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New Q1SP: Midnight Stalker
Download Link and screenshot. Alternative Version download link for play in vanilla GL engines.

A small midnight snack with a skill selection area at the beginning, some traps and a couple of secrets to keep you wandering around in circles.

The map was inspired by the architecture of E3M6 and features medieval style pickups, some new keys and a couple of powerup models. The textures are mostly from ID and the gameplay is vanilla Quake!

The map was tested with Fitz or MarkV engines and remember to RECORD A DEMO, I want to see how you play the map!
Wil Try 
after dinner :) 
Demo 
I Broke It! 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/103186490/scamp_mstalk.zip

So I found a way to get trapped... I used the magic of noclip to get out though. I think you open a shortcut teleporter a little too early, and I stumbled into it.

played on normal, 100% of kills, 7/10 secrets.


I really enjoyed the gameplay, especially the end battle. And there was a lot of great humor. The architecture and looks was of course amazing as well!

Great map sock! 
Demos 
Since you made it an "episode" with the skil selection thing, but within the same map you would need to decompile the demos to watch them,correct me if im wrong 
Oh 
i didn't break it... on second viewing, I found your 'testing only' button due to little fullbright jaggies I could see in Quakespasm 
But Anyway 
played on easy finished first try with one kil missing 7/10 secrets in 10 minutes and a little. Then i looked around for a route to run, but you closed down most shortcuts. It looks like a interconnected map with some route options but actualy its pretty linear. The second blue key opens a door 2 pixels away.i found a couple of traps to kil monsters (vore and shambler and later the spikes for final battle), but the first two already killed when i found them and it wasnt under pressure at all then, so that imo kinda made them unescesary, maybe no harder skill theyare more "needed". The spikes were complete usulesssince th efight waseasy, you got plenty of ammo for weapons wich do a lot mroe damage then the spikes with low RoF. having said that i geuss ishoudl try nightmare and judge again. 
Demo 
Casual play at normal skill, recorded using quakespasm-0.85.9 on Linux: http://quakespasm.sf.net/tmp/qs1.dem.7z 
 
Scampie, that button was for testing the end battle only. When I watched your demo I could not understand how you saw it! I never did any testing with qs which why it is visible. It is real shame you carried on, the shambler/lift seq is a lot of fun done the right way round.
otp, nice demo, your final battle was epic. 
Nightmare 
was slightly challenging but i still didnt find the traps realy usefull 100/101 6/10. I geuss one monster is in a secret, did you decompile scampies demo, or is there another way to view it? 
Since I Missed It 
Here's a hard mode demo! (and easy mode! watch that last)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/103186490/scamp_mstalker_hard.zip 
Great ! 
Very great map.

But what's wrong with OpenGL ? The large pixels on textures are so ugly ! The rendering sucks ! 
 
I didn't mention it before, but one of the things I like in this map is the way you give the illusion of new textures by using bits and pieces of larger ones. for example, in your screenshot, you make a 16 inch wide bright blue trim out of the 64x64 square ceiling texture.

It's something I see a lot in Doom maps and I love seeing it in Quake. 
Why ... 
doesnt anyone answer my question? If i watch back anyof the posted demos (or my own) i can only watch it until the porter after the skil selection, and then its finished, the onyl way i knwo to treat this is to use decompile to split up the demo in different parts (like how its done with marathon demos). Obviously non of you are doing this nor complaining that you cant watch them, so i must be missing out on something 
Feedback 
@Orbs, Sorry for your frustration with the demo's, but they work perfectly with the Mark V engine. You can pause, rewind and fast forward easily. The Mark V engine allows you to record at anytime, I am not sure why you would use anything else!

@necros, I had no choice because one of the big restrictions for the map is, no new textures so I had to get inventive with existing one's.

@Barnak, the gl texturemode is being set with the quake.rc file inside of the pak file. Extract the pak file and edit the quake.rc file. I assumed everyone would want to view the old way, personally I find opengl blurry and it makes the game look worse. :/

@Scampie, like your hard demo, easy was funny! :) The YA is just a jump, no button, no trick, no rocket jump. I usually make all my secrets button operated but Than said I should do other types, so this is why there are "hop skip jump" secrets! 
Thx 
was stil using old fitz. 
Am I Right That... 
you can't get 10/10 secrets since the first one is in the start part? 
 
@Orbs, the 10 secrets are all in the main map, the bit at the start is no secret, it was just something I did for fun. Like the traps to kill the monsters, they are just for fun, nothing essential. 
With The Gl_texturemode 
just put gl_texturemode "GL_LINEAR_MIPMAP_LINEAR" in your autoexec.cfg if you want it the other way.

sock, I know you prefer it the pixelly way but I dont think this is a setting that should be forced on the user.

Anyway, just finished playing it, twice in fact because its actually a pretty perfect map. I love all the various bits of cool brushwork (doorways, ceiling, the grate/fence things etc) and the smooth texturing but the gameplay in this map is seriously well thought out. I initially thought monster AI must have been tweaked because I was having a lot more trouble than usual but it's just down to clever placement if no AI tweaks were done. Got 83/84 kills and 6/10 secrets (which is very high for me).

Possibly my favorite release of the year so far, makes me itch to play your stealth mod but I know I need more than 20 min to play through that so it will have to be put aside for now. 
Oops 
just assumed it was one :P 
Sorry 
just one thing, I didnt really like the new health and ammo models, just didnt look right to me, not sure what was off but I they felt a bit cartoony maybe. 
Easy Run 
didnt find all secrets yet ( i think i found 7) and didnt care enough to look hard for them + i tought this was a funny route:
http://members.upc.nl/verorber/mstalk_er.rar 
One More Thing 
For casual play i kinda didnt like the fact that you first get red armour then need to waste it if you want to get the (2nd) lightninggun, but maybe i missed another secret there 
GL Rendering 
@nitin, thanks for the GL tip. It's working.

@sock, yes the GL rendering is blurry, but I think it's good anyway. You should give the user a choice, since we can usually set the rendering style in the preferences settings. 
Excellent Map 
demo: http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/mstalk_than_sk2.7z

I first tried nightmare but found it a bit hard, and after a couple of false starts, got a nice run going...

...until I tried to be clever by backing away from a button quickly after pressing it and getting squished :(

I continued up until the end and died once in the final battle (not the shamblers before that though!) because I was being very careless, then managed to finish with no problems.

7/10 100/101 (grr). Didn't check the time, but I think it was about 20-30 minutes.

Challenging gameplay that never felt unfair, nice secrets that are fun to search for (you often see a clue and know there is a button nearby) and really fantastic visuals throughout.

RE: the yellow armour - I got it the first time in my demo, then failed a bunch of times after getting squished by the lift door afterwards. Seems you just need to either jump perfectly at the edge or do a strafe jump to get a bit more distance. 
Demo And Some Quick Thoughts 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/mstalk_drew.zip

Recorded in Mark V, will record more demos in this from now on - have had serious slowdown issues with MV in the past for some reason which put me off it, but seems to work great now...

anyways...

As everyone (-Orbs for some reason) says, fucking amazing map. Good job, thank you. Great gameplay set ups, great architecture, great atmosphere.
One thing to point out -- usually in your maps, or maps by other great mappers, the architecture is done in a way that I can't comprehend. In this map its all very comprehensible, so to speak. I feel like I could construct the details in each room. And yet, of course, more than the sum of its parts. Nice to see.
I think I might have gotten stuck near the LG - not sure exactly what happened there, have a look in the demo.
Than - haven't watched your demo, but I think I did the same thing with the backfiring cleverness...
re GA - I need to work on my skills there. tough jump.


Now to go back and replay! 
Drew 
indeed i dont find it a fucking amazing map and the some reasons are:

-not realy something wich was a whole new experience
-doesnt push the boundarys of what we have seen mapped before
-i think some things are balanced a bit odd(like i mentioned having to abuse the RA with penta to get something out of the lava & the not so usefull traps)

However I found it a fun map and i'm certain i played it longer then anyone in this thread (except sock's playtesting maybe) i did a easy clearance a nightmare and a easy run

besides that i was just giving some feedback on gameplay issues,i leave the commentary about architecture, looks etc to the ones who have more intrest in such things.

Btw i got swim-stuck on a silly corner in the lava near Lg on my first run aswell but i had penta and rl and got myself loose pretty easy 
Yeah 
not putting you down or anything. Just surprised, I guess... 
Great Map 
a bit unfair though when the 3 shamblers popping up

my demo is broken after skill selection 
Nice 
nice oldskool map with plenty of action and nice final battle.
demo http://vondur.net/files/vstalk.7z 
 
<TombRaidbler> errrr
<TombRaidbler> sock's map
<TombRaidbler> it is overriding the fitzquake resolution in fitz085??
<TombRaidbler> can't change it in the ingame menu...
<Spritit> dumbler
<TombRaidbler> okay so how do i fix it?
<TombRaidbler> adding commands to the shortcut nor auto-exec don't work
<TombRaidbler> meh
<TombRaidbler> gotta bind keys right?
<Spritit> bind +mouse 1 "kill"
<TombRaidbler> ha fucking ha
<TombRaidbler> how do i override whatever sock has done and set the width and height
<TombRaidbler> just bound keys to it, it doesn't work
<@Vondur> TombRaidbler, same
<TombRaidbler> ummm
<@Vondur> i played it iwth socks settings
<@Vondur> too lazy to fuck with all settings
<TombRaidbler> the gl_linear mip map thing works
<TombRaidbler> memmmmhpogohopg
<TombRaidbler> negke you are good at breaking quake, tell me how to just set the damn width and height??
<@negke> scr_menuscale
<TombRaidbler> negke it's the game not the menu
<@negke> options->change resolution
<TombRaidbler> <TombRaidbler> can't change it in the ingame menu...
<Spritit> -height 1680 -width 1050 then
<TombRaidbler> spirit i hate you
<Spritit> roulf!
<@negke> TombRaidbler: there's nothing about the resolution in the map
* TombRaidbler goes to play tombraider or hots then, fuck you all
<@negke> ergo: you suck
<@Vigil> sigh
<@Vigil> Shambler
<@Vigil> while in Quake, bring up the console
<@Vigil> type quit
<@Vigil> go to your Quake folder
<@Vigil> delete its contents
<@Vigil> blow up your computer
<TombRaidbler> negke it is the resolution.....the hud bar is oversized too
<TombRaidbler> vigil, at last, a sensible suggestion
<@Vigil> move to a cave and contemplate the futility of your existence for the rest of your days
<@Vigil> you're
<@Vigil> fucking
<@Vigil> welcome 
 
Don't like the item models in stock Quake.

Great looking environment, I love how you used the blue textures.

I expected the skill selector start area to be a map so I restarted recording after it. Could have captured for Youtube easily otherwise. Bleh.

Excellent fun! Also only got 100/101 monsters on hard. 
 
Why you would willing post a testimonial of your incompetence is beyond me. A quick glance at the quake.rc tells you that scr_menuscale and scr_sbarscale are changed. Set them back to 1 and everything's back to normal. Having said that, I also disagree these things should be forced on the player for a simple map.

It also amazes me that, even after all those years, you people are still oblivous to the demo recording issues involving level changes and restarting. Luckily, at least FQ Mark5 seems to fix playback on the fly. 
Sock 
Congrats on the release. A very fine little map.

Shame you didn't wait for me to fix the limits issues, though. It's quite possible and, as it turns out, not even very difficult. Will message you in a bit. 
:) 
lol at the people who had resolution and size issues, its actualy quite close to the standards i use (however i geuss overwrite some with my commandline like for instance -windowed) 
 
I just used an engine that did not support those cvars :P

Quaketastic seems kaputt. 
 
@Barnak, sorry for the hassle, I assumed everyone here wanted oldschool look and feel.

@Than, thanks for the demo, it is a shame I did not get to see the final battle. Not sure why you tried to pull back from the button in the lift. I wanted the player to go down to the next battle. It must be some quake mentality after so many user made maps that torture players with traps.

@Drew, I am glad you recorded with MarkV, it worked perfectly. You are the only one to get the Shalrath crusher first go, you are certainly the player type this map is aimed at. Thinking about encounters, exploring the environment, not quick to kill everything. I really wish I saw your play the last battle.

@Spirit, it seems the medieval pickups are not popular, not sure how the original boxes are any better.

@Vondur, thanks for the demo, was fun to watch. The final battle looked good and you used the teleporter/traps perfectly. :)

@Shambler, IRC blah blah ... you should go and find the secret I made for you in the map!

@negke, I waited for an email but got no reply, so I decided to post the map so everyone can play it over the weekend. Looking forward to seeing what you can do with the optimization. :) 
I Got Squished Also 
...backing away from a button. I think it's almost instinctive for a long time Quake player to try to avoid possible ambushes going up or down elevators.

I got about halfway through last night and it's been pretty fun so far. Three secrets so far, and I can see where the Lightning gun is. At one point I was down to 52 armor and 1 health. Didn't notice the first two monster crushers until too late, but I'll be watching for more as I progress.

As far as the graphics settings, I didn't mind at all for this one map but I'm not going to switch from regular GL anytime soon. The new items were okay but a little hard to see.

Good map overall, Thanks. 
 
Why didn't you see the last battle? The spawn arena with shooters? Or the hidden monster? 
Re Squishy. 
Probably better to just trap as approaching button, I'd say. 
@sock 
Blah blah pixels blah blah oversized menu fonts blah 1996 blah blah!

Negke was right in the end, I played it, it was fun, despite not getting the triple shambler lift thing the first time around. I like the style, could be straight out of Id, in a good way. 7/10 secrets tho, didn't find a smabler one. 
WoW ... And First-play Demo 
A very surprising map. I was expecting the typical eye-candy map, but got and old-school map, with doses of humour, with original gameplay, layout and brushwork features, and above all of that, FUN. I love the new models for ammo and health.

The gameplay flow and some parts have some issues but it's good.

The final fight was interesting, but for me, easier than the combats before that, maybe, as you'll see in my demo, i was out of health because of a bad jump and some not so smart decisions.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/mstalk_night_coce.7z

Recorded in Quakespasm, hard difficulty.

Now i have to play it again without the pressure of the demo. :) 
You Made This In 2 Weeks? 
shit. 
My Demo 
The weird behaviour you can see in it was because i took too seriously the advices in the readme, and played twice as thrilled and cautious as usual. 
Cheapway 
was planning to do a nightmare 100% but only found 9/10 secrets so ended up doing the cheap way :)

members.upc.nl/verorber/mstalk_cheap.rar 
Regarding Compatibility 
Can I play this map using gl-fuh-quake or dark places? 
 
Hard Run
end fight was much more satisfying this time. ^_^ 
 
 
 
@drew, your demo stopped when you got squished by the lift gate. :( After how you dealt with the rest of the level I was looking forward to your final battle with the rune. Yes the map took two weeks, it was mostly brushwork doodles for the first week, the game play layout was designed in the second week.

@Shambler, there is a special shambler stash to find!

@Rick, thinking about it I did not really need the squish bars for the first lift, the second one yes because it is a one way direction. I will bear this in mind for future quake maps.

@Cocerello, thanks for the demo, it was awesome to watch. It was a shame about the lava jump, but it made it more exciting to watch you dodge every bullet afterwards. It is cool to herd the monsters into the middle of the final room, you can then just pick them off with the traps and infighting.

@Orbs, your demo link is broken.
@szo, your demo link will not work with my browser.

I do have a new version which negke has optimized for vanilla engines. Once I test it then I will release it. 
Next Time 
Put again the crosshair on. It changed the gameplay a lot and added to the challenge. At first it annoyed me and made it more difficult to aim, but after that i could just ignore it for most time (the misses with the three shamblers where the crosshair fault).

I am pleased that you are pleased with my demo. Thanks. 
Oh Forgot 
this forum wants the http bit in front

http://members.upc.nl/verorber/mstalk_cheap.rar 
Nice Map 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/rickymstalk.zip

(FitzV)

There was this one part that seemed disproportionately hard.

Other than that I loved it! 
Damn That 10th Secret 
went through the whole map once more but stil cant find the last one i found: (kind of in order of playing)

Ssg
GA
Spikes
Rl
ammo & health
RA
penta
cells and rockets
yellow armor

any clues? 
The Holey Room ... 
@Orbs, the quad! ;) Where would you most likely need a quad? :P 
Darn 
i actualy shot the wall its behind, but didnt spot the button :) 
Bightmare 100% 
members.upc.nl/verorber/mstalk_643.rar 
Http... 
http://members.upc.nl/verorber/mstalk_643.rar

some people never learn,thats my kin 
Awesome Map... 
I have also recorded my, technically second, playthrough (I died on my first play right at the very beginning because I was cornered by some knights). But after the initial first knight encounter everything you see is my first run.

My demo file is here -

http://depositfiles.com/files/5p14ndssb 
It Was 
recorded in Fitzquake mark V btw, so it should be fine in that. 
 
@fifth, I have got no idea how to download that link, it is all in Spanish and I cannot see any obvious download button. :/

Extra version

Could an admin please add another link to the top of this thread (no title change please), I have another version for people who want to play the map with a 100% vanilla engine!

Version 1d <--- New link

This does not replace version 1c (at the top) but is an alternative version for anyone who does not want any config changes, no medieval pickups and the map running on a GL engine.

All of this conversion process (version 1d) was done by negke, amazing work, thank you. :) 
Try This Instead... 
Sock 
done. 
FifthElephant's Link 
I don't see anything weird. Are you talking about the depositfiles one? The only thing in spanish that i can see is an ad for a game, that shows up after you click on regular download. Close it and the other that shows in the same page as the depositfiles web, wait 60 secs, answer the captcha and download. The usual thing with all this ''free'' server services you can see on the net nowadays. 
Things To Note 
I really love the medieval items, they're nice. Maybe they could be improved a little in terms of visibility with the addition of full-brights?
The map had very little in the way of ambient sounds, it could have improved atmosphere a lot to add some.
I liked the subtle coloured lighting, definitely helped to compliment the limited texture set. I also really loved the brushwork, it was very classic quake but also very detailed.
I noticed that if you have a sloped surface just above slime/lava/water that you tend to stick to it, a good amount of head clearance solves this (noticed on a few peoples demos that they got stuck trying to get the LG)
At the end I felt like the map wasnt over even when the exit appeared due to the inaccessible doors... seemed weird to me.
Really enjoyed the map, one of the best this year. 
Huh 
sorry Sock (and Negke, I guess?), thought it kept going in Mark V. I`lltry to find some time to record a demo of a 2nd play for you some time soonish. 
 
I was under the impression the latest version of Mark5 or QS allowed recording and/or playback of demos recorded across level changes and deaths/restarts. Maybe not?

In case of doubt, always start a new recording after such transitions - the trick where you record a new demo to the console and then reload. If you decide to do a demo, make sure to do it properly.
Ideally, this would also include setting the appropriate protocol (15 if possible), but it's easy to forget. Protocol 15 demos where post restart/levelchange footage is omitted can sometimes be fixed by merging them with another demo in convdem, but this doesn't work with other protocols for the lack of support.

As for the lava clipping, I guess I could have fixed that in the new version. The problem is that there's a submerged ledge on the entire back wall, not just the visible bit with the LG, so the engine boosts the player out of the lava who then easily slided to the low ceiling bit and gets stuck. I suppose small stairs, possibly even clip-textured, would have solved or at least alleviated this behavior. 
Mstalk1d 
By the way, to avoid confusion, the 1d version also works in software engines of course. It fixes the excessive models and edicts so the map stays within vanilla limits. 
Quick Question 
If I record my demo under the latest QuakeSpasm, will it be possible for sock to watch it using Fitz or MarkV? 
Yes 
They all support (and default to) protocol 666. 
Thanks 
Good to hear that. Will play this in a few days then. 
 
@Orbs, wow that nightmare demo is just amazing! The telefragging of monsters is awesome stuff, i never thought of that. I like how you do all the shortcut stuff, get SSG/NG early, drop down for GL and have fun with the Quad. Perfect demo! :)

@Ricky, I can understand how you think the triple shamblers is hard but the encounter is about producing fear with the player. You are on a lift going down towards overwhelming odds, why would you jump down? The idea is either use the secret, pick them off from the lift or jump down when there is only one left. That encounter does scale depending on skill level, if you play Hard then expect hard encounters.

@Spirit, I can't play your demo's, MarkV does not recognize them. 
Cool Map! 
demo https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/daz_mstalk.rar

This was really fun. Great fights and I found 6/10 secrets on my first run through :D

Not being able to get through the broken hole in the wall to get the LG was annoying, wasted most of the pent getting stuck on that, it looked big enough!

The final combat area was great fun. Very well balanced with a trap mechanic that was actually useful (imagine that).

I give this map 3 shub tentacles out of 3. With bonus wobbling effect. 
 
@FifthElephant, got your demo, very cool. I am glad you got the LG early, I wanted people to recognize (visual language thing) the demon face to mean secret, plus I thought it was cool how the LG was delivered to the player.

Sorry about getting trapped with the NG/GA demon. I did not realize how cautious quake players would be and how often they try to escape situations by pulling back. I like the way you did the final battle circling the room using the traps, it was awesome! :) 
Sock.. 
Glad you enjoyed it, I tried to do a nightmare demo today but I died on the final encounter.

As for the NG/GA demon area I thought there was a secret under the lift (it looks like another room under there!), I wasn't being cautious :P 
Funny Bug !? 
I played the vanilla version today in nightmare mode, and in the final room, most monsters were exploding by themselves with tons of gibbs falling down ! It was really funny and I said to myself "WTF !?" with a grin !

I presume this is a small and hilarious bug... 
Sock 
Hindsight is always 20:20 - but how was I supposed to know to save the pent before getting in the lift on the first run? 
Surprised 
when I looked at the .map files at the lack of detail brushes! 
Bugs... 
There's a lot of teleporter problems in the standard .bsp version of the map. Lots of baddies telefragging each other that don't in the proper .pak version. Especially the final room, ogres and vores telefragging each other, almost the entire first wave of baddies telefrag each other.
(this seems to be even worse if you run the map in RMQ) 
 
@ricky, my point is why would you jump off a lift with three shamblers below? You had plenty of ammo to kill them safely from above. Also the pent is in the lift room, you don't have to save it!

@FifthElephant, the map architecture is so simple there is no need for detail brushes. Also AI in quake is really bad (navigation) around complex brushwork, I learnt my lesson with my ITS mod. 
Well 
I could see the shamblers, but I was running out of ammo for the SNG and I saw the health next to the wall, and I thought 'if I get to the bottom and run out of ammo, im fucked, so I'll go for the health, hopefully Ill have enough time to find some cover and some moar ammo' and jumped.

Ended up being not much cover and the bugger tagged me. Oh well. It was fun though :) 
Func_detail 
just puts the brushes into a separate part of the compiling process so the vis times are lowered, they're still just normal brushes added to the worldspawn. Having faster vis times is a real god send IMO and as far as I know it doesn't really affect AI.

I'm messing about with the map to see if I can figure out why all the mobs telefrag each other... (and to admire the lovely brushes) 
 
@RickyT23, I wanted the design for this map to vary the normal fight patterns for the payer. Some fights require caution, some aggression, it is my way of trying to vary combat pacing and stop the player being bored.

@Fifth, the map takes 6 minutes to full compile, the right amount of time to make a cup of coffee! I rarely do full compiles, I compiled the map once in the first week of construction. Once you get an idea for how the scale of things are, you don't need to compile much. The real time sink is lighting, I probably wasted hours trying to get that right.

I checked the optimized version (1D) with Fitz 0.85 and Mark V and got no problems with spawning on any skill level. What engines and configs are people using that are getting problems? 
-quoth 
Make sure Quoth is not active. With Around the U Bend map it caused telefragging. 
Spawning Problems 
occurred for me on the latest version of fitz *whilst using quoth* (reduces monster in-fighting, makes the game harder)... RMQ you get telefrag problems even without using quoth. (I know it wasn't tested for this anyway)
Also in the first wizard spawn room (when you pick up the silver key) you get a sv_touchlinks error. Dunno why this could be. 
 
Both of those examples (fitz + quoth, RMQ) are not vanilla GL engine setups. You should be using the original 1C version. 
= Don't Use Quoth If Not Required! 
The telefragging occurs because Quoth v2 makes point-sized triggers have a 64^3 bounding box if not custom value is defined. This causes the monsters in the teleporter closets to touch more than one trigger. It will be changed in the upcoming patch.

Works fine in RMQ for me.

I don't see how playing normal maps in Quoth cab possibly make them harder. Infighting is only disabled for the Death brigade. 
Death Brigade 
is why it's harder ;)

Besides, who says I'm not toying around with making myself a quoth version? ;) 
Well 
For the time being, the trigger issue can be work around by giving each of them a "mangle" "1 1 1" field. 
 
@ricky, my point is why would you jump off a lift with three shamblers below? You had plenty of ammo to kill them safely from above. Also the pent is in the lift room, you don't have to save it!

I did this on my first play through and then the pent ran out before the shamblers ran out of health and I died. 
 
Here is a collection of 13 demos from various people posting in this thread. The zip file is roughly 24mb, not a quick download.

Midnight Demos 1c 
Sock 
recounting the shambler lift area... went well for me - drained all my grenades while lowering, knowing it was kind of dumb... didn't see secret til after doing that then slowly nailgunnig the shambs to death. then got it, and it kind of expired at the start of the arena... Which was very easy for me. Didn't use the spike traps for a while - assumed they'd shoot me at 1st... just kept circling round the room til I figured that out, then used them sparingly.

Like I said, 2nd run demo soon! 
 
The Shambler lift was about making the player panic and wonder what to do. The secret in that room is for the Quad (sorry not the pent as I said earlier), but the player will be distracted with the Shambler situation.

The hardest thing about Quake or any old game is players expection of how things work. It does surprise me why anyone would jump into a pit of lava and expect to survive, but that is Quake, driving into a shit situation and coming out smelling of roses!

The spike traps in the final room were the hardest thing to get right. I had the spikes on the ceiling (you can still see the holes) for a long time and I was forever moving the button around. It was touch/shoot button, large/small sizes and in lots of different positions.

Eventually the light bulb came on and I realized that I was designing the button for the player not a trap. I knew the monsters were in the middle most of the time and then I realized the spikes should be shooting that direction. Once the angle was right and the button behind it all clicked into place and became really good fun to use, for the player! 
Shamblers At Bottom Of Lift 
I dunno as soon as I heard/saw them, I just started shooting them from the lift. That was my gut reaction. 
Yeah 
Same. 
 
"look before you leap" things gamers can never be expected to do. 
 
20 minutes, 4 secrets, 58 kills.

Didn't die on Easy.

Unfortunately it seems my demo didn't record all the way through, because of the map change at the skill selection thingy. :-/ So that pretty much cost you my demo. (I know negke is gonna say something about how that can be accomplished, but tbh I don't play Quake so often anymore and thus I didn't even think about that.)

Thank you for having an acceptable Easy skill setting unlike everybody else. It meant I finished your map without getting frustrated and still had time to look at the pretty brushwork & lighting. Thanks for the consideration.

Good map, reminded me of playing vanilla Quake, which I mean as a compliment. (It was still more like id Hard instead of id Easy, but I'm not gonna complain.)

It didn't occur to me that the blue window things were teleporters, and so I got lost for a bit. I also found the Vore squisher button and afterwards couldn't access the button inside that alcove because the squisher never went back up.

Found 4 secrets.

Needed 5 tries or so for the hop skip and jump part. I tried jumping from the alcove to the right of the window and just bumped off the ceiling there, which I always find a tad annoying - if you want people to jump, give them vertical room.

Got stuck right in front of the LG which almost stupid-killed me. Playtesting??

Still not a fan of the visuals, but then again it added to the vanilla Quake feel. Some nice brushwork in places and also nice routing when I wondered where the GK door was and dropped down right in front of it.

Still slightly too easy to get lost in, and slightly too easy to get hung up on architecture while dodging monsters - same thing I said about your mod's start map.

I played version 1d in Quakespasm.

Final battle was a bit hectic, because I kept pressing the buttons and monsters just kept NOT walking through the spikes. It's probably EASIER to not press the buttons there at all. It was also pushing the upper limit for an Easy skill fight. 
'Whatever You Expect' 
Is the thing that players never do. If they did, your map would be boring tripe.

Haven't played this yet, will have a run tomorrow hopefully. 
Always Interesting 
to read others opinions on matters of skill and etc.
gb, were you able to get the GA secret? 
2nd Demo 
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/mstalk_drew2.zip

generally played like a doofus, much less cautious than in 1st round. Definitely wasn't "clever" -- and so didn't die. 
Ps 
took full advantage of the set up in the finale this time! 
Drew 
I honestly don't remember. 
Lift Shamblers. 
I had no desire to be trapped on a landed lift surrounded by 3 shamblers right next to me, so I did the tactically obvious thing of jumping off to try to run to a more advantageous position.

And died. 
Thankyou! 
 
But If You Start Shooting Them 
you might have had 1 maybe 2 left (although with less than half health). 
I Did Shoot Them! 
Watch the demo..... 
Shamblers 
I wasted my grenades on them in an attempt to kill them or weaken then before having to actually face them up close. Was a great relief when the lift stopped :) 
Nitin. 
They shoot back though. Thus the conclusion that there is too little time to do the necessary shooting and ducking before the lift lands and you are trapped (as it looks like will happen). I suppose you could gamble that the lift will miraculously stop before the Shamblers....but it's more natural to take an active step to control the situation... 
Oh My 
Its good time being a Quake Player!
So awesome! Sock you rock! 
 
@gb, thanks for the feedback :)
It always good to get detailed comments.

It didn't occur to me that the blue window things were teleporters
This does confuse me because I am big fan of visual consistency and all teleporters in the map (including the skill selection ones) are the same texture so I am not sure why you were confused.

Got stuck right in front of the LG which almost stupid-killed me.
Yeah this is certainly my fault, a bad design decision. I assumed everyone would go round and see the ramp hint on the floor, but players always take the path of least resistance. I should of put bars there to make the visuals rights.

Final battle was a bit hectic, it was also pushing the upper limit for an Easy skill fight.
I originally planned for a different skill version of the final battle but then I thought I want the final to be memorable and give the player a sense of achievement. There is subtle difference (less trash spawns) but it is the last room and should feel like an epic battle.

The traps and teleporters in the final room are purely optional and something that players will either use or not. I thought the trap shooters would encouraged players to circle the room which is the best method for the fight (unless of course you are orbs!) 
Well Shit 
looks like my demo ends when I go through the skill select teleporter :( Crap that was an awesome demo! 
 
it will play fine in fitz mark 5 (what about quakespasm?) 
Daz... 
I watched your demo, it worked in the latest version of Fitz 
 
All the demo's work perfectly (except spirit, unknown protocol) with the markV engine. It is the best engine for recording and playing demos and it is thanks to baker for his awesome code. The other engines would be wise to integrate the baker code, it really makes the engine shine. 
Yeah See, I Don't Get It 
I thought with mark 5 it kept recording even if you die, and would only cease if you manually stop it.
apparently this isn't the case. 
Sock 
This does confuse me because I am big fan of visual consistency and all teleporters in the map (including the skill selection ones) are the same texture so I am not sure why you were confused.

I guess the arrangement of the skill select portals (and the familiar text on them) made it immediately clear to Quake players what those were; so I used them as teleporters instinctively. I had forgotten that they have a different texture by the time I reached the window-teleporters. Everything else in the map felt like Quake, so when I heard the teleporter noise, I instinctively looked for the starfield texture.

About the idea to add bars in front of that LG at the lava, well more power to you, but I'd suggest to fix the bug / make the route that *looks* as if it should work actually work. 
Disagree! 
I like the bar idea more personally, as the pathway and its slanty indicator is cooler. 
Aha! 
Thanks Necros/fifth. I really need to change all my Quake shortcuts to use MarkV I guess. 
Great! 
Superb application of deliberately limited texture package, minimal but solid brushwork all around, smooth lighting with added color where applicable, great level layout that doesn't get confusing and perfect gameplay thanks to ingenius monster/choice placement and balanced loadout. Even two weeks work from you results in a brilliant map.

Many thanks sock, much appreciated!

1stRunDemo (Vanilla)
QuakeSpasm 0.85.8
skill 2; 15:52, 9/10 secrets, 101/101 kills
 
Nice 
Great brushwork, and having recently read "Mountains of Madness" it really captured this "Elder World" feel for me. The layout was great, nicely interconnected and not confusing at all. Also liked how only parts of the map were damaged.

Skill 1 first run demo 
Extremely Episode 3... 
And extremely well done :) The creative texturing and architectural details really set this map apart. The gameplay was good and should have been survivable but, as you can see in my demo, it wasn't on my first run (on normal, too). The lighting was cool.

Cheers!

Demo: http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/mstalk_generic.7z 
 
@erc, thanks for the demo. I was wondering why all the entities were missing and then I realized you must of used the new 1d version (no extra models etc)
@sleep, cool demo, you were very cautious. The zombies woke up early (next RL) because of a trigger problem, oh well my fault on that one.
@generic, when you said you were going to die in your demo I thought it was being squashed by lift bars or by the shamblers at the bottom of the lift, but you made it too the end room! :D

I've got 17 demo files so far, I will do another big demo zip file at the end of the week if anyone is interested. 
 
My demo is probably protocol 10002 or 10005 or whatever bengt's protocol was 
 
Duuuuude, what's with the constant messages that pop up everywhere? This is such an irresponsible thing to do for the designer because it simply destroys immersion. It's a reminder that you are playing a map and not visiting a new environment, and the words are from designer, not from the world. Man. It also reeks of a new mapper who just discovered the message function and is itching to say something just for the sake of it.

I also didn't like the dbs secret right behind the player's spawn, the button should have been some place else, to promote exploration.

I'm not sure that 2 Death Knights were a good choice for the RL ambush (playing on Nightmare). They couldn't reach me with their swords and their ranged attacks almost always bumped into the border or were easily dodged. They went down fast and unimpressive.

Map has good flow and visuals in general, thanks Simon (BUT STOP WITH THE MESSAGES FFS DUDE!). 
SM_172 
"Constant messages"

Sock reeks of "new mapper" to me for sure.

Luckily having a great big fucking HUD doesn't break the immersion too much. 
 
?? There's only the 1 message at the start that i remember sticking out. 
Harmata 
dude. 
Vanilla Version. 
So much nicer not having to dick around with stuff to play it properly rather than pixelly. Fun having another play-through. I got all the gameplay tricks this time around.

Can't for the life of me work out how to get the bridge secret in the lava area. Am looking for a button or a jump or indeed ANYTHING... 
 
@Harmata, have not been called a newbie mapper for a while! :D Not everyone plays a map the same, there are some who love the rush of combat and others who want to explore. Finding a balance between the two is always going to leave some feeling they want things different.

Not many people (watching demos) bothered with getting the SSG or NG early, they just moved on and found it from natural progression. The SSG is designed to be found easily so that everyone can experience the feeling of finding secrets.

Most of the messages are simply my humour, the map is nothing serious, just a midnight snack. The environment has no rhyme or reason, it is a brushwork doodle playing to the strength's of each monster you fight. Did you have fun playing the map?

@Shambler, the lava bridge secret (daggers fall) is triggered from the wall spike shooter room. It is close enough to hear/see the gate being moved from infront of the teleporter window. 
 
"Sock reeks of "new mapper" to me for sure."
For those with reading comprehension problems: i didn't call him a new mapper, i said that these "humorous" messages are often used by newbie mappers to no good. They are no good here too. I know Simon since his Quake 3 levels, i've read his website often.
"Most of the messages are simply my humour, the map is nothing serious, just a midnight snack."
Do you know that if you'd remove these messages the map would become a level with good Quake atmosphere?
I mean, nothing else on this map is funny, it's certainly not a joke map. This is why i think that these messages are out of place, they hurt atmosphere that you yourself created.
"The SSG is designed to be found easily so that everyone can experience the feeling of finding secrets."
I see, i see.
"Did you have fun playing the map?"
Oh yes. I'd tell you otherwise, don't worry :). 
What Else You Know About Sock? 
Apart from Q3? 
TBF 
You kinda have a good point about the messages, though there's a history of amusing messages in decent Q1 maps... 
 
I felt similar about the messages, actually I meant to mention them but forgot. Negatively noticed them in mfx's "first one" too. They always break immersion for me because it is neither the game (counters, keys) speaking to me nor some entity from the map universe (computer, god, fsm). Instead the mapper (the real god ;) ) intrudes the world. I know what Harmata means and I feel the same (mostly because I did the same in my mapping attempts). They quickly become awkward, especially if you replay at a much later time.

Gonna capture my demo later so you can finally watch. Sorry about the protocol trouble. :/ 
What Else You Know About Sock? 
He worked on maps for Wolfenstein: Enemy territory and has written about his work, he likes to travel, he released free texture sets on his website (which i will someday use).

I like to watch him sleep. 
I Have To Agree 
about "humorous" messages in Quake levels. Quake is serious business ;-). 
ET 
I used to play ET a serious lot, wich maps are socks? 
 
Just check his website:
http://simonoc.com/pages/design.htm 
Have You Also Seen This? 
http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60875&start=304

?

To me Sock reeks of sweaty foot. And his maps are like the proest of pro.... 
Shitting Christ. 
I spent about 30 mins in and around that room, I have no idea how I missed that!!! 
I Accidentally Found The DBS 
In the first room, but when I replayed it I couldn't find it :) 
Humour In Maps... 
Anyone who takes quake too seriously needs to look at the shit they're playing. It's one of the darkest humour games of the 90's, crushing traps, nail traps, floating eyeballs (LOTR reference), pentagrams, lava and slime traps, ogres with a chainsaw for an arm....

I loved the messages personally, I'm gutted I missed the SSG kickstarter message on my first go actually, I found it hilarious. Mappers should make maps for themselves first and foremost, errors and bugs can be rectified but humour is subjective IMO. 
This Post Contains A Point As It Seems That Everyone Is Missing It 
Nice 
http://dl.dropbox.com/s/kwclnudzcvkuona/mstalklurk.zip

Contains a very chatty first play demo and a "second go" demo. Skill 1 both since I haven't played Quake in a long time.

1. First run is long due to chattiness and looking for secrets. With 10 secrets, I was convinced that one would be a light that needed axing or shooting. Ha.

2. I saw the 10th secret (lava area) while watching my first run demo. Loaded a save to figure out how to get to it "properly" and gave up. Proceeded to record my "taking care of business" second go instead.

3. I play with r_wateralpha 1. That's why I stare at lava like an idiot in the first run. When I say I'm no longer curious, I've changed r_wateralpha to 0.6 .

4. I thought that the start selection area was gratuitous but loved the rest. For me the difficulty (and length, especially!) was perfect. I look forward to playing again in future. 
 
@Harmata, I can understand you might be frustrated by the messages, but I like to add humour to maps especially if they are hobby stuff and nothing too serious.

@Orbs, I worked on most of the ET maps, some more that others. I added a special model prop to my primary map, a pair of socks! My website has full details of what I did with ET maps, those were the days when professional LD was fun!

@RickyT23, have you found the hidden weapon in the skill selection area yet? Not everything is marked as a secret.

@Shambler, I usually place the trigger for a secret very close but I could not find anywhere within line of sight that was a cool location, which is why it is difficult to find. 
 
@FifthElephant All those things you named are not humorous, they are cool and some of those things are, well, standard. What, you'll tell me you ever laughed at a lava trap?
"Mappers should make maps for themselves first and foremost"
... then they should also play them themselves.
"hobby stuff and nothing too serious"
Well, those messages do feel like hobby stuff.

...

UNLIKE THE REST OF THE LEVEL! (ba-dum-tss?) 
... 
claustrophobopolis is the perfect example of hilarious lava traps... 
There Was Hardly That Many Messages 
 
 
"hilarious lava traps"
There's a difference between "a humorous lava trap" and a "humorous use of a lava trap by designer".
"There Was Hardly That Many Messages"
One is too many actually, depends on the type tho. Something like "Click..." when the door opens is okay, but "That's a BIG gun, isn't it?" after a weapon pick up or "HOT! HOT HOT!" in the middle of a lava pool is obviously designer messin' around. 
 
hm, i must me be more used to centerprints than I thought. i don't remember any of those.

i just remember things like 'shambler cache' and such and sock is hardly the first to 'name' secrets in a map. 
Definitely Something Of A Quake Tradition 
Or at least one that's developed over the years


and which I have no problem with


and which a lot of the *best* quake mappers have utilized. 
 
this map is god fun 
From The Quake Manual 
Quake talks to you from time to time........ 
 
@lurker, thanks for the demos, it was awesome to watch. I especially liked the comments in demo 1 and have some answers for your questions.

Silver/Gold Keys

The first key is in the split room to the left with the ogres behind bars and jumping down from above. The reason this is a key not a button for the final door is because the player picks up a key and has to bring it to a certain location. Pressing a button is remote and prone to the player getting lost easily. Having a silver key with relevant wall symbols is perfect for directing the player.

The second silver key is on a ledge behind bars next to a set of bars splitting a room in half. I wanted the player to be facing the split room door, so that when they open the room they are facing a certain way. By having the player use a silver key they will be facing a certain direction (usually, most people don't open doors backwards) and see the bars raise up and the steps pop out from the side.

The keys can be used from a design point of view for many things, they are not simply a barrier mechanic but also a way of focusing the player in a certain direction. 
Just Replayed It For The Third Time 
seriously delicious map.

In addition to the comments I made above, I will agree with the person that said a few ambient sounds here and there would have made the atmosphere even better. 
 
Finally uploaded my playthrough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0vSsRAfB0I 
 
@nitin, awesome :) Did you try different skill levels? Did you find all the secrets? Did you use the monster crushers?

@spirit, thanks for your youtube link, but I really want to watch a demo file on my pc full screen. Sorry, thanks for the effort. 
Sock 
secrets, 5/7, I have never really been good with secrets though. Played it on medium first 2 times, hard the third time but I'm not an expert at hard and found it pretty challenging. I found it pretty challenging on medium too but that's because of the monster placement unless you changed the AI?

Monster crushers, second and third time yes. First time through, I usually just shot stuff :) 
Sorry I Asked The AI Question Again 
because you didnt answer it before. 
Oh And Secrets Should Be 7/10, Not 5/7 
 
 
@nitin, there are no changes to AI, I just tried to place the AI in advantageous positions so their attack is more effective. For example, tweaking height levels for ogres and Hknights and hiding knights around corners so they can get to the player quicker. I am glad you tried different skill levels, I spent a while tweaking them. :) 
Yep Just As I Thought 
but wanted to confirm. It is very clever placement. 
Demo 
Btw, I'm An Idiot. 
I made some func_walls act as counters in mstalk1d which results in their removal after the end battle. I should have thought of that... 
 
@negke, I would not worry, hardly anyone went back for secrets after the final battle (from all the demos I watched). I get the impression most people don't hunt for secrets, if they find some then it is a bonus, otherwise they march to the end. 
 
When I create a demo for public display I don't go for excessive secret hunting so I don't bore the viewer. No idea how/if others change their playing style when observed but I could imagine others doing the same and skewing the "first run" with that. 
 
@spirit, actually that is the stuff I like to watch in demo's, getting a proper understanding of what players are looking at and for how long. Plus the Mark V engine has FF/RW functions for watching demo's which I use to skip obvious stuff or watch an encounter again. One thing I do like about demo's is that it forces players not to rely on quick save/load functions, the bane of Quake IMHO. 
Secrets. 
I try to find secrets, and often return from before the exit to do so. By which time they are all useless of course.

I like secrets :D 
 
re: secrets, that's definitely my take on them. if i see something during play, i'll make some effort to figure out how to get it, but usually don't spend very long on it.
secret locations are more of a draw to me than items. 
Yeah 
depending on my mood and how much time I have spent/have left to spend I tend to hunt around afterwards. I figure if the mapper wants to stop watching at any point they can do so. 
Demo 
I die after getting careless and alerting a horde.

Some secret hunting, a few comments.

Missed all the crusher traps :P

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x7ws8qsfb3jms4t/ijedmstalk.zip 
 
Final collection of demo files (21 total, 39.6Mb)

@ijed, that is a shame about the lava death, things were going really well up till that point. I was looking forward to the final battle.
@spy, at the beginning of your demo it felt like you had played it before (found LG/SS secrets very quickly). Nightmare mode looked crazy hard.

@necros, cool, I did not know that, I will make sure to add more secret areas next time :)

@shambler, I am glad someone loves the hunt for secrets, it is always great replay value for me. 
 
yeah, items in secrets are rarely useful to me anyway. kell was a master at this. he'd make windows looking out on areas that looked like they were just for decoration and then you'd find out that it was actually part of a secret.

those were really rewarding and you got a nice visual treat when you found your way into them too. 
Sock 
yeah, i guess it was 2nd run, not sure what version i've been playing 1c or 1d

looking forward to your next release 
Ijed Demo2 
 
@spy, your demo was 1c (the extra stuff). I know this because when I play 1d demo's with 1c all the entities (doors etc) are missing visually.

@ijed, thanks for the second demo. As you found out some secrets are designed for second+ runs, just like the crushers. I designed the map to be played several times and each time get new things to play with. It was cool to see the RL ambush working as planned. The zombies pushing the player to grab the RL and the HKnights forcing the player to switch weapons or be punished with rocket damage. 
Yeah 
I did that the first time as well.

It felt like it would have worked better with fiends instead of HK's and 4x as many zombies - all cramped into that tiny space. To try and provoke 'stunning' the zombies, so the player can deal with the fiends and then escape. 
A Series Of Heavily Compressed Images & An Mp3. 
Once Again Daz. 
You manage to make 20 minutes of waffling on about bog standard Q1SP we've been playing for 17 years interesting and thought-provoking :)

BTW, I didn't panic on the shambler lift, it was a tactical decision. 
 
@ijed, fiends would hit the ceiling infront of the RL area and just be sitting targets. The Hknights have a range attack that travels along the floor and a nice melee to greet the player when trying to exit the platform. The zombies were just a distraction not the main combat focus, too many and the player would panic.

@Daz, awesome video and comments :) As I said on the youtube channel the video is extremely dark for me and probably be hard to watch for anyone not in a dark room.

@Shambler, just admit it, you panicked on the lift!?! :P It looks like my plan worked ... :) 
Different Style 
The player could ignore the fiends (but still be scared of them) until they got hemmed in by the zombies and had to make it past the fiends.

I prefer making it so that when in close quarters the player is only receiving damage from one group at a time. 
Shambler Lift... 
I didn't panic because I saved the pentagram for when I opened the gold door, it was a wise decision that paid off pretty well ;) 
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