proper quoth experience, with deadly ambushes and mighty brushwerks
first run demo:
I broke normal, it has two night gaunts and two death guards that should only be there on skill 2. >:(
Fixing this, will post a new link soon.
More Like Slacky Am I Right
I fixed skill 1 and added a light above the Plasma Gun so players can't miss it. Thanks, Vondur! That makes it 220 monsters on skill 1 instead of 224.
New link: http://quaketastic.com/files/single_player/maps/sksp2a.zip
Played The Original Version...
Here's 2 demos... (I die early on my first impression)
Is this BSP2? I encountered some weird bugs...
kinda find it to big, nah correction just to few shortcuts:) (or i didnt find them yet).
There is the same amount of ammo in the starting area on all difficulties, and this area is balanced even on skill 2. Also, you can get back to the lower court by going down the elevator shaft and backpedaling.
Concerning your issues with DirectQ, the map is not BSP2. You were already having problems with zendar and something tells me DirectQ has some issues handling maps like that. The map was only tested using Fitz variants.
I started this up again using the BSP2 compatible version of Fitz.... I get pretty far but it crashes when I grab the rune.
Still, here's a demo.
I disagree with the ammo balancing on skill 2, at one point I was down to using my axe to conserve ammo despite being frugal with ammo and maximising in-fighting.
The map looks great, really impeccable throughout and the combat scenarios are good but I think the ammo needs bumping in areas. Plus I am not a fan of those 3 knights at the beginning on normal skill. Feels a little much for the first encounter, hard mode is fair game IMO.
I'll play it right now!
Looks Nice, But Plays Boring
This map has some seriously nice looking architecture and the layout is also quite intricate without getting too confusing. Texturing seems top notch also. However the lighting seems quite unbalanced - it is too bright in the outside and inside there's often not enough contrast IMO. The great architecture, esp. in the areas with the open skies, could have been even more impressive if the light in those areas was a bit more moody and provided interesting shadows on the walls and floors.
HERE BE SPOILERS
The real problems of this map lie in the area of gameplay though, which is unfortunately mostly boring. Many of the encounters are too easy because the player can circumvent the enemies and take them out from a safe spot - this is esp. apparent in the final boss fight where the player can just stay where he is when the final boss shows up and be safe from its attacks. I could easily kill it without getting hit once. The same thing happens in many other encounters.
Another problem is that many of the enemies are misused and are therefore easy to kill. Compare this to socks maps where each fight is properly set up so that the player ends up frantically looking for cover while trying to kill the enemies. In this map, it was often a matter of taking cover and sniping.
The final problem I had with this map is in finding the secrets - I didn't find a single one. I haven't found out how secrets are marked and I didn't want to end up trying to push every book in every bookcase or randomly shooting at lamps and crosses. The map should have taught the player how secrets are marked right from the start (or maybe it tried and I missed it?).
Here's a first run demo on skill 2:
Great Map !
Hey skacky !
Very great map ! Thanks a lot for it (it's still Christmass !?).
I guess this map is BSP2 ? At least, it's working great with the latest version of QuakeSpasm OSX.
I always play my maps in Nightmare mode, all cheats ON. (sorry, I'm really a goof player).
to have a go at a skill 3 clearance. Had a look for a route for a run earlier when i got the map, but there doesnt seem to be many to shortcut's. Dont agree with the secrets to hard to find, im bad at secret finding but found atleast 7 with not to much effort.
Fish N Chips
demo, skill 1, died once but recorded a 2nd demo starting from that point https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/daz_sksp2.rar
I found 0 secrets! :) This was actually really frustrating as I could find nothing in the levels that looked like it would be a secret or open access to a secret. I looked in every corner and studied every ceiling but nothing stood out to me.
Some monster spawning and position I didn't like. A few times you spawn ogres below the player where they are literally no threat at all, and there are a few cases where you can see monsters off in the distance and out of aggro range just sitting there. It wouldn't mind this so much if it was a Shambler or something similar but typically it was knights or other cannon fodder.
I enjoyed the fight in the small walled in arena with the MH at the center. When all the walls started opening you have a bit of time to position yourself and prepare which I liked a lot. The fight itself was good fun :)
As you can see in the demo, it is possible to cheese the final "boss" fight :(
I felt a lot of areas just couldn't wait to throw enemies at you, which diminished the level somewhat for me. A few areas could have worked a lot better if the player had a chance to explore the layout a little first before introducing enemies.
Architecture was very cool. Great structures off in the distance or above the player in most areas, very cool. Lighting was a bit overbright or perhaps just lacking contrast in many areas though.
Here's a first-play demo on easy skill: http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/sksp2_mandel.zip
Honestly it's the 3rd attempt... I died very early on the first time, and the second time I couldn't continue past the room after the wind tunnel since I wasn't using Quoth.
I had to save myself twice using noclip; once because of a small map issue, once because of a small player issue caused by a small unknown issue - I got some weird polygon errors in that dark outdoorsy area, as can be seen in this screenshot: http://quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/sksp2_poly_issue.jpg
Liked it anyway! Didn't feel too linear to me but still I didn't get lost a lot. The backtracking was a bit unusual, and the vermis fight seemed broken (too easy). Nice environment.
Feedback Is Very Appreciated
Thanks everyone! It is my first "real" release so things could definitely be better. I'll try to answer the best I can:
@FifthElephant: Vondur told me he crashed with Mark V as soon as he wakes the Vermis, but it works on my end. He managed to finish the map with FitzQuake 0.85 though. Not sure what's going on as I no technical wizard unfortunately. As for the death guards on skill 1, you me be right. Replacing these with 1 death knight and 2 knights might be better. As I said there is plenty of ammo there even on skill 2, but I could always add some more, probably inside the flooded hallway with the tarbaby since it's empty.
Vermis fight: Vermis fights are always difficult to make I feared it may be too harsh so this is why the high ledge is a "safe" spot. I wanted to have to almost completely destroyed at first but voted against in the end. I can still make that happen, however, seeing the map is not on QInjector yet. Doesn't take too long to do.
Secrets: they are probably too well hidden, my fault entirely. Some of them are reachable through shooting animated textures (� la Kell), others through pressing books and others through devious means. Not sure how I could make them look more apparent, to be honest. I'll try something in the next version of the map.
@DaZ: on the topic of ogres, I think I could modify some positions. The second switch (the one on the high tower at the beginning) spawns some but you can safely kill them from above. At first there was a blocker on the ledge that forced players to take the teleporters to go back on the ground level, but I thought it looked cheap and quite sucked visually. I may bring that back though as it makes the fight more balanced for our chainsaw-wielding friends.
As for monsters waiting for you, may fault again. I could maybe use triggers to alert these guys or something, so they don't stand there like idiots.
AWESOME! First "release", Bah... Whatever!
All kidding aside, amazing level shacky. I enjoyed it very much. Loved the lighting, architecture and texturing. Gameplay was good too.
I played on skill 3 and it took me well, we'll jus' say forever with a shit ton of quick saves!
Thank you very much, you made my super slow Sunday quite entertaining.
All I Could Find So Far
any hint on what i am missing and i might redo it to get a proper 100%, gave up trying to play fast else i never finish:)
I'd advise people to avoid playing the map in its current state (that is no uploading it to quaddicted yet), I am working on a new version that I hope will be better.
okay will wait till final version
LOL didn't read this and just played... :)
Just died in that dark montain places :( dawn the only part i didn't like in map, the rest is art, really great arquitecture in there!
Thanks for this good minutes of fun Skacky ;)
here it goes first demo...
Why Isn't This On Quakeaddicted Yet?
RoQD, Read The "General Note" A Few Posts Up ;)
Cheers. Gameplay was a little boring, but I enjoyed getting up personal with the hammer... and got a too ambitious when i went and tried it on a Drole, haha. They rip into you pretty quick. Nice envirs, and good use of the Quorlings 3/11 secrets and 218/220.
New Version, Yadda Yadda
If there is one version of the map you must play, it's this one right here: http://quaketastic.com/files/single_player/maps/sksp2b.zip
Changes are massive and too long to list, but let's say gameplay is much better this time overall.
Don't forget demos!
Wayy Better Already...
I have a string of demos (died and saved my progress)...
Seriously though, I'm surprised at how many changes you have made and I'm sure this will be received as one of the best maps released recently.
Yep, the new version is better !
Wow, already a new Quake1 map the first day of 2014 !
The gameplay is so much improved in the new version. Great work, the map is awesome now! AND now I have found 8/13 secrets!
Demo ends with my death by jumping into the blood instead of the exit teleporter. :D
I haven't finished it yet, but here's 3 demos (they follow on from each other, not too long either). There's commentary which has my impressions, mostly positive. Definitely keep it up, this is hella improved from the last map. And if you ever need a beta tester for future maps drop me an email. :)
Played version 2 after dying terribly in the previous build.
Yes, the way the monsters are presented is much better now. First release felt unbalanced. and i managed to find some secrets too!
Still there are a few points to make.
First the light, i found it to bright and/or had too little contrast. As a result the brushwork looks flat. I did nor really see any difference to the first release which is a pity. Good lighting is the key;)
Secondly i noticed you�ve put much work in your floor detailing, i.e. like double-trimming and stuff, but also the floors all felt a bit flat.
Maybe you could have levelled it a bit, not much, 4 units or so. small detail with large effect.
Which brings us too the architecture.
Solid and pretty overall, neat knave vibes goin on, though i noticed some misused textures(Don�t put floor tiles on ceilings!!).
I did not really like the symetric progression, push 2 buttons there, another 2 over there.
Playing soon becomes boring, predictable monster placement due to repeating archtecture is bad.
Big mirrored structures always feel a bit like copy and pasted, but i don�t want too spoil your effort.
And that one rocky outdoor area, ah forget it..
Anyway, don�t take this too serious, its still a nice map, hoping to see more from you as your turtlemap was also very promising!
Keep it up!
where i die at the end;)
i dont think you should listen to much to all the whiners (me included)for instance i completely disagree with mfx issues, most of them are even non issues to me(one is obvious due to me always playing fullbright). But common for a floor to be a ceiling you only need to stand upside down!
Seems to me like you put in a lot of extra work, for 95% the same experience. Some encounters improved a bit some got a bit less imo. But that all comes down to personal preferences.
personaly i prefer everything to be real: no noclipped/invisible stuff/no invisible triggers and if a mosters teleports in there should be a teleporter-structure and most important: if there is a roof there should be possibilitys to go over the roof.
And in the end im still missing one @#^%#$%^&!!secret, probably the same as in the previous build
Anyway hope to see a drake/somethignwicked map by you soon, love that weapon set :)
Here's a demo:
The geometry was nice, very Quoth. The symettry of some areas worked well in that I knew where I could dodge when on the reflected side, but I think you could have mixed up the monsters in such areas a bit.
Monsters were my only real beef with the map at all really. It felt like Ogres should have been Droles in some areas, and Droles should have had drolejumps in others. There were various minor niggles in these areas, but nothing bad. You'll probably get a clearer idea from the demo.
Secrets were good and intuitive, I like how I always saw them clearly and then had to hunt for them.
The end fight was pretty easy, because I had the Quad when the shit hit the fan.
Still felt like there could have been more of an enemy build up here though.
Great work, very promising for your first release.
Excellent Demo, Ijed
I avoided drolejumps in the GK arena because there's 3 shamblers just after, and I've seen that quite a lot of players struggle against Droles (I find them easy and fun to fight, personally). The floor was broken there because the Vermis' projectiles had trouble reaching the player. Since the surface is lower and slanted they travel in a much more efficient manner.
I'll try to break symmetry as much as possible in my next effort. You were very close to finding the quad secret in the room with the red armor too. :p
I liked it in the brushwork!
But the enemies shouldn't have followed it as well, IMO.
Having symmetrical brushwork is vital in CTF maps, because the players need to know what to expect, at least in terms of space, in the other side's base camp - it's going to be too frantic once they get there for them to spend time learning the space.
Here it also worked, but it wasnt frantic enough because I knew exactly where the enemies would be as well.
Droles can easily catch the player out in small or crampt areas, so when used there you need to put in a tonne more health just to be on the safe side.
Their drolejump behaviour I almost take for granted now, and as soon as I hear their rage roar sfx start hammering them even more so they won't be able to start slapping me about the place. Felt weird that they couldn't do it there. But maybe that's just my preconceptions of the mod.
Will Play Tonight
the bookwurm quad? or is there another one near the secret with RA?
except the one i havent found yet, the only one i didnt realy like was the one with the cells (after the bookwurm) i geus those textures are unique in the map but they dont breath an air of being super secret to me:)
and i kinda prefered the secret button wich opened room to quad instead of the rl
nice map especially for a first release.
Agree on comments re lighting not having neough contrast and being a bit flat. Brushwork and texturing were very tasty.
Gameplay was a little boring, I played the fixed version but its still fairly repetitive and not very challenging (at least on medium skill). Also agree that it would have been more fun if the symmetrical areas had asymmetrical/different enemy placement.
DEMO And Rambling
Recorded in RMQ because I started in Fitz V and had some issues early, so bailed.
HOM issues in RMQ which I've had with other maps with complex geometry (cave section).
Skacky this is super fucking nice. Or rather, excellent. A perfectly quoth experience! Thank you for putting so much time and effort in. I'd have to agree that in places the lighting is indeed flat, and there are a couple spots where the visual quality of brushwork /atmosphere generally goes down (RL secret for example). But overall this was a very finely tuned experience, and I'll be coming back to it again for sure.
Didn't die. Got all enemies. got 11 secrets but kind of cheated at end to get 2 after having finished the finale.
Hard is quite challenging in places, Nitin! Agree completely with Ijed re drole situation
Oh, and *PERFECT* fish placement.
About the lighting, I don't think this was down to the lights themselves as such, but more how they broke up over the geometry. In such large spaces it's always going to be hard getting dynamic-looking shadows.
I did remember thinking that if the bookshelves had been recessed and/or had 3d shelving then the shadowing would have been more interesting.
wich client did you use? Fitz crashes on your demo and darkplaces displays it as text in the console, and im not that desperate for that last secret that i am going to try and find it in text :P
I Used Fitz Mark V
Displayed as text in DP? Haven't heard of that before.
Skacky did u watch my demo?
No, sorry, it was on the old and sucky version of the map and thus isn't of much use to me now.
Ijed's demo played correctly on Quakespasm for me, but I've been trying to open Drew's with various ports and it doesn't work, and to be honest I can't be arsed to reinstall RMQ properly right now since it conflicts with another engine I already have installed. I'll try to do that soon though. But thanks for the demos and glad you liked it!
I fucked up and clicked the wrong big 'F' icon on my desktop - I intended to record in standard Fitz0.85 but didn't realise until afterwards I'd hit the wrong one.
Ditch that RMQ client already and use the latest Quakespasm instead. Runs all custom levels, even the BSP2 ones, with all the Fitz flavor. = one less demo compatiblity hurdle for the author.
Ye, map is great...will record another demo of the new version then!
wait, where's the download for the latest version of quakespasm?
Apparently I Played The First Version...
...because the OP link (or the file it links to) hasn't been updated. This needs to be fixed asap! Therefore my feedback is somewhat outdated, but I'm still going to proceed.
The level is huge and it looks very good, proper Knave style. Lighting a bit is flat in places, too many nonstandard light styles I assume, but I didn't mind too much.
Played on hard skill and got through fine, enough ammo and health. Unfortunately I must say, while I didn't hate it, I didn't enjoy the gameplay much, either. It was very grindy in exactly the way I don't like anymore (as mentioned in some other thread a couple of days ago). For the most part, you fight all varieties of knights with weak weapons which ends up being very tedious. The SNG and the RL (even the GL) are given very late - at least the ones in the open, no idea if there any early on in secrets. If anything, I would have prefered some proper weaponry to deal with all those bullet sponges, possibly some artifacts, too. Not much variation in terms of monster veriety overall. Zombies, polyps, maybe more spawns - this would have made it more interesting already. I also found that several setups were symmetrical. Symmetry in architecture is one thing, but then at least modify the enemy encounters so the player doesn't have to play the same fights twice in a row.
Several areas felt a bit unnecessarily backtracky for no reason. Usually there were a few new monsters along the way, but perhaps the areas could have looped into one another more smoothly. The consequence of this and the grind gameplay is that the map felt like it dragged on.
The arena the Vermis fight takes place is doesn't work for this enemy. It's possible to just stay up where you trigger it or on the upper stairs and take it down without being at risk of getting hit. Could have been solved by forcing the player down somehow, or only trigger the Vermis once he's on the lower floor, and locking the upper part during the fight.
I found only three secrets - and they say mine are too well hidden...
The newer version probably addresses many of these things. Should have been fixed (properly tested) to begin with, I guess. Oh well. The way I experienced it, though, the map felt like something that would have fit in nicely with 2005 releases.
Quaketastic File Updated
I've taken the liberty of updating the file on Quaketastic with the newer version (2.0). It is now the same as on Quaddicted.
I say the problem with the vermis is mostly (90%) within the vermis' AI, most maps with it got a safespot
There's actually a newer version located at the the following URL. I saw this posted on the Quakespasm discussion here on Celephais.
Thanks For A Great Map
@skacky: this is really your 1st map? i would take my hat off if i had one :-). played both versions on hard and the second is definitely better. i found only two secrets on the first run but 11 on the second one. they are well hidden but if you pay attention to your surroundings...
i'm maybe wrong but you replaced one invisibility ring with quad. i like it. ring is useless most of the time anyway.
one final quastion to anybody who has experience with mapping. two really big maps were released recently - horde of zendar and this one. i know that quake doesn't like complicated open spaces with lots of details. i have quite good rig to run skacky's map with darkplaces in 1920*1200 with everything maxed except for realtime world and the framerate is almost always 60 /with v-sync on/. horde of zendar is a different story. average fps is like 20 with often drops to 5-7 which makes the level unplayable in dp. i can lower resolution but to no avail. i know that sock's map uses bps2 format, but dp supports it, doesn't it?
i'm not a mapper.. i mean i know the basics..but what makes the sock's map so demanding?
I started the game via Quake Injector. I was playing it normally. Then I quick saved the game by pressing F6. After a while, I pressed F9 to quick load that save point. Quake engine gave this error:
Z_Realloc: failed on allocation of 36864 bytes
Quake Engine: QuakeSpasm 0.85.9
Command line options: None
i know that sock's map uses bps2 format
No, it does not.
Have you tried running Zendar with dynamic lights disabled?
I run quake on a pretty crappy system (even use onboard gfx since i burned my gfx card. but had no trouble running zendar, i do nerve settings a lot i geuss its that or in the parameters in the command line
this is the line i use (dotn ask me what it all does i just builded that command line over the years :)
c:\games\quake\fitzquake_mark_5.exe -hipnotic -game quoth -window -dinput -m_smooth -zone 2048 -heapsize 192000 -mem 256 +set s_khz 44 -bpp 32 -gamma 0.3 +max_edicts 2048
(and that quad replaced by a ring but a different quad just before got removed)
Jakub: it's my second released map for Quake (my first map is a speedmap I'm going to release properly), but I've been designing levels for almost a decade now. Not too certain what makes sock's map demanding on your rig, I can play it without any framerate drops with Fitz 0.85.
hkBattousai: now this is really weird. I'm using QS 0.85.9 too and I don't have this issue. The only things I have in my command line are -hipnotic -game quoth -gl_texturemode gl_nearest_mipmap_linear.
ok.. my mistake.. i was sure i've read somewhere that zendar uses bsp2 version. thanks for clarification. but the question remains. in can run on my pc even the monster warpspasm maps or marcher forters etc... w/out problems. it's some mysterious problem with zendar... no. that's not just zendar. all sock's maps run significantly slower than all other maps. it's just that with zendar i reach new depth of fps drops. dp settings is always the same.
i dissabled everything i could in dp option and zendar still runs like dead snail. i can even totally disable lighting by setting r_fullbright 1 and still no change. there are no monsters in sight and fps is 15-20. map runs ok in quakespasm/fitz. guess zendar doesn't like darplaces.
r_novis 0. that was the fist one i tried.:-)
Sounds Like DP Is Guilty For Something...
Big Post, Board Deleted It (timeout??)
TL, won't rewrite.
Cool map, great quality, good secrets, fair gameplay, needed a bit more challenge / fresh combat.
Hay i really enjoyed this map. i played it on a low skill setting cose im not that good of a player. the only thing i could say i wish i saw that was not in the map would have been a Eddie monster your castle just seems the kind of place he would hang out! outstanding job!
I was able to play it after adding the command line option:
I didn't bother trying for 512 or 1024. It just worked fine for 2048kb zone size.
played this recently, was saving it for when I had time to enjoy it properly. 65 comments, that's it? Deserves way more feedback in my view, overall a great map (more details in forthcoming review).
Is Quaddicted Down Again
works fine here, what is the symptom you see?
This is a masterpiece. It looks amazing (love the lighting and details such as the view through windows), have nice, balanced combat, brilliant secrets, excellent usage of Quoth-resources and a cool ending. A work of art.
Just played it for the first time. I always loved knave maps nad this one is really nice in terms of visuals. The gameplay is good enough. Found 6 secrets, probably will play it again to find some more.
We need more knave maps!
another great map i've yet to play