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Valiant - 32 Map Megawad For Doom
Valiant by Skillsaw is a 32 map (!!) megawad for Doom which contains 5 episodes, new and tweaked weapons and enemies and other things.

Screenshots / DL / etc http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/71704-valiant-wad-my-32-level-mbf-megawad-download-available/

You need a Doom engine such as ZDoom, GZDoom, PrBoom-plus 2.5.1.4(complevel 11), and Eternity in order to play this release.

I have played up to map 6 and am enjoying it immensely!

Mods edit: Looks very good for Doom maps, on Daz's twitch stream.
 
Watching the stream, looks amazing. :) 
Saw This On Doomworld First 
I could play some of it, but I'm too lazy to play trough the entire thing. 
 
Played through the first episode and there's some good level design in this. 
 
He's prob my fav doom mapper right now 
 
Episode 4 was definitely weird and hellish, but I think the actual design that was so great in the previous 3 episodes was missing. The first map for E5 was really promising for the rest of the episode though.

BTW I'm just running through on godmode. Fuck you. 
TEXAS STYLE 
 
Godmode 
feels like a requirement... seriously the start of one of the episodes has you up against like 3 cyberdemons and a spidermastermind and you only have a pistol... like wtf. 
I Beat That One On UV No Godmode 
get on my level scrubbadub!!


...but serioysly you just evade and rely on infighting to slowly wear them down, its a cool idea! 
Wwow You're Some Sorft Of Fps-gOD!!! 
I thought that level was a cool idea too.

The first E5 level was good, not so sure about the rest so far... 
 
It's interesting how design for high-level play makes you realize what's actually possible in the game. When you stop thinking of the cyberdemon as a boss that can only be used in a boss context and just treat it like an extra-large enemy, well, sure, why the hell not have three of them?

The start of that level, with the cyberdemons in the room with you which teleport out as soon as you wake them, was a great way to forewarn the player know they were going to be out there. 
I Just Dont Have The Skill Level 
for this type of play. I am envious of anyone who can do this shit. 
 
Watched Daz play through this entire thing. It's essentially a bullet hell shmup in first person.

Very relevant: http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74 
W00t 
That is a great article 
Yes It Is 
Every time it's posted somewhere I end up reading it all again. 
So Here's Another Recurring Bit Of Games Design Waffle 
 
yeah but the one I posted isn't intolerably fucking obnoxious 
Article. 
Yeah, obvious, but good points, and clearly what is either missing or very mediocrely replicated in modern FPS. 
 
Not really all that obvious in some spots. I liked the point about the locations being so abstract, either as a choice or as a limitation of the tech, that it freed the level designers to focus on tactical situations rather than visual fidelity.

Call the level a "military base". Doesn't really mean anything. Just design it so it's fun to kill monsters in.

These days you have limitations as you can't just blow out a wall or add a column without the design/story team coming down on you for ruining the aesthetic of the airplane hangar or whatever.

They had a lot of freedom to do whatever was best for player movement and gunplay. Would love to get some of that back. 
Argh 
http://s.quickmeme.com/img/67/67724749e771d8fb4eb43c2b73b697f9f38e3d8b03cc0ccd4f10c29ff7da6511.jpg

The key point is that 'fun' is now simply a feature of games development, just like any other - nice artwork, story, theme, multiplayer, multi-platform support etc.

Back then fun wasn't a feature, but the whole reason for making the thing. 
 
Well, be fair, Doom isn't covered in demons and hellfire because they DIDN'T want to make that art. :) 
 
Also multiplayer was a key feature of both Doom and Quake ... 
Hah 
True.

I suppose I mean that games dev has evolved to a state where it can comfortably crawl up its own arse.

Sometimes though a game gets the balance of elements right though, leading all the pretenders to wonder what the magic formula is.

An easy example is mobile and Clash of Clones.

The original idea was probably just "Let's make a multiplayer tower defence game!" 
 
These days you have limitations as you can't just blow out a wall or add a column without the design/story team coming down on you for ruining the aesthetic of the airplane hangar or whatever.

And that's why everything is crates. Generic shape putty!

They're equally appropriate anywhere because they're equally inappropriate anywhere. If there's bad guys, bad guys need supplies, and supplies come in boxes. Boom, I've just explained crates into 100% of game environments. 
Warren. 
Yeah that was one of the points that was pretty obvious to a seasoned Quake fan. It's still a very good point though. 
 
My god... 
Re: #16 
Didn't even look at the articles yet just loved the comment, lol.

Some day when I get time I am going to catch up on Doom releases, hopefully in coop. The gameplay is so fun, even arguably unsurpassed for what it is. THY FLESH CONSUMED was such a great episode; it's so infuriating that Romero was able to design its epic second map in only 6 hours (midnight-dawn); I still remember reading him pointing out in PC Gamer in 1996 that due to 3d and increasing detail map design was now going to take longer and longer and require more work, ie diminishing returns. 
A Less Useful Analysis Of Doom 
courtesy of Chris Crawford, 1994:
http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/the-journal-of-computer/jcgd-volume-7/design-analysis-doom.html

My other complaint is with the tricky timing puzzles. In one example of this, you lower a secret door by walking past a point in a corridor and then you have just a few seconds to run to the door and jump through it before it closes. I am sure that with the appropriate input device this is not too difficult. However, I was using a mouse, and despite my best efforts, I found it almost impossible to get through that damn door. I had to make perhaps ten attempts before I was successful. I suspect that the designers did this with a joystick and found it none too difficult.

heee! 
I'm Just Gonna Post Doom Articles Until I Fall Asleep I Guess 
An expansion on Warren's point about representation:
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2013/12/20-years-of-doom.html


I'm surprised I can't find anyone write about Doom's specific design decisions any more in-depth than LeBreton, though. I want someone who understands this game way more than me to pick apart every monster.

Example: the Arch-Vile's two attacks are perfectly chosen for the tension they create with their overlap - the resurrect means you really really need to focus on it badly, but the blast attack means you really really need to stay out of sight. It makes fighting one an event because you flip back and forth between two opposite states of ohshitohshitohshit. This kind of thing is surely common knowledge to Doom players, but it's written in hundreds of megawads and personal experiences, not in text.

This one comes close:
http://blog.danbo.vg/post/50094276897/the-most-misunderstood-game-of-all-time
(and I'd adore it for no other reason than it opens by calling John Carmack "id's last shred of credibility.") He nicely puts something that's just as true about Quake, which I've always had difficulty articulating: that the player in an FPS like this is fighting the level designer, and even if the enemies are dumb, their arrangement within local architecture and the overall arc of a level is where the intelligence is manifested.

Also, apparently the best Doom level ever is in fact E4M2. Need to scrounge up a copy of TFC again. 
Archvile Attack 
sort of like the opposite of the "shambler dance," since you CAN'T really exploit it easily.

What I liked about TFC, and e4m2 in particular, is how far it took the basic gameplay mechanics and just assumes the player can deal with it; it just throws you into a huge battle right in the open at the start of the map, incorporates not just narrow stairs above lava but even "jumps" that require player agility, and from the start of the map there's just a cyberdemon chilling out guarding the exit. Kind of like Covert Ops for C&C1, this was when the designers were assuming that anyone who bought the expansion was a hardcore veteran of the original game. 
Awesome 
, that second article. Bookmarking his list of recommended doom wads: http://blog.danbo.vg/post/69605500322/some-doom-wads-to-play 
 
Danbo is spot on on his article imo. 
 
I often wonder how much of Doom's design was intentional and how much was id stumbling into it ... 
 
I mean, hear me out ... every game since Doom has had less and less interesting combat.

While I love Quake, the combat is much less interesting than Doom 2. And Doom 3 and RAGE fall even further. I liked RAGE but it's a fairly bog standard shooter by today's standards.

You can't even say it was Romero because, well, he was there for Quake.

So ... 
No Game Designer Can Predict Everything 
And level design, which is extrapolated from the game design, must be emergent to be interesting.

In other words a good game has to be a team effort where the good ideas mix coherently and bad ideas are identified and discarded. Bigger teams can achieve more than smaller ones, but I believe there is a critical mass where you just have too many people and good and bad ideas mix into random sludge.

The QA process is a giant safety net for lazy design - bad ideas got polished up and unfortunately good ideas ten to get marginalized.

Then the designers can rest easy, not having to worry if they used enemy X or powerup Y in the most nuanced and clever way possible.

As id got bigger, their games got less effective.

And there's another thing - considering the amount of interactivity in the latest id creations (when comparing them to Doom) are they more games, or products. 
 
Once the team is big enough, good ideas stop being recognized at all because the only thing that everyone can find acceptable is what no one finds interesting.

Also, Quake's development was far more complicated than just "Romero was there." 
I Tried Making A ZDaemon Coop Server 
But I kept getting a map error involving the need to build or rebuild nodes. does anyone here know how to construct these additional pylons? 
 
Hey, the first two levels are damn cool. Better than those frigging Cacowards. Great up-mix of bog doom2. 
 
Up to map 27. Big arse US launchers, and a few secrets leading to a great easter egg with some nutter.

The whole thing has been great, and only a couple of crazy-hard levels. 
Who Wants Fame, Fortune, Glory ? 
As I was saying in General Abuse there is some serious gold to be made with an actual new "Doom" no matter what the IP/Title of the game.

It is simply baffling that no studio/designer has taken it apart and tried to create a newer version of what Doom actually is.

Ever since Doom came out its all been about the next "Doom killer". My god, why the obsession with "killing" something that works so well ? No one has even gotten close to emulating Doom's strengths, let alone "kill" it...

So much to be done, I ranted off on random ideas on how to "next gen" a so called oldschool game with current tech without obessing on eyecandy. 
Doom Killer? 
Lots of the good doom clones were back in the early 90's. Duke 3d, Blood, Powerslave etc.

Since Half-Life was released people have been more interested in copying that experience. 
 
Lots of the good doom clones were back in the early 90's. Duke 3d, Blood, Powerslave etc.
Yeah, but not as good. Serious Sam sort of tried to up the gameplay, and Duke3d was awesome - but Doom just nailed it.

Last level of Valiant was epic.. but too tough for my sorry arse :|. 
 
Doom was also first and defined the experience. That makes it almost impossible to top. 
 
As much as the Build games are awesome, they do not quite match Doom's monster/weapon/fight styles balance etc.

So Doom clones, no. A clone would means as good as Doom. They were not as good in these same points. And frankly I don't think they were trying for that, they had new things and themes to play with in Build and they are very very fun games, Blood is my number 2 game after Doom but its for different reasons.

Maybe topping it does not have to be the goal here. Maybe a 1:1 gameplay copy with more modern tech and a few additions that do not marr the strengths of the game?
Boring ? Hmmm, maybe... it sure has not been done in 23 years though. So many other things have been redone ad nauseam since then in the games industry. Why not Doom at least ONCE. I agree its stupid to make 25 actual clones, but 1 in 23 years does not seem an exaggeration does it ? 
 
Part of why I don't think Blood, Duke etc are Doom clones is mostly because they use different enemy and weapon philosophy. Just a simple thought: Build Engine games are much more hitscan-based than Doom, which makes them very different and overall much more difficult than Doom in some situations (Blood especially, this game is torture). 
 
Exactly Skacky.

And : Pfft, cakewalk. Blood's secret is jump over the enemies frantically :D 
 
I just have one question. Can you play this map pack in Brutal Doom? 
 
Doom = hilariously fast player + unnaturally slow and clumsy enemies. Try to imagine that with photorealistic graphics.

I don't think that making a faithful clone today would be an easy and straightforward task. 
 
Blood is hard because the Cultists, Fanatics, Acolytes, Zealots, and Priests all idle in the weapon-ready-not-firing stance, meaning that there is a single frame difference from spotting you, and actually firing. Yeah their accuracy is also great, their secondary attacks are strong, the whole going prone AND strafing is tricky - but its that "almost always gets the first shot" that makes them so punishing. Have them idle in a walking frame like Doom, Duke, or Shadow Warrior does and it'd be a much easier game. 
 
Ya, whats the point of the photorealistic graphics there either way dwere ?

Modern tech does not mean de-facto photorealistic crap.

Photorealism is not the only means of using modern tech to create immersion and better gaming experience. 0 loading times, enormous levels, unlimited level building possibilities and enemy quantities, interactive environments, physics, metagames and so on...creativity and imagination are the limit.

Aiming for the "sweetest gfx" really puts a limit as to what gets done with big budgets and latest tech. 
Keep Going, Canute.... 
The tide just eventually might turn back. 
Killes 
With big budgets, you say? Well, good luck marketing that.

Although the idea itself is interesting. I've thought about something like that.

Modern source ports kinda do a similar thing, allowing for much bigger maps and providing a lot more freedom in general. But writing an engine from scratch would probably allow to utilize cycles in a more efficient manner. 
 
 
lol, awesome secret! 
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