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New Quake1 Map: Xlarve's Dream
author: xlarve
file name: xld (type in console)

Map size: large
Monsters: 520
Secrets: 13

A big-sized dark metal American McGee's style map.
The map requires some of quakes engines, because map is too big for original quake 1. (I'm using Quakesapsm).
Only single-player map, no DM. No choosing-skill room.

I really like the quick done 100% walkthrough. What also affected the map and its level of skill.

If you the real quaker: kill all monsters and find all secrets! Beware! The map is oriented for experienced players.
Supposed skill of the map: nightmare!

Hope you enjoy this map.
Have fun!

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/xlarves_dream_1.png
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/xlarves_dream_2.png
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/xlarves_dream_3.png
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/xlarves_dream_4.png
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/xlarves_dream_5.png

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/single_player/maps/xld.zip
 
I want to thank: niger for radiant, ericw for binaries, spirit, negke, meag, ... all guys from q1 discord channel...
I'm always open to criticism - so feel free to write your opinions. I will try to keep this in mind for the future. 
A Huge Map! 
Hello xlarve, I assume English isn't your first language so I commend you for posting here.

I want to say this map is very, very impressive for its sheer scale, and the detail put into the brushwork. The map feels very true to id Episode 3 and has a great interconnected layout. The map is tight, and a "corridor crawler" so it feels like Wolfenstein 3D more so than Quake. Because of the size of the map I feel you could have used more textures than just the id textures to make things less repetitive. Ultimately the size and layout of this map are staggering. I give you 5/5 stars.

Now the gameplay is where I have to criticize and suggest you could make improvements in the future. I also think you could have left this map in beta longer to allow more feedback on the difficulty. I understand that this map is meant to be "hard" but I always play on hard anyway and never have problems beating a map. This map is unfairly difficult.

You have chosen to use "back-spawning" enemies that appear immediately behind and immediately in front of the player far too often. Back-spawning is the most disliked gameplay mechanic among Quake players and it can dissuade people from playing a map. You have also chosen to make Vores backspawn repeatedly. There are many instances where the backspawning prevents the player from moving and death results.

I could only complete your map using GOD mode after numerous deaths. I feel you could have balanced this map in several ways:
1) Remove all backspawning vores
2)Make rooms larger
3)You should have included difficulty levels. It is simple to do, just add spawnflags for not on easy, not on normal, etc.
I think the gameplay will dissuade people from completing this map. In the future do more iterating and add skill levels.

There is some polishing you could have done, for example, you did not put the spawnflag "Silent" for the teleport boxes the enemies are in. This means the player hears active teleporters all over the map. This is only a small issue though.

Overall, this is an extremely impressive, detailed runic map. A great first release. 
 
I died after some 90 monsters. The demo ends there. There are some comments in the demo too.

http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/xld_ankh.zip

The map looks nice and the combat is difficult but still enjoyable. It gets repetitive though. After some 7 rooms that feel pretty similar and ambushes with the same pattern I didn't feel like going through next 400 monsters.
Good effort still. Really nice.
I think the map should be cut down in size to 25%. Also lack of skill settings was not a good idea. 
Too Tired To Play Through This 
I know there was a lot of work that went into this but Please play some of Quake's classic levels and look at the room sizes for the battles. This was way too hard, way too cramped. More monsters isn't always better. You'll see from the demos I didn't get too far into the map and got frustrated early on. It seems like you did a lot of copying and pasting of rooms - or at least it felt like this. Here are my demos:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-xkqcrQhLm7LXZ1di1YendTUzg 
But I Wanted To Add 
don't give up. There are some very nice design features in your map Xlarve. You just need to work on game play balance and expand the battle areas a bit. Good luck! 
Not So Happy 
I play on nightmare usually but this was just unfair as told above. To complete the map I cheated too with permanent quad cheat thus giving monsters a chance to kill me.

That too grew dull when approaching new rooms meant throwing grenades all around. Not enjoyable. 
I Tried.... 
...I really did, but failed miserably. I ended up on fullbrite, God mode, 350 monsters down, and lost. I gave up.

I also felt that there were too many monsters in in too tight a space, too often. And I also felt that there was some cut'n'paste of rooms, which I think is why I ended up lost.

I liked the architecture, and the water areas. 
Trying Answering To All Of You 
thanx for comment!
My answers is...
About "silent" mjnsters teleport - dont know. Thinking teleport noise
is fair. Its normal for q1.
"Backspawning Vores" make special - that player cant runaway back.

About monsters and ammos. Every ammo ive tested till thee very start of map. Each monsters place tested very detailed. No random fasting placing item or monster.

Before each room player must save game and trying pass this room, thinking, finding the way how to do it. It like puzzle - need find the decision how to pass every monsters-trap.

About the tights corridors and rooms... in original q1 was the same. Dissolution of Eternity - too. Where are you see big open world in classic q1?
My favorits maps is The tomb of Terror and The Hunted Halls... this maps like and all episode3, q1 is so small.
Q1 - game with ideal balance between monsters and small rooms.
I don't want making a Serious Sam level :)

Map is so big because i have idea of the map and trying realize it. Size of the map was secondary.

Guys, you cant belive me - but - my favorites view was watching
special mode of quake with quickdone 100% demos -
videos in such ancient 2004 year dont exist...
i know the name of every map, know autors of thees maps, know every monster... 
Video 
Video 
I did not want to share the video because of the spoilers.
Dont call to look it whole, better way to look at a difficult place for you. This is just one of my testing path, i specially no took some of ammos and armors and mostly of secrets. 
Tnx For Demos 
Very unexpectedly and as I understood very few people memorized monsters places 
 
My demo is a recording of first try of your map, so no memorizing possible :)

I like the surprise in playing a new map. Small chance of repeated play of a map from my side.
You test your map knowing all traps and all monster positions. This way it feels much more easier for you than it is in reality.

There are still people doing quake speedruns:
http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=61446&start=4 
 
Oh and I like your passion for Quake! 
 
My demo https://www.dropbox.com/s/x4u1q1ihkex3mlc/xlarvedemo.dem?dl=0

First try I ragequit after the 2nd vore encounter. Read your post here about save whoring before every encounter and gave it another blast. Was pretty fun tbh. Finished 52~ mins with 6 secrets and around 487 kills.

Main criticism would be its too tight! Enemy encouncters felt a bit repetitive. Would've been nice to have a few less corridor sections and maybe a new space/idea like you did with the swimming; some more open area maybe to catch a breather considering it's a big map.

Cool stuff none the less 
 
corridor, small square room with columns, corridor, small square room with columns, corridor, small square room with columns, corridor, small square room with columns, corridor, small square room with columns, 
LLL 
All Quake maps...

A room, some monsters, another room, more monsters, a room, some monsters, another room, more monsters, a room, some monsters, another room, more monsters, a room, some monsters, another room, more monsters, 
 
Birth, School, Work, Death 
Barnak 
If I didn't forget - in the q1 of 80 polygons is the maximum view for player. So in the beginings I did a map for the original q1.
This is 1 reason.
as for all quakes turns in the map are necessary.
Second reason - many corridors - this is my mapping style 
 
the little correction - 80 polygons are meanings that player must saw in the moment so less as possible... 
 
Lll 
yes! Im very like quadratish geometry. 
#20 
Level design insights by a guy who made a first person shower simulator. Whoa. http://debacle.us/ 
#15 
Who gave you the itinerary for my next map? 
Proper Texas Style 
waco style, specifically 
Phew 
Gets a bit tedious. The bit with spiral stairs I couldn't find the last button to open the door to the next area, had to noclip.

Nice variation on theme. The few areas I liked best were the larger rooms, notably the one with the windows.

Interesting usage of textures. A bit too much of the same in places. Mostly unique rooms help, but still tedious. Loved the blue ceiling rooms near the end.

Overall fun, but very tight. Needs more balance with some slightly more spacious areas. 
 
Thanks guys for the advice - I'll try to take them into account in the future 
Ps 
mapping my 2nd q1 map for 2nd day... > 800 brushes ready 
Very Interesting 
Unfortunately my demos only show a small part of it, as i forgot to keep recording after dying, but got it done with 2 or 3 deaths, no cheats used, 518/538 enemies killed and 8/13 secrets found.
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/xld_coce.zip

Huge lenght, till the point i almost thought of it being endless, Id and probably too Unreal inspired brushwork, with lots of setpieces (i liked this approach, as it didn't make it easier to get lost), hectic and very repetitive combats, mainly linear and 2D layout but with plenty of exploration, well done secrets and varied side areas, and good underwater areas.

It was fun, right my alley in several aspects, and had some memorable moments. I like to use the GL to its strenghts and this time had to all the time. At first was left puzzled at the lack of shells, but got accustomed fast as the ammo given was always useful, and the amount was always good, well placed and in adequate amounts, as even i was most of times at full capacity on nails and explosives, but not too much. After i got accustomed to the ambushes i could go with more ease by being very cautious, expect plenty of damage and play each weapon by its strenghts. It was a bit frustrating at first but when i got the hang of it, it was fun.

My suggestions:
- I don't mind you making it hard, but what you should aim is that most encounters can be get past by someone apart from you on the first time, at least except one or two, and never the first ones. Not to make them easier but to make it easier to realize how to survive the encounter, to let the player see the light at the end of the tunnel even if it is the thorniest one.
- Back spawning is OK, but only as long as you give room to the player to notice them it the look at their backs from time to time. It isn't fun when one will always get hurt no matter what they do. At first they will complain so throw a knight or similar but after getting accustomed it will be fun.
- The placement of enemies is very repetitive: even though i never got bored because i was kept on the thrill all the time, it was still too much. All the time the same, bounce some grenades at the obvious places and get the SNG ready for the teleport ambushes.
- Opposite of my expectations, as you used set-pieces a lot to make your rooms, i never got lost, except a bit on the area after the two spiral staircases. It was because the area is big, so if you are going for non-linearity, landmarks or memorable places are needed to not get lost, like for examples big changes in size or height of the room, a set-piece, or an outdoor ''room'' after several indoor ones.
- In some ambushes, i got hurt more by the darkness not letting me see the enemies and having to guess with grenades than the enemies themselves, specially till the second vore ambush.
- A bit more of height changes would be nice, as most of the combat was mostly at similar heights.
- More than the cramped places, what bugged me more was that the columns on the walls and other details bothered me more than the enemies, and was easy to get stuck on them. I got it solved by clearing the rooms with bouncing grenades before any could see me and going gun-ho with the SNG and checking every spot first for the ambushes, but it is still a concern. 
I Too 
Have only found 8/13 secrets. I don't remember triggering some though. Only remember finding about 5 or 6. 
I Know The Author Will Disagree. 
I liked some of the layout with its occasional non-linearity, I very much liked the atmosphere and texturing as well as some of the gameplay when it managed to breathe with bigger rooms, and I also loved the whole story of going backwards through a map as if we were coming back from Nightmare difficulty.

Now for the negatives. I would think that if you create a map and say that it is a regular Quake map, even if it is a very difficult one, then that level must be finishable by an experienced player in one go without quicksaving. This is not the case with your level, at least three or four ambushes must be memorized, I would say even if you are the best Quake player ever. For me, this release is almost a puzzle-type level.

In a regular Quake map:
- ambushes where an enemy spawns just behind you and prevents you from backtracking, while three other enemies spawn to your left/right/front, ending up in restricting your movement in *any* direction, are unacceptable;
- ambushes in pitch black areas are unacceptable;
- ambushes that become a formula (spawning monsters facing you and behind you, or monsters waiting at the corner of every entrance in a room) because they are repeated a dozen times are not a challenge or an interesting form of gameplay;

I think that anyone who managed to go through the level ended up doing the same: because there is so much explosive ammo, you throw grenades everywhere in advance and bounce them off corners hoping to kill as many enemies as you can, move to the next room while switching to a gun that will allow you to quickly get rid of the inevitable ambush, then repeat it all other with the next corridor.
The point I'm trying to make is that this is such a specific kind of gameplay that I wish I had been warned in advance (and no, it's not "challenging"). 
Qmaster 
Maybe it happened for you the same as for me, as i opened by chance some of them with grenades.

What i am still curious about is what is the face almost at the beginning that if you hit it displays a message. Is that all it does or does it open a wall somewhere? 
The Face On The Wall 
"the face almost at the beginning" - When you shoot gives only a message. Its means that The devil himself helps you further on the map. In the future, almost everywhere in such niches in the walls with the face are ammos placed. Of course this is not so obvious... 
Hey. 
Tried a bit of this map. Only got about 50 monsters in. Too repetitive for me at the moment.

Build quality, theme and detailing all good. Lighting okay but coloured lighting a bit unsubtle. But seemed to be too many of the same rooms with similar combat. Maybe that's deliberate maybe not. I wasn't excited by 538 monsters worth of that.

BUT....this shows a lot of potential for future mapping. The good aspects of the actual brushes and designs are fine and something you could capitalise on with a more focused map. If this map was 1/4 the size and 4x the architectural spectacle and gameplay creativity (which I'm sure you have the potential for), it would be great.

So keep at it, I look forward to future maps from you. 
I Missed This And Want To Respond 
Xlavrve. Thanks for your response, sorry I missed it:

About the tights corridors and rooms... in original q1 was the same. Dissolution of Eternity - too. Where are you see big open world in classic q1?
My favorits maps is The tomb of Terror and The Hunted Halls... this maps like and all episode3, q1 is so small.
Q1 - game with ideal balance between monsters and small rooms.
I don't want making a Serious Sam level :)


You are 100% correct that Quake levels are a lot smaller and tighter but go back and play those levels. There will be nowhere in those levels where there are a fiend, 2 ogres, 2 Hellknights and a Vore attacking you at the same time in a tiny alcove. The monsters are spaced out a bit and triggered in waves (on nightmare). So I get what you are going for but I think you like very challenging monster fights!

Keep at it. I agree with Shambler - you have a lot of very fun gameplay notions and solid brushwork. I admire that greatly. 
I Think 
Xlarve and I have in common that we like hard levels.

Tiny space = fun
Horde combat = fun (some argue for finales)
Tiny space + horde combat = hard fun 
 
tnx guys 
 
what others wrote. finished the sequence of floor buttons about 400-monsters-down in, had no idea where to go next, too huge/dark to navigate. was quite fun before I got lost tho 
 
ok, finally finished this beast, 42min 4secrets 464kills. what. a. level! 
Soon The Grind Shall Begin... 
Going be playing this in about ten minutes.

https://www.twitch.tv/ionous 
 
)
good playing 
My Mapping Twiitt 
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