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New Q1 SP QUOTH "Termination Mental"
Hi Guys!

Just a small base map, losely based on E3M1 "Termination Central" by John Romero.

Screenshot 1 Screenshot 2 Download ZIP file

Features some nice brushwork and textures, and some questionable ones too.

Anyway, have fun.

Very nice map. I wish it could be more expanded to a proper e3m1 rmx

Noticed some grayflashes at the bridge 
Easy skill much too abusive.

I died in the slime at the SK door, not finding the button because I thought I had to shoot the red shootable button on the wall there instead. That didn't seem to do anything though.

TBH the button in the slime doesn't look like a normal Quake button, which probably was why I kept shooting the red one instead.

So when I went in the second time, I had to go without a suit and died on the lift.

Second run, I got killed by the eliminator after the SK door, after narrowly surviving being caught between an Edie and a Pyro moments ago and having already killed a Vore.

On skill 0.

Quoth monsters have this tendency to make the game overbearingly hard, and I just HATE the pyros and eliminators. In my opinion those are miniboss level enemies, but you use them all the time on skill 0.

Are you kidding? 
Skill 1 demo

Why use wateralpha windows while you can set the alpha value on func_wall and func_breakable?

Played much better than mfxsp10 since I started with the DBS. Some heavier weaponry, like a PG, against the Quoth cunts would be nice (though I did find the GL).

Nice and cleverly constructed overall. Looked really sweet in places, too, thanks to the fog and skybox combo.

Only found 3 secrets, which is a little embarrassing. 
Hard skil much too easy.

I nearly had some trouble in the SK slime pit, but knew it would be a race against the clock, had a quick look around, and pressed the other button. Then decided I had enough armour to go in sans suit and get the other button secret anyway.

I found the rest of the run very steady, especially with getting most of the secrets. The ambushes were fine and there was always a lot of space to retreat.

On skill 2!

Quoth monsters generally suck but they were used fine in this on skill 2. There could have been a few more. Actually, there could have been a lot more normal Quake enemies in general - a lot of the bigger areas later could have taken a lot more - the current gameplay was cool, but I reckon it could have been more fun by being a bit more intense in the more open areas.

Nice and cleverly constructed overall, apart from the big slime area which had boxy base walls which didn't go so well with the well-detailed areas elsewhere. I think you could have used more natural rocks here. Looked really sweet in places with the fog (nice dusty colour), I had a standard Quake skybox though??

Found 8 secrets and they were all fun. 
What, you expect us to actually read the text??

That sky is much better. Gives it a good desert vibe.

BTW there is a massive b0rkage / hom on a bridge in the big slime room.

I did feel some areas were not as polished as MFXSP8 tho. Still good fun tho. 
Clip Brushes !!! 
Just started this, but have to go run some errands. Will finish later. Haven't got the Silver Key yet. Looks nice, not having to much trouble with the harder enemies, but this map seriously needs a whole lot of clip brushes. I was constantly getting hung up on architecture, to the point where I was about ready to quit out of annoyance. 
I played the map, here's the link to my first playthrough -

(they're both the same file, just making sure the link works)

Overall the map is not bad, definitely didn't enjoy as much as your other two releases. Some weird texture choices, some definite bugs and issues too in the map. I thought some of the quoth enemy choices were a little tough, the defender grunts can be quite tough so I'd use caution when throwing them into the map (especially close quarters).
I got a little bit tired at how often I had to climb the spiral slopes in the main slime atrium area... Also you could have switched up some of the secret items (3 armour secrets in one area is overkill). 
my demo run includes quite a lot of commentary and feedback so check it out ;) 
You Now What To Do



Good map! I nearly died on the ending battle on normal, which was scary, but otherwise it seemed reasonable in 'normal' difficulty. 
Iquaddicated! Injectorized! 
Achievement unlocked: Releasing Numbered Maps in Random Order 
actually i will have to repack it since the env directory is there and the injector . ok if i fix the encoding of the readme too and the link to kell (one c to many)?

My engine has a bug with this one, displays the void if you have fog or the sky (gotta test which) behind skipped(?) windows. :( So no youtube from me. Damn :( 
*the injector can only extract zip files plain and simple. It needs to include the maps/ and gfx/env/ structure so you unpack into quoth/ .

Actually, that would require a readme rewrite. Wanna do it? :> 
Quakespasm displays the windows right at the start as grey solid faces. fitzquake mark has a terrible sound lag with wine. No mfxsp6 for me. 
r_wateralpha 0.3 
The lift to the right of the Silver Key door should NOT have a roof.

I was running out of air in the suit (because I wasted time shooting at a button with the "shoot me" texture, when it actually needed to be pushed), so I just grabbed the key and ran back up the same way I came down. Then I noticed those bars blocking the lift shaft had opened. I jumped down and that was that. Stuck.

Buttons were probably not a good choice for that lift, I think a trigger brush toward the back of the shaft would have been better. Textures with an up arrow could have indicated what the lift was for. 
Yay, Thanks Otp 
new zip is up and the Injector should really work now, thanks mfx! 
you �re right. Ooops!
Stupidity must be punished!! 
~15 minutes

Overwrote my demo on reloading because meh. jdhack, come back!

Very nice, quite hard on normal but very enjoyable. Died a few times on the final eddies. 
First Play Demo (died in slime trap, skill 1)

Sorry, did not like this map, too many design problems. Monsters in spawn area, monsters spawning behind the player without warning, visual language broken (red buttons that cannot be shot), mixed monster types (tech/medieval), skill 1 too hard at the beginning and flow of map confusing after Shalrath area. I liked the broken panel details and the blending of wall materials near the final teleporter.

The map started with a cool idea (E3M1) but it just seemed to wander off track with no layout plan later on. Visual language is very important in Quake, this is something I learnt the hard way myself. Certain textures in Quake mean certain things and using them for different functions can cause frustration, especially in situations where the player is being forced to act quickly (bio suit). 
My 2 Bitcoins 
agree on some of the critism above, liked the map nontheless. I even learned a quoth lesson opening a new array of tricks:)

easy run: 
Thanks for your honest evaluation.

This map was one of my first attempts in really legit brushwork, i know you being a perfectionist at all the aspects of mapping.

Now i go cryin under my bed. 
And Sock 
btw do you really play like this? I mean, man that .dem was frightening. 
Orbs Demo 
Gold medal as usual.
Jumping on monsters?
You are an awesome player! 
I liked it. Kind of wild style.

Clip issues seem legit. Some cool secrets (only found like 7 I think?). I don't think I comment a lot in the demo this time. It's nice, I survived 1st go, found spots I like, but also recognize why people like Sock might have issues with it (and Negke will probably, also).
I found Hard about right - could have been tougher in spots but I also got brutalized here and there. Particularly by cruelly placed Defenders.

Anyways, 16.5/20, if I were to use a 20 point rating scale.
like the style, looking forward to whatever you have next! Demo of 1st run coming up. 

Fun map, got lost in a few places though. Also ran out of ammo and health. :D

Never played Quoth before, new monsters freaked me out. 
Your fist map got me i still haven't fished it so this one was personal. Finley at 2:30 am i made it to the finish line. could not have done it with out gunning up tho (impulse 9) but then when don't i. i got stuck for a good bit on tadaa button. it was a fun run and i have been digging quoth maps the last few days. 
I mean, man that .dem was frightening.
I am certainly no orbs, trick jumper or hard skill player, I like to take my time and look around. If I like a map on normal skill I will re-play again on hard skill for the extra challenge.

At the beginning of the map I was trying to setup recording a demo and got attack, ambushed and then dropped into a hostile room full of hitscan enemies and many new Quoth base monsters. The beginning of a map is a delicate time where the player is wanting to get the feel of the place and look around. Obviously I am not your typical Quake player and my opinion should be taken with a large pinch of salt! :) 
Very fun to play.

* You improved a lot your base map skills since mfxsp8, the brushwork is more detailed, the areas are less cramped and varied.
The ambushes, monster placement and combats are good and varied.
Quoth and non Quoth monsters are very well used and placed.
The box to get cover in the elevator is very nice.
The rocketeers are placed very well.
The ambush with bobs and the second with eddies were very exciting.
The difficulty, overall, is better done than in the previous one.
The map is as hard in the middle than at the beginning, it is as improvement over mfxsp10.

* The lighting is as good as mfxsp8, good.
The amount of ammo and health is a bit over but OK.
Thanks to the use of monsters, the first try is way harder than usual, but the second or third tries the map get way easier (i don't know if consider this a good or bad thing).
I would have preferred to see more eliminators instead of enforcers in hard and night, but that way you did is good too because they become more unique and dangerous to the player's mind, even though i don't consider them as dangerous were they are placed.

* But as there are improvements, there are downsides when compared with mfxsp8. Only the slime is important, the rest aren't that bad:

-The slime areas. The first one is too chaotic, too many places to go, and it isn't intuitive enough were to go too. Hide the secret more and make the more needed button to the SK more obviuous.
In the second, you give a biosuit in a place were you have to see it for sure, so the players expect is obligatory to use it, but apart from that, you show very clearly that there is a path in the boxes. Two restrictive paths, that confuse a bit. It isn't clear too that the biosuit respawns, and that helps a lot.

- The secrets, very nicely placed and the contents are good for the areas where they are. But there is 3 exceptions: The armour secrets. The first one is too close to the armour you are given at the beginning, the second and third are too close to each other.

- Pyros. It's OK to use Pyros. It's OK to use them in ambushes. It is OK for ambushes to get some free hits on you. But it is not that good to use them in ambushes you can't expect, like the first two pyros. Pyros have a high DPS, so before you find where the pyro is, you get too much damage done on you. The fire makes it harder to see where it is and where to go, so it adds to the problem. A defender or even an eliminator would be better.

- Bobs need a lot of room to move and the first one gets stuck easily. Eventually, you'll find it later, so it is a minor issue.

- The last fight was too easy. It would be better to end it with the eddies fight.

* Here is the demo. Sorry, but i had to change the name of the map from [...]6[...] to [...]7[...], i have the 6 key broken and Quake doesn't recognize the numerical keyboard or ASCII one, so remember to change the name of the map before playing my demos.

I do think it is more interesting how people fight the first time in this map than in others, so i put the first and second attempt in one file and the third and final into the other.

I played the map on nightmare on the three attempts. The third became way easier, but the three were fun. All monsters killed. 7/10 secrets.

* I got grey solid texture in the windows that go to the outside of the map in Quakespasm. No issues with the rest.

* I found this too.

Second one seems to be from a leak, but i did think that modern engines could handle those.

And finally, tell me if my messages are too long, i usually explain everything in the most detailed way i see worthy enough. 
Using Defenders as melee enemies is retarded 
Generally a nice little map, good remake/remix, perhaps a tad samey in style. However, also many unnecessary technical issues (e.g. windows/wateralpha, clipping, portal errors) and gameplay-related things (e.g variety, assholish ambushes) that could've been avoided with proper playtesting! 
the same old base-ish style, nonetheless I'll take a look :) 
I Get Really Bad Visual Errors In Fitz 
if I set r_wateralpha to 0.3. All slime areas have HOM. If I set it to 1, the windows dont work and become grey.

Is there something else I need to do or is this a probelm with the map? 
i know bout some hom problems but overall this map should be displayed properly.
grfx card issue? 
And Concerning The Fact 
that this is a really old scrap of a map, yes the windows arent alpha func_walls but normal skip.textured ones. 
My Strange Domo 
I don't know why I have died. An indestructible enforcer which couldn't be shot killed me in an strange place.
Until this point the map was nice fighting on skill 2. I didn't know where to go after reaching the SK door and after long searching fell down to meet with my fate (enforcer).
Was it intended this way? 
Nice One. 
Had some major fun in the slime. Nice gameplay all round. 
R_wateralpha HOM 
You need to also set r_novis 1 or 0 too I think to remove water HOM 
Quoth allows map settings like wateralpha to be set automatically which is a big advantage over manual configuration (because many people tend to miss it).

In the case of this map, however, the problem is that, on the one hand, it relies on wateralpha for the window panes, but on the other hand the level is compiled without compatibility for transparent water volumes. Fitzquake and variants support wateralpha on brush entities as well, that's why the windows can be made transparent with r_wateralpha, but everything beneath the slime is still visblocked.

The novis command can used as a workaround, indeed. Of course, the downside is the impact on the performance. However, this shouldn't be that much more strain on the machine, because apparently the map is only fastvised anyway. And I can see why. A test fullvis made the portal errors even worse. The readme says the map was - at least partially - made with QuArK... another proof of its "glory" obviously. As so often, there must be a great bunch of floating point brushwork that messes up everything.

Luckily, since we're pretty much required to use r_novis anyway, it will also help hide the portal errors (no more disappearing geometry). Older engines may have problems with it then, though, or at least have to be adjusted accordingly. 
Nice Map With Problems 
Played on skill 1 - it wasn't too hard for me and I didn't mind monsters teleporting in behind me as much as others did. Don't have a problem with using the Pyro neither. What bothers me in this map is the confusing layout and the technical problems (HOMs etc.). But as this was a much earlier map for you, I guess there's no point in criticizing that.

I would however really urge you to find a small group of good beta testers and do extensive testing. I think that would lead to a lot of improvement!

Skill 1 demo, Quakespasm 0.89.9: 
So I Need To Set R_novis To 1 
if so, this should be in the readme.

Apart from this annoying problem, I quite liked the map. 
Why The Fog? 
Today's mappers think like:
"The more fog I add the more mysterious it will look like. So the more people will like it." 
Th Fog Worked Well IMHO 
fog adds to ambient, no clue why;)
and it fits perfectly to the skybox, dont ya think? 
First-play demo on skill 1 w/ Fitz Mark V:

Includes the saga of me trying to find how to get to the GL, while also not wanting to jump into the thing that looks like a map-exit. 
To add: normally (not recording) I would just save and then jump in to see if it actually was the exit -- it seemed really unlikely that it was, buuuut... 
Any Chance 
of getting a fixed water version of this? 
r_novis 1 
Yes I Know 
but if its not too hard to fix, why not just fix it? 
will play it again with that setting and give some proper feedback. 
Because the .map as itself is a big fuckup from a noob.
Hard, if not to say impossible to tweak.
Guess why it wasnt included in release.
Spent nearly 4 weeks eliminating the leaks in this one, which didnt
made it sexier.
Anyway, i can mail you the mess, if you want to take a look. 
No Thats Fine 
was just wondering if it was an easy fix. Like I said, will try it with r_novis 1 and post back more comments. 
Mfxsp8 was done after this map(numbering is there for a reason).
So you actually tell me my skills at mapping have lowered :(

The button textures i choosed for secrets and progression were bad, i know, not much consistency here.

That open slime area was imo cool design, player can choose different routes to explore(and die). Non linear layout was tbh the best solution in that part.

The contents of the secrets are lame, will improve that next time.

Pyros? They steal armor at first, thats what they do, seeing no big problem there.

Last fight beeing to easy? Well its just the start of an episode, so no epic endbattles, and thats why weaponry is limited. (Yes you read right, episode, got some maps that represent E3 were well, still polishing on some :) )
Anyway, your comments are always appreciated, don�t bother about them beeing too long or sth. Liked your feedback, as it helps me getting less assholish (thanks to negke for that new word in my dictionary...) 
Getting Less Assholish 
is a good trend! ;-) 
1) I thought that even if the base of this map was done before, the rest were done after, getting this released after the other seemed to be proof of that. If you want to simplify things, in my opinion the best points of this one compared to mfxsp8 is the placement and use of monsters. Second * were things that aren't either good or bad.

2) More that about the textures, i do think it causes more problems the lighting and visibility, it catches your attention more some cages than a wall, and those cages are better lighted and are in front of you when you reach the pool, on the opposite part, the button for the silver key is in the farthest darker corner.

3) No problems with the layout there, i liked it, i was talking more about how it is that both ways seemed equal important and mutually excluding at first in a map with one way to go in the rest of it, because the biosuit is in the open.

4) Well, it is more that it is frustrating to loose so much life when you can't avoid it, but if i think it well, considering the YA secret the issue was fixed from the start. So forget this.

5) More that it is easy, it is that the eddies one is harder, and looks more like the end fight. But it is true that there is no rule that says that every map must end on an epic battle.

I will be waiting for the next one. :) 
In 1) i wanted to say ''Second * are things that aren't either better or worse compared to mfxsp6.'' The phrase i used there can create many misunderstandings.

I still have to get used to no having edit function. 
played it without any glitches this time. Some good design but on the whole it seemed a bit random and stuck together.

Gameplay though was quite fun, I didnt mind the pyro spawns and the layout also led to some good non-linar gameplay at times. 
Came up one enemy short on hard skill, after going back through the map looking, couldn't find it.
Found 8 secrets, which range from easy to find, to moderate, but wherever those other 2 secrets are, I cannot even find any clues that would lead me to them.
All in all, pretty fun map, although somewhat flawed 
Finally catching up on quake releases.

On big open spaces: I'm a bit torn about the central, wide open space. I really liked seeing into it at the beginning of the map, knowing that I'd get there later. It's also nice to have variety of space size for different combat. But it did feel a bit empty and less detailed, and left sections within a bit cramped - cutting back to the essentials just so everything fit, not making a claustrophobic experience for the player.

On exploring in slime: I quite liked that there were several sections where you got the biosuit and had to explore under time pressure to find secrets. I did only find half the secrets on the map though, people who are more completist than me might have been annoyed.

On combat: I thought things were pretty well balanced throughout the map. In the wide open sections my nail ammo was under pressure but it never got frustrating, so supplies were pitched just about right. The biggest fight in the map, at the heavy door, was balanced out by the ample cover and the way none of the monsters could navigate through.

So yeah, all-in-all good stuff. The secret defender ambush where your only escape was falling into slime was a bit evil though. Also, a quick tip - if you apply the sliver key flag to both doors in the pair, then they'll still only take one key to open, but you can touch either of them to get it to work. 
thanks for your feedback.
the slvr doors werent "linked" ,
but one(the key door) triggered the other.
Bad design made in a hurry, i know...

learning by error is still the most effective way for me, as it seems.

wanna pt my next one, you're on the list!

and to evryone else, who's got no summer and reads this:

my first approach and goal when throwing brushes around, was rather visual
one. making it look legit in some way,
gameplay was 2nd concern, now i'm smarter, i guess.
its a fine hard balance One must achieve,
i.e. got 2 maps which are heavily detailed and eyecandy allover, but they just suck in
its a pity, they will never see the board of func_ as it seems by now, i'm just done with them, and i went on...

maybe One day.

thats that. 
Linked Doors 
Actually, doors in quake link by default if they are adjacent or overlap! You have to opt out of the linking with one of the spawnflags. It's one of the well hidden little details of quake. 
i dont really understand, explain! 
spawnflag is that? I had to redesign an area of my last map because the doors kept linking together unexpectedly. 
Haha Hi 5th! 
Hows your holiday in revolution going? 
I'm back from Turkey now. :P
I was nowhere near the trouble in Istanbul either, seems like a lot of the Turks in the area I stayed were not supportive of the protesters. 
Kinda Hyped By The Media Here I Guess.. 
anway hope you enjoyed it, its a Nice place to rest...
mapping atm? 
Linked Doors 
When all the doors in a map have spawned, the first thing that they do is try to find any nearby doors. Here, nearby is worked out by drawing the axis-aligned bounding boxes round all the doors and seeing which ones intersect or touch. All the touching doors get linked together, so when one gets triggered they all activate at once. The func_door_trigger which is spawned for non-target/non-key doors is sized to enclose all of the linked doors.

Sometimes this doesn't work out too well: if you have a door which is rotated or oddly shaped the bounding box might be too large, and link doors you don't intend. Maybe you want doors that can operate independently even though they are touching. If so, you can apply the DOOR_DONT_LINK flag (numerical value 4, so the third spawnflag) to a door and it won't link to anything. 
Not Right Now 
I only arrived in the UK yesterday and I have spent most of the day unpacking and uploading holiday pictures on my pc.

I will probably resume mapping either tomorrow or monday when I'm less tired. 
Ahh. .. 
enlighted i am...
so this explains the errors on multi-brush doors i had.
have to Talk to sleepwalkr 1on1 again... 
Yeah, that's a feature that can almost be classified as a bug. 
A Bug 
can be classified as a feature.... 
Without the skiing bug Tribes wouldn't have existed :D 
Tronyn Review 
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