for void*.tga 
what the fuck?!?
doesn�t count
Orbs, And After Seeing Your 2nd .dem 
Are you me? 
At Last ... 
... I finished the map in nightmare, it took 5 more attempts since the other demo, but it was worthy and satisfying.

Recorded in Quakespasm

The map is very good indeed, great interconnectivity and layout, good gameplay and brushwork, but you need to make the first quarter easier and the last quarter way harder, at least in nightmare. That last part was a piece of cake, i were cautious expecting something very hard, but got 2 very easy fights. I were more thrilled about having to repeat the entire map again than about the fights.

I almost forgot, i found something weird in one of the brushes, in this screenshot. 
some complain its to hard, some say its orbs
i�m getting it, wait for my 3rd release you asses...
To whom, who finishes it on nightmare gets a shoutout on my next one,
released on 23. 5.!!!! demo required..

Nightmare, really? I mean like ...pffff. 
I'm Up To The Challenge 
If you don't make it as hard as Arwop from Tronyn it is doable. 
I haven't understood that last phrase. Are you laughing about someone playing nightmare because you consider it is masochistic or are you doubting about the fact that i completed it in nightmare? 
Im laughing because of Bavaria Munich beating Barca 4:0
nothing more... 
Cocerollo To Be Serious 
After watching your demo, i�m proud of you.
You�ve mastered it in a way i planned it.
That�s that .
(And to everybody who�s reading this, watch his demo, then complain how hard it is...) Orbs doesn�t count for sure..
I�ve to outright admit that you�re the one.
It surely takes a couple of tries. 
Firstrunners Record .dem Please... 
just to make sure, in the future my maps will be a bit more balanced.
Learning by by seeing your mistakes, not planned to make it harder, but
more twisted and fair. 
... and where should I find this /quake/quoth/gfx/env/ for void*.tga file ? It itsn't part of the standard Quoth installation. 
The files are in pak0.pak in the Quoth directory, not sure what's going on with this map as I've not looked at it - but as a stab-in-the-dark could it be a case-sensitivity issue? 
deinflate the paks like pffff... 
Why Isn�t Everybody Else Complaining? 
Barnak, sth. seems to be messed up with your directories... 
you have my first two runs in that .zip file.
I think gameplay needs to be a little more balanced. You should never resort to using an axe (unless it's something fun like axe & quad).

It looks nice though, for some reason the map seems easier in RMQ, I think it defaults to a lower skill setting perhaps? I'll try and complete it tomorrow. 
Doh ! Then why should I deinflate the pack ? The map should find the file in it, after having launched the game. This is the first map I play which have this kind of problem. 
my map says clearly "sky void" all noncaps.

which engine are you running? 
Negke is apparently also having the gray sky box (see the message #15). 
I'm playing with Quakespasm on OS X. 
Hmm..who Cares About Negke? 
No to be honest, in testing this one that problem never occured.
Than shipped his APSP3 with the same "sky void" settings, as i can assure you, having looked at the .map file.
I had no problems with it, nor having them now.
Evil powers are at work maybe?!? 
was testing environment,
dont have a clue for now, going to take a rest.
Dreaming of nightmare maybe solves it... 
Orbs Cheated! I Dreamed Of... 
It Isnt An Alpha Issue Like In Mfx's Last Map Is It? 
in that one without putting the right alpha settings all the glass was grayed out. Maybe something similar?

I will give it a run later tongith to see what I get. 
Yeah I Guess I Get What People Are Talking About 
but I kind of like it just as a grey sky... nothing really wrong with it, I'd say.

Anyways, I recorded a demo, I'll upload soon. played it on fitz mark v since I know you have issues with RMQ. Overall basically what everyone else said, as you'll see in demo. Skill 2, 1 secret, 100% kills... struggled with ammo to start, even trying to be fairly careful because A- read a few comments and B- couldn't get health bar to display in fitz V?

Anyways, good job maintaining pace!
Although I do think you should slow down the pace, just enough to get some more testing. eg the ammo, the sky issues - these things aren't the end of the world, but it's that final polish that takes the map from 'nice' to 'excellent,' you know?

Finally, as I said in the demo - I fully endorse your than/CZG boner! 
but surely it matters whether it was intended or not? 
Authorial Intention 
I imagine mfx probably did intend to have a black void rather than a grey sky, but what does it matter to me if I think results looks good? 
Grey Sky 
Doesn't the shot have the grey sky everyone is mentioning? 
Grey sky is not a problem obviously.

+40 SSG or +50 NG ammo and +50 health near the start would have been fine.

Ending could have been a bit tougher. Spawning monsters near Vermis could have been cool.

Hard to start / easy to finish is a VERY common flaw in otherwise good maps - but it is very easy to fix. This is still a good map....there is only a tiny bit you need to tweak for your next one. I am really impressed by your mapping BTW....both releases. 
You'll make me blush ... 
To Clarify 
Now being serious, most of the times i had to try again your map was because of i couldn't land on the first shell's box, because of the drole and the few typical visits to the botomless pits. So, if i were to save after that i would have done it in 2 or 3 attempts, instead of 20 or so. So, yes, i do consider it as having easy/decent difficulty in nightmare.

Like Shambler said, the map gets easier as time goes. 
I think I come off as being more critical than I actually am about this map in the demo. 
Grey Sky 
It's caused by the fog. Even though, it seems, the visible surface of the sky brushes have the black texture, it's still treated as a transparent sky volume and thus affected by the sky vs. fog behavior in Fitz.

I does look odd, because the map is clearly designed to be caverns deep underground, and in most areas the ceilings are just dark and solid, suggesting rock structure. In the visible sky areas, e.g. in front of the GK door/library, a solid ceiling, however simple, would've been a far better solution even if the ceiling isn't as sophisticated (rock-shaped) as in the other rooms. An 'infinite' ceiling seems somewhat strange and inconsistent here. If it is intentional, the grey effect could've been avoided by placing a black func_illusionary (again, upscaled texture!) over the sky surface. 
Just Commenting 
It was an interesting demo, it's a shame you haven't found more secrets, i was hoping to see them. At least you got one. I got none. Actually, i thought that step you used was an error in the bottom floor so i passed on suiciding for be sure, as i was recording a demo.

I do see why you choose hard difficulty, dancing like you do would be way harder and you seem very proficient at it.

You got me figuring for long how you'd beat the drole when you were wasting so much ammo, even more when you lost the monster infighting possibility of the hell_knight. It was fun.

You had the same idea as me and i suppose the same too for a lot of other people of shooting the flickering lights for secrets.

Why did you used the noclip? It was a fun moment. As fun as thrilling it was when you began dancing with the vores when you had cover enough. The old tactic was boring for you, i suppose.. haha 
The map is very nice, congrats. But the difficulty skill is ... I really can't find the word for this. Dude, I played on easy, I wanted just to take a quick look on the map. I found 3 secrets, that helped me a lot.

But the end... 2 vores, only shells left, ok, no problem, stayed behind the pilar and killed them. 2 more vores... same strategy. Only a few shells left, going forward, knight, shells are gone, axing the knight like crazy, killed him, just a few points on health...

And then another vore????????

Come on, are you serious?????? Did you test this map on EASY? I don't really want to imagine this on nightmare, in fact I don't want to do it.

I said this for other maps: you guys, I know that there are people who love challenges. But I'm not one of them. And there are 4 skills, one of them is named EASY. Guess why?

You made a great map and you TOTALLY ruined it by making it impossible to finish for me (on easy) without cheating on the end. Maybe I'm a very bad player, but I expect that playing on easy I should be able to finish any map without cheats. 
First Run 
Oh, And: 
RMQ engine again. 
If you got to the vores, you can't complain, that's one of the easiest parts of the map, so it should be easy for you, because you completed the harder parts.

Get some demos and look what you did bad. 
Final verdict - first half felt like I was being drip fed resources and din't die by my own fault.

Second half was a lot more fun, the fights seemed more creative, especially the void leap = horde instances.

The end battle lacked punch, definitely.

Layout was good, as were visuals.

No ambient sounds? I missed hearing the classic ambient_suck near the void pits.

To 'fix' the Drole battle I would have stuck some resources just behind it rather than adding more overall - but that's just me.

The shambler fights after that felt a bit meh as well. I suspect the first would have worked better as a fiend or three.

Overall, pretty nice :) 
Re Intention 
Its funny because most of us compalining about this map complain about the ammo situation. Again, I'm wondering about intention and the line between community values and the mappers interests.
It seems a few people were out of ammo (but just) by the encounter with the drole, and that like me they had to dive into that knight infested hallway, get a few minor scrapes, and then draw the knights out into a communal infight with the drole. Despite whining about it, it was actually a pretty nice moment of gameplay.
Was it intentional? Like a lot of func dudes I'm not a big fan of forcing the player to use the axe (discounting orbs recent speedmap, that one by negke etc - where that's the whole point)...

I don't know. I have shit to do but that thought occurred to me, so I thought I should excrete it... 
I liked that bit as well. I think it was just the continued lack of resources afterwards that bugged me.

Even so I nearly survived, just got stuck on the edge of a doorway and zapped.

When I mentioned having resources visible behind the Drole it was to make it more obvious that the do or die approach was required.

There's players who wouldn't bat an eyelid at axing a Drole or five to death, which is probably where the misconception comes from. 
Retreating Vs Outrunning 
I was out of ammo for the drole as well, retreated to find some nails, then tried to axe the hell knight with 7 health and died. Upon reloading, I ran straight for the ammo boxes at the end of the hall and took care of the remaining enemies with no problem.

Players usually choose a defensive approach rather than rushing in (and past the enemies in their way) to get the items. This has to be taken into consideration when designing combat, and it's easily forgotten since the author may too readily expect the players to play the map like he intended them to or would himself. I'd say it's a fine line between daring the player to approach into unknown territory for the sake of resupplying and 'locking him out' of areas with a seemingly excessive risk. A lack of health/medkits like in this map further supports a defensive play style. 
Negke Is Right 
considering all of your complaints for my next release.
A single box of shells more? No!
Go for it, or go home.
Nevermind thanks for your feedback,
and .dems are helpfull, even now!! 
Locking the way back until the drole is dead would work as well.

Reminds me of a game I made where score recharged your health, and performing combos got you more score. The Idea was to make the player be aggressive and play excitingly. 
In sm169_jackfapoff, there is a good example of the defensive tendency being used strategically by the author. There is the one gold key tower with a bunch of shamblers - rushing in and getting the key would be easiest, but the natural response is to backtrack, and then they converge on it, forcing you to kind of confront it... 
I backed away there as well, since the chance of those big fat 64 unit bbox's trapping you inside and mauling you to death is 100%.

Really needed a step down on that bit...

When challenging the normal gameplay convention of 'back off, snipe enemies' you have to do it in a very careful way. Look at In the Shadows and all the thought that Sock put into making sure people could understand the stealth game play.

If he hadn't it'd have fallen flat on its face.

Anyway, this is all theoretical.

Spending an extra 30 seconds thinking about what game play you want to achieve in each little encounter usually solves everything though, at least in regular mapping. 
If You Are Planning Of Making A V2 
I have found this for you:

And, if you go into where the first death lord appers, and look to the other side of the chasm, deep down, even lower than the trigger_hurt, you can see something that looks like a grey door frame on the rock.

By the way, I have played the map in normal, and it's good, i don't think it needs more monsters, ammo or health, i do even think that you could transform some of the big ammo boxes after the silver key into their normal counterpart.

If you accept suggestions, not that i expect you to follow them, it's your map after all, i have some that i do think could spice the level and make it more thrilling after the silver door in terms of combats. But only in nightmare or maybe on hard.

- Move the monsters behind the corners some units back so the player can't get on them a free shot before they see you.

- If the player knows that there is a possibility of an ambush he'll be cautious and ambush from above from vorelings won't work, even more if you did it before. Maybe adding into these situations another monster on the same floor as the player to lure him and make him less aware of it's surroundings.

- Adding some monsters that flank you, on the sides or in the back/front after the third shambler dies (some appearing through the silver door could be cool), when you get the gold key some flying polyps or scrags on opposite sides with silent teleport except one of them that lures the player; or 2 scrags or death guards, or 1 vore on the arch, when you open the gold door; or maybe a vore or a drole behind the second pillar in the library, and maybe restrict the movements of the ogres so you can't snipe them. After that, a monster that lures you into the vorelings could be good, but i don't have any ideas.

- In some of the bottomless pits, make an ambush with a scrag or voreling for those that approach the border carelessly, just in 1 or 2 or the pits is OK, to make people more cautious, not to kill them.

- In the library, when you push the buttons, put a knight or doom guard on the same level as you so the player can't hide from the monsters in the pillars all the time and is forced to move, at least a bit.

- For the final fight, one less box of ammo of each type maybe. And putting less cover or adding monsters that come for you could be good. Maybe, if you holed the part behind the player, you could put scrags or polips in a high place, so they cannot hit the boss, is the only way i have thought that could spice the fight and not force monster-infightings.

Like i said this would be too much for normal and easy, but maybe it can be used in less quantity.

What do you think about this? 
Didnt Find It As Hard As Others (played On Normal) 
pretty good designs, although needs more polishing/playtesting (I also noticed door like things in the pits as Cocerello mentions above and jumped down thinking they were secrets). Still, you have some very nice visual ideas and the execution is pretty good.

Gameplay wise, also not bad but it gets repeptitive with the knights behind the wall/around the corner method.

Overall, very enjoyable map but playtesting/polishing these up a little more will make them great ones. 
Played It 
On Skill 1. Apparently I suck at Quake, because I died at the 3rd Shambler. Was a lot of fun though, and I'll try it again.

Only thing I'd complain about is the lighting, which looks a bit inconsistent (unlit light fixtures etc). Maybe you should spend a little more time tweaking such things. 
Thanks To All 
who�ve send me demos, it was very kind of you letting me see how you


Long i have thought of your suggestions, and no
i�m not going to make a 2nd version of this map.
(Although i�m playing with the idea of building a A4(V2))

reasons are:

when reacting to everybodys claims, i should�ve sent a playtesting version to all of you...which doesn�t make sense, cause i want to surprise you with my stuff.

nothing else.

So much people moaning, means so much people caring, which is good btw. i think.
Your suggestions for improving gameplay are not totally new to me, actually i�ve played with some of them in this map.

Spawning monsters in the lib right after the button touched,i think it�s
a bit too hard..;)
Original layout had that feature btw.

Pushing some enemies further behind the corners i also did(regarding original layout), but somewhen the walls came in.

That lighting flaws are my fault, was hurrying and hungry.

To make this absolutely clear, i didn�t want to fuck you off with my earlier reactions(all of you regarding), i was terribly under the influence of some society acclaimed drug, my bad.

Nevertheless, that theme of this map was developed a long time ago, and though i�m a big fan (not to say the greatest) of THAN, it wasn�t meant to be a ripoff .

Now i go map again on that E3M1RMX, i care because you do... 
And If You Really Want To 
make changes, the .map file is included, so teach me the better! 
<Qoute>On Skill 1. Apparently I suck at Quake, because I died at the 3rd Shambler. Was a lot of fun though, and I'll try it again. </qoute>

Mfx, pay attention to this!

The player never fails.

You need to think of the game play narrative a little bit more. "After they shot this grunt this thing happens, they turn round and then they get surprised because this mad shit happens on their left..." 
you dont need to send it to everyone for playtesting, just 3 or 4 people. And then listen to and consider their feedback. Taek time during betatesting and dont rush the release.

You have made two very good maps but with a bit more testing, they could go to that next level. 
I watched the demo, and sleepwalker made it it the shambler an easy game to kill him. Not that SW sucks in playing quake, which i heavily doubted, but in dealing with that situation.

The player never fails, sometimes he just dies earlier...

Whats that quote from btw? 
I�ve tested this map on two fellow friends from the still not dead doom and quake community over here.
I sat next to them, sniping over their shoulder while they played my many beta versions( and i was silent).
they had no problems in pushing this map to be released.
I really don�t know what to do. 
sorry perhaps I didnt explain properly.

I was suggesting getting other mappers to test, like negke or ijed or others. They would give useful advice not just on gameplay but also technical stuff about mapping.

Maybe your friends already do both those things but the people on this forum really know what they are doing. 
i�m not that guru, i just wanna make the good looks;)
And yes, sometimes i really dont know what i�m doing, as negke mentioned with that newskip stuff..
Learning by doing, or sth worse than that i think.. 
You'd Still Be Learning By Doing 
if you got master-mappers to beta test. 
Yeah That Shambler 
It's true, I failed there, and it was easy on my second play. Somehow when I record a demo I play differently.

MFX, I have the (missing?) gray sky on QuakeSpasm 0.85.9 on OS X: 
No problem. I understand. 
The Sky 
as negke says its the fog/skybox interaction. 
People aren't moaning, they are criticising -as well as praising many aspects of the map.

Speaking for myself, I have hugely impressed with your two released maps. You have obviously put a lot of time and patience into developing your mapping skills and releasing maps only when they are good enough. It's really cool to have a new mapper appear "out of nowhere" with stuff this good.

And that is WHY I criticised a couple of things about this map, because this map is close to being really great (same with SP8 too), and with a few tweaks to your balancing you could be releasing great maps each time. If your mapping wasn't good, I'd just call it bollox and not comment further.

I presume most people on here are the same - they care about getting good maps out of any mapper, they see the good stuff you've done in these maps, and think a little bit of tweaking and your maps will be spot on. 
Your maps ARE awesome, but there are couple of academic things that we could have probably helped you avoid, such as the missing faces,and the fog/sky bug. And just a few simple gameplay tricks, such as guiding the player to resources when they are scarce. Minor things though really, but nonetheless could have been avoided.... 
We just want your stuff to be even better :)

You're pretty close to having excellence, just a few rough edges to improve, like Shamb and Ricky say.

Can't remember where I stole that qoute from. Got lots of them that get invented while developing stuff.

My favorite: the definition of complex is lots of simple. 
I don't even understand what that means: "The definition of complex is lots of simple."

Lots of simple doesn't necessarily yield complexity. Complex things cannot always be separated in many simple parts (inherent complexity). 
Also I am sometimes rather critical of the Valve mindset of "the player must be led" and "the player must not die". Quake has quicksaving. Quake is also "oldschool". I think that while not dying on one's first playthrough is overrated and would not be considered so important if engines would just fucking support demos over reloads properly... 
and I think a reason for that mindset lies in "cinematic" games where there is nothing to explore but how to spent your time when a scripted sequence bores you again. if it is fun to replay from the last savegame and if the player can save when he wants, then make the player die with no remorse! 
It's about dev pipeline in code, art and design - whenever someone is trying to get a complex feature built typically it's dependencies are simple enough individually.

For me it's more an idea that the player should feel like it's their own fault when they die, not like the mapper or game cheated them.

Of course, if the player does something stupid then kill the silly fucker in the most gruesome way you can!

I work a lot on casual games and there's a general opinion in the higher echelons that casual means not dying. I point to games like TrailsHD or Temple Run and they get confused and start mixing terms 'Ah, but those are hardcore-casual' which is probably the most null sentence I've ever heard when talking about games. 
Has A Lot Of Bugs 
1) Some secrets are ridiculously hidden. Like that "another secret" in the beginning, or the rectangular wall stone in the ceiling which opens a door if you shoot it.

2) I came across several places in the terrain where you can't climb small steps; you need to jump over them. I thing the map has problem with polygons within the structure.

3) At the very end of the game, before that final boss crawls out, if you jump down to that door-like black shadow at the bottom of the cliff you finish the game before you fall enough to die.

Anyway, it was a good game. I didn't like the amount of popping up monsters in so narrow places, but still I liked it in overall.

Good work. Thank you. 
Even Better 
Looks like you got a hold of knave theme too. High interconnectivity, subtle atmosphere and pretty balanced gameplay.

Keep up the good work!

QuakeSpasm 0.85.9
skill 2; 19:09, 4/5 secrets, 91/91 kills
FWIW I Just Played This Too... 
I was forewarned about difficulty/ammo by the rest of the thread so I played on skill 1 instead of 2, and the pacing of ammo (and armor) was a little tight but worked out fine. Actually I appreciated not having to leave ammo boxes behind. :-) I'm not downplaying any other criticism of that stuff, just saying that it happened to work out in my case. It probably would not have, if I had played skill 2... I'd guess that's one of the trickier things to make everyone happy about.

Mostly I just enjoyed the sense of exploring and opening up an interesting & spooky space. That's one of the main things I like to get out of a Quake map.

I didn't find any secrets in the normal course of play.

There was some good fight choreography in there. A few ambushes, some alternating between hallway scrums and open-air combat, a chance to hop across platforms and pillars while spooting grenades... that'll do me, I'm a man of simple tastes really. I'm not a fan of most "big ammo-sink bossmonster" final fights in Quake maps, but eh whatever.

Keep it up! Sorry for no firstplay demo. I had told myself I needed to start doing that and then I forgot again. 
Tried Skill 2. 
Started recording demo, but fell into 1st void (the lighted opening seemed the intended path, looking from button room).

Ragequit at 3rd attempt against drole with axe.

Sorry, not for me, won't bother finishing. 
@the Silent 
thats a pity, you missed some really enjoyable brushwork ;) 
Yeah, True. 
Suppose I'll give easy a shot. 
Did Do. 
Skill 1, tbh... 30 something minutes, all kills, 1 secret.

Very nice brushwork (clearly inspired by CZG catacombs map) and interconnectivity, some odd texture choices (the blue arch continuing on the angled walls... ugh!), very challenging and non skill-realistic gameplay with a rather anticlimaxing boss battle.

The Blue Key Hole should have been visibly blocked, I tried to get the key and jump back to the first shells cache (that I had missed) but got stuck with the knights pummeling me. No point in making the hole just slightly smaller than the player BB other than generate frustration...

Ammo was always barely enough, suppose it's nearly unplayable on Nightmare. Still, some situations are easily dead ends if you don't know the map beforehand, given the cramped architecture and abundance of instadeath pits.

I'd say some advice from the masters would easily have made this a very good map, as it is, it's still missing things.

But, you were right, it had to be played... 
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