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Modern Retro Shooters / Quake Spiritual Successors
Wonder If A Specific Retro-shooter Thread Is Warranted?
#10166 posted by Shambler [92.29.26.135] on 2017/08/27 11:32:00


It is! Separate thread because there's a lot of these sort of games, the ethos of them is particularly relevant to this board, and it's inhabitants seem to have some good varying opinions on the matter.

Quake as the eptiome as 90s action FPS:

Very direct control and physics
Simple streamlined gameplay
Brutal visceral and gory
Weird fantasy / gothic / industrial theme
Grungy, coherent graphics
Cool map designs / architecture (for the time)
Varied but consistent bestiary
Etc
(many of the above adhered to and greatly enhanced by subsequent custom content)

We all like these aspects, we all like these aspects in other games, we all want to see more of those games, possibly combined with modern graphical styles (Quake Chumpions MAPS might be an example of how far this could go) and maybe very limited modern additions (crouching? an inventory? coherent story? - but nothing that gets in the way of solid action). We perhaps want the next Quake / 90s action FPS spiritual successor...

Modern Retro Shooters:

...and lo, there's a neverending stream of modern retro games many of which are unabashedly marketting themselves as 90s action FPS spiritual successors and particularly highlighting speed, direct control, simple action, limitless violence. Do they have what it takes to hit that mark though??

Strafe
http://store.steampowered.com/app/442780/STRAFE_Millennium_Edition/

Amid Evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo7X7b6pPng

Dusk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsu9uDMlIMM

Hellbound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyabhVn1SfQ

Apocryph
http://store.steampowered.com/app/596240/Apocryph_an_oldschool_shooter/

Ion Maiden
https://twitter.com/voidpnt

Neverdead
http://store.steampowered.com/app/681000/NEVRDEAD/

Gorescript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpZ1Wa0OIoQ

Intrude
https://bagogames.com/intrude-review/

Hermodr
http://store.steampowered.com/app/490360/Hermodr/

Devil Daggers
http://store.steampowered.com/app/422970/Devil_Daggers/

Gibhard
http://www.gibhard.com

Revulsion
http://store.steampowered.com/app/719180/Revulsion/

Witchfire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zqjNkdXT94

PLUS MANY MORE LINKED IN THE THREAD BELOW....

Without wanting to opine too much, there seems to be a general trend of possibly not hitting the mark despite some attempts to do so, with a huge variety in how much potential those attempts show, as well as how close these games are to realising the overall harmonious game quality of a typical best 90s action FPS. I.e. Some games seem to do some aspects right, but don't seem to get all the aspects in balance and appealing together.

Discuss....
*as The Epitome OF* 
fu otp.x 
Shambler's Threads 
Are the real spiritual successor to Quake. 
 
Another contender (haven't played it): Midnight Ultra http://store.steampowered.com/app/731590/Midnight_Ultra/

Got a few thoughts on theme/atmosphere at least... will put those in a separate post. 
 
While I haven't played or heard of everything on that list, there seems to be two main flaws that most of the 'new wave of retro shooters' always hit. The first is name-dropping every old school shooter they can think of, by name specifically, in the game's trailer- Doom, Quake, Heretic, and Hexen, primarily- but playing much more like Serious Sam instead, full of large but enclosed arenas with waves of identical enemies for the player to mow down. The second is a graphical complaint- either making the game too dated looking, worse than the actual FPSs of the time, or trying to make it look like Quake 1-era graphics but ignoring palette limitations, texture scaling, etc. so it looks like a typical ugly Darkplaces mod.

Also, controversial opinion: these types of games rely very heavily on good level design, this site still existing being an obvious testament to that, and using procedural/random generation for your levels (no matter how many rooms you've made) immediately makes them crap. 
 
The style of old school shooters was the way it was not due to artistic styling, but hardware limitations.

This notion is completely ignored in the surge of "retro-style" shooters. 
 
Skipping mechanics chat for a minute:

By coincidence I was thinking about Quake atmosphere this morning, as a result of poking around in some of the Quake Champions maps recently. Those maps are impressive in many ways, but don't have a Quake (1) atmosphere despite I think some intentions in that direction.

Quake had some weird worlds. Partly because it was made by a weird group of dudes, partly because of technical limitations (e.g. low polygon count, and restricted color set because of so many palette indices dedicated to lighting shades). But for whatever reason, it was all a bit "off-model" compared to more well-worn themes and settings.

Not to pick on the OP, but it's not really Gothic. It's also not Giger, or hell-and-demons, or Lord of the Rings fantasy, or Doom 3 style "future base with pipes and wires". It's a little sparse, low-tech, brutalist, swampy. It has spaces that seem to be waiting for something (the player, maybe). It's a little bit Lovecraftian and eventually downright abstract.

For an Actual Quake Sequel I'd want to see good takes on the specific Quake settings (base, runic, etc.) although I'm afraid that a modern game's art team wouldn't be able to get away from making them overly "busy" and overly more-like-this-other-familiar-thing.

For a retro shooter I'd really just like something that has the balls to go off-model like that. (Which is why I want to give Midnight Ultra a look when I have a chance.) And to ease back on the explanations and guides and interruptions that get in the way of letting the gameworld breathe.

Actually the thing that most tickled my retro-shooter-feel in the past couple of years might have been Teleglitch, although it's not an FPS. 
Gibhard 
Looks great. Looking forward to this one. http://www.gibhard.com/ 
The Only One In That List That Hits The Mark Is Ion Maiden 
Because it's actually made on fucking Build. 
Don't Forget 
Minimized
Monument
Revulsion

Keeping my fingers crossed for Ion Maiden. 
+ 1 Gibhard 
That's the only one I care about. Coincidentally I think it's the only one on that last made by someone with extensive mod + game industry experience 
 
last = list 
Gotta Be A Dungeon Crawler First 
Before it's a first person shooter. Anyone who manages that has it nailed. 
You Forget Paranautical Activity And Eldritch 
 
No I Didn;t Forget You Nugget, I Don't Know The Whole Fucking Lot. 
Also less listing games, more discussing whether this trend can work, whether the games you list can hit the mark, etc. 
I'll Look At The List In More Detail 
but I agree Gibhard looks excellent. Super-coherent look, great implementation of that pixel aesthetic. Low-ish res sprite weapons work great. The textures are appropriately low-res, unfiltered, and well executed. Effects all look good. Combat looks enjoyable.

Potential shortfall is obviously the fact that it's proc-gen and time will tell if that can be executed well. 
Oh And Of Course, Devil Daggers. 
Close to the Quake aesthetic. It's dingy and brown and pixellated, but it is actually hugely atmospheric and oppressive. It does that thing where the lack of detail causes your mind to fill in the blanks.

Only thing is it's so intense and oppressive, i find it a bit much after a while. I guess you could consider that a compliment. 
Not Really Interested 
To me majority of Quake mods and maps and also Doom mods and maps are far superior to these attempts.

Recently I have been playing "The Ultimate Torment and Torture Supportive Edition" with Brutaldoom and having a blast. I doubt any of the so-called retro titles can give me similar enjoyment. 
 
Brutaldoom 
 
Brutaldoom is a decent TC whatevs, fuck the drama around SgtMarK who cares?

Better than above mentionned games as Kingold says.

I think there is real bank to be made on a real "oldschool" FPS a la Quake 1 - it will create a following and proper hype, the public is ready for it and all they get is the (mostly crap) listed above to try hard as they can to enjoy for want of that having that "old school fps" experience again.

For this to work though the way of stripping it down (procgen, ridiculously low res simple gfx etc) is not the way to go, it needs to be done in a GRAND way.
Super art direction (but simple efficient limited engine), low system specs - awesome performance 100+ fps easy on weaker systems (how can one justify shit perfoamnce on "retro" ?) real SP campaign, good MP & great netcode with dedic private and public servers etc etc, moddability and mappability.

Not an undertaking for a small low funds indie team I don't think but who knows...

I know we are on func, and its obvious, but the extent of beauty being pulled out of the Q1 engine from the quality of custom maps being made these days is a perfect example of what a large well funded art team should of such a project would be working on (and not endless wow fx multi artist team assets) 
 
On and yeah, another "modern" touch that could go a long way - great fucking sound design with great fucking sound tech - a la positional stuff in Thief.

There is a great deal that can be done with the diverting of the massive art team resources put in AAA games towards more polishing, the subtle touches and generally quality over quantity to make a "retro" fps feel like much much more than just that.

And AAA quake 1 2017 could be made and very profitable if a few execs somewhere had the vision.. 
 
i think it's wishful thinking that a publisher would put a "big" budget into a retro shooter. Way less bankable than a modern shooter with AAA graphics, no matter how predictable those can be. 
My Thoughts 
Here's a brief list of what I perceptive as mistakes and shortcomings found in modern "retro" FPS games (and their remedies):

• absence of proper level design - level design is the very core of a good FPS. you can have a phenomenal aesthetic and clever ai, but that is absolutely no substitute for real, good level design. inversely, a game can have a lackluster aesthetic and dumb ai but still be a very good game by virtue of it's level design. IMO, if one had to choose a single most important aspect of a game it would be this. sadly, level design seems to me the most overlooked in the modern retro FPS scene.

• inappropriate/inconsistent art style - this one is pretty self-explanatory. execution goes a long way, even uninteresting or derivative designs can hold their own if executed properly. IMO, I think that materials (bumps, norms, specs, etc) are not only often inappropriate, but poorly executed as well. even materials subtly and tastefully used are still ultimately out of place. spend time making one good diffuse map rather than throwing in all the bells and whistles because you can. also, I don't remember any FPS from the days of old that used 8-bit music.

• unrestrained and haphazard design - classic FPSes were defined by outside limitations (hardware, tools, etc). this created not only a certain look, but a feel. these games oozed creativity that is often a product of the devs working within and around these limitations. modern retro FPS devs need to think deeply about appropriate limits, impose them, adhere to them and work creatively within them.

• respect the player - there is a strong temptation to "dumb-down" and "hand-hold". I sympathize, but stop it. understand your audience, they're much more experienced and astute than you give them credit for. also, don't swing too far in the other direction. making something stupidly difficult or obtuse is not good design and it's not retro. these games need to be pleasurably challenging and rewarding.

• one-dimensionality - this is more general but is a common trait among these games. The "retro" aspect is approached more as a gimmick than an ethos. devs seem to pick a single and often easily identifiable attribute of oldsclochool FPSes (pixelation, lowpoly, speed, gore) and run with it, seemingly in a vacuum. this results in a caricature, exaggerated and shallow, rather than an authentic classic fps experience. oldschool FPSes are often more nuanced than people think and are a careful balance of many things.

It's not enough to execute one of these correctly. You have to hit all of them. I'm sure there's more to add to this list (there is) but I have stuff to do :D 
Killpixel I Only Read Your Titles. 
And I already think I agree 100%. 
 
I intended to keep it at bullet points with maybe a single sentence explanation but ended up getting a little wordy :/

the bold text makes a good TL;DR 
 
i think it's wishful thinking that a publisher would put a "big" budget into a retro shooter.

DOOM 2016 would like a word... 
 
that was in response to

There is a great deal that can be done with the diverting of the massive art team resources put in AAA games towards more polishing, the subtle touches and generally quality over quantity to make a "retro" fps feel like much much more than just that.

Doom 2016 is as AAA and modern as they come (obviously the gameplay takes inspiration from classic shooters and rewards action etc) 
Shub Niggurrath Brings All The Whites To The Yard 
 
Killpixel's Game Should Be Added To The List 
He sounds like and definitely looks like, he knows what he is doing. 
 
Doom2016 indeed is a an example of a modern FPS taking more retro mechanics and having success.


I think this is highly underestimated : the wow factor achievable if the human resources poured into the crafting all the stuff needed for impressive modern gfx were poured into doing more with less a la Quake1.

You got to think the scale, detail and polish achievable. Of course there would be no reasons to have any limits on level size, number of brushes etc, not for the purpose or silly-level acrchitectural detail but rather gigantic maps

Imagine this kind of stuff http://quaketastic.com/files/jam9.png on an insane scale, where you can see off kilometers into the distance (using modern gfx power for high render res and max AA etc to keep all that lovingly designed crisp detail as much as possible)

These AAA level human resources can be busy with scripting actual events in the distance while you make you way thorugh the episode sized level, eg enemy and friendly forces fighting far off in the distance, actually happening in level in engine


I think that in todays almost bland me-too AAA eyecandy gfx this would actual have a much higher impact than classis "gud gfx" 
 
Doom 4 barely has anything retro in it though, apart from keycards and maybe the health drops from monsters that is vaguely similar to Life Essence in Blood. The progression is almost the same as Painkiller's which is absolutely NOT a retro FPS.

Also killpixel is spot on. 
Agreed 
killpixel's project looks fantastic and nails the the retro-shooter aesthetic. No wonder his critique of modern shooters is also so spot on. 
Killpixel's Ain't Included On The List Because.... 
...it so far doesn't like it's going to fit in with "a general trend of not hitting the mark" ;) 
Damn 
now that's a hot trend 
Aw Shucks, Guys 
wait till you get your hands on the demo then decide if it belongs on a list :D 
Killpixel 
are you going to use us to make maps for your game?

please? 
Shamblernaut 
Hmm. I'm tempted to give you a cute answer like "maybe :)" but that wouldn't satisfy me if I were asking. So to be frank (and probably overly candid) yes, it is intended that the level design team will be comprised of people from the quake, doom and duke nukem 3d communities. HOWEVER, I have not started assembling the team and I'm still quite a ways away. There are still things to be done, things that remain be seen and others that have yet to fall into place. The project's destiny will be clearer after the demo (I'm doing my best to get it out Q1 2018).

So there you go :D 
Only Interested In A Few 
Dusk, Ion Maiden, Amid Evil and Gibhard.

Most retro inspired shooters are not good. Strafe is one of the big name examples where they failed to properly do the genre justice. Most of them aren't even as good as Strafe. 
 
Strafe is a roguelike-ish FPS, not a Quake clone. 
My Perfect Retro-modern Fps 
Graphics/asthetics like Devil Daggers, hub-centered world design and combat pacing similar to that of Hexen, slow but not too slow, Quake-style thematic variations, just enough big-picture polish for effect without going overboard into minute details. 
Devil Daggers Is Cool 
albeit it's far more akin to an FPS version of scoring shmups where the point is NOT "good level design" in the traditional sense but rather in continually replaying the same stages with the same patterns over and over with the goal of self-improvement, beating records, etc. As a highly casual occasional shmup player I can appreciate that; not really my preferred cup of tea, but it's a really good game that's trying to do something much different from old school FPS, however it was marketed. It has the aesthetic down to a T, though, that's for sure.

Doom 2016 is awesome. It's obviously much more in a Painkiller/Serious Sam vein, but it blows those games out of the water in its execution.

I haven't played any of the others mentioned in this thread but I will probably check out the ones Fifth mentioned, and any others that people care to recommend (assuming they don't use procedural level generation). 
New Apocryph Trailer 
Doesn't impress me - Doom 3-style lighting, narrow cluttered rooms, boring enemies, boring trailer.

Anyway here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGdx2yg3m-g&t= 
 
boring music too. 
Woof 
 
Aye. Pretty Sure My Favourite Old Skool Shooters... 
...weren't box rooms full of bouncing jello blobs which you can hardly see because of the blinding rave effects from the weapons.

I don't mind the lighting tho. 
Apocryph 
truly awful particle effects 
 
:D 
 
That Looks Really Cool 
what game is that? 
 
One of those Dark Souls games

Thing is you can go anywhere you see there

This is what I was talking about a few posts back

Integrate to a "low detail" engine the really great parts of modern tech such as one big detailed level you can travel to any part you see of. 
 
There's nothing oldschool about Doom 2016. It's pretty much just Serious Sam with less enemies and more arenas that lock you in place. Unlike Serious Sam, when you're low on health or ammo enemies just start shooting them out like pinatas so the player never has to think about ammo conservation or health. Even Doom 3 felt more "oldschool" with handplaced encounters, resource management, secrets scattered around maps that aren't collectible bobbleheads, and movement mechanics and Doom 3 is the last game that comes to mind when thinking about oldschool. 
Bullshit. 
 
I Agree With Anon 
Doom 3 is more old school than Doom 2016 (D3 is essentially quake2 at half speed). D3 and D2016 are both rather different games, IMO. As matter of fact, I just beat D3 twice back-to-back this last week (I love the atmosphere, art, sound, animations and general vibe).

I've only beaten D2016 3-4 times and have replayed several of the levels many times. The health-on-demand system really is a deal-breaker for me. I try to compensate by playing on the hardest difficulty and by turning off most hud elements but even then I know it's just an illusion - health is at my fingertips should I ever need it. I really don't care for the arenas at all, either. Don't get me wrong, it's a good game in its own right, but it falls short in some meaningful ways for me. Had they ditched the infinite health and boring arenas the game would have much more staying power for me.

However, Foundry, Argent Facility and Argent Facility (Destroyed) are some of the most pleasing play spaces I've seen in any game. 
 
(D3 is essentially quake2 at half speed)

Quake 2 at half speed is Quake 4, not Doom 3.

Doom 3 was id's attempt at implementing the Half-Life style of scripted storytelling, which was hugely popular at the time. This, together with the heavier renderer, resulted in the slower pacing.

Let's not forget that Quake 1 is also slower than classic Doom. The speed in Quake was reduced to make the levels seem bigger, since the Quake renderer couldn't match the performance of the Doom renderer in big areas back them. One of the first criticisms about Quake was that the levels never featured more than 5 enemies at the same time (which I'm not sure if it's actually true, btw). 
Doom 2016 
Doom 2016 was closer to the original Doom than Doom 3, so if you want to get finnicky, Doom 2016 is the most oldskool of the two because Doom 1 & 2 are older than Doom 3.

Semantics aside, I personally found D2016 a pretty good compromise between old and newskool norms. Yes it may have arena battles, but you can tell that each arena has been well designed and the monster encounters carefully choreographed and timed, so it's a travesty to compare that to Painkiller that just throws a shitload of the same enemy in to a square arena, or Serious Sam that just spawns a giant horde in the distance and lets it run straight at you. 
The Explanation Of The Bullshit: 
1. SS focused on horde combat, D4 didn't.

2. SS very wide open spaces with little variance, D4 tighter more 3D areas with cover.

3. D4 coherent theme throughout. SS much less so.

4. D4 themed bestiary throughout. SS much less so.

5. So-called pinata thing not the god-mode that morons think it is. Plenty of risks and timing involved. 
 
DOOM 4 was good.

DooM^3 was bullshit.

Hope this helps. 
Gibhard Looks Neat 
I like the lighting and explosion effects (that dithered smoke is awesome). The procedural generation is not just a sticking together of premade rooms but rather premade wall, floor, ceiling, posts pieces that are modularly (that's a word right?) put together. The maker says he has taken a lot of time to get the generation to work in a way that balances randomness with design. I'm assuming that means that he has "sets" of pieces that are more likely to come together in the generation to make room designs that are randomized in size, shape, etc.

I'm intrigued. Sounds like what I would do. Hope it turns out. 
D00T 
Quake 2 at half speed is Quake 4

Quake 2 at 1/8 speed is Quake 4 :)

Aside from the movement speed, visuals, PDAs, and Q2's hub system, Doom 3 and Quake 2 are practically identical. You may recall one of the primary criticisms of Doom 3 at the time was that it offered nothing new in regards to gameplay.

I personally found D2016 a pretty good compromise between old and newskool norms

I agree, especially in the context that it's a contemporary AAA title targeted at the masses and console platforms. I'm not sure they could have toed the line any better within those parameters.

So-called pinata thing not the god-mode that morons think it is.

Speaking as a moron, I would have to disagree. The pinata/glory kill combo is very, very strong. Pinatas + glory kills + chainsaw and you are god. period.

Here's a two minute video of me clearing an arena in Lazarus Labs with only the SS and GK while walking and playing like an xXxGam3rK1d420xXx. I even took my armor down to zero before engaging. Disclaimer: it's only on UV. I reinstalled to let a friend check it out and Id/Zenimax won't let you select Nightmare until you've completed the game on one of the easy difficulties (lol).

Plenty of risks and timing involved.

That's my main gripe, there really isn't nearly as much as there appears to be. Doom2016 is a Doom themed Disney ride - the player's skill level has little bearing on the overall experience. It's a great ride but it gets old fast. Sure, you can self-impose limits to make the game more challenging (no glory kills, chainsaw, grenades, etc) but that's totally lame. Self-restraint is the last thing I want to practice when playing an FPS, especially Doom. 
In That Case 
good thing I (apparently) sucked at Doom 2016 so I could have a blast with it. 
 
Huh. I was sure I played on Nightmare first time. I thought only Ultra-Nightmare (permadeath) was locked out. 
I've Enjoyed 
...every Doom I've played. Including the turn-based Java game for phones. They all have their strengths. I'd say my favorite was Doom 2 but that's because that is when I started mapping.

Doom 3's sound design and positional audio in 5.1 was pretty mind blowing, but then I am a sound design nut.

The back and forth about all this is entertaining tho.

I'm with @lpowell - but I suck at most games. I don't play them for the challenge or the sense of accomplishment... I play for fun. 
Doom³ 
It was fun and no game came close to looking as good in 2004. I bought a new computer just to play it. It wasn't the hordefest that the previous games were but it was cool in its own right 
 
Jesus fucking christ, is there still no Doom2016 mod to remove the pinata shit ? such a simple mod, such a good idea... ??? 
 
Killpixel Next Time Put Ur Name To That So You Don't Get Confused... 
...with anons, please.

Also skim reading your posts you've obviously played a LOT of D4, enough to know it very well, so yeah you might find stuff easier than normal players. 
Also. 
I was lying awake in the middle of the night thinking about what to post about Doom4, and now I can't be fucked. So just imagine my words of wisdom are actually here, whatever. 
More Games For The List 
Project Warlock
Shootrage

@lpowell - If I sounded like an elitist snob saying that only noobs would enjoy Doom2016 then I communicated my thoughts poorly. The gist is that, IMO, Doom2016's strength is more in it's spectacle rather than it's mechanics.

@dumptruck - Sometimes the challenge is the fun :D

@qmaster - Nice find!

@shambler - So just imagine my words of wisdom are actually here

Imagining so hard right now. 
Its* 
Dear Santa,

need edit button, no write good.

-kp 
 
Project Warlock looks alright, they've actually placed some restrictions on themselves. That Shootrage one looks more like a badly made mid 2000s FPS than a good 90s one. 
 
The monsters in Doom 4 also don't look demonic in the slightest. You can tell the designer for them worked on Pacific Rim because they look like kaiju rather than actual demons. The game itself also has proper MP rather than a halo clone. If Doom 3 SP had always run it would be better off. 
Nice Wrong Opinions 
 
 
Try coming up with an actual argument please.This looks like something out of Pacific Rim https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e8/fc/17/e8fc17931e54204b7c0c7273fb44b974.jpg 
Your Face Is Out Of Pacific Rim. 
Post with a name and try again. 
Anon 
You are wrong 
Well 
I haven't played Doom 2016 yet, nor have I seen Pacific Rim, but going through http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Doom_(2016)_Monsters I get the point anon is making. The Possessed/zombies look fairly Doom-like, as does the Baron of Hell (that thing is awesome!) the Mancubus, and the Cacodemon, sort of.

The Hellguard, the Cyber Demon, this guy ( http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Possessed_Security ) the Hell Knight and the Pinky look more like some kind of alien rather than demons to me. 
 
The Possessed Security and Possessed Soldiers look a lot like strogg, I assumed they were a call back to Quake 2 and 4. 
Link To The Right Wikipedia 
http://doomwiki.org

The wikia is run by nazi 
Ampersand 
Get out. How dare you mention those 2 abomin4tions. Don't you know Quake has never had an actual sequel?

(Quake 3 is only half an attempt since it's singleplayer sucked, ie didn't have any.) 
Well This Is A Possibility. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zqjNkdXT94 less of the retro but plenty of the possibility of old skool visceral action. Unlike a lot of these games it seems to have a really strong theme and atmosphere.

Painkiller and Bulletstorm devs, well if they can lose the general hodgepodge hordiness of Painkiller, and pretty much everything about Bulletstorm, it could be good.... 
Great Graphics 
the scale seems a bit whack though, like the player character's two foot tall or something. Could be intentional, but it doesn't come across that way to me. 
 
Looks really nice, but that's the thing... Of all the games i've ever played, Ethan Carter was the only one to ever give me motion sickness. I hope I don't have the same experience with this. 
Witchfire 
Yeah, I've watched this trailer like 10 times already (I'm the filthy anon that double-posted this last night). I love the aesthetic but have some reservations in regards to gameplay. The trailer looks like a very, very, very pretty Painkiller with abilities. Early in wrath, there was an ability, spririt leap, that was basically identical the one one demonstrated in the video (@0:50ish). I had this there to make up for the slow player movement. In the end, boosted player speed was more fun. I feel like that's what they're going for: a slower, somewhat tactical approach. It could be really cool, but I think the gameplay will be pretty slow, but it's too soon to tell. Honestly, with that aesthetic, I'd still play the shit out of it even with Painkiller gameplay :D

@text_fish - the scale seems a bit whack though, like the player character's two foot tall or something

I would bet it's absolutely intentional. Pretty oldschool, too. Not only is quakeguy short, but the camera is in his chest, same with Doomguy... and Duke Nukem... and Caleb... 
Pritchard 
have you tried the Apocryph alpha? They added a blurry effect when turning that gave me a similar sensation.

A supposedly game based on 20 years old gameplay that produces dizziness when played that way is ridiculous. I could only go forward or backwards during the combats due to that. 
Motion Sickness 
1. Excessive headbob = worst offender
2. Motion blur = redundant garbage
3. Depth of field = redundant...your eyes do that for you. 
I Despise Headbob. 
Not least because it is completely stupid fake bullshit. In real life your mind / balance compensates for the headbob in your vision so when you're running it doesn't feel like you're bouncing around all over the fucking place - because hey 40,000 years of evolution have worked that out. Maybe in another 40,000 years devs will work out that something that is simultaneously unrealistic AND wrong AND detrimental shouldn't be in their games. 
Exactly! 
Basic rule of thumb: assume people have poor eyesight and don't need any help blurring things further either through motion, filtering, etc. Don't make it more of a chore to enjoy the game. 
 
That fucking FOV in Witchfire though X_X
The fuck is wrong with people 
Looks Like Console Standard 65 Fov 
We can hope they have an adjustment in the settings. It's a contentious enough issue that it should be standard in all PC/MAC/Linux versions of the game. I'm not too fond myself of anything above 80 or 85 depending on if it is an indoor or outdoor game but to each his own. 
 
That fucking FOV in Witchfire though X_X

Yeah, it's pretty terrible. Hopefully it's just for the teaser to get that cinematic feel. 
 
Its like having fucking glaucoma, I don't understand the attraction of claustrophobic tunnel vision, console OR pc, its fucking awfull no matter where.

Is it due to the limitations of controllers for FPS? then fucking find another / better way to play FPS from the couch ffs. 
FOV 
It's due to performance. Lower FOV = Higher Performance because you have less to draw on screen. Historically the consoles have been less performant than PC rigs.

There is also the "screen-is-like-looking-out-a-window" theory which says that people feel wierd if they can see more "out" their computer moniter than would be possible if it were a window. This is of course complete nonsense. 
 
Heres a fucking solution for the peasants
http://i.imgur.com/MVsUXPa.png

But as you say, historically. Its time to drop that awfull fucking shit. 
 
lol i remember lowering the screensize in doom to get better fps 
Bump For DaZ Who Has Been Living In A Cave.... 
 
Cube 2 / Sauerbraten 
Tsk.. how can a thread like this forget http://sauerbraten.org/ it even has its own icon on this messageboard! Certainly was designed to stay very close to Quake in terms of gameplay and level design in particular. Some of the best maps for it are by Quake mappers like our own Metlslime no less! 
Shit Dude. 
Admittedly sauerbraten is quite old now compared to to the young pretenders.... 
And Hasn't Had An Update 
in the last five years.

But it is still good: while the AI is quite bad i have it installed for a quick play from time to time. 
 
I have a map in the SVN for Tesseract, (Cube 3, I guess?) if anyone wants to check it out. It's... not great, but not awful either. It would probably be better if Tesseract had better gameplay. 
Alphacorp Btw 
 
Alphacorp 
could you provide a link or something? All i could find was what seems like a guild/faction of what it seems an exploration game called Star Citizen. On the other side Tesseract was easy to find and will play for a bit. 
 
https://tesseract.pupskuchen.net/latest/tesseract-nightly.zip I think this is all you need to play it. Just find the map in the menu. 
OK 
i understand now. I thought that you got the name of the game wrong, and that it was Alphacorp and not Tesseract, not that you were talking about the name of your map, my bad.

But this one died quickly, i couldn't find a web that has something about the game apart from 2013-2015 save Quadropolis and one in 2009, but on the other hand your link shows lots of recent updates.

By the way, good map there, it runs faster than the detail would make it seem. Pity i couldn't play much as i couldn't see the way to change keys. 
 
#104 
in light of this revelation I just want to say that the weapons for wrath have been done for some time :P 
@killpixel 
We know the score hombre. :) 
 
Man, all this stuff is so heavy on the presentation and light on the gameplay mechanics. I just want oldskool SP gameplay, not necessarily all the dudebro actionflick stuff or bathroom-tile sized pixels. Also 2.5d map design kinda sucks compared to full 3d, give me that sweet z-axis action, damnit. No one in the nineties actually wanted that limitation. 
DUSK IS OUT ON STEAM MOTHER FUCKER'S ! 
FAO Devs: 
[11:08] Shambler: retro is not about recapturing the "shitness" of the 1990s, it's about recapturing the good bits 
Has Anyone Else Here 
given dusk a spin? 
Dusk SP 
Dusk: at the moment it's good, not great. Has potential. Very much focused on gameplay over looks.

Interesting map designs, lots of z-axis. No fall damage. Fast movement. Enemies lack variety in attacks imo. Weapons mainly hitscan, firing them feels nice, good sounds also. Maps are short and key/gate based. The maps progress in theme, but very gradually, with a unified color palette, felt nice. Got lost a couple of times, so that part felt rightly oldskool, haha. The music is great. The boss fights (there's 3 iirc) are tame. As for difficulty, I played it on medium difficulty and didn't die once, though I went through some low-health situations. It'll probably be a breeze for any experienced Quake player. Jumping feels very different to Quake, had to get used to it.

Lots and lots (and lots) of winks to older shooters, it's very much a hodgepodge of unashamedly stolen ideas. I had fun playing through the first episode. I hope a newer release will bring some more variety in maps and enemies, and perhaps weapons (that said, it's probably already more varied than most shooters). 
BTW 
The presentation is very lo-fi, but considering this thing is 90% the work of a single developer I think that's totally the right decision. 
DUSK 
@StillTooLazyToRegister - I agree somewhat, your assessment seems more realistic than the steam reviews.

Level Design - I disagree with many reviewers on this point. Dusk's poor level design is probably its greatest shortcoming. As a result, the game is boring, easy and exploitable (I was a able to bypass a keyed door by stacking barrels).

Visuals - yep.

Weapons - Overall, they feel pretty good with nice feedback.

Sound & Music - Sound is good. The music is the most polished thing in the game.

at the moment it's good, not great. Has potential.

I would say at the moment it's not good but has potential.

I've seen this game called a "love letter to oldschool FPSes". IMO, it's more of a doodle on a post-it note than a love letter.

I'm somewhat puzzled. DUSK has good steam reviews as well as positive reviews from the likes of LGR and GGManLives. I must be out of touch or missing something; as a massive fan of retro shooters DUSK is not hitting any of the right notes for me. 
The Current Trend For Retro Shooters 
is really just a race to the bottom for most devs, I think. The vast majority of their target-audience haven't played any 90's shooters for 20-odd years, so they'll be satisfied with a few cheap visual hooks and some silly monsters. Obviously like any trend this will bottom out leaving some room for the devs who are putting the time in to make a genuinely good game, but by that point a lot of the people jizzing over things like Dusk will have happily returned to the AAA thrills of Call of Duty 83768. 
 
more like target-audience haven't played anything in the 90s by not existing and wanting to live in the mystical "90s are best" time. 
 
dae le h8 90s kids amirite 
Proof Dusk Is Good Game 
 
It's nothing new, there were loads of shitty FPS in the early 90s too that were obviously just made to jump on the Doom clone bandwagon. Taking that into account I'm going to say that the current string of shovelware is the true retro FPS revival but that's going to be an opinion that grates with just about everyone else here. 
DUKS (Not Quack) 
Full disclosure... I hang out in the New Blood Discord all the time and have been playing DUSK since pre-orders became available on Steam last year.

DUSK is the real deal. It isn't perfect. It sure as heck isn't Quake... but it's worth your time. DUSK could easily be mistaken for cynical nostalgia bait, but the creator has a real love for his inspirations. The winks and nods are there, but it never devolves into cheap pandering. The game has it's own voice and doesn't rely on references.

It's fun to play because the developer obviously has fun making it. There is an emphasis on FEEL which I appreciate. One might take for granted the SMOOTHNESS of movement but it's something that received a great deal of attention.

Not everyone will dig the level design. It's more Build than it is DOOM/Quake, with semi-realistic environments that never become so abstract or puzzling. I find them atmospheric and fun to explore nonetheless.

The music is 10/10. The ambient tracks are my jam.

I'm a picky gamer who is easily fussed so of course I have my gripes. But the only real caveat I can offer is that DUSK is simply too easy.

"Cero Miedo" is DUSK's UV or Hard equivalent. It never demands enough of the player for me to slip into a flow-state. When I think about level sets like Ancient Aliens or Arcane Dimensions, I remember specific fights so engaging that my keyboard and mouse dissolved in my hands. You know what I'm talking about. DUSK's combat unfortunately never rides that hallowed line between fun and frustrating. It is FUN however. It's challenging enough to keep me interested and like I mentioned before, it just feels great to control.

There is "Intruder Mode" which I recommend. You start every level with only sickles. Even on this mode, "Cero Miedo" is still too easy. "DUSKMARE" is DUSK's gimmick difficulty. You die in one hit. Challenging yeah, but not a replacement for proper difficulty through encounter design.

It's an easy recommendation for FPS fans. Especially now that Steam has refunds, you literally have nothing to lose. ;p

BTW I have pre-alpha access to AMID EVIL and it is incredible. It's already more challenging than DUSK and looks gorgeous in motion. Videos really don't do it justice. Look out for that one. 
#118 
looks and sounds like shit. pass 
Revulsion 
Some anon posted it earlier in the thread, but Revulsion seems to be coming along nicely. 
Revulsion.... 
....is a good description of what I feel looking at that. I did enough fucking Lego as a kid and don't want my FPS games made out of it. 
Quake Vs Modern Retro: 
Reborn 
Reborn just publish it's steam page!

the trailer looks and feels awesome

http://store.steampowered.com/app/789820/Reborn/ 
Not Very Modern Retro Really. 
But does look promising. 
Reborn 
Looks good, not really retro but more of an evolution 
The Wastes 
http://www.moddb.com/games/the-wastes

Technically more of a total conversion / mod than new game, but looks kinda cool and is promoted as a throwback 
Box Rooms Botmatch Ahoy. 
 
Re: The Wastes 
I'd make maps for that. The car stuff looks pretty decent. The tire marks are a fun touch. Not liking the puffy blood effects tho. 
Re: The Wastes 
If there are any questions regarding content creation, I can answer them if you like. We'd totally love to have workshop integration at some point. 
 
Indeed, our color palette features a variety of brown colors! So does Quake actually. I didn't think you'd mind, Anonymous-Proxy guy. 
@eukara 
Feel free to post your workflow here. Are you using Q3Radiant or similar to create the game? Since Dusk is using a TrenchBroom variant for their user-content creation would you consider the same thing? 
@dumptruck_ds 
While I got introduced to mapping with Q3 Radiant, I ultimately had spent most of my time working with Hammer and so did my colleague Megan. We came out of the Half-Life modding scene and so we adapted J.A.C.K. a few years ago. It seemed like the best idea at the time and it certainly bridged the transition to Q3 BSP for her. However we'd like to move away from it in and we encourage usage of Radiant instead due to the lack of updates and support for certain features we've been waiting for.

Some more technical background info:
We're a two head team. I do some mapping, but most of the heavy lifting is done by Megan, as is the rest of the content work. I am responsible for the programming mainly (everything but the engine). Technically the engine is FTE QuakeWorld, but we have a custom configuration setup that only implements the idTech 3 formats and focuses on that toolchain. It's the first real game made using FTE I believe and a lot of functionality was implemented by Spike for us upon request. Things such as OpenAL reverb presets (for environmental sound effects) and our custom model format, based on IQM.

I hope that people other than us will take advantage of that in their Quake mods, but so far priorities have not shifted from 'the usual' yet. Maybe one day.

The game will ship with its own SDK, containing game-logic, source texture files, as well as the input model files for our model compiler.

We hope to shape the game during its lifespan a bit game-play wise. It'd be incredible if we get it right the same day the game comes out, but it's unlikely to happen. Certainly balancing is one of the many problems in a game with 30+ weapons, vehicles and an abilities system. I fear we'll get some flak from the competitive scene if they ever come across it, but that's honestly not the audience we are looking for. 
Bummer 
This Is 
like DMSP, simplified, and with no maps.

If at least the maps were interesting ... 
That Is Barely An Engine Test And Complete Garbage. 
Please post stuff that is vaguely relevant. 
Talking Of Complete Garbage. 
Hellbound """gameplay""". Absolutely terrible. Another one down. 
 
It' funny how people have wrong memories about Quake. Everytime a new game claims to be "Quake inspired!!" or "90's gameplay!! just like Quake!!" i already know the developer is talking about an arena full of weapons and monsters, lots and lots of monsters running around like crazy, attacking in waves/hordes"... well, this is Serious Sam, not Quake. Back in the 90's the Quake engine couldn't even handle six enemies on screen at the same time... well, the engine could handle, but the computers don't.

So, I do not know which game these guys played in the 90's, but it was not Quake. 
Amen 
 
 
But tbh, many people think that "Quake" alone refers to Quake III Arena.

Hellbound may be partially Q3A inspired, specially in the sound fx. The thing is, Q3A didn't have a proper single player mode... so, tacking on a Serious Sam horde approach may be what a single player "Quake" experience means to them. 
 
99% of the time they are developers who never really played Quake, and at some point during development of their "retro game" they just fired up Quake Live for "reference" and ran around a bit with bots.

Still, that at least might have inspired them with highly connected, z-aware combat spaces, but then again when they don't know they're even looking for that stuff, they tend not to notice it even when it's staring them in the face. 
 
#146 
SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
MINIMUM:
Graphics: DirectX11 Compatible GPU with 512 MB Video RAM
 
 
Are U A 90's Kid ? 
 
Ha! I'm an 80s kid, born in '79. Try better. 
Raises Hand Slooowly 
 
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