Tsk tsk tsk.
Also, your AD version is obsolete.
Oh, and apologies for my map, but my creative drive died on the map two weeks ago. Even making something vaguely playable was difficult.
Not sure I get the point of Hackopolis. The last map of Requiem got some flak for being a blatant retelling of an id1 map, but it looks like Gloomier Keep in comparison to this one.
Considering the theme of the jam, I was constantly waiting for some kind of a twist that would justify the map's inclusion, but then it simply ended (in exactly the same way the original map ended), and that was it.
Wow, That Was Quick!
The delay between deadline and release, I mean...
So, you guys may have noticed that I haven't submitted my soundtrack. Well it's still a work-in-progress. I've struggled a bit to find good enough free upright bass samples and it put some delay in the creative process. I'll upload it when it's done but you'll have to play it manually (unless Shamblernaut is willing to release a patch).
Going To Play Through This In Thirty Minutes
Is this release bugged? I can't use the start map, it says to "Enter The Movie" but if I run up to the screen and bump into it or hit it with my axe nothing happens. I have to use the console to load the levels.
Also, both newhouse and ionous's maps start the player off with only an axe. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not. And are the zombies meant to be invisible on ionous's map? they show up if I use fullbright, but playing normally makes it a pretty... well, it doesn't feel like it's meant to be like that. Maybe i'm wrong, but still.
I'm waiting to play through those two maps until I find out if they're working properly or not, I don't want to sour my impressions with a buggy version.
If you're tired of seeing redundant looping of several guns' firing animation, put this player.qc in my_progs (graciously not removed from the package) and run FTEQCC from that folder.
I'm not a "real" programmer, and I felt that this patch merely cured the symptoms, but I'm yet to see it break anything.
I can't use the start map, it says to "Enter The Movie" but if I run up to the screen and bump into it or hit it with my axe nothing happens.
Choose the level by axing the relevant movie poster in the lobby (or in the back alley). Then you'll be able to enter the movie.
Also, both newhouse and ionous's maps start the player off with only an axe.
I'm assuming it's intentional. These maps took on a deliberate survival tone, it seems.
It is intentional for NewHouse at least - I remember him asking how to do that in the other thread.
I'd say it might be intentional for ionous's map, but I doubt it for NewHouse - you start the map collecting a ton of ammo for weapons you don't have, and in my case doing so while trying to dodge the shots of one of those flying enemies (i get the feeling that wasn't supposed to happen though).
Later in the map, still with no weapons, I was dropped into a pit full of fiends... I lasted about all of 2 seconds there :/
You're simply collecting ammo for later. There are also a lot of powerups lying out in the open, but you're not supposed to take those yet, because there's no one to fight (there's even a message clearly stating that).
Falling in the fiend pit is supposed to kill you. You need to get to the other side without falling. A little unfair, but makes sense.
He explicitely states he took the player's shotgun away.
He also said a few days ago that he had to cut some stuff off to make the deadline, so if the map is unbalanced it's understandable.
Well, considering the fact that it seemed to be working as intended... I gave the map another go, and it was great! I did manage to find about 4 secrets, which gave me a few weapons early on and allowed me to kill the fiend horde in the pit (although I also figured out how not to fall in anyway), and after that point I found myself really enjoying the level. Great stuff :)
So... No Khreathor Or Skacky Map?
Damn, the latter had by far the most Noir title of the lot, it's a pity it's not in there. Will Skacky release it as a DLC later?
I intentionally removed shotgun, I wanted to player focus more on widowmaker shotgun and more on close combat as much as possible. Every backpack have 30 shells per, which means 10 shots for that gun.
Unfortunately backpacks doesn't look how much ammo player already have, if I could make the same thing with regular shellboxes.. that would be great!
Every Zombie in a city center is sleeping or paralyzed until the Gold Keycard is picked. I wanted to make that place non-dangerous first so player can use their plans how to easily survive in that place.
Nice to hear you gave the map another go*
Map pack should not come with config.cfg
I have recorded some demos (Quakespasm), but still fighting with Newhouse's map on Nightmare, almost got it... (will be ready 17.10.2016 at evening)
Demo for Ionous
Demo for Pritchard
Demo for Shamblernaut
Demo for NewHouse
... and even Startmap Demo :D
I'll write few comments tomorrow!
The start map was fantastic and was a great representation of the theme. I wouldn't have figured out to whack the posters if I didn't read the post saying so.
Your entry is e1m3 but with details taken out to become more linear? I am not sure what I am supposed to get here but the black and white do not compliment the map. As dwere said, I was waiting for some twist but no twist comes!
Holy cow how much time did you put into this? This is a full fledged, high detailed map and there is some intense brutality emanating from the map. Loved the eerie beginning where you can get your bearings and the use of noir lighting was used really well. Actually a bit creepy! Super hard on Skill 2 but the fight with the vores is intense! I forgot to re-record after my third death so unfortunately it ends there...but I did finish it!
Night of the Living dead, I see it but the execution is poor. The use of lighting to make the church dimly lit with streaks of sun spot was well done. I think any map can benefit from music, just pick one!
Great work, this felt like it used the most of the theme and guidelines to me and thus takes the cake. Great use of breakables, AD entities, and monsters. I can appreciate the early gun map, where the big toughies to a break from once! Strange ending where it seems we are entering a tomb of some sort...it has me intrigued!
Great job guys, I would have liked to see more use of the noir theme by some of you and one large disappointment I found is the severe lack of AD in this AD jam. Pritchard's map was really the only one I could tell AD was thoroughly used. NewHouse comes in a close second because there was some good use of breakables in there as well.
Watching you break every box was pretty funny. I hope you liked my map khreathor, it was good to see how someone else handled some of the encounters. I await your comments eagerly...
I think in the future i'd definitely want to put more health in....
Didn't refresh before posting, so i missed seeing Bloughsburgh's post.
I'm glad you liked my map so much! Unfortunately the ending is a bit weird, I basically ran out of time and ideas for how to end it properly. In an ideal world you'd probably be fighting your way out to a car on the street or some other setpiece, but as it is you're just killing the big bad and that's it. (Imagine that they're wearing a tux and fedora!)
I really wanted to add more small details like newspapers and more cardboard boxes(those would be breakable).. Though I wanted to keep these boxes I used in map unbreakable, otherwise it would be too easy to just break everything in your way and not requiring jumping skills that much (I like jumping), but that is just my opinion. Some people really do like breaking things*
I must say, the textures look about as rough as I expected.
Grey blood makes it hard to see if you're hitting anything, and subconsciously looks like nothing takes any damage.
I'm almost compelled to pick this thing apart to try and remedy the aforementioned issues, but I'm not sure it would be worth it, considering that there are only four maps, two of which don't even follow the theme.
In any case, thanks to Shamblernaut for organizing this thing, and I hope to see at least a few more maps of this kind in the near future, as it is a very interesting and unexplored theme indeed.
Things like, when you hit breakable walls there is different colored effect from it, couple people didn't realize they were doing any damage to some brick walls (semi secrets/secrets). With colors if you hit breakable wall (brick wall), there is brown smoke thing coming out after hit. In regular walls case the color is just grey.
I can't speak to the other's work, but you can remove the palette file from gfx to play my map in colour (I built it with regular textures rather than desaturated ones). I almost prefer to do that, just because, like you said, it can be hard to make out details otherwise.
Well in my case, it should be easier to play in a normal way.. though it will be a bit of stylished because I used desaturated textures. But everything else is colored: enemies, effects.. and these effects especially:
So With Regards To The Inclusion Of My Jam Map
The sole reason why I included it at all was because we only had three entries by release date and I wanted the jam to have some padding.
I was just using it to play around with the idea of (quite literally) linear gameplay.
It was never actually intended to be released :)
Tried to play this jam in Darkplaces but it doesn't seem to load the palette. Do I need to put it in \id1?
Palette hacks are for us 8-bit old farts. True color replacement graphics won't be affected.
Your demo is uploaded, see links above.
All demos are on nightmare.
I will upload them on youtube too.
I felt like I didn't' give your map enough credit from my initial post.
You use AD entities well when it came to ambiance. Plenty of light sparks, breakables, models to show for it. I think the centurion and the zombie knight are the only AD monsters seen however.
I also found you could get stuck in a few places if you try to backtrack (I make note of some on the demo)
Thanks for your words.
It surely is possible that I wasn't able to find all of the places where you could get stuck. I want to point out one thing though, in ionous stream he simple didn't notice he could break bricks that were in front of one secret gun (plasma gun). And also after breaking one secret wall inside that old factory, even if you fail trying to jump to other side where quad damage was, stair bricks push out from wall near this yellow armor secret so player can jump up back by using those.. but I am sorry that I didn't lit it well enough for the player.
Another thing I want to point out is that.. I couldn't use this ganster/mafia theme because it doesn't fit together with my upcomming whole lenght episode... so I made something I could use even..
So I really hope it could be possible quake future city like ones in doom2, remember downtown map and also map from the plutonia experiment "Odyssey of noises". Unfortunately that was maybe too much, there wasn't enough time for the bigger map
Playing my map on Darkplaces is not good idea unless you will not get mad that I used invisible textures at least in one place, because the simple skip texture give me so much trouble to place between one button and bricks.
Some very impressive work, but:
a) what happened to those grunts-with-fedoras (I think khreathor made them)? They would have worked really well in Pritchard's map.
...and, more importantly:
b) I don't get the whole business with using desaturated textures AND a custom palette. I found that *almost* everything is improved by deleting the palette file: the contrast between the b&w visuals and the coloured HUD/enemies/pickups is what makes it work; if everything is grey it just becomes oppressive. Pritchard's map looks better in colour (without losing any of its "noir" vibe).
The only exception is the start map: why oh why was it textured only partly in b&w? As is stands, either you have to play it with the palette, in which case the desaturated textures are pointless, or you delete the palette and it looks bad, because it wasn't consistently textured in b&w.
I'm sorry if this sounds negative. There is a lot that is very impressive here -- that start map is beautifully made, for instance -- but it could have been so much nicer...
"a) what happened to those grunts-with-fedoras (I think khreathor made them)? They would have worked really well in Pritchard's map."
Totally agree with you. After all it was.. only map with grunts after all? So it wouldn't affect on other maps or themes.
It's me who you want to blame... Unfortunately I haven't finished grunts, but I'm slowly working on Gangsters mod.
If Pritchard will be interested in extending his map, I would love to add it as one of the maps in mod.
Khreathor & Bloughsburgh
Thanks for your demo khreathor, it was pretty fun to watch ;) unfortunately I can't much help through that phone. But certainly see couple parts I should put more thought about now that I have more time for this this map.
This second scene after first spiders in old factory where suddenly lights went off, earth starts shaking(earthquake), lights's cover glass breaking in over you and fiends appearing when lights turn on below you, I really need to extend that glass floor a bit so players will not out run that intended 'cinematic jumpscare' scene. If you stop and try to act like normal human would be in "real" situation, that scene would make whole lot of sense* But I really need to try to execute in a different way, maybe adding more on scripting so it indicates which type of player you are -> careful/slow or wild/speed runner.
In my school I talked about this situation how to make it much more understandable.. one person suggested to add falling building structure that would break the glass.. sure it would be a lot like in this case that it will be falling in front of you like in this case but the visual message should be much more fair that way.
Stupid me just thought people would already worry about ground, because in the beginning player had to worry not fall down to lava pit, worry not die while running over that subway hallway and in both cases there were earthquake and something happened on the floor making it dangerous, but maybe there were too much pause between those scenes. It is hard to see what people are thinking just by watching demos, but those are better than nothing and I really appreciate them.
Thanks for everyone so far sending these demos*
How long does it usually take for a release like this to show up on Quaddicted? It'd be the easiest way to get my less quake-literate friends to play, thanks to the Quake Injector.
I'll share with you NewHouse, what my player mind was thinking during the fiend pit scare:
The first screen shake section encouraged the player to run fast to escape the breaking floor. So with that in mind, the next time the screen shakes, I figured I need to run because the floor is crumbling beneath me. Now add that it is extremely dark in this section and you have a recipe for fiend soup...er well...fiend's soup.
But an unintentional side effect I am sure, I used my brain and grabbed the pentagram and used that to tackle the pit head on!
Your map had some crazy stuff going on with it and it is certainly one of the showstoppers in the jam.
Actually now it makes a lot of sense. Though I am not quite sure yet how to make it for the extended version. I really thought that darkness would make the player stop and think... but there was too much light.. and I can only assume that was their focus in that moment (even though they might not have notice that, because something like that happens really fast).
Your jam map seemed very close combat focused which I liked a lot* Beginning & Ending parts were the most memorable and very good pacing in overall. Maybe too much hogres in a sense.. since hogre is z aware ogre, so it would have benefit more.. placing couple of them higher than the player or lower.. but other than that basic game flow felt really good. Is this really your first release?
If someone would be interested, I'm making one tweaked version during this week, so if you're interested play testing just let me know, my email should be on my profile.
My Few Thoughts...
Shamblernaut: First of all you have a big slap in your face for not making this start map as a regular map. Well done, but you could make it much better with enemies and some cool gameplay! Idea of cinema is awesome. I had a similar idea, but in mine player enters huge old 50s TVs to select a map, anyway cinema is much better, so big + for that.
So... The Hackopolis... It's a nice map, cool remix, but doesn't fit the theme ;)
Pritchard: Very good map. I love usage of destructibles in it. Crates, exploding walls etc. Another good thing was texture choice, it built atmosphere very nice. You should try to set some thin fog, to give this "cold night" chill vibe to it. Anyway it's probably my favorite map from this pack and sorry you didn't got my modified models. Now I see what you meant, when you mentioned of a Shambler with fedora and suit. We can always fix this and you can release it as a separate map.
NewHouse: This map has nothing to do with Noir... but is good and well designed. It kinda reminds me of Bloughsburgh entry from the jam7. Simple clean brushwork, with little details, but quite complex map topology.
I had no problems with "fiends pit". I instantly recognized there is something wrong with this floor, so I slowly moved on the edge near the wall. No surprises. The "falling apart street" was a different story. First time I played this map, catapulted from the hole directly on top of the street and then earthquake started and I just died in lava - lesson learned. Another thing was this underground passage with a floor mixed with lava. It was annoying, especially when zombies woke up.
Nightmare was super hard, but after few retries I finally found a recipe how to finish it :)
Ionous: Concept is good, you should finish it. I haven't found the secret, but I saw vod of your stream, so now I know where it is :D
To sum it up... good job guys! I just have one conclusion:
We shouldn't make jams too often. It can drain energy and creativity too fast. Another thing is to announce a jam one month earlier, so people can schedule time for mapping.
Technical aspects should be ironed out early as well (so no rekt textures or anything like that).
So My Turn To Comment On The Jam.
What a smashing (hehe) map. I really liked the execution. I wish khreathor's model was available for the jam. Oh well. We'll just have to wait for his mod then make him some maps :)
I think you balanced this quite well, but it is worth mentioning: There is a danger with too many movement obstructing objects (breakables in this case) that gameplay will slow down. Also giving the player too much geometry to exploit the weak quake enemy "AI". I thought that this could have been an issue, particularly earlier in the map where there are cramped rooms.
Pretty amazing job man. Well done.
Lots of people have been saying that your map doesn't fit the theme. I sorta think it dips its toe in the theme then backs out. The execution of the map, like Pritchards was extremely well done. A huge map considering the time frame.
I know you've put a lot of effort into the map and it shows. I have a little feedback though. I felt like the pacing was a little off. There is foreshadowing with the eliminators? (flying enforcers) and the zombies, but then there aren't many encounters until the zombies awaken. I would have liked to have seen the zombies (maybe one or two from each group) awaken a little earlier and then maybe scale up in numbers later. I'm not sure.
Overall I loved the theme of your map, noir or not. I liked the contrast between the tech and the brickwork city.
I have one complaint, and it is a stylistic one, rather than anything important. I hate the entrance to your map. It was the same in your last map aswell. Something about it just really frustrates me. So, take that with a grain of salt :)
What can I say man, I want to play a full version of the map, the concept is great, and having you explain it in your playthrough really sold me as to how it could work when executed well. I didn't find the breakable secret because I tried breaking a couple of the black walls and they didn't break. I didn't notice any difference in the breakable one to make me think I could. I guess that is part and parcel of a rushed map.
So all in all, thanks guys. You created some really interesting "worlds", to the point where I want to know more about each of them. That should say something about what you were able to achieve.
I really like when people are able to tell a story through something so simple.
...very well executed b&w theme.
Black future is the absolute pearl here, awesome in oh so many ways. Been a long time since I experienced such tension in a Quake map.
Buried by Time and Dust - kinda nice, not very much to do, great sense of place.
One Ranger Two Boomsticks - definitely has its moments and does a good job of making you forget the funky taylor those space age gangsters use. Ogres charging through doors preceded by a mob of grunts are awesome.
Hackeropolis - brought back shivers of one of the absolute best Quake levels ever. Unfortunately, it crashed 4 times Quakespasm on me when I tried to Quicksave. Did not restart it the fifth time.
The start map is all kinds of awesome.
All in all, feels a bit like Painkiller: disjointed levels with brutal action and some tricky parts.
And I like it. Especially the start map, wandering into an old cinema felt so satisfying.
Pritchard - Most faithful to the theme. All of the breakable doors and boxes and windows really made it feel alive, and you captured the film noir essence very well.
Ionous - An interesting premise, I just wish there was some combat to go along. Breaking into an abandoned building was neat, but nothing but zombies and an axe to fight them off with, kind of ruined it for me.
Newhouse - Quite a large map for a jam, shows you worked hard on it. I managed to avoid the fiend pit the first time purely by luck, which had I fallen victim to I might not have been able to finish the map alive.
Shamblernaut - What.
The black and white color palette may have gotten stale after awhile, but the film noir theme is really unique, and I wouldn't mind seeing more it. It's nice to see new environments in Quake for a change, even if it doesn't always work. Good job everyone.
Yep, first finished Quake map! I've released a few maps for Cube 2 and Tesseract (Cube 3?) in the past but this was my first finished product for this game. I'd definitely say my experience working in that engine helped me a lot when figuring out what kind of quality I wanted, and although working with brushes is quite different, I don't think I'd want to go back to how those games do it...
I wouldn't mind coming back to this map and extending it if it's possible to include it in your mod release, although as time went on I began to include more and more AD entities (the elevator is something i'm quite proud of, and AD allowed me to turn what was a map hack into something more sensible), so you'd either have to borrow a fair bit from that mod or reimpliment it yourself for it to be compatible.
I totally get what you mean about the risks of my map. I think if I were to do it again I'd probably change the design of the double doors especially; it's too hard to get through them if only one or two sections are broken. I tried to hold off using them excessively for that reason, and having monsters target and destroy them (that's a pretty cool feature!) if they're in the way helps a lot with saving the player from having to axe their way through too much.
Personally I think the AI handled the smaller areas pretty well, the biggest issue being the grunts' tendency to run away rather than through the hole that gets broken in the wall in the office. I could have polished that up with a monsterjump to make them leap through when it breaks, but that probably would have been tricky to get right and I never tried. The area with the troughs turned out pretty well though, the biggest issue being that sometimes the monsters there trigger early if they spot you through a pixel or something...
I'm glad you liked it! I'm also glad that you actually saw the door being charged through, watching demos etc. a lot of people missed it as they didn't commit to that section of the warehouse and instead hung back as they finished the first set of enemies, which meant they didn't get to see the others arrive...
It's funny that i'm getting this feedback so much; that I captured the theme so well. I really wasn't expecting to, since aside from a few neo-noir films (Scarface, the newer one etc.) I don't actually know that much about the genre or what makes it tick. I guess I lucked out!
I'm definately going to make an different entrance to my map, this was just the temporary solution to be honest. Like iounous mentioned about it in his stream, it felt like it was kind of added during the last minutes.
About zombies, in a city center. There will be couple alive even first time visiting that area, but just in a shake of demonstrating couple mechanisms which I couldn't have as enough time as needed. Basically for this version there is 2 places where you can shoot part of the tech structure (ones that sparks so much, smoke or are even in flames). When those tech/pipe things explode those would kill so many zombies at once. It will be a bit technical part of the gameplay.. can you use the environment and be clever. It will need a lot of work.
I was thinking to demonstrate it by showing it in front of the player when player enters the city center first time.. zombie(s) wakes up, smoke+sparks coming from this specific brakable tech thing and kaboom. Player might wonder what happened first.. and maybe right after that just letting there be one of those things without any danger (just pure curiosity.. maybe I will try to shoot those things.. and then player experience the "Eureka" moment)
I keep that in mind, that's why it need some proper planing and designing from my side. No rush.
I want to make everything to work as expected, so you don't have to spend some extra work on this.
Running DarkP at 1920 is very choppy - which engine do you recommend?
Have you tried Quakespasm?
I made a 2nd DP install without the fancy textures and it works well now... mostly.
1. In the start map, the car poster to the right of the gas station (where there's the Diesel sign) flickers and disappears in the distance like it's sharing the same space with the wall brush behind it.
2. In NewHouse's map, the teleporter at the beginning doesn't work properly and sends you back in front of it. Please fix this for the updated version, I want to play this map with DP's superior lighting - speaking of, is it normal that I'm seeing some blueish lights in both DP and QS?
It is generally not a good idea to design a map for one specific engine. Keep that in mind for future releases. BTW, what happened to the music you wanted to use? Oh and don't worry, the latest DP build does support alpha masked textures.
Quakespasm 0.92, on the other hand, brings another issue: I have to load levels manually via a console command because entering the movie doesn't work.
Unfortunately, mappers for Quake can't afford QA teams /s
The fact of the matter is that DP breaks a lot of things vs. other engines, I mean it has a whole set of cvars to revert behaviour changes (I wonder if fiddling with those would help your problems? I'm not familiar with them at all), sv_gameplayfix_*, just so that it can be made to work more or less like the original engines.
The outcome of this is that people who don't test against DP (like myself, I did try loading my map in it for a lark but I never played it all the way through) tend to produce maps that won't compensate for its quirks. There's a reason I only listed one engine as "Designed and Tested for" in my readme.
Anyway, minirant that's been said a thousand times before over...
There are a few coloured textures in map, specifically anything that wasn't touched by the palette such as fullbrights (this can be seen on the various mdl light fittings, which have blue and yellow tints), and I think the start of NewHouse's map is supposed to have coloured lighting. .lit information isn't affected by the palette, but no one seems to have been brave enough to use it to add colour highlights anywhere other than NewHouse, and they did it quite subtly.
It's interesting that you're having those other issues especially though, since I've had none of them. The car poster sits a good few units away from the wall in my copy of the start map, which is strange since that doesn't match your description of it. And although I didn't get that you're supposed to attack the movie posters to select the film which made me think something was broken, once someone told me it worked fine.
The only difference that I can think of is that you said 0.92 rather than 0.92.1 for your QS version, but I'm not sure what changed and I doubt it was anything so significant. Weird stuff...
I get a 'not type 2 or 10 error' with Spas but that might not be the maps fault...even at 1280 with DarkP it's choppy...
Try: r_useportalculling 0 in Darkplaces and let me know if it helped with a case of flickering.
It is generally not a good idea to design a map for one specific engine.
Yes, but Darkplaces has many parts rewritten. It treats physics and other stuff differently. It even can't "emulate" original Quake 100% accurately. For example, map works in all engines, but is broken in DP, because it calculates some shit differently. So if I hear map is broken, I already know what engine player is using.
DP is like a beautiful but handicap girl. Looks nice but need special care.
Wheelchair Prom Queen
That's... One way to put it, I guess. Poor DarkPlaces...
I used DarkPlaces just fine for this mapjam, no issues or choppiness :) It's my preferred engine and since this 'jam was based on Arcane Dimensions prog's I figured it was okay.
Now mapjam7 with Quoth, well that's a different beast there. Had to use QS ofc.
But I ask, is it really that difficult to have updated versions of each engine and if your preferred engine is not working just use the current defacto standard(QS)?
That is what I do at least.
To be honest, I really wanted to make it work on DP as well, but had to make some fast decisions which probably made it unplayable in DP. Things like invisible walls don't work in DP? So I simple thought I want to focus on Quakespasm at the moment. Also my previous jam map wasn't meant to be played on DP.
Though it didn't know teleports doesn't work in DP? Maybe it is handling player's position and collision detects differently.. or maybe even player's collision box is bigger or something. I have no clue something like that is changed even in DP, if that is the case here?
Standalone version(s) definitely will be tested to be played at least with the current version of DP, isn't Quakespasm going to have many of the same features like DP as well? Even mankrip is working on his own engine thing that looks so far a lot like DP.
By "invisible walls" I mean wall with the rmq_transparent wab's texture invisible "pinkish texture". I heard it those didn't worked in some engine and it might have been DP.
So why I used invisible wall instead basic skip? Well for some odd reasons when placing skip brush between func_breakable bricks and button behind them, for some reasons lighting didn't liked that at all and button's front face was pure black. Maybe I just didn't placed it correctly or something.
Teleports should be placed well for at least Quakespasm.
I'll take responsibility for the start map issues. Although I don't think anybody has had issues with it in QS with the supplied palette and mod.
I didn't even test it in darkplaces, in fact I don't even have it installed.
I used the latest version of quakespasm and packaged an older verson of AD (from link at the top of the AD thread) with it. Hopefully that hasn't introduced any bugs.
Could you please shared where did you even download newer DPs. I tried to look at Moddb site but couldn't find the actual download button.
Is this the right site even?
I have plenty of time, so I will try to make it run on DP, if it only requires couple changes and not massive amount. I will share updated version here.
Just Tested NH's Map In DP...
DP's teleport problem in NewHaouse's map can be resolved by jumping into this teleport, instead of walking into it.
Okay I tried this darkplaces-sdl engine:
And this happened in many places inside this old factory area. I'm not quite sure how Dps handles drawing.
Does anyone that frequents this forum and maps for Quake really give a fat rat about DarkPlaces? I know I don't.
Complaints about how DarkPlaces runs Quake maps poorly, while at the same time mutilates game play and ruins the appearance of them, probably belongs in the DarkPlaces forum. Not here.
That of course, is nothing but my personal opinion.
For a long while DarkPlaces really was the best Quake engine out there, and a lot of the conventional wisdom floating around the Internet has solidified around DP. If some random person is aware that modern Quake engines are a thing but has not really followed developments for the past few years, they will probably be enthusiastically recommending DP to whoever asks. Ditto for a lot of older webpages that have tips for running Quake.
So a lot of folks use DarkPlaces, for better or worse. I wouldn't blame a mapper for ignoring it, but there are benefits for your (potential) audience if you check your map to see if DP breaks it.
I actually don't want to sound like I'm throwing shade at DP because it does a lot of impressive stuff -- it's a huge amount of technical accomplishment and I'm just a guy typing on a messageboard about it. It's just that DP is occasionally a bad choice for playing vanilla-ish Quake content, so it's unfortunate that it still has pole position in the info that is out there for new folks wanting to play Quake. The situation is what it is though.
Anyway... someone above asked about recent DP builds. You can check out https://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/files/?C=M;O=D
I need to make couple changes to some places, I basically need to cut some brushes so every vertex point is connected to someone else.. that might be the reason why in some views some parts of the map when running in DP doesn't draw faces that should be visible.
You spend weeks working on a map, yet can't be bothered to spend one more day to test it in the most common engines and make sure it works there... DP sux, Quakspasso 4eva etc bullshit. Go test it properly; everything else is just lazy and unprofessional!
Didn't really get your point since I'm willing to try out to make it work even in DP.
but DP sux, Quakspasso 4eva anyway
DP Was Ok, Then Daspazz Came Out
What was the particular reason for including an old, out of date version of AD in the release? I'm not sure how out of date it is, but it seems like a big risk given that I, at least, was developing against the latest version. As far as I know, nothing went wrong with my map, but still...
It's especially funny given the current context since according to the readme, patch 1 added a bunch of fixes and improvements for DP. Ah well.
I hope that was kidding.
No way would I install every off-the-wall, Saturday morning, WankWankBlingBlingQuake project just to test a map.
Test in Fitzquake and Quakespasm. Those are closest to the original as can be found for modern hardware. As long as everything works with those two, that is good enough.
1996 called, they want you back ;)
Funny how you want to "define" original Quake. Considering that the greatest gift of the game, by way of John Carmack, was modification in every single aspect. Replaceable content, QuakeC and finally... release of the source code and ID maps.
And as far as your "As long as everything works with those two, that is good enough." well, that not true either. As the latest "big" mod release, Arcane Dimensions, obviously took Darkplaces into consideration for it's release.
You can play Quake however you want to, but that doesn't mean you can tell everyone else how they are to play Quake.
Actually Rick is like, in charge. He gets to tell everyone what to do and how to do it. Didn't you know? We had a vote. Very democratic.
It's really about standards. Jam maps are not meant to be made to high standards; they're pack releases, and authors are invited to contribute what they have regardless of the quality (sensibly, of course). The deadline can mean that they don't necessarily have "one more day" to test a variety of engines and fix bugs.
Personally I'd expect a map that was released by itself today to either support more than one engine or explain why it doesn't ("This core functionality of my map simply can't be made to work the same in DP/QS so I had to choose one"), but I don't think the same standards should be leveled at a map jam or speedmapping event.
Why hurt the creative process with additional technical baggage? Just let mappers be mappers and release whatever they want. You don't have to like it, but don't expect more from them.
One of the coolest things about playing the Noir maps in DP was the blood stains! It was very "Sin City" esque, I loved it in your map Pritchard.
And I don't expect more from any mapper, let them create exactly how they choose. That's why I keep up to date versions of several engines.
1996 called, they want you back ;)
Not to be a pedant, but "old games actually weren't that ugly" is a relatively recent invention.
Progress so far:
+Starting Teleport works now without requiring jumping
-Fix building geometry in some places, so DP knows how to draw places correctly.
-Add more time to replace some items.
-Maybe even tweaking trigger placements for this fiend pit.
But everything else seems to be working just fine.
This might take an extra week or even more to make it work in DP, so if there is decent amount of people wanting play it on that engine, I will try my best.
Look its a 14" CRT monitor
<quote>What was the particular reason for including an old, out of date version of AD in the release?</quote>
It was an oversight, I made the assumption that the mods had updated the topic in the original AD post to the latest version.
eh formatting, you get the idea.
I found an old(ish) version of DP on my computer and gave my maps a quick test. Turns out that its not just the sign (func_wall) that disappears at distance, so do other "world" models. I noticed that a button disappears at a certain distance too on my e1m3 hack.
And I agree with Damage_Inc, it looks pretty badass seeing the red blood in places.
In hindsight I could have prepared the palette, keeping the blood colour, and manually removed that colour from the rest of the textures and models, etc. but at the end of the day I got the best outcome, given the amount of effort that I was prepared to put into it.
It wasn't necessarily directed at this jam or a person in particular, but rather the general attitude many people here seem to have. Obviously, a map done under time pressure can get away with it more easily (although a quick playthrough isn't that much to ask for, either). Proper releases should be tested throroughly, and this includes old vanilla engines as well as at least a selected few new ports apart from Fitzspasm.
Fair enough, I guess the lesson here is never trust the mods... both meanings of the word. :p
I think your method would have been more frustrating than helpful, to be honest. Yes, it could have helped with the particles (which as people have pointed out, is rather unfortunate) but the cost outweighs the benefit I think. I mean, you'd be providing custom skins for every AD asset, as well as forcing people to use the desaturated textures that we avoided by applying the palette in the first place. Perhaps you could have gotten a better overall result, but it would have been an effort ill-suited for a jam...
Wow! I wasn't expecting so many responses to my latest comment. I have quite a number of things to say but I'm typing this on my phone so I'll keep it short for now:
1. Outdated AD: my console says v1.42, which is the latest version available on Quaddicted. Is 1.5 out yet?
2. r\_useportalculling 0: Nope, doesn't do squat. It does, however, seem to fix the glitches NewHouse mentioned earlier about his map.
3. Completely agree with Negke's POV. I have noticed a trend lately: when you check the readmes of maps made just a few years ago, you can see that they've often been tested in several engines among the popular ones, usually 2 to 4. But with the latest maps, mappers seem content to only bother with QS and all other engines could go to hell. That's a big no-no! There's really no need to fragment the Quake community more than it already is.
Rhaaaaahhh, fucking backslash crap! Sorry, I just realized that it's Quaddicted that uses this Markdown crap, not Func_...
In regards to AD being outdated, I think its that you forgot to include the patch.
Your point is valuable, but not always the top priority.
I'm optimistic though.. since I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with the already existing geometry.. looking vertices(triangles) and trying to understand it. I'm by no mean experienced when it comes to that. It is not about optimization in this case, it is something else which I'm not familiar with.
When I stay in one spot, I just move the camera(mouse) a bit and I can clearly see when some of the faces just disappear and screen just draws something else that is clearly behind them or just skyboxes. How do I fix that, what might cause that exactly?
Did it fixed all of the glitches or just that teleport?
2. r_useportalculling 0: Nope, doesn't do squat. It does, however, seem to fix the glitches NewHouse mentioned earlier about his map.
NewHouse, that means you have fucked up portals. DP doesn't know what to do with them, when portal culling is enabled. Check out your compiler for warnings etc.
r_useportalculling 0 didn't fix the teleport, I got through it by jumping as Khreathor mentioned. I was talking about the visual glitches that you experienced. I had some too but they stopped after using this cvar.
I don't know if you noticed it because you mentioned the issue again after I talked about the newer DP builds, but since September DP now supports alpha masked textures (i.e. no more ugly pink thing where there shouldn't be).
This cvar not working was in Shamblernaut's startmap, not in NewHouse's.
Sorry For Triple Posting...
...but I just realized I misunderstood Khreathor's comment. Please disregard previous post.
In Shamblernaut's map there is just z-fighting, because this advertisement billboard is near the wall and is covered by illusionary brush, faking the light. It's quite thick, so it shouldn't do that, but I guess this illusionary brush doesn't help at all and DP doesn't know what to render first.
Maybe you can fix this with some option tweaking, but I spent yesterday like an hour to find some solution, but with no luck.
A neat shader for DP adds lightrays to windows, I'm thinking something similar could perhaps be done with lamp posts? But that would require having 2 versions of the map, one for vanilla-flavored engines and one without the illusionary brushes for engines that support shaders.
One thing's for sure: the noir theme would have greatly benefited DP's lighting capabilities and it's kind of a missed opportunity to have focused on QS.
...then move your ass and do a proper noir map for DP, instead of complaining ;)
The Dark Place
Have to say I did pull something from this conversation. I don't really have an aversion to other engines. In fact, years ago when I first played Quake on the PC I opted to look for "The Ultimate Quake Patch" and DP to ensure I got an up to date experience. Since others have the same thought process I will definitely at least do a run through on future releases on various engines to ensure stability.
Back on topic, one of the big aspects of the noir theme that I was hoping for was the street lights on dark streets and I got a taste of it but wanted more! I am glad NewHouse and Ionous deviated from the literal noir theme and took creative liberties but I also appreciate the more literal usage from Pritchard and Shamblernaut's start map.
Yah, my Sin City/Rumble Fish map is still in the works but progress is slow - firstly I'm still a mapping n00b and have much to learn and secondly it's been delayed by my focus on my jazzy/industrial soundtrack, which I still have to finish.
Anyway, when I release it I'm gonna make sure it runs on several engines, even if it means releasing 2 versions.
Would you really want to build something that's engine specific though? At least stuff built for QS ought to work in DP (whether or not it actually does, as discussed, is another matter), but relying on DP's graphical "enhancements" to make your map look correct is a recipe for compatibility disaster.
I think that's why people have moved away from a wider range of engine support in recent times, to be honest. QS has become known for offering the "Quake Standard" experience, providing generally good compatibility for the majority of Quake content without significant user tweaks or other changes. If your map works in QS, it should
work in any other engine that claims to accurately reproduce the original DOS/WinQuake/GlQuake/Whatever Carmack Actually Wrote engines, the implication being that you shouldn't have to worry so much about that stuff.
Call it false advertising, perhaps, but it's a good excuse to get out of something that really isn't much fun.
While i'm here, what's the history behind QS? This probably isn't the thread to ask in, but it's kind of topical considering Mugwump's comments about fragmentation and how a "few years ago" maps seemed to be better tested. I know QS first popped up at some point in 2010 (The first commit
on SF, for example) and that it's based on FitzQuake, but how long did it take for the engine to reach the status it has today?
I will definitely at least do a run through on future releases on various engines to ensure stability.
That's the spirit!
one of the big aspects of the noir theme that I was hoping for was the street lights on dark streets and I got a taste of it but wanted more!
I know the feeling. I mean, what I've played so far looks good but I expected more experimentations with chiaroscuro.
Would you really want to build something that's engine specific though? (...) relying on DP's graphical "enhancements" to make your map look correct is a recipe for compatibility disaster.
Nope. As I said, I would make sure it runs on several engines, no matter if I have to release 2 versions. When GLQuake came out, some people released both software and GL versions of their maps and I'm bent on ensuring max compatibility so that players are free to play it in their engine of choice.
Certainly not a bad thing, but releasing/maintaining multiple versions of a map for different engine ports seems like a pretty good example of why people shy away from supporting a lot of different engines... That's a lot of work, and it's not like there's an easy way to merge maps back together as progress is made. (I mean, i'm sure with some good regex you can get all the brush/entity numbers to like up again or whatever you need to do to make that stuff work).
I think the situation you're talking about is compatibility disaster ground zero, to be honest. When you're supporting a "fractured" map release, that's like... peak fracturing.
Would a better solution be to have a "DarkPlaces Only" spawnflag on all entities? That way you'd be able to do most of the changes that are necessary in one map...
Yes, it's more work, but what's the point of releasing anything if you won't cater to the players?
You have a good point about ground zero but at any rate, I still find it preferable than willingly excluding part of the community. The ideal solution would of course be that engine devs get together to define some kind of standard, but good luck with that!
I don't understand that spawnflag stuff yet. I'll need to look into it at some point. Would that enable/disable specific features of a map depending on the engine?
Black Future -> First Update
Okay, here you go:
Here is updated version of my jam map, replace the jam files and run. There is also ReadMe especially for Darkplaces users, it simple just point out this console command which made the visual glitches disappear.
Teleport is fixed now (I tested it couple times). Also made small changes there and there.
Please let me know, how does it feel now. After all there is no much plans for me to continue working on this specific map, for the standalone version I need to start from the scratch almost.
I'll DL it when I get access to an online computer, probably tonight (GMT+1) and I'll let you know.
As for no much plans for me to continue working on this specific map, I don't know what the jam rules entail regarding deadlines and updates, but if I were you I'd add some details to the facade of the first building you get out of. When you look at it from the other side of the collapsed street, it looks very empty compared to the rest of the map.
Also, it's probably too much extra work for this version but if you remake it as standalone, make sure you follow Khreathor's advice in post #90 instead of making users disable that cvar.
FWIW, the versioning of AD is confusing. You've got a v1.42patch2, and you've got a v1.42srslyfinal. Which package looks like a final version?
As I said, I would make sure it runs on several engines, no matter if I have to release 2 versions.
So instead of compatibility disaster you'd get a maintenance disaster.
I'm really fed up with source ports for popular games not being standartized, to be honest. There's a general assumption that if you only support one niche of engines, you're missing out on potential players, but the amount of PITA and sacrifices you have to make for the broadest compatibility is hardly comparable to the player having to use more than one source port.
I'm talking more about Doom than Quake here, but certain things are even worse in Quake.
sacrifices you have to make for the broadest compatibility is hardly comparable to the player having to use more than one source port.
You're not wrong but personally, I don't like being forced to use a different engine as I enjoy DP's graphical features very much. And conversely, I'm aware that there's a number of people who wouldn't touch DP with a hazmat suit even if their lives depended on it, and I still want these people to play my maps. "Don't do unto others...", right? You might call that overkill but I'm a perfectionist.
The Point Is That
Any source port engine that claims to be "Quake" ought to run Quake maps. If it can't, it's not a "Quake Engine".
Does Darkplaces actually claim to be a Quake engine?
If it does, but won't properly run maps that work fine in Fitzquake and Quakespasm, then go complain to the Darkplaces developer. Don't come here and gripe about it to the map maker.
I Think I Had The Same Conversation Recently
I wouldn't exactly call QS vanilla and faithful. It supports a lot of things vanilla didn't support.
Of course, if a given QS map breaks in DP due to some kind of oversight (instead of the feature sets not overlapping very well), then it's another story.
On a vaguely related note, GLQuake isn't a Quake engine, apparently, because if I'll make a button glowing in the dark due to fullbright pixels, no one will ever notice it. I don't think that counts as "properly".
If I was to summarize somehow: compatibility is a pain in the ass, always was.
"...but if I were you I'd add some details to the facade of the first building you get out of. When you look at it from the other side of the collapsed street, it looks very empty compared to the rest of the map."
That is good point, to be honest I thought it just felt right. There wasn't anything special, so there wasn't focus points at all. But I will do add more details like windows, newspapers, couple streetlights, cardboard boxes and stuff like that, but those will be for the next update.
If it is possible I would like to share that link even in Quakeaddicted site, when it will be uploaded there (but the link should lead to the latest update then).
I will try to look at what is broken and fix that, and maybe later it is possible to play without using that r_useportalculling 0. But at the moment, DP users need to do that extra thing (at least it works).
To be fair the thing that broke in my map was z fighting between world geometry and entities with alpha tags. The error was only visible because of the alpha tag. The alpha tag wasn't a thing in glquake from what I recall.
Not exactly vanilla.
Anyway, let's try to keep the discussion related to the mapjam, we have other (more relevant) boards that we can discuss engine fragmentation in.
Just Got To Confess
I wasn't believing this jam too much, but people did a great job. True noir vibe. Congrats to all. And warm regards to start map trolls. I recommend taking a look at this one before bitching further.
Start map trolls? Uh, what?! Since when is it trolling or bitching to warn an author of an issue with an engine, exactly? Unless I took your comment wrong, in that case please disregard what I've just said (I'm french so even if I can speak a pretty good english, I may not always detect all the nuances of the english language).
Don't come here and gripe about it to the map maker.
Well until the engine is fixed we don't have many other options, do we? Furthermore, not taking several popular engines into consideration IS an oversight on the map maker's part, so "griping" about it is indeed relevant. I admit it's more difficult to take the time to do that in the context of a jam with a deadline, though.
let's try to keep the discussion related to the mapjam
Gotcha. Sorry for the OT. Any further discussion on the matter will be moved to General Abuse.
Update downloaded. More on that later.
If it is possible I would like to share that link even in Quakeaddicted site, when it will be uploaded there
Just make sure that Shamblernaut includes the updated version in the zip that will be sent to Spirit. Oh by the way, it's Quaddicted, not Quakeaddicted.
We have heard you, and now it is just everyone's own decision what to do with their maps, after all jam is over now. This is just the hobby not the real job.
I do care that people want quality, but it is not the meaning of these jams. Look what there is instead of what there isn't. Some of us maybe, will be making standalone versions, so in that sense feedback is always welcome. But sometimes feedback might feel a bit more salty than sugary.
Why are you saying that? I'm cool, I just brought some constructive criticism. On the contrary, it's comments like #108 that seem bitter and uncalled for.
Anyway, I've played your updated map and it's good to go. I only had one random crash near the beginning but it didn't happen again - I had much more of these with the previous version, notably in the part with all the red lights where you first fight a bunch of plasma enforcers and those dudes on flying discs.
Reviews are coming.
I just tried to let's all stay on the topic, that is why I didn't target it to someone especially. Sorry if I made it unclear what I meant.
What kind of crashes did you experienced? As I can tell there is some portals I should try to fix next.
To be honest I don't know why I write down it that way, I clearly didn't meant to hurt anyone. It just feel unfair that there are people commenting and giving good feedbacks and I also want respond to some of them... but it is hard to find all of them after all this DP/engine conversation. I just wanted to make it very clear that some of us will support DP and some don't.
With the first version, I had returns to desktop with error messages like these:
Mem_Free: trashed head sentinel (alloc at :187240688, sentinel check at ../../../cl_parse.c:1698)
Mem_Free: not allocated or double freed (free at ../../../gl_rmain.c:3788)
as well as some without any message.
With the new version I had no message.
I had no crash issues with the other maps but it could be possible that they're DP-related bugs: I'm using one of the latest autobuilds (for the support of alpha masked textures) and they are known for not being extra-stable.
However, I'm having a lot of non-crashing issues in the console. Things like portals clipped away, empty submodels or activator (func_train) errors. I could upload a condump later tonight if you want.
Sooooooo... On Topic: Review Part 1
Start 4.5/5 - Hackopolis 3/5
Awesome mood in the start map! You definitely got the noir vibe right and I love the lighting (except in the cinema hall that could use some more contrasts) and all the little details: the car at the gas station (could be less boxy though), the blinking lights on the barrier, the crime scene in the back alley... The film projection reminds me of Duke's Hollywood Holocaust in a more SFW manner. "Enter the movie" is a neat idea!
Some nitpicks: I don't like the unbreakability of the store windows and the invisible wall at the tunnel entrance. It would've been better to put an actual barrier here, like at the other end of the street. I also wish that the windows on the cinema facade were transparent and that we could visit the cashier's office and toilets (I hate non-unlockable doors!). I noticed white fullbright pixels on the sides of the car's hood and something really weird when you look at the foliage brushes of trees from the side: they appear empty and make a very visible 8-pixel wide hole in the foliage. Also, the texture used for light cones isn't homogenous and the result looks odd up close.
I was a bit disappointed that you didn't use my idea of renaming the skill settings according to noir film classics, but I can see an echo of that in the movie posters. One thing though: some of them don't really fit the map titles and/or themes. Metropolis and Gun Crazy are spot-on, but The Killers for what's essentially a zombie-fest is somewhat missing the bullseye. Umm, hello? George Romero's Night of the Living Dead? How could you possibly pass on that?! Granted it's not a noir film but neither is Metropolis. Plus, the namesake would have been a great nod to "the other Romero"... As for Kiss of Death, I don't see the connection to The Hackopolis either.
Speaking of, that second map is disappointing (especially after such a great introduction), though not as disastrous as some others made it out to be. Yes, it was very obviously not made for this jam, but I found it rather pleasant to play. Not as good as the original E1M3 because of its more straightforward architecture and linear gameplay, but still a worthwhile variation on its ancestor.
The worst part of it is the lighting, very flat in B&W. The yellow/orange particles above the torches look weird, especially since the flames themselves are not colored. On the contrary, the fullbright red band on the ogres' grenades and yellow (not green, why?) spit of scrags look neat, very Sin Cityesque. Ammo and health are a bit too plentiful on skill 2.
Great title for a small but enjoyable map. I like the architecture, with that road winding upward and the ruined mansion. The chapel, on the other hand, looks a bit unremarkable.
Gameplay is interesting, with some narrative progression, and having only the shadow axe (yeah, I found the secret only after having killed everyone, so it was pretty much useless) to gib zombies gives it a survival horror vibe that feels refreshing in Quake.
About that, it's odd that both you and NewHouse chose to give the player only an axe in the beginning and have zombies wake up later on, triggered by picking up a weapon. Did you two exchange notes and ideas or was it pure coincidence?
Anyway, on to the cons... There's a large hole on the mansion's top floor where you can get stuck in - it's too deep to jump out of. The end is very anticlimactic: you jump down in that dark hole and that's it! A final fight against some tough monster(s) would've been nice, either in a pit/arena below or in the chapel itself. The lighting is very flat. Interiors are good if a bit overly dark but the exteriors could have used some chiaroscuro.
If you wish to update your map, I suggest you add some lamp posts or torches in order to have bright spots and tone down the ambient light to make the rest look darker. Also, the scrolling sky looks bad in B&W: firstly the lower layer has some black (or dark grey, hard to tell) pixels that look weird against the white clouds in the upper layer and secondly, it isn't seamless and the texture edges are very noticeable. A skybox would have been much better. One last point: there is only one secret but the centerprint says "second secret"... WT
Review Part 2
Second best playable map (as in "not a start map" - there's no real gameplay in those) in this jam. There's a real sense of raiding a mob lair, too bad the modified grunt wasn't ready in time! All the breakables are a lot of fun but can be tricky since [SPOILER] two of the secrets depend on not destroying certain crates to be accessible. [END SPOILER] Good lighting as well, especially in the last hallway before "Don Vito Shambleone".
I wish the windows were a little more transparent to better see through them. If you are planning an update or standalone version, here's a few issues to address: a misaligned texture on the right side of the building above the bar, an invisible wall above the palisade (why can't we visit the alley behind it?), the first bar sign inside the corridor pointing to the wall when you look at it from behind and a similar situation with the reversed texture of the sign outside. Oh, and there's way too much ammo and health on skill 2, and way too many non-unlockable doors.
Wow! The star of the show! Very impressive for a jam map and only your second release. How much time did you spend on that thing?! Great architecture with an amazing level of detail - I especially like the bits of futuristic tech apparent behind the old crumbling brick walls, giving a sense of being some kind of lab rat in an experiment gone very wrong. All the flickering lights, cobwebs and sparks are a nice touch and enhance the derelict atmosphere of the place.
The gameplay is solid too with several variations along the way, despite a little bit of linearity in the interiors. It's one thing that I didn't like much in there, where you repeatedly close the path behind the player, forcing his progression into one direction. Yes, I know there are no alternative routes in this section but it would've been better if there were.
Then again, the rest is so good that it's inconsequential. The last part where you blast your way through the horde of zombies to the tough final fight is very intense and much fun. All the stocked up ammo and scattered power-ups sure come in handy! I somehow missed one frag and found only 7 secrets, though I didn't look too hard for them.
I already liked your previous map very much, this one is a significant improvement and confirms that your style is right up my alley. I can't wait to play your next map!
One thing I've noticed is that you seem to be very fond of grates: your first map already started with some but here they're literally everywhere! On the lights, on the floors, on the walls... I'm not complaining because they add some detail, I just find it kinda funny.
One final note: I played this map with the soundtrack you originally chose and it was great! It added a feeling of oppression to the game and I highly suggest that everyone plays with it: download Dhia by Diogenes In Hell, rename it to Track11, convert it if necessary, put it in jam8\sound\cdtracks and enjoy! It's a very quiet ambient track so I had to set the music volume to max and the sound volume to about 0.4 in order for it to be audible enough. Why didn't you include it in the release? Was it a matter of size? At any rate, you should at least add these instructions to the readme.
Part 1 misses a "F?" after "WT" at the end...
Thank for your long feedback.. I will try to write something back tomorrow. But now I want to say something about that track I choose.. I was planning on cutting down its lenght, but didn't have enough time for that.. but will definately use it for the standalone version*
You're welcome. I wouldn't shorten the track if I were you. It starts very quietly but gains some intensity afterwards, and I find that this build-up complements the gameplay perfectly. So sure, a 23min track makes a quite large file (about 50Mb for an .ogg @320kbps, more than the jam download itself!) but it's worth it IMHO.
I was just joking about some guys complain about the need of a start map for a jam, that's all. Not something specific you or anybody else said. I do think start maps are a nice "wrap" and room for creativity. And I'm not native English speaker as well.
I'm the guy who were asking for start maps, since they put you into the proper mood and atmosphere. It's like preliminaries in sex... sort of.
I guess some guys here don't like preliminaries, and want to ejaculate as fast as possible... poor girl ! (or guy ?).
@adib OK, cool.
@Barnak Yeah, and this particular one is as moody as they come. I love it! I totally agree with you and when I'll get to release maps, I'm thinking about making start maps, even for one single map. Walking through a slipgate is so much more fun than typing commands in the console!
Thanks for your highly detailed review* And it makes me happy you liked my map and things I put there.. I am glad that quite many has give me such a good feedback and surely try to keep improving for my next realises.
I try answer some of your questions now:
Working time -> 2 weeks - school, since after week and half I needed to start everything from the scratch (remember seeing early images of my map? Those doesn't look anything like this end result).
Why so much grates, you ask? -> well grates has two purposes here. 1) they have real purpose to be part of sewer systems. 2) symbolic meaning that you're trapped inside, you're like in a prison with all these zombies and future alien soldiers. I wanted to make a feeling that player can't escape what is coming next.
Why so linear? -> adding alternative paths can increase the level complexity yet level designer can easily lost the main focus. And also non-linearity might not have made anything good for the map's flow, simce even though this was quite linear there still was some parts the pacing might not be the best possible... so personally I want learn to make first quite linear maps, before trying something I am not familiar with yet.
Also thank you for sharing information about my first update in QuakeOne, you literally was faster than I.
The amount of work you managed to do in so little time is really impressive! Coincidentally, I tried similar brick detail in my first test map and it took me an insane amount of time.
@linear Yes, I get that. Also with a time limit you don't have the luxury to complexify much.
@sharing You're welcome. I just happened to see Talisa's post and wanted to give DP users a heads-up before too many of them played the jam without the fixes.
So... Any Word On Skacky's Map?
Maybe he will keep it kind of a secret, so everyone forgets it first. Then after that, he will release it and everyone will be surprised.
Skacky's Map Will Be Released As Part Of The Upcoming Neon Jam
And when that is gonna be?
So we go from one mod having no colors to another mod having so many colors that it gives us a blinding migraine?
He Had The Most Noir Title Of The Lot
and the screenies looked promising, so I was really looking forward to it and I'd be disappointed if he didn't release it as a DLC for this jam.
@negke Neon jam Is this a joke or are you serious? BTW neons are more 80's than 90's.
@Orl Neons come in white, too... ;)
It feels like making all these base/city maps.. my first section will be finished quite fast.. and that is good, so it can be stylished dark but still colorful lights right? Can it be like future metropolitan with red lights?
Opened in a small low-res windowed mode with all my configs overriden.
Went back to Tomb Raider.
Wow. That's some laziness you got going. What happened to deleting the included config?
Opened in a small low-res windowed mode.. . So that is what happened? Though it happened to me just later.
Is this easy to fix?
Yeah, run it in fullscreen... ;) The included config overrides the one in \id1. Delete it and you should be good to go.
Okay I Played Them.
Good executions of an interesting theme. Good variety and unusual designs. I didn't manage to complete one as I found it harder than normal to see what was going on and what my health was doing. But it was still neat to see what had been done in this style.
Also The "feet" Command Stopped Working...
...which was fairly unbearable until OTP rescued me with the temp1 524288 command.
If this jam ever makes it to Quaddicted, I hope it gets repacked. No offense to Shamblernaut, but an out of date AD and included config files that mess with people's settings is going to give people a lot of Shambler-esque reactions.
And it should also include NewHouse's update as well as the recommendations for DP users regarding r_useportalculling 0 and using a recent build with alpha masked texture support.
And Remove That Horribly Compressed Map_hacker.jpg Pic
I promise the game doesn't need it!
What's With That Pic, Anyway?
I've seen it in at least one other release. Is it referencing something specific?
Wasnt included directly by the Map Jam authors. Its from ad_v1_42final.zip
Guys, Check This Out
Seven has just released an add-on for the jam that adds film grain and scratches. Of course, we're talking about Seven here so it's for Darkplaces. Download here: http://quakeone.com/news/site-news/12463-map-jam-8-film-noir-released-3.html
Shamblernaut & Ionous
I'm gonna try to build a HD texture pack for the jam but I'm lacking the info on the texture wads used in the start map and Buried by Time and Dust. Can you guys tell me?
I used mostly kingpin textures, I used a little id vanilla stuff and maybe some knave, there were a few mafia 1 / 2 textures as well.
You can extract the textures straight from the maps via JACK.
You can extract the textures straight from the maps
Yes, I know, but it doesn't tell me the textures' origin. I need to know that to find hi-res replacements. Thanks. Ionous?
Is this going to be uploaded to Quaddicted at some point? The first 7 Func Map Jams are there, after all.
Probably, but Ubiquitous' Symphony of Science isn't even there yet while it was released almost a full month ago. Spirit must be busy with other stuff.
I sent him e-mail days ago, asking about this "packing" since I'm noob. How normally this custom quake content ends up being in Quaddicted site? Do we need to sent them for someone or through some system?
Usually you just have to send a PM to Spirit with your map in a .zip archive.
Does anyone know what's up with Spirit? Why is it taking so long?
Nobody has sent the pack to him, the pack needs to be patched with the latest AD map and have the config.cfg removed.
I've been to lazy to do this. Feel free to do it yourself if you like.
"latest AD map" sorry I meant, "latest AD patch"
Yeah, I can take care of it. I'll also include NewHouse's update while I'm at it. Should I put the whole patch inside the repack or only the correct progs.dat?
So to save on space with the original release I removed any (level) bsps that weren't bsp models to save space. I also removed any skyboxes that were not used in the releases.
So I guess if it includes any extra skyboxes or maps, then remove those?
So, I'm repacking jam8 with the latest AD patch. It includes a \textures folder containing 3.89Mb worth of alpha masked textures (grates, cobwebs, vines, windows). Should I include it in the repack or is it unnecessary? I think not since they weren't in the original release, but I prefer asking just to be sure.
Also, should I remove that map_hacker.jpg mentioned by dwere?
Another 4 megs isnt going to break the bank for peace of mind.
Up to you with regard to the jpeg.
OK, thanks. Repacking done. Added:
- latest AD patch;
- NewHouse's update;
- Darkplaces instructions.
Removed unnecessary config files.
Kept the textures folder AND the map_hacker.jpg. Not sure why it was included in AD but I'm thinking Sock may want to keep it this way, and the user who's really bothered by it can always delete it himself.
I can upload it tonight (GMT+1) but I was thinking of doing something about the maps that don't have any music track assigned. Question for the authors: would you guys be cool about this and do you have a preferred track number?
Also, along those lines I wanted to add my main theme to the start map. The thing is, since it wasn't gonna be ready for the original release, I put it aside and it remained unfinished, as I had more pressing matters to attend to. I can finish it but it will delay the release of this repack. What say you, Naut? Yay or nay?
Thank you Mugwump for being more active with this things*
I still need an answer from you: do you have a preferred track number or can I assign any one I want to your map? I think track06 with its tense slow pulse would fit the mood of your map well. Unavailable track numbers:
- track03: unused but normally assigned to intermission screen;
- track04: will be assigned to start map like in the original game;
- track05: used by Pritchard;
- track09: used by Shamblernaut;
- track11: used by NewHouse.
@Shamblernaut: I'm still waiting for your answer about the further delay needed to finish my theme music. Is it OK or do you prefer if I release the repack sooner but without it? Also, can I include Seven's film scratch & grain shader for DP or should I keep it separated?
Sure, track06 is fine.
Track06 it is, then.
I really don't care man :)
If you want to include the film grain, just make sure you update the readme to indicate how to install and that stuff has been modified beyond the initial release.
I'll take the time to finish my soundtrack and include it. It should only be a matter of days, anyway. Thanks. I hope you guys will like my work. I'll post the link here when the repack is uploaded.
Not being able to rate my own work (and the work of others, of course!) on Quaddicted makes me cry myself to sleep every single night.
The bill for new pillows/pillowcases is getting pretty hefty at this point. Can we get the repack out there and (hopefully) uploaded any time soon? How's the soundtrack going? And should we dare to pack in 1.5?
Don't Cry For Me, Pritchargentina
The soundtrack's going slower than expected due to life issues and the fact that I don't own a master keyboard (I mean music keyboard, not computer keyboard), so I have to build any melody note-by-note. I'll try to finish it for Xmas but don't get your hopes up. Rest assured that it is coming, though.
As for including 1.5, I don't think that's necessary or even recommended: the jam was made for 1.42 and especially, Sock stressed that a lot of things were changed for 1.5, causing compatibility issues (you can't use your 1.42 saves in 1.5 for example), so I'd wager packing 1.5 with jam8 would cause problems.
I'm prepared to wait for it, I was too lazy to repackage it myself, and I'm excited to see how it plays with musics :)
thanks man, no rush.
I will stay strong and persevere, I suppose. Maybe i'll try sleeping in the bathtub.
Just wondering if you're interested including that specific ambient track for my map I mentioned under the other topic B�ck then, you are free to do so(it is the track what I always hear when Playing it anyway). Only problem might be the size.. but I think it is good to Show people that there is some free tracks out there by different composers that might fits for some Quake maps
The size is a problem, yes: if you encode it as .ogg with the best quality, it makes a 50Mb file... I'll try different settings to see how much I can reduce it.
My 2 Cents
I'm not too fond of this actually, in the same way that I don't condone including the whole of Quoth or AD. If you want to create or recommend certain music tracks to be used in combination with a map, which is fine by itself, offer them as seperate downloads and link them in the thread or the readme. Including them in the zip is, like I said earlier, unnecessary bloat and against established release practice, so to speak. I hope this doesn't spawn a new trend where everyone bundles up their releases with all kinds of stuff like mp3 files etc. just for the sake of it.
Also, try get maps/releases into a proper state before release to avoid having several version floating around. Sometimes a bugfix version is justified (if a critical is discovered), but minor fixes and especially unncessary things like "was too easy on Hard" don't warrant extra versions. This is against the backdrop of having the files hosted on Quaddicted where Spirit tries to maintain certain archival standards which having 'a mess of versions' goes against.
Just something to keep in mind for next time.
That is totally fine, if you feel that way.
To Make It Clear
Jam7 was fix, that fixed one skill mode (without that you couldn't beat it on one specific skill level), jam8 update I made because some people complaint a lot about DP support and only thing to fix that was to give These temporary solution commands, write then down on text file (and it was my mistake that I didn't know about portals back then), retrojam5 wasn't fix and I Just purely wanted to share it for those who was interested. I haven't never posted it in sense of replace by this or intented it to be fix or anything. But I really appreciate you want to keep rules around, and that is something I have kept in my mind after jam7 release.
What Negke Said...
+ what's the point of a map jam, if you can update content 2 months after deadline?
Maybe just prepare separate release with all this updates. Maybe call it patch or dlc, so people know it's additional content, different from what they got on the first release.
I see now what you're actually talking about (why not meantion it directly), mugswump, Nevermind about that track let it be like it was back then. Others who didn't have track can have now or not? if following this same idealogy.
But should it be called dlc anyway, since if there is extra content going to be. No extra maps, but everything else?
Then again, I really don't care at this point what is it going to be, dlc or not, it is not my job to decide that.