Too Dark :(
I couldn't see the floor below me for most of the map which made navigating annoying and judging distances for jumps etc very hard.
I like the idea of the map but the implementation left me very frustrated.
I fell into the slime pit by accident because I couldn't see the geometry around that area because it was so dark. The whole slime area then became a giant chore as I would fail a RJ, then have to wait for a biosuit to spawn, then while the biosuit was active, have to run to another section of level to grab and armour and health, then run back to the place where I needed to RJ before the biosuit ran out.
I couldn't even see how the player is meant to get out of that area without performing 3 RJ's (which I didn't have enough health and armour for) so meh :(
Anywa, here is my 1st play demo, although it's not very pretty! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/daz_digs07.rar
map made ​​in such a way that takes into account the amount of health. You just could not find the exit. From that place you can out with 1 rocketjump.
It's nice to know there there is a way out of that area at least. But seriously I can't even see it in the picture you posted :)
on a .ru domain? oh that'll have to be a virus ;)
:) No. It's my personal site. All files uploaded through FTP
I hope you have as much fun watching the demo as I did playing it. Finding the RJs was a lot harder than doing any of them - and usually a lot harder than finding the marked secrets. It was really a bit dark in places. Some of the details were amazing and the fighting gameplay was very good.
Thanks for demos ))
Nice, I like exploration. I even liked the boss.
Just email czg.
Where the fuck are the comments?? People need to be playing this shizzle!!
Nice one, as usual!
Boss fight was nice, how you made it without custom progs.dat?
������ ���� �����!
boss falls through func_hurt with negative damage.
Is there a special method to getting the boss vore into the final trap reliably?? She teleports so much it seems just random as to whether she goes in there in 20 seconds or 20 minutes...
In the central part of the hall, exists are 4 teleport, which are activated when you run through things ( aid kit, rockets, yellow armor). Then the boss will teleport behind your back. But teleports are low. If you lift the boss on a platform, he can not teleport
Okay I Get That.
Cunning set-up. It's a pity that's not made clear to the player (I've played it twice and experimented in that combat for many minutes).
here's first run demo http://vondur.net/files/vdig7.7z
seems maps with potential, but weak lighting and weak hits for player make it too fristrating/boring with progression. was unable to finish because got totally lost.
i'd continue, but overall darkness in the level makes me not wanna do that, sorry. nice idea with respawning items, was helpful with mandatory rjumping.
Hits For Player = Hints For Player
What Vondur Said
is pretty much why I also didn't finish the map. It was just too frustrating / confusing / dark. Sorry.
Sorry not my cup of tea, I found it difficult to see anything (pitch black most of the time) in the map and I could not understand where the primary path was suppose to be.
1. Probably, the main problem lies in the fact that I left a little pointers. I was hoping that the players will be more likely to look up.
2. On the map is almost no those places that do not make sense
3. There's almost no dark places. I noticed that you're shooting in some places, to illuminate your way. And play with gamma 0.8 and I do not need it. You can set a lower value
4. Psychological moment: map has six secrets. But as there is no counter, many do not even try to be careful.
5. and yes, I assumed that the map will be good for research. But probably she was very large. And it was a major problem for this type of map
"There's no almost dark places" - haha.
Will Try It Soon
but on a quickload, its not overly dark at my end.
play with gamma 0.8
MAPS MUST BE DESIGNED FOR GAMMA 1!!!!!!!
Between this and the Dark City screenshots, the safe conclusion is that your monitor is pretty badly calibrated.
first time I hear about it ((
Digs I salute you for trying something different. A bold step and an interesting map. Congrats on doing in a full, well constructed, action-packed map rather than a bland gimmick map.
There's a few obviously great things in this map: A lot of the designs and areas are very good, the detailing and construction is excellent, there's a lot of fun combats and in general it is well balanced and fair, and with 3 major route choices there's plenty of exploration and non-linearity.
The challenge from the RJ progression is interesting. There's a few major factors that make it a challenge:
1. The regular rocket jumps required for progression (14 or 15)
2. The homogenuity of areas making it taxing for players to know where they are and where they have been.
3. The amount of progression paths that are secret-standard hidden.
4. The darkness that exacerbates the challenge in finding the hidden paths.
5. The very hard boss fight.
To treat this map as a pure RJ challenge is to ignore what makes it a challenge so it's worth considering all of those:
1. RJs - I personally did not have a problem with any of these. They were all reasonable height, without any extra movement required in each jump (even the QRJ was reasonable). The health/armour respawns worked well (including the ones before falling down). However it is quite clear that having RJs as essential will greatly reduce the number of players who can play the map.
2. Homogenous areas - I found this a problem as you can see from my demo. Yes all the areas are different but they are not distinctly themed enough to make it clear where you've explored and where you haven't.
3. Hidden progression - again I found this a problem as you can see from my demo, in particular i spent 5-10 minutes wandering around trying to find the 3rd rune button before going on the slim pipe. This is probably not the main problem in itself, it is just made worse by 2. and 4.
4. Very dark - this is a simple fact digs. Compared to the default standard for almost all other Quake maps, this IS too dark. I started on Gamma 0.7 and changed to 0.6, even then there were areas that were very dark and it was too hard to find the progression required.
5. Boss challenge - I think this works okay, I found it okay in the first/second attempt BUT only because I got the Vore onto the platform by random chance. The teleport method you described is NOT known to the player and it should be shown first. Apart from that it is very hard but okay as there is a good warning.
Add all of those together and it's obvious that this could be very frustrating for many players. I enjoyed it personally, because of all the good aspects I mentioned initially, and found aspects 1, 3, and 5 fine, but 2 and 4 were clear problems.
TL,DR: map and combat good, rocket jumps fine, darkness and hard to find areas bad.
One More Thought On RJs.
Would it be possible to have optional jump pads / wind tunnels in all areas where a rocket jump is required, and have a start area with a button where a player can choose to uncover those?? i.e. "RJ Zone" button versus "Jump Pad" button. Then non-rj players could play through the map and still enjoy the rest of it (once the lighting is fixed of course)
Always A Fan Of Smabler's Later Comments...
...the alternate wind tunnels idea is a good one. I've been heavily criticised for confusing routes (Grendel's Keep) but progression in this one has me flumoxed. After 10 minutes of going over the same ground I go noclip, float up, look up at the rest of the level, and say "Awesome looking place! how do I get there legitimately?"
Thanks for comment and etc. I thought about it and decided: in the near future given the comments I change the map. But I can not promise air tunnels.
For sockbler etc.
I take the "thin pipe", "spawn lift", and "big pipe" routes in that order. The rune buttons can be done in any order, all routes are equally balanced. I then muff the MH secret and die at the boss but who gives a shit.
Please note that I don't go down into the slime. That part is not necessary - it is useful to open up the lift so you can go up the ascending slime pipe with the biosuit, BUT it's just as feasible to go up with 100/100. Obviously it's another fun part of the map so worth doing anyway.
pretty long one this time, pff digs what a map! First playthrough took me ages! (couldnt find the ledge wich leads to the are with the button wich leads to penta area)
only found three secrets so no clue if this route makes any sense at all:)
Shambler, thanks for demo
Orbs, thanks and cool
Can you guys do a walkthrough of Digs03? I can't figure out that map lol
well I can see this map fine, keeping in mind it *is* a dark map. I still think those that cant see *anything at all* might have the wrong settings but I will go through calibration again on the weekend.
Will try, yes.
Tp, Sl, Bp In That Order...
...ok, trying now.
I went to max gamma and brightness and still couldn't see anything, so had to go for r_fullbright, which is a shame.
Also played in a b0rky engine so will have to record a demo later on.
You can wait a few days. I improve a map
If You Are Goign To Make Changes:
I's suggest movign the porter at the end battle a bit(or give it a delaY), because its easy to get into porter again and again, and i'd say to have some respawning health at the end ( i actualy think you intend to have respawning health there, but it doesnt atleast not for me (using fitzquake V)
it does respawn, or atleast sometimes sometimes even twce, seems to be soem random factor with it
Sorry, I do not understand. Please write the details (maybe in other words)?
This took me two nights to finish.
time: 70:02 (i got lost a lot and went in a lot of circles)
secrets: 0/0 (but i found two things that claimed to be secrets, plus shot a weird blue-rivet ceiling brush that became brown, but didn't actually find an open door nearby so maybe that wasn't a secret)
I enjoyed solving all of the puzzles that this map put in front of me. Exploration puzzles, jumping puzzles, speed puzzles, etc. All were well conceived and executed. I also really appreciate the nonlinearity.
I spent a lot of time being lost, but actually began to learn the map through my repeated traversals of the same few loops. It feels very open but each of the looped sections is fairly well isolated. I think the biggest confusing factor for me was the group of teleporters that all connected the same 3-4 rooms.
I would suggest making each type of gate unique and consistent in appearance and function. For example gates that open permanently should look different than gates that close after a few seconds.
I also think that a door that says "press 3 buttons" in a map that has 25 buttons doesn't help either. Giving the player some other task like "collect 3 runes" would help keep the different player objectives more distinct.
I was disappointed a couple of times when i rocket jumped to someplace hard to see and hard to get to, but was not rewarded with anything.
wanted to say that I got both a Doom vibe from this and a Super Metroid vibe from it.
Cool Idea, Problematic Execution
Another unique experimental map, much appreciated. Unfortunately, the way it's done is very taxing on the player.
Construction and style are great as usual. A bit dark, but not too much so - although I did increase brightness a little. Shouldn't have used minlight. Combat was fine, not problem with all the items.
The problem is that this maps tries too many things at once, I think. Namely nonstandard movement (RJ), nonlinear secret/puzzle gameplay, and atmospheric style (gloomy light level) all at the same time, which turns into a fatal combination in this case.
The rocketjumping was fine for me. All jumps were managable even if I screwed up occasionally. The repawning items are nice (and essential). Though I can imagine that the rocketjumping may well be a showstopper for players with no multiplayer background. I guess it's just that we take for granted everyone knows how to do it much as things like shambler dancing etc.
The layout felt very confusing to me for some reason. Usually I enjoy nonlinear layouts that allow exploration and multiple routes, but in this map I ran around in circles most of the time. After a while I somewhat got an idea of the areas, but often still couldn't figure out how to get from A to B. What made it even more difficult were things like one-way gates and dead ends - and ultimately the need for puzzle-solving to progress (without having a clear notion of what or where the puzzles were). Felt a bit like a maze.
I think the biggest issue in this sense is the lack of signposting. I don't necessarily mean arrows everywhere, although it would've helped to have some dynamic arrows appear as needed. Visual (and logic) conections are what I'm talking about.
While it's kind of clear one has to find three buttons, none of them is visible before entering the actal room - maybe apart from the one submerged in slime, but even that is too removed from a proper sense of place and direction. So initially, if not most of the time, the player ends up running around thinking "what the hell am I supposed to do here" and "how do I get there". It's counter-intuitive compared to situations where a problem is presented (e.g. button behind bars) and the player has a clear (visual) goal, and possibly an idea of how to approach it. But in this map it often felt fairly random, because there's no clear connection between problem and solution. Sometimes it felt like I was merely stumbling upon the solution. Of course the large size of the map and the openness of the layout adds to the confusion if the player is clueless/without a tangible goal.
It's very hard for the player to make a connection between certain areas and actions. A couple of examples: I would have prefered to have more distinct styles for the different interactable objects. Like the gates that open permanently should look different from those that close again after a moment. Their centerprints aren't helpful, either - rather than "button-controlled", something like "Opened from the other side" would've better for the player's understanding.
The gate puzzle (which is very much digs style, I might add). I didn't even notice that one button opens two gates until someone mentioned "gate PUZZLE". I hadn't made a connection between the teleporter behind the second gate and the one in the locked room in the hub, both somewhat tucked away in a corner. The two teleporters could've been placed more prominently in the rooms and make to look similar, a distinct recognizable style, so the player can make the connection.
The Quad jump. While I sort of got this one quickly, it's another one of those unconnected things. A simple Quad logo (e.g. from the hud graphic) and might have been obvious. Or if there was another crosshair texture beneath the Quad damage pickup - although this may not be strong enough to reinforce the idea. Finding one's way from the Quad back to the slime room is difficult enough.
A trick boss fight is always a nice touch, but when finally reaching it, I was so worn out by the rest of the map that I couldn't be bothered to deal with him. I realized I had to lure him onto the crusher, but it seems like a real chore and also quite deadly, so I shot him for a while even though I kind of knew it was pointless, and eventually just noclipped to the exit. Sorry.
What's the reason that none of the secrets are marked with a secret trigger? Apart from the peculiar fact of being secrets in a secret map... I found a SNG but no idea how I opened the closet.
Bit of a shame there's nothing on top of the industrial area with pipes. I jumped up there several times.
, very painful to watch.
So, yay for a new digs map; good experimentation, but could have been less strennous with a few tweaks. Get more playtesters next time, especially for such a nonstandard level!
Seems like this is one of those levels that only start to shine on the second playthrough.
Yeah, what the FUCK does that blue ceiling bit do? I explored all around that room and adjacent areas in game, then in no clip, and could find "fuck all".
Maybe it is a than-esque "You Fixed it!"
I was hoping that negke would play this and have his soul crushed by the obtuse progression.....which I guess kinda happened, but the result seems to be some really good feedback including great general warnings to mappers about design logic :)
I agree with Shambler's five points. The homegenuity he mentions is probably what made it so hard for me and others to navigate the map with confidence. There are few strong setpieces and together with the gloomy light level it creates the feeling that all looks the same (which it doesn't, but neither does it look different or unique enough to be really memorable) which the "corridor-ness" of the layout ultimately adds to.
metlslime: thanks for comments. Use runes instead of buttons is a good idea. I will do so
negke: thanks for comments and demo. I wanted to make visible 0 secrets to the player did not know how many there are. And in the beginning did not even know about them. It's an experiment. I'll think about how to change the sign for QRJ point.
I also will see what I can do with the rest of the comments.
My main mistake: I had not given test map before release. It began testing one person, but he was too busy. Next time, I'll consider it and ask to test
Replayed it without recording a demo and quicksaving all the time, not dropping into the slime by accident. Suddenly it was much more fun. I would recommend removing that slime "trap" window somehow. And/Or add an item at the bottom of the way out of that slime area so the player has a reason to drop down there and then look for ways out.
Got lost searching the third button and gave up. Too samey for me, I never knew where to go. I was not sure if I was supposed to grenade+rocket jump above the not working shoot button but I did that somehow.
My problem with the map is that it does not clearly sets the new rule of "rocket jumping is needed". If there are so many opportunities to RJ somewhere, I get frustrated and lost, not knowing what to do. Might be less hard with god mode.
Make sure the message at the start does not say "one" rocketjump but "rocketjumps"!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
Spirit's comment is key I think, and also reminds me of Portal 1/2.
At the start of every test chamber was a series of helper images letting you know what you're in for.
You could use a similar idea in your map by putting a special texture on the floor whenever a rocket jump is required for progression, but not for secrets.
That way you clarify the visual language of the level (hello Sock's demon head secrets).
Yes Good Point...
...you mean Sock's Demon Head Secrets where ever single one was opened by a nearby button....except the YA Demon Head secret on the thin ledge in Zendar, which was a shootable door and took me 5 times longer to find than any obscure progression in RJZ??
Or a different Sock's Demon Head Secrets?
SDHS In General
Not ones that changed the visual language and made shamblers sad
Having read some of the comments here I tried two approaches:
1. Played under Quoth and cheated myself a flashlight. This helped fuck all since the flashlight is virtually useless in such open spaces.
2. Played under id1 with sv_gravity 100. This was instantly much better than having to rocketjump everywhere. Haven't beaten it yet, though.
First, teleporters inherently make it more difficult for players to learn the layout of a map, since they pop you between disconnected areas. You lose sense of place and direction. This isn't necessarily bad, but does make the challenge higher.
Second, since you had (i think) 3 different pairs of teleporters, it was even harder to figure out what was what. Perhaps giving each pair of teleporters a unique shape to the frame (like rectangle, diamond, oval) instead of all having basically the same rectangular frames. Or, color-code the frames (or color-code the actual teleport texture) so there's a red, a blue, a green.
Finally, the biggest issues with this map is that as you open up more areas, the challenge of finding a new puzzle gets harder, since there is more area to explore and it seems that the new puzzle could be anywhere, even in areas you've previously visited.
I don't have an ideal solution for this problem. There are plenty of sub-optimal solutions like locking the player in a specific area until they solve the puzzle (which would open the route back to the hub), or by eliminating any puzzle where the solution is "find an unmarked passage" but they would take away some of the uncompromizing "maze" aspect of this map.
I think a better approach would be not to change layout or puzzle design, but to improve navigation by making areas more distinct and the relationships between areas easier to learn.
In addition to Metroid, another game that this level reminds me of a lot is Solstice on the NES. That game had a similar degree of openness and maze/puzzle-focus. It was also broken into fairly distinct areas (castle, garden, dungeon) that had relatively few inter-connections. It also had teleporters. (It also had an auto-map!)
Solstice And Equinox
Echoing some of the sentiments already posted - layout was very confusing at times, some areas were way too dark. I can always appreciate the experimental nature of digs' maps (digs04 is still my all-time favorite q1sp), but I think much like with digs06, this map is just way too big for its own good, which can easily lead to the player wandering around in circles. I did get a bit bored at times.
On the other hand I quite enjoyed the main gimmick of the map, that being rocketjumping, seeing as I love to abuse such tricks in the game, one of the main reasons I love Quake so much. The puzzles were a bit hit and miss, like the one with the buttons opening different doors in order to enter a teleport, but I really enjoyed the pentagram/rocketjump-one. The one at the end with the quad+RA was quite satisfying when figuring out what the solution was, but the problem I found with it was first and foremost the red "target" texture underneath the grating in the slime. This texture typically means "shoot me", and when this resulted in nothing, I was left quite perplexed. It didn't help that I didn't even notice the shaft in the ceiling until after having first wandered around for a few minutes, maybe it could have been made more conspicuous.
The boss fight wasn't too bad in my opinion. Overall I'd say it was an enjoyable map but with some things here and there dragging the experience down, with some changes it could be really good.
Oh, and here's my demo
and very hard!
The visuals were great, I loved the motif of the woven beams in the skylights; made the base feel really oppressive. The colored lighting was also really well done.
The puzzle with the pent was my favourite area.. it was clear that you were supposed to climb to the top of the room, and the jumps were fun.
negke and metl covered most of the things I had trouble with. I cleared out the enemies in the area with the quad fairly early on. I noticed the shootable button you're supposed to quad rocketjump on, but once I found it wasn't a shootable button I just abandoned it and didn't realize it could have another meaning (and didn't look up..), so unfortunately I eventually noclipped on that puzzle.
also it took a while of being lost and looping through the map to notice that the pillar buttons were the 3 I was looking for to trigger the big door. it was satisfying, though, once I figured out the basic arrangement was 3 distinct areas each with a puzzle blocking access to a pillar button.
anyhow thanks for this release!
kaffikopp, ericw thanks for playing and comments.
map updated, link same
1. map now lighter
2. fixed bug with slime space of big slime leak
3. smoothed ('clip' texture) base of buttons. Now going from side to push easier
4. add few guide pointers
5. in Shambler room (before QuadDamage) added 2 item_health for normal and easy, and 1 for other
6. reduce time regeneration for item_health from 5 to 3 seconds
7. fixed seizing of Scrag in the tower
8. fixed vulnerability for first boss on hard and nightmare skills
9. in QRJ point add message "You will have to use a QuadDamage RocketJump"
10. changed messages for closed doors
11. three buttons changed to runes
12. add tranparent label for zone which activate teleports for boss
13. teleports now have different colors
N. other small changes
I'm a little sad that the quad puzzle is now trivial, i really liked that one. But i guess everyone else was stumped on it.
Figuring out what you had to do was what's fun with that puzzle, explaining outright to the player what he has to do removes the puzzle part entirely. As I said the problem for me was that the top shaft wasn't noticeable enough. Maybe just having an arrow on the wall pointing upwards so as to encourage the player to look up would have been enough.
I think it all depends on the person. If he likes puzzles, it will look without pointers. If not, then he needs a clue. Difficult to ensure that everyone is interested
What Metl said. It was a logical puzzle. I think adding a little Quad texture instead of the button would have been perfect.
But Of Course.
Well done for taking on board the feedback and all the other fixes. Hopefully more people will try the map now and enjoy it more.
Should I rename the old version or the new version for Quaddicted?
i didn't record a demo since i watched Shambler's first demos.
had i played without watching those, i think i would've given up early on. i'm a poor rocket jumper in the first place. however, the abundant amount of health/armor regeneration kept me very much alive. i also doubt that i would've figured out the QRJ.
as for the darkness, i didn't have any problems, but i play in the dark on my 47" LED tv with 2 million (or so) contrast ratio. i'm sure that helps.
i didn't beat the boss because of my RJ 'skills.' it was on the platform, & i Rj'ed into the ceiling below the crusher button and died.
Replace the old version to the new
I did that but realised that I should not. If people downloaded it with the Quake Injector they have to manually delete the file from the download cache or they cannot get the new version. I only realised that now, I will not change zips again anymore (unless someone adds some fancy checksum checking to the Injector).
I reverted to the old version for now.
digs07_v2, digs07v2, digs07b, digs07_fixed?
PS: Next time please add a note about what changed in the readme ;)
the name of any
w00t I managed to get to the final boss :D Unfortunately I got crushed by the crusher as it was going back into the ceiling (I was running along the small lip that sticks out just before the crusher part of it).
Seems like it could be a cool fight but I couldn't work out how to get the vore to go into the center. It would teleport around all the time (#tf let me know what causes the teleporting. I had no idea!). The button mechanic seems nice but in practice I bet it could be pretty fiddly. Will have to replay to see.
The lighting is better in the new version but i'd say it is too bright now in some areas and they can look very wasted out as a result. I had no problems seeing where to go (addition of a few helpful arrows was a plus) which was a huge improvement over the original imo.
I like the replacement of the 3 buttons with runes. it feels like more of an accomplishment to collect a rune than press a button! Feels weird not to have 4 runes though :D
Something I felt while playing is that the level could really have been made easier to understand while being potentially more complex with the addition of stronger visual themes to denote each type of jumping mechanic requirement.
For example. You could have used strong red themes (lighting, textures) to show where a pent rocket jump is needed while a blue theme could show where quadded rj's are required. With a suitable intro to each colour theme this could have worked really well to give players an idea of what is required in certain areas without heavy handed text prompts giving the game away completely (example : quad rj text)
I did enjoy the level a lot however. Made me use my brain to figure things out :)
I loved some of the detailing on the walls and ceilings. Some of the boxy lcd panels with wiring and machinery around them looked fantastic.
I will be doing a video of this release when my pc decides to play nice! :P
One more thing.... Obviously you have had a fair bit of criticism for this map, and I think it has been a difficult one for players to get to grips with. But I also think there is a general appreciation of what you've tried to do and how you've pushed the boundaries in a generally high quality way.
In fact after playing this I went back and replayed Digs03-06, and they are all interesting and fun and often with an intriguing challenge that can be frustrating but is always worthwhile. I really appreciate you doing different and "tricky" things, so please keep doing it and please keep coming up with these maps - don't be put off by the criticism but try to use it to make maps that are creative but more manageable for players :)
Get To Da Vidya!
The Best F** Map In The Whole Universe!!!!
This is the best Quake map ever! I played it 4 or 5 times 2 days ago. Today I finished it in the first run, but it took more than a hour of unstoppable play time. Amazing map! Thanks! PS.: U must try it it with the last SMC from Seven!!!
Finally Played This
was a little confusing but nothing a little bit of wandering around didnt alleviate.
More importantly, I found the combats a bit dull and same with a lot of the build quality. Maybe it was the flattish lighting but for every good looking area, there was a few bland looking ones.
Boss fight was pretty nifty though.
and I had to do a lot of reloading in the pent
RJ area, ran out of health the first run through because I wasted pent in zombie room. Even later, I thought there was too many RJs and a few health packs wouldnt have hurt for those that couldnt make the pent last.
From The Screens..
..definitely not my favourite style, but then again I'll take a look :)
Deep Scars Run
Sorry Wrong Video
I've posted a wrong video in comment #83. sorry for my mistake! I'll try to upload and post a new video later on!
...that's the wrong video. The new skins and effects and gimmicks look fucking ridiculous in Quake.
I Like This
I like this. I'm stuck though, so I'll be watching Shambler's demo just enough to see what I'm not noticing.
(Got stuck in the area with the pent and the red button you shoot to causes a platform to come out).
Nice to see a map that rocket jumping is "ok" --- sometimes rocket jumping risks breaking a map.