|Posted by ionous on 2016/08/21 09:14:34|
|Download (45 MB including Quoth): http://www.quaketastic.com/files/Jam7/MapJam7.zip
Map Jam 7 is a single player Quake experience employing the Quoth mod, comprising of a start map - jam7_start - and five technologically-inclined maps.
Thanks to the mappers that took part:
Please remember to record a demo of yourself playing each level. There's a few first-time mappers here, and I'm sure they'd love to get some feedback on their respective maps.
Congrats to everyone for making the pack, I know I was a bit late in working on a map, but seeing what's in here has inspired me to keep at it.
today are run on nightmare skill to showcase some of the differences.
Probably the map out of the pack that captured the feel of the Than's original closest, a tall, waterlogged IDBase map. Excellent quality build throughout. Combat was balanced, the fight at the top of the ladder had a nice escalation without being too much at once. Wasn't sure I was taking the intended route at times, but the overall idea of decent to turn on the forcefields then ascend to cross them was always clear.
Some very creative setups in this map, the increasingly bizarre dispensers being just one example. There was good use of destructible parts in the map, one example where a fiend smashed through some crates as it leapt stood out. Combat was all about the grenade launcher in my run, being efficient with the shots and knowing when to switch it out. Some of the hordes towards the end were challenging but never unbeatable. I was going to complain about certain sections being too dark, but then I found the flashlight and I guess that was an intentional move.
Another map with some very creative ideas. I won't spoil what the new powerup does, but it's a really neat idea executed well, which suddenly opens up the map in new ways like in a Metroid game. Combat was solid throughout, I appreciated the moments throughout where you could take a moment to plan an attack before things kicked off. The scripted moments in the ending fight also work well.
There are two demos, in the first I die right at the very end, in the second I go back and look for secrets after replaying and doing better, but the second demo is long and probably dull to watch. The map has loads to explore, in the end I got 8/10 secrets and 8/9 rings (but I could see the 9th ring from the intermission! Darn it!).
Solid first effort here, well built rooms and corridors, the control room in particular was very cool and atmospheric. I thought the strong coloured lighting looked good most of the time, there were patches of the map that were too dark - mostly around crates, which were hard to climb as a result.
As you might guess from the huge number of demos, combat was really
tough. Maybe I didn't find enough secrets but I was running with only the LG and shotgun all map, so I had to tackle most fights by retreating to safer ground, and where I was locked in an arena the first attempt was usually not survivable. Still, got there in the end by the skin of my teeth.
Certainly the most impressive looking setpiece of the pack, I also thought the lift sequence at the start was really well put-together - reminded me of the Cassandra Calamity. Everything else was packed with gorgeous curves and not a misalignment in sight! The map had an interesting progression, being very open an undirected, but the monsters were placed well within it to not swamp the player all at once, it felt like something was going on the whole time. Like Negike said, it's a shame there wasn't a way to get more gameplay out of the map, but it was a jam so there's never time for everything.
A demonstration that there is more that one way to die in the start map. Also spoils how to get to nightmare skill.
It can be design flaw from my part that hard skill modes last section after GK. Only way to survive is to know at least 1-2 secrets, and one location that has a lot of large cell packs, so you have to leave from behind ammunition.. try to save cells no matter what.. it can be frustrating I admit that fact. But it's possible, so don't be scared trying it out after playing it couple times on normal mode - if anybody has that much energy to put in just one map (I guess not many) >_>;
Ionous' map simply felt rushed to me, like there wasn't enough time to realize the idea in its entirety. Which is what I'm assuming actually happened. All the non-working doors hint at it.
What's there is very polished, pretty, and enjoyable, it just ends too quickly. I hope there are plans to expand the map still, like some authors did after previous jams.
Demos And Feeback
Ionous: Really liking the architecture here and the overall sheer vastness of the thing, but lighting is a bit flat overall and the layout is obviously bizarre and kind of disjointed due to time constraints. Probably the most normal map of the pack. I liked the use of speedbase in the flooded bits, nice touch.
Vending machines were a very nice touch that really amused me. Map is dark as fuck but very entertaining to explore, even if it's very simple in the end. It reminded me of Hell in a Can if it was made by Digs. Very creative. A couple of things for your next map: don't use 'shoot me' textures if they're not a shootable button, I'm specifically referring to the zombie area and the computers with the targets on them, and display your key doors better with the keycard/key textures next to them.
That one came out of nowhere. By far the most creative of the bunch with some really funny ideas and overall good execution. The ladder physics are kind of finicky but that's beyond your control. Loved the exploration aspect in this one, even though I believe a couple of arrow pointers might have been a good idea. Personally I didn't get too lost but I have a naturally good sense of orientation. Balance was overall pretty good and monster distribution was well thought out. Ammo and health were about perfectly scarce on skill 3. Probably my favorite of the pack. It's very original, plays well and has a very bizarre atmosphere.
Very striking aesthetics that do remind me of the base maps from Doom 64 (mostly due to the dark blue lights), but it's a bit too dark overall. I really enjoyed the fact that the Thunderbolt is the first weapon you find. I liked the silver key dispensers as well, nice touch, even though you should balance their contents a bit more imo. Monster distribution and balance were good... until you nab the gold key, where the map falls apart. You 'force' backtracking and spawn in new monsters (with a very cool Enforcer ambush, by the way) but you don't replenish ammo and health, which is not good. You can't expect a player to play the same as you do since you know the map inside out. I'd recommend either spawning in new items along the way or putting some in monster closets. Secrets were also too hard to find. I managed to get to two of them and found another one but even then it took me quite a while to find it and I couldn't shoot the button because no more ammo. :(
I did not finish this one because I got stuck with no health and no ammo after using the gold key controls.
You should fix that and re-release it, because it has crazy potential and like I said, the map plays fine until the GK.
As usual, pretty damn outlandish. Nothing really crazy to say, it played well and looked pretty interesting. Really dug the sort of heart with blue veins, that was original. Maybe not enough enemies.
Very happy to see so many new faces here, especially when they release maps this good and interesting. Keep on mappin'!
Response To Skacky
I appreciate your points, and it very important to get player point of view as well. I will release fixed/balanced version of the map, not right now, but later maybe this week.. if it's Monday for you already too. It would be very nice to get couple of people playtest it also, maybe I should visit #terrafusion and post test versions there?
thanks to all involved for my daily dose of quake.
that 154 MB void skybox is some kind of hidden elaborate joke? :-)
Just to have a pure black skybox, wasn't think about the file sizes, oh well.
job done, couple kilobytes :P
Bloughsburgh's map was probably my favorite as well. Nothing like a little bit of well-realized optional exploration to keep me interested. The reward was a little disappointing (I didn't get the reference), but finding everything was rewarding in its own way.
My only gripe is that it's very easy to get stuck in the pipe leading to the final encounter. Next time I won't wear a tie.
I played khreathor's map first, and it was pretty trippy. Was annoyed by darkness at first, but after some time it started to feel like a natural part of the map's charm, much like with the level by NewHouse. Since nails are practically free, navigating in the darkest corridor wasn't that hard, and it was something fresh.
Wrecking the environment while blowing up zombies was a nice touch. For some reason I almost expected the whole place to go up at some point - just to deconstruct the eternal trope of the protagonist mindlessly blasting everything with little to no consequence.
Oh, and the secret items near the gold key seem pretty redundant, at least if you visit the gold door first.
Wow, really good so far after playing just one map. I started the second, but I'll save it for later. I started with the slipgate to the left / first level and finished that. I didn't find the one secret. It is amazing this was made in such short time. The brushwork is beautiful and spectacular. I didn't see a nightmare difficulty selection hidden on the start map. It looks like the first map by Ionous does not have a music track selected. I also noticed on the start map that it looks like there is a texture missing if you look out on the edge of the window to the left toward the left.
I didn't see a nightmare difficulty selection hidden on the start map.
It's there, if you really need to reach it and need a hint...look straight up immediately before you enter the room with the slipgates.
Just Watched All Demos
Notes taken. Already have few ideas how to fix and update weak points.
I'm surprised no one found spawn troll trap :D
Yeah you are right, this secret is kinda lame.
Originally this map was supposed to be twice as big.
So if you would get 2nd part of the map (instead of current ending), it would have much more sense.
But my ambition faced reality and I had to cut stuff off to make it on time, but the secret room stayed...
Anyway many thanks for demos and comments!
Keep them coming :)
It seems like I really should use indeed normal lights almost white colors and then adding "gels" "color layers" over them. That way lighting should be much brighter. But of course adding value about 50 - 75 up what I used, but those are just my guess - I have to figure out what works in this case.
Negke - I never checked underwater after lowering the generator...that is some crazy z-fighting. I never really used SKIP but now it makes sense where to sensibly apply it as the base of the falls did bother me at some point. I actually am aware of the void light trick, but since Bob was basically the only enemy to be affected I sort of enjoyed the bright red eyes effect for him.
Still, it would be good to have a primer on the trick as I only dug it out deep within the mapping thread.
Shambler - Another well played run, and it was nice to see Skill 1 this time! I laughed at your reaction to your first safety net fall and when you discovered you were not worthy haha.
Preach - Thank you for the comments, a big part of some of those secrets to work was due to you! (Jumping through rings and making them phase out, sound entities, etc.) Watching the second demo was not dull as I wanted to see what secret hunting looked like. I read somewhere that the player should always start a level without being immediately threaten by danger...even if just for a few seconds.
Dwere - No demo, but thank you for the comments. There is really no reference...yet I guess. The last secret was also present in "A Horse Named Quake" and I intend to always have it in each of my releases. The last secret is just meant to show you conquered my map in terms of exploration I suppose. I did try to test for getting stuck in the wind pipe but apparently not enough!
Skacky - Wow thank you for the comments! To level with you, "A Horse Named Quake" was directly inspired by your "Dysnystaxis" map. So to hear critique from you is something important to me. Bizarre and exploration was definitely something I was going for when creating the map. I will take time to throw markers or pointers at key points in future maps.
I will further watch and comment on any future demos but for now, a few things I will take from this map:
-More visual language in form of "by example" and texture markers.
-Don't rely on a gimmick too heavily for the main path (Ladders)
-Make NoClip/NoTarget runs looking for texture and z-fighting specifically.
-Try to become stuck in the map even if it seems no player would do so.
-Do not assume players will find secrets, even easy ones.
Thank you all!
Thank You All Being Honest.
I just want to thank you all pointing out things that didn't make it quite pleasure to play. I try to be not so blind now on.
I started fixing lighting yesterday, I'm going to make more enemies comes from closets so I can at the same give the meaning where they all come from and also be able to give the player possibility to pick up ammunition from those closets, because simply spawning them to previous areas where they were before could feel a bit weird, and just leaving "enough" cells/shells doesn't work, because people don't like backtracking unless there is no action going on. So maybe it is logical kind of feed the player while giving him more to shoot, going back to find ammo is not good design.
Also things like jumping over one tiny lamp on ground wasn't that great idea, because I didn't explained or made it clear to the player earlier, maybe if I had made one room before everything where you must use something like that to get up boxes.. so now I just place it box so player can just easily go over them and pick up "easy silver key secret".. also I tried to give more lighting to that control center secret button.. I changed two secrets right after main hall door (start of gold key path) where is that blue-ish thing that has couple boxes in middle of it it has one too small button on ground which you can shoot and that opens in front of your nose quad damage secret and in that same place very clear was also rocket launcher secret.. if you jump from top over those boxes that has one door "broken" flashing red lights, there was one button also you can shoot.. so I thought in my head that when player picks up items he could have looked that button that was right in front of their eyes but I guess players are too focused on something else. But I buttons now much bigger and changed texture to "shoot me arrow" button, same what I used in control center area. So there is going to be many changes, but hopefully many of those will make it much more easier to find, when new players want to try it out.
Release will be some kind of 0.5 version, because I had in my plans to extend this map.. but because it has enough length even in this form, maybe it's better to quickly fix and release this attempt as well. I needed to get rid of many parts that were part of the original vision I had, but it really is not that big of a deal really, map works with or without those parts.
Using the criticism given to update your map can only lead to a more improved experience.
Looking forward to your re-release and take your time...no deadline this time! ;)
What A Relief
Yeah, it feels much different, good luck for your mapping too* maybe in next jam is even more people involved.
Looking forward to your new-content too*
It is great to see this first release that even has difficulty settings implemented.
On skill 0, the player seems to get locked in the control center. The bars open when the final 4 monsters are killed. However, two of them are not present on easy. Even after having killed 39/39 enemies, a centerprint says 'only 2 more to go...'.
This should be an easy fix for the upcoming release, which I am very much looking forward to.
Absolutely, thanks for pointing that one out, I didn't even notice. I playtested normal/hard mode only and didn't even touched easy mode I just expected it to work, so I'm terribly sorry something like that happened. But all those will be fixed soon during this week.
Oh the SHAME.
I Played These Maps
they were good.
Welp, that is life I guess. Hopefully I will not make too much frustrated/angry people towards me because of that mistake I made. Though release will gonna fix at least that, and many more problems it had.
If anybody would be interested playtesting today or tomorrow? I will share it through my google drive.
NewHouse, I would be glad to test the map.
Re-Release Ready For Testing*
Here is direct link to current test version:
Requires quoth mod, yet better to replace the ones that are in, if that is possible (I'm not familiar with this stuff yet).
I tweaked balancing, ammunition (feeding player more), and fixing trigger_counter mistake I made - now easy mode works, but it would be great to hear from others too. You can record or just tell how does it feels now. I have to say, because there is only 3 main skill levels I want to satisfy even skillful players. So I'm not quite sure am I giving too much ammunition or not, so let me know and I will try my best.
Also if the map is still too dark, just let me know. As long as the darkness doesn't make the map unplayable - I intended my map to be dark that player can't see everything and enemies can hide in darkness (sometimes).
Another Links Comings
Fixed one flickering light I placed in place, doors don't block lights, and light comes through on ground level if you know what I mean. So it that bothers here is same test version without that flickering light thing:
Also I thought that it might be better to give almost every player change to get rocket launcher, considering that this map is quite hard, because all those enemies. So now rocket launcher is also behind glass doors in control center.. so let me know if or not that is making the map too easy to beat.
Feedback For Newhouse
- Blue key near flame guys
- Megahealth near RL
113 / 115 enemies
on hard difficulty
This playthough was much better than the last, it didn't seem as dark and I get a better feel for the atmosphere you were trying to create. I still feel like it needs more white lights with the coloured lights as accents. But again, much better.
Are the grates in the airduct system you start in supposed to break? because you shoot them and they have the blood particle effect, then nothing.
The battle style in this map is very encounter focused. Rather than having a few tricky mobs along your path, your map has large encounters of mobs. This isn't a judgement of that style of map design, however it does make resource management very tricky. I found that my ammunition would get extremely low, then spike hugely with an ammo cache somewhere.
The only time I had difficulties with ammo this time around was mid game, however I managed to get through this and ended up finishing the game with heaps. In part because I found the RL.
I think it would have been a different story if I had finished without finding the RL. I have mixed emotions with this, the first playthrough I found neither the double barrelled shotgun nor the rocket launcher. I really liked the choice between (normal) shotgun and lightning gun. On the other hand the flexibility that having the extra guns gave was huge. I'm a little torn.
On the blue key secret near the flame guys, the addition of extra light helps see what to do. I would move the smallest crate away from the others so a skill jump is still required to get that one.
It was a much better experience than last time, I enjoyed it a lot more. Keep it up.
Very big thanks Shamblernaut. Which one of glass windows you picked by using that silver key? So you managed to find rocket launcher from behind secret door? Or was it from control center?
Ionous - A real treat for the eyes. A bit on the easy side, but theres no denying the visuals are stunning. There are some spots on the ground that have perfectly square lighting, which seemed a bit odd but didn't detract from the overall experience.
Khreathor - I loved the vending machines, a very novel idea that I took great advantage of. Good use of Quoth's breakable boxes, it always makes a map feel more alive. My only complaint would be the map is too flat, no height variation whatsoever, not even a single staircase. Save for the drop in the sewer though.
Mjb - Climbing waterfalls, who'da thought? I'm sorry to say that I noclipped at a few points because I fell into the void. Of course it wasn't until later that I would have just teleported back up. I felt dumb... I did get lost a few times, just trying to find my way of where to go next. Gameplay was tough but fair, though I did die from the gug at the end.
Newhouse - As others have said, its quite dark, but I assumed that's just the theme of the map, so I went with it. It didn't bother me too much, as I never really got lost. I died a really bizarre way at the end, a shambler just seemed to appear out of nowhere from behind and clobbered me.
Tens - That giant heart set piece was really neat, it gave me the impression I was at the very core of some intense secret underground facility, and I just discovered the truth of whatever had happened. Don't think I didn't notice that awesome owl statue hidden behind the cliff. Monster count was a bit short, a few more could have spiced things up. The map was over before I knew it.
A great effort by all involved! First run demos on hard skill, recorded in Quakespasm: http://qrf.servequake.com/~orl/misc/orl_jam7.7z
Grates bleed maybe because they has trigger that has hp.. not sure about blood.. but there is invisible plate that blocks enemies look raycast thing so they will not spot you immediately.. unless you shoot them or walk through basic trigger.. then trigger kills this viewblock.. it might be something I need to remove after getting RL for example.. even though it is 0.01% possible.. some might try that and shit happens.
The grates kinda look that you can break them. So there's probably enough people who tried to axe or shoot them.
If you are putting those triggers there to block the view of enemies just turn that trigger until a func_wall with something like .001 alpha or similar.
func_wall blocks enemy sight and won't bleed :D
To be honest I want to make them 'grates' be breakable in final attempt. To other end before "GK" path I will put maybe wood or boxes. The way viewblock works, works just fine but I put in might that I could use func_walls as well like I used already in places. And for lighting I indeed should place basic bright white light to increase brightness. I am not very good at colors yet, but very eager to learn new stuff.
I mean I will replace viewblocks by using func_wall if it is possible to set it whole tranparent 0.0%
Full transparent* sorry typos, and also I am on phone.
Why No HUD?
Is there anything about that config file that means I have to use it?
i deleted all *.cfg and *.rc
From memory I grabbed the centre power-up with the blue key.
Also I got the rocket launcher from the bright blue lit corner with the crates that you need to access it.
Thanks, it is good to see people having different decisions other than just super shotgun.. are those lockers equal to each other in your opinion? Yet, in this smaller vision of my attempt, should I place all blue keys before that path to GK, or is it better to keep the last one just for that last vore+sentinel battle (if player finds that last key). I quess Gk path blue key is still too well hidden.
I don't think there's a good reason for that map to be boxed. Just plug windows with sky brushes. If you really need a little space above the transparent ceilings then build a shallow box above them made from sky brushes. It'll look the same in the end and should drastically cut down on vis times.
It's still too dark. You need more (nearly) white lighting, put some wall or ceiling light panels here and there for overall light.
Reduce the range but increase the intensity of the more saturated color accent lighting.
Rethink pulsing and blinking of lights. It's usually better if those styles are not used too much or over too large of an area.
It seems like you use func_trains in places where doors would work as well or better (more control).
Thanks, didn't understood what boxed meant in this content earlier, I thought you were talking about rooms/hallways/layout that is too boxed looking. I'm going to remove that large skybox over everything.. I just start working maps that way so I don't get warnings/errors I am still unexperienced in that sense.
Then again we are talking about artistic choices, which aren't yet that well executed. Only problem with lights is lack of color teory and experience of screen color/brightness default levels/settings. I will do what I can, to make it appeal more core audience that possible has not that good screens or are using very dark settings. But there is limitations what I can do or understand, because most of this is still very new to me.
About doors vs func_train.. only reason why I preferred using func_train over doors was that I couldn't figure out how to make close and open and just stay there when using logic gate. I know -1 makes stay still, but didn't close when I raised goldkeyalert/after vores dropping down in that main area.. it simply didn't close from that open position. But in func_train it has path corners.. for some reason those worked immediately.. if both had -1 in wait key.. I wad able to toggle it almost same way as doors worked.. only problem wad sounds. But then again maybe I am just too unexperienced, but I am eager to know how much control actual func_door has in this case*
Too bad life won't let me play your maps, let alone finishing mine. But one thing is sure:after this one, no more attempts to make long epics. From now on, just short and explorations of themes and ideas. I'm still on greybox, it's gonna be a big one... or at least long to make.
Ionous, I managed to get stuck on pipes after falling from the upper level. You need a clip brush to fill the gap between those pipes and the wall.
Beautiful job everyone.
i just checked your .map file, the pipes made of tris are awesome. And they are hollow?!?
Crazy shit dude.
Pipes are generated from OBJ-2-MAP.
Unfortunately I didn't managed to implement auto convexer on time, that's why I had to use old methodology => each model's face turns into a brush.
It looks messy and it's hard to modify later, but it works :)
i know of the obj2map converter stuff myself a bit to say thats pretty ..... pretty with phong shading.
Good job there!
Somehow I fell into the lava and died the first time I tried to enter nightmare difficulty. I couldn't reproduce it though after a few more tries.
I have recorded demos and done some basic tests on the beta2 version. There are some demos made on the original version too.
Should I post them here along with the results?
I could also send you a mail if you give an email address either here or by sending me a mail (click on my user name).
Recorded In Quakespasm
I sent you message* I should put my email address visible here as well.
Mail with demos etc. sent.
You can give an email address here if you register.
Curious if this release will be also available on Quaddicted in the future? :O
If it will be, it would be nice to know way ahead before it happens. I simply don't want to be only one who made own map impossible to beat in easy mode. Rerelease is different story then, what I am working on right now.
And I assume every should be able to make it 'playable' in that sense.
Really wanted to finish my map but I got busy with other things and just lost steam. Since I didn't finish I figured I'd offer the decency of submitting demos.
Not a huge fan of base maps but really enjoyed what everyone contributed to this jam. Lots of great ideas, solid designs, not a bad map in the jam.
+ Brush pr0n!
- Too short, got a taste of a level then it was over
+ Minimal lighting built great atmosphere
+ Vending machines! This could be a really cool risk vs. reward system in a future map
- Some areas of the map were too dark especially around the doors
- Pitch black hall would have been more interesting had you given the player the flashlight before hand, after the fact it's kind of useless.
+ Nice routing. What's essentially one giant room is routed well to make gameplay fun.
+ Enjoyed the exploration aspect of finding the rings to jump through
+ Great arena fights, I especially liked the first one. (Got stuck going up the second, had to noclip out of a ledge)
- Too much platforming. FP platforming is always tricky and jumping off ladders feels awkward.
- Not sure why you picked the waterfall texture as the platform to latch onto.
+ Solid level design with great detailed brush work
+ The most challenging of the jam (I didn't finish but will upload a new demo with your new version)
+ Silver key system was cool though I only found one
- I like a challenge but lack of items and weapon variety give your map an artificial level of difficulty. I was relying on a lot of in fighting through my playthroughs just to conserve ammo.
- Lighting. Too much colored lighting had me feeling like I was playing through Turok on disco mode. It made everything look way darker than it should have.
+ Nice curvy brush work
+ Big geometric heart looked rad
- Really short. Wish I had more to say.
Demos played on Normal difficulty.
If there could be a heads up of the plan for uploading to Quaddicted I would appreciate it.
If there is some plan for re-worked maps to fix those elusive bugs then I would like to at the very least do two things:
1 - Fix wind pipe to prevent stuck players!
2 - Remove my void skybox and just make a *skyblack texture over it.
But if it is already in the works, no big deal.
Okay, so much for that :p
I think the whole point of a mapjam is that you're forced to complete a map in the given time period, and it's released as-is with the whole package. But there should be no compunctions against releasing an updated version as a standalone--it's been done before, after all!
Haven't had a chance to play these myself, but this weekend, hopefully. I will be sure to play NewHouse's fixed version, and post my comments on Quaddicted!
Do People Even Read The Documentation?
Quoth has had its own void skybox from the very first release.
But that slipped my mind, I read Quoth documentation the first time I installed Quoth...not during this Jam. Regardless, glad I called my skybox void as it worked either way.
I Really Enjoyed NewHouse's Map
Just to say I've really enjoyed NewHouse's map as it is in the (first) mapjam release -- the feedback you've got so far is fair and useful, but just so it doesn't seem like nobody enjoyed the thing, I just wanted to say congrats and thanks!
Grey Skybox/void For Ionous Map?
I'm seeing a solid grey void out of the windows in ionous's map. Is that expected?
Thanks, Jonathan. I really would like at least someone say something good about colors/idea behind them, even though they might not seem that well made.
Dealing with shadows and lights seems like hard thing to execute well. Lighting can be too dark or some people aren't used to fact they don't need to see everything.. that is the purpose of negative space, which I am trying to capture here.
I don't want to sound mean or anything, but shadows will be part of my vision. I have been couple days figuring out how to make blue lights works better gameplay-wise.. colored lights are used strongly in old horror movies, which can look like being in some kind of disco. But colors will play bigger role than just making things visible 100%. My intention is not to highlight every little detail what I put on brush work, so if someone don't like colors used this way, I do appreciate your point but I want to keep my personal main focus the same.
I see that the virtual safety net eluded you among others. This just shows me I need to show by example and not center print...I don't blame people for not trusting the void! Good place overall and you were so close with the Gug!
Good play, you went through the map how I intended and you rarely lost your place...very refreshing to see! You play very well!
To comment on your cons:
Ladders are finicky, I will not be using them as a platforming gimmick along the main route ever again.
I chose waterfalls because I wanted something out of the ordinary...this brings me back to Shadow Man where Michael could climb falls of blood.
Thanks for playing the map and recording a demo. I can't comment much since it ended about 10% through. Perhaps playing on a lower difficulty would have allowed you to experience more of the map!
What was the point of the 'virtual safety net'? When I saw it I assumed it was advising me that if I fell into the void I would not die. If so, you did not need to tell me as I would find out IF I fell. And, by telling me about it, it kind of spoilt the fear factor of manoeuvring close to a void.
I might suggest a small health penalty would be in order if you did fall.
If that was not the point, then I haven't a clue.
Nevertheless, an enjoyable map. Well done.
I don't think that this fear factor is necessarily a good thing. Spending most of the level being afraid of falling, and then discovering that it was pointless, may lead to disappointment.
In general, it's usually a good thing when dying (or suicidal behavior) isn't required to understand the rules of the game.
Into The Void
I assumed it was advising me that if I fell into the void I would not die.
That's basically what the message's purpose was.
The void was not meant to harm or be a risk to the player. They were encouraged to jump around and use it for getting around the map should they choose to explore.
Some demos had people hesitating or ignoring the rings as it would lead to "fatal" drops to the void. So a quick and dirty way was to just flat out tell the player. 50% successful but that's the learning process!
Thank you Mike, glad you enjoyed!
Hey Bloughsburgh, are you going to make bigger version of your jam map, because that would be awesome! I always though water could be used that way, like a lift but you have more control over it, it feels just right imo.
There were a bunch of multiplayer Quake levels back in the day that used water as "ladder". I played maps on lan houses circa 1999 without level art at all: the design was bare minimum to make gameplay work. Ugly as fakk, but some played fairly well. Many of them used a naked water column in the middle of nowhere as a tool to climb up.
to make my map. With a whole section greyboxed, I started to model the real assets. This is a basic corridor, now revised, surface lit and phong shaded:
Sorry, maybe I made typo when using 'could', I know it is been used before, but couldn't get any memory seeing it used same way as in this case. There was one jam map earlier that used bloodwater like a "manual elevator/lift" and it lead to secret.. if I remember correctly.
Looks very well-detailed hallway to me. Are you going to continue this map until it's finished all the way through? It seems interesting.
I am done with my jam 7 map and will not expand upon it in the spirit of Jam. If it comes to it, I might re-vamp it as a standalone using AD.
Adib, are you talking about: https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/shaft29.html
I have ambitious ideas in my head, but I still have trouble making clean and interesting brushwork so it is hard to realize my image when it comes to the editor itself. Lots and lots to learn!
Hahaha, yes, something like that. The tags and the editor rating there are the best!
Yes, I intend to finish and submit it... somehow. Maybe as a jam7 DLC if there is one.
A couple screenshots
I've also got the "grey void behind the windows" problem in this map, but I thought it was some bug in my renderer.
A fresh jam is always good to get the juices flowing.
For the same reasons I didn't used specific glass* texture in my map, instead I use just regular texture with alpha. I guess shininess not just grey has to do something with some tricks I don't know yet? Couple people talked about water combined with glass, or did I heard wrong.
I got the grey void bug too, it was appearing in random places, not just the windows. I was just using Quakespasm though, I'm not sure what the map was tested on. I didn't get very far in the map because it weirded me out...
Pretty cool map
. A bit cinematic, without obstructing the gameplay. Though encounters, and impressive lighting. I still haven't beaten it.
ArrrCee Playing Map Jam 7
He has some problems with running 2 maps... Worth investigating ans helping him to solve this problems.
Seems like not having the patch issue to me, I already responded. It could be something else but the fact the same section broke on your map and mine makes me feel like that is the case.
Yeah It's Quoth Version For Sure
My map is broken too, it's the same issue mentioned before.
Basically every map which used logic gates are broken, if not using the latest Quoth 2.2.
Tens' map was easy, but my engine crashes when I get into the regular dodecahedron structure at the end. Also, lots of visual glitches in the dodecahedron structure as well as in the blue tubes leading to it. Not a fault of the map, of course.
The whole map felt like a prelude to a boss battle.
Video Of Ionous' Map
Here is a video play-through of Ionous' map you guys can check out.
Watch full screen. The video was recorded at the native resolution of the game engine running at 640x480 and 8x anti-aliasing. I used OBS and recorded at large / indistinguishable quality size and the microphone is on so you can hear me while playing.
400 megs, yeah... I'm not gonna bother downloading that.
Upload it to YouTube. YouTube's compression sucks for image quality, but it's way more convenient for watching.
Yes, 640x480 And 8x AA
Killpixel, yes, I think 640x480 is the ideal resolution for classic Doom and Quake One. I think the textures look the best as well as the geometry.
The anti-aliasing just looks better because the textures have pixel smoothing so the edges should be smoothed too. I did some experimenting and found the textures were designed to be run at 640x480 and they look the best at that resolution. I also just love it because I think it is classic and true to the nature of the game, but also the game when it was at its best.
Low resolution with high anti-aliasing looks so much better on a classic game like Quake than higher resolution. I just love it.
I actually made a post on my blog called "What Quake is supposed to look like" with some snapshot comparisons, so I'm very specific about how I like my Quake to look.
That awful .lit pack will never die.
John Carmack himself recommended a r_wateralpha value of 0.6 in the GLQuake readme.
Quake was never supposed to be that blurry; It's impossible to distinguish the individual tiles of the lower floor in your screenshot. Even WinQuake at 320x240 has a better texture definition than that... and the assets in Quake were primarily developed for software rendering.
Quake's software renderer calculates the mipmap scale from the surface vertex that's closest to the camera, so its textures looks as sharp as possible, with some moire artifacts when rendered at non-parallel angles. Hardware renderers goes the other way, calculating the mipmap scale from the point farthest away from the camera, which means that all points closer to the camera will be excessively blurred instead of generating moire artifacts.
So, if you want to have a better taste of "What Quake is supposed to look like", enable anisotropic filtering to get a sharper texture quality.
You should turn off texture filtering too... Blured textures looks like shit.
To Each Their Own
I prefer a more "retro" aesthetic myself. That said, using AA defeats half the purpose of low resolutions. You say the textures look best at that resolution but you're using trilinear filtering in your example (??). I get what you're trying to do, I just think you're doing it, well, wrong.
I just love it.
That's all that matters, do your thing and take my opinion with a grain of salt :)
for what it's worth, this is my quakespasm config:
Yeah, if you go above .6 water alpha it isn't even noticeable I think. .4 is about the lowest and .6 the highest. So, one of those three. I tend to like the crystal clear kind of water like you get in the tropics. So GL.
The blurring on the textures is only in the distance and anti-aliasing does not cause textures to be blurred, it only smooths out edges. The pixel smoothing which is on by default in GL like ports such as QuakeSpasm, but I know you can disable it with a console command.
I don't think QuakeSpasm supports anisotropic filtering. This is how classic GL games looked before anisotropic filtering and I ran GL Quake at the time at 640x480, so that is how it looked. This is part of the classic look.
I prefer the look of the game when it reached full maturity. That is how I played back in the day. In the same way that I played the GL version of Quake I also played the Doom 95 version of Doom the longest which upgraded the resolution to 640x480.
I don't think QuakeSpasm supports anisotropic filtering.
it does :)
If you want the glquake aesthetic *shudders* you probably want to use GL_LINEAR_MIPMAP_LINEAR
I don't think QuakeSpasm supports anisotropic filtering
It does, e.g. "gl_texture_anisotropy 16"
Yeah, at the end of the day, it's personal preference.
Some "classic" Pro Tips For You
"Enjoy" your classic 1997 look.
was going to say you could even use "-bpp 16" for that crunchy voodoo look, but I saw your blog mentioned Mac and QS doesn't seem to be able to get a 16-bit GL context on Mac.
>I prefer the look of the game when it reached full maturity.
GLQuake was never officially finished, and it is unsupported
The only fully mature port of the game is WinQuake. But I give up on stating facts.
Besides, what usually matters the most is the user perspective, and in this sense, "That is how I played back in the day" is what matters.
Some "classic" Pro Tips For You #2
"Enjoy" your classic 1997 look.
And don't forget to turn off "model interpolation"
Yes it can't be stressed enough that the look of crappy old GL Quake is not a "classic look", it's the look of a half-finished tech demo that was idly spunked out on a bored sunday by Carmack.
I do agree that 640x480 is optimal for quake, but yes I agree with others that - good lord - I have no earthly idea why you'd then want texture filtering and AA with that (and to be honest it would be more pleasant having battery acid squirted into my eyes, than to enable that simply ghastly old coloured .lit pack ~ shudder ~)
That said, this is just opinion and please don't take this as personal criticism - the important thing is that each individual can tweak the settings to their taste.
Quake Hitler Strikes Again!
Let me put it this way - I'd rather be chased down by a grizzly bear whilst lost in the woods at night, than play quake with those settings. And after hours of terrified running, I'd trip over a protruding tree root and collapse in a shattered heap as the grizzly bear immediately pounces on me, and proceeds to bugger me senseless. In my last dying seconds of consciousness, as I feel my ruptured bowels filling with rancid ursine semen, literally the only thought going through my head will be "Thank fuck I'm not playing Quake with those settings as described that one time in that thread on func, you know the ones I mean"
In the same way that I played the GL version of Quake I also played the Doom 95 version of Doom the longest which upgraded the resolution to 640x480.
With broken proportions, IIRC (you had to use 640x400 to get the intended look).
And don't forget to turn off "model interpolation"
You're saying it like it's supposed to be on.
What I would do in addition to those settings is to find a way to tell the engine to molest all NPOT art assets into scaled ass.
I Dont Think Quake Hitler Would Let Himself
be buggered by a bear.
Isn't more than 72 breaking the physics?
Elevators hurting your ass etc.
Nope, Not At That Fps (I Think)
I would raise it some more but then things start to break. I use army guy on the first e1m1 elevator as a test.
Had to Google ursine. Humorous and educational!
Finally Played This
demos here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33279452/jam7_demos_daz.zip
There were some nice new ideas in a few of the maps. The one with the yellow rings in particular. With some more hand holding and polish it could be really great.
Ionous map as usual was bonkers detailed but was a bit short and I got stuck as I didn't see a ladder (daz'd it hard)
Rob's map initially was very interesting but ended up being pretty standard. Cool hero prop!
The one where you start in the vents was annoying and I died to 327 backspawned enemies. It was very dark and the start was not good as I stayed in the vent and slowly picked off each enforcer = not fun game play. Cool idea to let the player see various parts of the level in the vents. vent grates looked like they should break but didn't.
The level with the DOOM style area lockdowns and vending machines was cool but also way to dark and no way near enough supplies. Hilarious grenade vending machine. I thought it would give me ammo :)
You can get more than enough ammo from the nail machine. Spend 5, get 50. Rinse and repeat. Also, you can pick up a flashlight somewhere. It should make your life easier. Will you make a YT video of this?
It really made me happy to hear such a positive yet constructive 'good' feedback from you DaZ, it is really nice to hear how much you enjoyed gameplay and its challenge and wasn't annoying at all, such a pro player. And you even enjoyed darkness and colored lights, it sure gave such a creepy cold mood to the atmosphere. And ambushes felt really well done and thought out, yet so challenging compared to map's size. (sarcasm)
Don't worry, hopefully extended version has better everything even for you.
Thanks Daz for playing my map, I have to admit that it was difficult to watch.
However, as you struggled through so did I and I got some nice pieces of feedback from you.
I like the idea of giving the player a "give me" ring so they know what to look for. I also will definitely plan on more visual language in the form of arrow textures and the like.
7 secrets is a pretty good for the first run and what a hilarious ending!
Try out updated version, if you are interested even.
But seriously, there is couple things I need to figure out. BTW it was painful to watch, you just give up literally, and made everything look worse than it is really. And not getting mood at all, it felt like some kind of raging bee ready to attack.. totally not what to do in this specific map.
1) how to make players not running like madman, and more being patient "thief like". A) is it because the distance wasn't long enough or didn't elevator do its job already, how to make it dramatic/scary.
The actual blue color gives a mood of tactical element, am I right? B) I could place there moveblock and send message "wait..", but that is cheap to be honest. I can't force player to jump down, if he is too afraid facing couple more projectiles to be dodged while shooting.
2) I need to remove that blood effect, because it wasn't intended. And since everyone nowadays things they can break everything, it should be breakable even though it wasn't intended, I cut bars only so player can see through them, I didn't wanted to place there windows or something like that.
3) "cheap enforcers" maybe the only part were I didn't pull off good spawning, I just opened door, and spawned them in front of it "like they came from that door", but it indeed needs another door for that.
4) rocketeers are deadly when placed correctly, you just witnessed it.
how to make players not running like madman
This is a tough one because after 20 years I feel like I can handle just about anything a map author throws at me, therefore there isn't really much fear of tearing it around a level and activating all the enemies. With that said, certain levels do get me to slow down and pay attention to the environments. Generally any Sock map achieves this because there is always something to find (secret, a shortcut, etc) which requires some study and thought.
The actual blue color gives a mood of tactical element, am I right?
I didn't feel that at all. Sorry :)
I can't force player to jump down
I think the solution would be to place the enforcers so that they cant see the player up in the vent, then see them once they drop down into the room.
everyone nowadays things they can break everything
It was the detail of the bars and the blood effect on first hit that made me think they would be breakable. If they looked more sturdy it wouldn't have been an issue.
cheap enforcers + rocketeers
The problem with this part was that I was already engaged in front of me and all my attention was there, and iirc there was no in indication of anything happening behind me until I had laser bolts up my arse.
I think the ambush could work but you need to afford the player some anticipation of it happening with some sort of environmental que, be it sound or visual (or both).
Sorry I didn't continue after that. Situations like that in levels feel really cheap to me and really grind my gears so I moved on.
regarding part one, the quake ai isn't really geared up toward waiting because of the proximity aggression.
what you might consider doing is showing the player the path of the enemies first, so that they can then choose to fight or wait till they pass.
Sorry, replace "waiting" for "stealth" in my first sentence.
Shamblernaut & DaZ
Thanks that makes it bit more clear how to continue working on these features.
One of the problems was this, in the beginning (while you being inside vents), enforcers(other enemies) can't see you until you touch trigger which kills viewblock. But if player runs over it, there is no viewblock and this happens. One thing is that player always running (default), what makes it harder to start slowly. Anyway, if player waits and follows, you can see enforcers marching to that other room with pillars.. grate's had cut bars, so player can focus their eyes on important things like "oh there is lighting gun", "..but there seems to be workers waiting for me".
'Enforcers from behind' I added sounds to those doors, so in updated version you should hear door opening noice behind you. But other than that, it is pretty much the same, it was meant to be a bit unfair situation.. because the following part is something, you need to be prepared to.
next jam theme pls
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