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Modern Retro Shooters / Quake Spiritual Successors
Wonder If A Specific Retro-shooter Thread Is Warranted?
#10166 posted by Shambler [] on 2017/08/27 11:32:00

It is! Separate thread because there's a lot of these sort of games, the ethos of them is particularly relevant to this board, and it's inhabitants seem to have some good varying opinions on the matter.

Quake as the eptiome as 90s action FPS:

Very direct control and physics
Simple streamlined gameplay
Brutal visceral and gory
Weird fantasy / gothic / industrial theme
Grungy, coherent graphics
Cool map designs / architecture (for the time)
Varied but consistent bestiary
(many of the above adhered to and greatly enhanced by subsequent custom content)

We all like these aspects, we all like these aspects in other games, we all want to see more of those games, possibly combined with modern graphical styles (Quake Chumpions MAPS might be an example of how far this could go) and maybe very limited modern additions (crouching? an inventory? coherent story? - but nothing that gets in the way of solid action). We perhaps want the next Quake / 90s action FPS spiritual successor...

Modern Retro Shooters:

...and lo, there's a neverending stream of modern retro games many of which are unabashedly marketting themselves as 90s action FPS spiritual successors and particularly highlighting speed, direct control, simple action, limitless violence. Do they have what it takes to hit that mark though??


Amid Evil




Ion Maiden





Devil Daggers





Without wanting to opine too much, there seems to be a general trend of possibly not hitting the mark despite some attempts to do so, with a huge variety in how much potential those attempts show, as well as how close these games are to realising the overall harmonious game quality of a typical best 90s action FPS. I.e. Some games seem to do some aspects right, but don't seem to get all the aspects in balance and appealing together.

*as The Epitome OF* 
fu otp.x 
Shambler's Threads 
Are the real spiritual successor to Quake. 
Another contender (haven't played it): Midnight Ultra

Got a few thoughts on theme/atmosphere at least... will put those in a separate post. 
While I haven't played or heard of everything on that list, there seems to be two main flaws that most of the 'new wave of retro shooters' always hit. The first is name-dropping every old school shooter they can think of, by name specifically, in the game's trailer- Doom, Quake, Heretic, and Hexen, primarily- but playing much more like Serious Sam instead, full of large but enclosed arenas with waves of identical enemies for the player to mow down. The second is a graphical complaint- either making the game too dated looking, worse than the actual FPSs of the time, or trying to make it look like Quake 1-era graphics but ignoring palette limitations, texture scaling, etc. so it looks like a typical ugly Darkplaces mod.

Also, controversial opinion: these types of games rely very heavily on good level design, this site still existing being an obvious testament to that, and using procedural/random generation for your levels (no matter how many rooms you've made) immediately makes them crap. 
The style of old school shooters was the way it was not due to artistic styling, but hardware limitations.

This notion is completely ignored in the surge of "retro-style" shooters. 
Skipping mechanics chat for a minute:

By coincidence I was thinking about Quake atmosphere this morning, as a result of poking around in some of the Quake Champions maps recently. Those maps are impressive in many ways, but don't have a Quake (1) atmosphere despite I think some intentions in that direction.

Quake had some weird worlds. Partly because it was made by a weird group of dudes, partly because of technical limitations (e.g. low polygon count, and restricted color set because of so many palette indices dedicated to lighting shades). But for whatever reason, it was all a bit "off-model" compared to more well-worn themes and settings.

Not to pick on the OP, but it's not really Gothic. It's also not Giger, or hell-and-demons, or Lord of the Rings fantasy, or Doom 3 style "future base with pipes and wires". It's a little sparse, low-tech, brutalist, swampy. It has spaces that seem to be waiting for something (the player, maybe). It's a little bit Lovecraftian and eventually downright abstract.

For an Actual Quake Sequel I'd want to see good takes on the specific Quake settings (base, runic, etc.) although I'm afraid that a modern game's art team wouldn't be able to get away from making them overly "busy" and overly more-like-this-other-familiar-thing.

For a retro shooter I'd really just like something that has the balls to go off-model like that. (Which is why I want to give Midnight Ultra a look when I have a chance.) And to ease back on the explanations and guides and interruptions that get in the way of letting the gameworld breathe.

Actually the thing that most tickled my retro-shooter-feel in the past couple of years might have been Teleglitch, although it's not an FPS. 
Looks great. Looking forward to this one. 
The Only One In That List That Hits The Mark Is Ion Maiden 
Because it's actually made on fucking Build. 
Don't Forget 

Keeping my fingers crossed for Ion Maiden. 
+ 1 Gibhard 
That's the only one I care about. Coincidentally I think it's the only one on that last made by someone with extensive mod + game industry experience 
last = list 
Gotta Be A Dungeon Crawler First 
Before it's a first person shooter. Anyone who manages that has it nailed. 
You Forget Paranautical Activity And Eldritch 
No I Didn;t Forget You Nugget, I Don't Know The Whole Fucking Lot. 
Also less listing games, more discussing whether this trend can work, whether the games you list can hit the mark, etc. 
I'll Look At The List In More Detail 
but I agree Gibhard looks excellent. Super-coherent look, great implementation of that pixel aesthetic. Low-ish res sprite weapons work great. The textures are appropriately low-res, unfiltered, and well executed. Effects all look good. Combat looks enjoyable.

Potential shortfall is obviously the fact that it's proc-gen and time will tell if that can be executed well. 
Oh And Of Course, Devil Daggers. 
Close to the Quake aesthetic. It's dingy and brown and pixellated, but it is actually hugely atmospheric and oppressive. It does that thing where the lack of detail causes your mind to fill in the blanks.

Only thing is it's so intense and oppressive, i find it a bit much after a while. I guess you could consider that a compliment. 
Not Really Interested 
To me majority of Quake mods and maps and also Doom mods and maps are far superior to these attempts.

Recently I have been playing "The Ultimate Torment and Torture Supportive Edition" with Brutaldoom and having a blast. I doubt any of the so-called retro titles can give me similar enjoyment. 
Brutaldoom is a decent TC whatevs, fuck the drama around SgtMarK who cares?

Better than above mentionned games as Kingold says.

I think there is real bank to be made on a real "oldschool" FPS a la Quake 1 - it will create a following and proper hype, the public is ready for it and all they get is the (mostly crap) listed above to try hard as they can to enjoy for want of that having that "old school fps" experience again.

For this to work though the way of stripping it down (procgen, ridiculously low res simple gfx etc) is not the way to go, it needs to be done in a GRAND way.
Super art direction (but simple efficient limited engine), low system specs - awesome performance 100+ fps easy on weaker systems (how can one justify shit perfoamnce on "retro" ?) real SP campaign, good MP & great netcode with dedic private and public servers etc etc, moddability and mappability.

Not an undertaking for a small low funds indie team I don't think but who knows...

I know we are on func, and its obvious, but the extent of beauty being pulled out of the Q1 engine from the quality of custom maps being made these days is a perfect example of what a large well funded art team should of such a project would be working on (and not endless wow fx multi artist team assets) 
On and yeah, another "modern" touch that could go a long way - great fucking sound design with great fucking sound tech - a la positional stuff in Thief.

There is a great deal that can be done with the diverting of the massive art team resources put in AAA games towards more polishing, the subtle touches and generally quality over quantity to make a "retro" fps feel like much much more than just that.

And AAA quake 1 2017 could be made and very profitable if a few execs somewhere had the vision.. 
i think it's wishful thinking that a publisher would put a "big" budget into a retro shooter. Way less bankable than a modern shooter with AAA graphics, no matter how predictable those can be. 
My Thoughts 
Here's a brief list of what I perceptive as mistakes and shortcomings found in modern "retro" FPS games (and their remedies):

• absence of proper level design - level design is the very core of a good FPS. you can have a phenomenal aesthetic and clever ai, but that is absolutely no substitute for real, good level design. inversely, a game can have a lackluster aesthetic and dumb ai but still be a very good game by virtue of it's level design. IMO, if one had to choose a single most important aspect of a game it would be this. sadly, level design seems to me the most overlooked in the modern retro FPS scene.

• inappropriate/inconsistent art style - this one is pretty self-explanatory. execution goes a long way, even uninteresting or derivative designs can hold their own if executed properly. IMO, I think that materials (bumps, norms, specs, etc) are not only often inappropriate, but poorly executed as well. even materials subtly and tastefully used are still ultimately out of place. spend time making one good diffuse map rather than throwing in all the bells and whistles because you can. also, I don't remember any FPS from the days of old that used 8-bit music.

• unrestrained and haphazard design - classic FPSes were defined by outside limitations (hardware, tools, etc). this created not only a certain look, but a feel. these games oozed creativity that is often a product of the devs working within and around these limitations. modern retro FPS devs need to think deeply about appropriate limits, impose them, adhere to them and work creatively within them.

• respect the player - there is a strong temptation to "dumb-down" and "hand-hold". I sympathize, but stop it. understand your audience, they're much more experienced and astute than you give them credit for. also, don't swing too far in the other direction. making something stupidly difficult or obtuse is not good design and it's not retro. these games need to be pleasurably challenging and rewarding.

• one-dimensionality - this is more general but is a common trait among these games. The "retro" aspect is approached more as a gimmick than an ethos. devs seem to pick a single and often easily identifiable attribute of oldsclochool FPSes (pixelation, lowpoly, speed, gore) and run with it, seemingly in a vacuum. this results in a caricature, exaggerated and shallow, rather than an authentic classic fps experience. oldschool FPSes are often more nuanced than people think and are a careful balance of many things.

It's not enough to execute one of these correctly. You have to hit all of them. I'm sure there's more to add to this list (there is) but I have stuff to do :D 
Killpixel I Only Read Your Titles. 
And I already think I agree 100%. 
I intended to keep it at bullet points with maybe a single sentence explanation but ended up getting a little wordy :/

the bold text makes a good TL;DR 
i think it's wishful thinking that a publisher would put a "big" budget into a retro shooter.

DOOM 2016 would like a word... 
that was in response to

There is a great deal that can be done with the diverting of the massive art team resources put in AAA games towards more polishing, the subtle touches and generally quality over quantity to make a "retro" fps feel like much much more than just that.

Doom 2016 is as AAA and modern as they come (obviously the gameplay takes inspiration from classic shooters and rewards action etc) 
Killpixel's Game Should Be Added To The List 
He sounds like and definitely looks like, he knows what he is doing. 
Doom2016 indeed is a an example of a modern FPS taking more retro mechanics and having success.

I think this is highly underestimated : the wow factor achievable if the human resources poured into the crafting all the stuff needed for impressive modern gfx were poured into doing more with less a la Quake1.

You got to think the scale, detail and polish achievable. Of course there would be no reasons to have any limits on level size, number of brushes etc, not for the purpose or silly-level acrchitectural detail but rather gigantic maps

Imagine this kind of stuff on an insane scale, where you can see off kilometers into the distance (using modern gfx power for high render res and max AA etc to keep all that lovingly designed crisp detail as much as possible)

These AAA level human resources can be busy with scripting actual events in the distance while you make you way thorugh the episode sized level, eg enemy and friendly forces fighting far off in the distance, actually happening in level in engine

I think that in todays almost bland me-too AAA eyecandy gfx this would actual have a much higher impact than classis "gud gfx" 
Doom 4 barely has anything retro in it though, apart from keycards and maybe the health drops from monsters that is vaguely similar to Life Essence in Blood. The progression is almost the same as Painkiller's which is absolutely NOT a retro FPS.

Also killpixel is spot on. 
killpixel's project looks fantastic and nails the the retro-shooter aesthetic. No wonder his critique of modern shooters is also so spot on. 
Killpixel's Ain't Included On The List Because.... so far doesn't like it's going to fit in with "a general trend of not hitting the mark" ;) 
now that's a hot trend 
Aw Shucks, Guys 
wait till you get your hands on the demo then decide if it belongs on a list :D 
are you going to use us to make maps for your game?

Hmm. I'm tempted to give you a cute answer like "maybe :)" but that wouldn't satisfy me if I were asking. So to be frank (and probably overly candid) yes, it is intended that the level design team will be comprised of people from the quake, doom and duke nukem 3d communities. HOWEVER, I have not started assembling the team and I'm still quite a ways away. There are still things to be done, things that remain be seen and others that have yet to fall into place. The project's destiny will be clearer after the demo (I'm doing my best to get it out Q1 2018).

So there you go :D 
Only Interested In A Few 
Dusk, Ion Maiden, Amid Evil and Gibhard.

Most retro inspired shooters are not good. Strafe is one of the big name examples where they failed to properly do the genre justice. Most of them aren't even as good as Strafe. 
Strafe is a roguelike-ish FPS, not a Quake clone. 
My Perfect Retro-modern Fps 
Graphics/asthetics like Devil Daggers, hub-centered world design and combat pacing similar to that of Hexen, slow but not too slow, Quake-style thematic variations, just enough big-picture polish for effect without going overboard into minute details. 
Devil Daggers Is Cool 
albeit it's far more akin to an FPS version of scoring shmups where the point is NOT "good level design" in the traditional sense but rather in continually replaying the same stages with the same patterns over and over with the goal of self-improvement, beating records, etc. As a highly casual occasional shmup player I can appreciate that; not really my preferred cup of tea, but it's a really good game that's trying to do something much different from old school FPS, however it was marketed. It has the aesthetic down to a T, though, that's for sure.

Doom 2016 is awesome. It's obviously much more in a Painkiller/Serious Sam vein, but it blows those games out of the water in its execution.

I haven't played any of the others mentioned in this thread but I will probably check out the ones Fifth mentioned, and any others that people care to recommend (assuming they don't use procedural level generation). 
New Apocryph Trailer 
Doesn't impress me - Doom 3-style lighting, narrow cluttered rooms, boring enemies, boring trailer.

Anyway here it is 
boring music too. 
Aye. Pretty Sure My Favourite Old Skool Shooters... 
...weren't box rooms full of bouncing jello blobs which you can hardly see because of the blinding rave effects from the weapons.

I don't mind the lighting tho. 
truly awful particle effects 
That Looks Really Cool 
what game is that? 
One of those Dark Souls games

Thing is you can go anywhere you see there

This is what I was talking about a few posts back

Integrate to a "low detail" engine the really great parts of modern tech such as one big detailed level you can travel to any part you see of. 
There's nothing oldschool about Doom 2016. It's pretty much just Serious Sam with less enemies and more arenas that lock you in place. Unlike Serious Sam, when you're low on health or ammo enemies just start shooting them out like pinatas so the player never has to think about ammo conservation or health. Even Doom 3 felt more "oldschool" with handplaced encounters, resource management, secrets scattered around maps that aren't collectible bobbleheads, and movement mechanics and Doom 3 is the last game that comes to mind when thinking about oldschool. 
I Agree With Anon 
Doom 3 is more old school than Doom 2016 (D3 is essentially quake2 at half speed). D3 and D2016 are both rather different games, IMO. As matter of fact, I just beat D3 twice back-to-back this last week (I love the atmosphere, art, sound, animations and general vibe).

I've only beaten D2016 3-4 times and have replayed several of the levels many times. The health-on-demand system really is a deal-breaker for me. I try to compensate by playing on the hardest difficulty and by turning off most hud elements but even then I know it's just an illusion - health is at my fingertips should I ever need it. I really don't care for the arenas at all, either. Don't get me wrong, it's a good game in its own right, but it falls short in some meaningful ways for me. Had they ditched the infinite health and boring arenas the game would have much more staying power for me.

However, Foundry, Argent Facility and Argent Facility (Destroyed) are some of the most pleasing play spaces I've seen in any game. 
(D3 is essentially quake2 at half speed)

Quake 2 at half speed is Quake 4, not Doom 3.

Doom 3 was id's attempt at implementing the Half-Life style of scripted storytelling, which was hugely popular at the time. This, together with the heavier renderer, resulted in the slower pacing.

Let's not forget that Quake 1 is also slower than classic Doom. The speed in Quake was reduced to make the levels seem bigger, since the Quake renderer couldn't match the performance of the Doom renderer in big areas back them. One of the first criticisms about Quake was that the levels never featured more than 5 enemies at the same time (which I'm not sure if it's actually true, btw). 
Doom 2016 
Doom 2016 was closer to the original Doom than Doom 3, so if you want to get finnicky, Doom 2016 is the most oldskool of the two because Doom 1 & 2 are older than Doom 3.

Semantics aside, I personally found D2016 a pretty good compromise between old and newskool norms. Yes it may have arena battles, but you can tell that each arena has been well designed and the monster encounters carefully choreographed and timed, so it's a travesty to compare that to Painkiller that just throws a shitload of the same enemy in to a square arena, or Serious Sam that just spawns a giant horde in the distance and lets it run straight at you. 
The Explanation Of The Bullshit: 
1. SS focused on horde combat, D4 didn't.

2. SS very wide open spaces with little variance, D4 tighter more 3D areas with cover.

3. D4 coherent theme throughout. SS much less so.

4. D4 themed bestiary throughout. SS much less so.

5. So-called pinata thing not the god-mode that morons think it is. Plenty of risks and timing involved. 
DOOM 4 was good.

DooM^3 was bullshit.

Hope this helps. 
Gibhard Looks Neat 
I like the lighting and explosion effects (that dithered smoke is awesome). The procedural generation is not just a sticking together of premade rooms but rather premade wall, floor, ceiling, posts pieces that are modularly (that's a word right?) put together. The maker says he has taken a lot of time to get the generation to work in a way that balances randomness with design. I'm assuming that means that he has "sets" of pieces that are more likely to come together in the generation to make room designs that are randomized in size, shape, etc.

I'm intrigued. Sounds like what I would do. Hope it turns out. 
Quake 2 at half speed is Quake 4

Quake 2 at 1/8 speed is Quake 4 :)

Aside from the movement speed, visuals, PDAs, and Q2's hub system, Doom 3 and Quake 2 are practically identical. You may recall one of the primary criticisms of Doom 3 at the time was that it offered nothing new in regards to gameplay.

I personally found D2016 a pretty good compromise between old and newskool norms

I agree, especially in the context that it's a contemporary AAA title targeted at the masses and console platforms. I'm not sure they could have toed the line any better within those parameters.

So-called pinata thing not the god-mode that morons think it is.

Speaking as a moron, I would have to disagree. The pinata/glory kill combo is very, very strong. Pinatas + glory kills + chainsaw and you are god. period.

Here's a two minute video of me clearing an arena in Lazarus Labs with only the SS and GK while walking and playing like an xXxGam3rK1d420xXx. I even took my armor down to zero before engaging. Disclaimer: it's only on UV. I reinstalled to let a friend check it out and Id/Zenimax won't let you select Nightmare until you've completed the game on one of the easy difficulties (lol).

Plenty of risks and timing involved.

That's my main gripe, there really isn't nearly as much as there appears to be. Doom2016 is a Doom themed Disney ride - the player's skill level has little bearing on the overall experience. It's a great ride but it gets old fast. Sure, you can self-impose limits to make the game more challenging (no glory kills, chainsaw, grenades, etc) but that's totally lame. Self-restraint is the last thing I want to practice when playing an FPS, especially Doom. 
In That Case 
good thing I (apparently) sucked at Doom 2016 so I could have a blast with it. 
Huh. I was sure I played on Nightmare first time. I thought only Ultra-Nightmare (permadeath) was locked out. 
I've Enjoyed 
...every Doom I've played. Including the turn-based Java game for phones. They all have their strengths. I'd say my favorite was Doom 2 but that's because that is when I started mapping.

Doom 3's sound design and positional audio in 5.1 was pretty mind blowing, but then I am a sound design nut.

The back and forth about all this is entertaining tho.

I'm with @lpowell - but I suck at most games. I don't play them for the challenge or the sense of accomplishment... I play for fun. 
It was fun and no game came close to looking as good in 2004. I bought a new computer just to play it. It wasn't the hordefest that the previous games were but it was cool in its own right 
Jesus fucking christ, is there still no Doom2016 mod to remove the pinata shit ? such a simple mod, such a good idea... ??? 
Killpixel Next Time Put Ur Name To That So You Don't Get Confused... 
...with anons, please.

Also skim reading your posts you've obviously played a LOT of D4, enough to know it very well, so yeah you might find stuff easier than normal players. 
I was lying awake in the middle of the night thinking about what to post about Doom4, and now I can't be fucked. So just imagine my words of wisdom are actually here, whatever. 
More Games For The List 
Project Warlock

@lpowell - If I sounded like an elitist snob saying that only noobs would enjoy Doom2016 then I communicated my thoughts poorly. The gist is that, IMO, Doom2016's strength is more in it's spectacle rather than it's mechanics.

@dumptruck - Sometimes the challenge is the fun :D

@qmaster - Nice find!

@shambler - So just imagine my words of wisdom are actually here

Imagining so hard right now. 
Dear Santa,

need edit button, no write good.

Project Warlock looks alright, they've actually placed some restrictions on themselves. That Shootrage one looks more like a badly made mid 2000s FPS than a good 90s one. 
The monsters in Doom 4 also don't look demonic in the slightest. You can tell the designer for them worked on Pacific Rim because they look like kaiju rather than actual demons. The game itself also has proper MP rather than a halo clone. If Doom 3 SP had always run it would be better off. 
Nice Wrong Opinions 
Try coming up with an actual argument please.This looks like something out of Pacific Rim 
Your Face Is Out Of Pacific Rim. 
Post with a name and try again. 
You are wrong 
I haven't played Doom 2016 yet, nor have I seen Pacific Rim, but going through I get the point anon is making. The Possessed/zombies look fairly Doom-like, as does the Baron of Hell (that thing is awesome!) the Mancubus, and the Cacodemon, sort of.

The Hellguard, the Cyber Demon, this guy ( ) the Hell Knight and the Pinky look more like some kind of alien rather than demons to me. 
The Possessed Security and Possessed Soldiers look a lot like strogg, I assumed they were a call back to Quake 2 and 4. 
Link To The Right Wikipedia

The wikia is run by nazi 
Get out. How dare you mention those 2 abomin4tions. Don't you know Quake has never had an actual sequel?

(Quake 3 is only half an attempt since it's singleplayer sucked, ie didn't have any.) 
Well This Is A Possibility. less of the retro but plenty of the possibility of old skool visceral action. Unlike a lot of these games it seems to have a really strong theme and atmosphere.

Painkiller and Bulletstorm devs, well if they can lose the general hodgepodge hordiness of Painkiller, and pretty much everything about Bulletstorm, it could be good.... 
Great Graphics 
the scale seems a bit whack though, like the player character's two foot tall or something. Could be intentional, but it doesn't come across that way to me. 
Looks really nice, but that's the thing... Of all the games i've ever played, Ethan Carter was the only one to ever give me motion sickness. I hope I don't have the same experience with this. 
Yeah, I've watched this trailer like 10 times already (I'm the filthy anon that double-posted this last night). I love the aesthetic but have some reservations in regards to gameplay. The trailer looks like a very, very, very pretty Painkiller with abilities. Early in wrath, there was an ability, spririt leap, that was basically identical the one one demonstrated in the video (@0:50ish). I had this there to make up for the slow player movement. In the end, boosted player speed was more fun. I feel like that's what they're going for: a slower, somewhat tactical approach. It could be really cool, but I think the gameplay will be pretty slow, but it's too soon to tell. Honestly, with that aesthetic, I'd still play the shit out of it even with Painkiller gameplay :D

@text_fish - the scale seems a bit whack though, like the player character's two foot tall or something

I would bet it's absolutely intentional. Pretty oldschool, too. Not only is quakeguy short, but the camera is in his chest, same with Doomguy... and Duke Nukem... and Caleb... 
have you tried the Apocryph alpha? They added a blurry effect when turning that gave me a similar sensation.

A supposedly game based on 20 years old gameplay that produces dizziness when played that way is ridiculous. I could only go forward or backwards during the combats due to that. 
Motion Sickness 
1. Excessive headbob = worst offender
2. Motion blur = redundant garbage
3. Depth of field = redundant...your eyes do that for you. 
I Despise Headbob. 
Not least because it is completely stupid fake bullshit. In real life your mind / balance compensates for the headbob in your vision so when you're running it doesn't feel like you're bouncing around all over the fucking place - because hey 40,000 years of evolution have worked that out. Maybe in another 40,000 years devs will work out that something that is simultaneously unrealistic AND wrong AND detrimental shouldn't be in their games. 
Basic rule of thumb: assume people have poor eyesight and don't need any help blurring things further either through motion, filtering, etc. Don't make it more of a chore to enjoy the game. 
That fucking FOV in Witchfire though X_X
The fuck is wrong with people 
Looks Like Console Standard 65 Fov 
We can hope they have an adjustment in the settings. It's a contentious enough issue that it should be standard in all PC/MAC/Linux versions of the game. I'm not too fond myself of anything above 80 or 85 depending on if it is an indoor or outdoor game but to each his own. 
That fucking FOV in Witchfire though X_X

Yeah, it's pretty terrible. Hopefully it's just for the teaser to get that cinematic feel. 
Its like having fucking glaucoma, I don't understand the attraction of claustrophobic tunnel vision, console OR pc, its fucking awfull no matter where.

Is it due to the limitations of controllers for FPS? then fucking find another / better way to play FPS from the couch ffs. 
It's due to performance. Lower FOV = Higher Performance because you have less to draw on screen. Historically the consoles have been less performant than PC rigs.

There is also the "screen-is-like-looking-out-a-window" theory which says that people feel wierd if they can see more "out" their computer moniter than would be possible if it were a window. This is of course complete nonsense. 
Heres a fucking solution for the peasants

But as you say, historically. Its time to drop that awfull fucking shit. 
lol i remember lowering the screensize in doom to get better fps 
Bump For DaZ Who Has Been Living In A Cave.... 
Cube 2 / Sauerbraten 
Tsk.. how can a thread like this forget it even has its own icon on this messageboard! Certainly was designed to stay very close to Quake in terms of gameplay and level design in particular. Some of the best maps for it are by Quake mappers like our own Metlslime no less! 
Shit Dude. 
Admittedly sauerbraten is quite old now compared to to the young pretenders.... 
And Hasn't Had An Update 
in the last five years.

But it is still good: while the AI is quite bad i have it installed for a quick play from time to time. 
I have a map in the SVN for Tesseract, (Cube 3, I guess?) if anyone wants to check it out. It's... not great, but not awful either. It would probably be better if Tesseract had better gameplay. 
Alphacorp Btw 
could you provide a link or something? All i could find was what seems like a guild/faction of what it seems an exploration game called Star Citizen. On the other side Tesseract was easy to find and will play for a bit. I think this is all you need to play it. Just find the map in the menu. 
i understand now. I thought that you got the name of the game wrong, and that it was Alphacorp and not Tesseract, not that you were talking about the name of your map, my bad.

But this one died quickly, i couldn't find a web that has something about the game apart from 2013-2015 save Quadropolis and one in 2009, but on the other hand your link shows lots of recent updates.

By the way, good map there, it runs faster than the detail would make it seem. Pity i couldn't play much as i couldn't see the way to change keys. 
in light of this revelation I just want to say that the weapons for wrath have been done for some time :P 
We know the score hombre. :) 
Man, all this stuff is so heavy on the presentation and light on the gameplay mechanics. I just want oldskool SP gameplay, not necessarily all the dudebro actionflick stuff or bathroom-tile sized pixels. Also 2.5d map design kinda sucks compared to full 3d, give me that sweet z-axis action, damnit. No one in the nineties actually wanted that limitation. 
FAO Devs: 
[11:08] Shambler: retro is not about recapturing the "shitness" of the 1990s, it's about recapturing the good bits 
Has Anyone Else Here 
given dusk a spin? 
Dusk SP 
Dusk: at the moment it's good, not great. Has potential. Very much focused on gameplay over looks.

Interesting map designs, lots of z-axis. No fall damage. Fast movement. Enemies lack variety in attacks imo. Weapons mainly hitscan, firing them feels nice, good sounds also. Maps are short and key/gate based. The maps progress in theme, but very gradually, with a unified color palette, felt nice. Got lost a couple of times, so that part felt rightly oldskool, haha. The music is great. The boss fights (there's 3 iirc) are tame. As for difficulty, I played it on medium difficulty and didn't die once, though I went through some low-health situations. It'll probably be a breeze for any experienced Quake player. Jumping feels very different to Quake, had to get used to it.

Lots and lots (and lots) of winks to older shooters, it's very much a hodgepodge of unashamedly stolen ideas. I had fun playing through the first episode. I hope a newer release will bring some more variety in maps and enemies, and perhaps weapons (that said, it's probably already more varied than most shooters). 
The presentation is very lo-fi, but considering this thing is 90% the work of a single developer I think that's totally the right decision. 
@StillTooLazyToRegister - I agree somewhat, your assessment seems more realistic than the steam reviews.

Level Design - I disagree with many reviewers on this point. Dusk's poor level design is probably its greatest shortcoming. As a result, the game is boring, easy and exploitable (I was a able to bypass a keyed door by stacking barrels).

Visuals - yep.

Weapons - Overall, they feel pretty good with nice feedback.

Sound & Music - Sound is good. The music is the most polished thing in the game.

at the moment it's good, not great. Has potential.

I would say at the moment it's not good but has potential.

I've seen this game called a "love letter to oldschool FPSes". IMO, it's more of a doodle on a post-it note than a love letter.

I'm somewhat puzzled. DUSK has good steam reviews as well as positive reviews from the likes of LGR and GGManLives. I must be out of touch or missing something; as a massive fan of retro shooters DUSK is not hitting any of the right notes for me. 
The Current Trend For Retro Shooters 
is really just a race to the bottom for most devs, I think. The vast majority of their target-audience haven't played any 90's shooters for 20-odd years, so they'll be satisfied with a few cheap visual hooks and some silly monsters. Obviously like any trend this will bottom out leaving some room for the devs who are putting the time in to make a genuinely good game, but by that point a lot of the people jizzing over things like Dusk will have happily returned to the AAA thrills of Call of Duty 83768. 
more like target-audience haven't played anything in the 90s by not existing and wanting to live in the mystical "90s are best" time. 
dae le h8 90s kids amirite 
Proof Dusk Is Good Game 
It's nothing new, there were loads of shitty FPS in the early 90s too that were obviously just made to jump on the Doom clone bandwagon. Taking that into account I'm going to say that the current string of shovelware is the true retro FPS revival but that's going to be an opinion that grates with just about everyone else here. 
DUKS (Not Quack) 
Full disclosure... I hang out in the New Blood Discord all the time and have been playing DUSK since pre-orders became available on Steam last year.

DUSK is the real deal. It isn't perfect. It sure as heck isn't Quake... but it's worth your time. DUSK could easily be mistaken for cynical nostalgia bait, but the creator has a real love for his inspirations. The winks and nods are there, but it never devolves into cheap pandering. The game has it's own voice and doesn't rely on references.

It's fun to play because the developer obviously has fun making it. There is an emphasis on FEEL which I appreciate. One might take for granted the SMOOTHNESS of movement but it's something that received a great deal of attention.

Not everyone will dig the level design. It's more Build than it is DOOM/Quake, with semi-realistic environments that never become so abstract or puzzling. I find them atmospheric and fun to explore nonetheless.

The music is 10/10. The ambient tracks are my jam.

I'm a picky gamer who is easily fussed so of course I have my gripes. But the only real caveat I can offer is that DUSK is simply too easy.

"Cero Miedo" is DUSK's UV or Hard equivalent. It never demands enough of the player for me to slip into a flow-state. When I think about level sets like Ancient Aliens or Arcane Dimensions, I remember specific fights so engaging that my keyboard and mouse dissolved in my hands. You know what I'm talking about. DUSK's combat unfortunately never rides that hallowed line between fun and frustrating. It is FUN however. It's challenging enough to keep me interested and like I mentioned before, it just feels great to control.

There is "Intruder Mode" which I recommend. You start every level with only sickles. Even on this mode, "Cero Miedo" is still too easy. "DUSKMARE" is DUSK's gimmick difficulty. You die in one hit. Challenging yeah, but not a replacement for proper difficulty through encounter design.

It's an easy recommendation for FPS fans. Especially now that Steam has refunds, you literally have nothing to lose. ;p

BTW I have pre-alpha access to AMID EVIL and it is incredible. It's already more challenging than DUSK and looks gorgeous in motion. Videos really don't do it justice. Look out for that one. 
looks and sounds like shit. pass 
Some anon posted it earlier in the thread, but Revulsion seems to be coming along nicely. 
Revulsion.... a good description of what I feel looking at that. I did enough fucking Lego as a kid and don't want my FPS games made out of it. 
Quake Vs Modern Retro: 
Reborn just publish it's steam page!

the trailer looks and feels awesome 
Not Very Modern Retro Really. 
But does look promising. 
Looks good, not really retro but more of an evolution 
The Wastes

Technically more of a total conversion / mod than new game, but looks kinda cool and is promoted as a throwback 
Box Rooms Botmatch Ahoy. 
Re: The Wastes 
I'd make maps for that. The car stuff looks pretty decent. The tire marks are a fun touch. Not liking the puffy blood effects tho. 
Re: The Wastes 
If there are any questions regarding content creation, I can answer them if you like. We'd totally love to have workshop integration at some point. 
Indeed, our color palette features a variety of brown colors! So does Quake actually. I didn't think you'd mind, Anonymous-Proxy guy. 
Feel free to post your workflow here. Are you using Q3Radiant or similar to create the game? Since Dusk is using a TrenchBroom variant for their user-content creation would you consider the same thing? 
While I got introduced to mapping with Q3 Radiant, I ultimately had spent most of my time working with Hammer and so did my colleague Megan. We came out of the Half-Life modding scene and so we adapted J.A.C.K. a few years ago. It seemed like the best idea at the time and it certainly bridged the transition to Q3 BSP for her. However we'd like to move away from it in and we encourage usage of Radiant instead due to the lack of updates and support for certain features we've been waiting for.

Some more technical background info:
We're a two head team. I do some mapping, but most of the heavy lifting is done by Megan, as is the rest of the content work. I am responsible for the programming mainly (everything but the engine). Technically the engine is FTE QuakeWorld, but we have a custom configuration setup that only implements the idTech 3 formats and focuses on that toolchain. It's the first real game made using FTE I believe and a lot of functionality was implemented by Spike for us upon request. Things such as OpenAL reverb presets (for environmental sound effects) and our custom model format, based on IQM.

I hope that people other than us will take advantage of that in their Quake mods, but so far priorities have not shifted from 'the usual' yet. Maybe one day.

The game will ship with its own SDK, containing game-logic, source texture files, as well as the input model files for our model compiler.

We hope to shape the game during its lifespan a bit game-play wise. It'd be incredible if we get it right the same day the game comes out, but it's unlikely to happen. Certainly balancing is one of the many problems in a game with 30+ weapons, vehicles and an abilities system. I fear we'll get some flak from the competitive scene if they ever come across it, but that's honestly not the audience we are looking for. 
This Is 
like DMSP, simplified, and with no maps.

If at least the maps were interesting ... 
That Is Barely An Engine Test And Complete Garbage. 
Please post stuff that is vaguely relevant. 
Talking Of Complete Garbage. 
Hellbound """gameplay""". Absolutely terrible. Another one down. 
It' funny how people have wrong memories about Quake. Everytime a new game claims to be "Quake inspired!!" or "90's gameplay!! just like Quake!!" i already know the developer is talking about an arena full of weapons and monsters, lots and lots of monsters running around like crazy, attacking in waves/hordes"... well, this is Serious Sam, not Quake. Back in the 90's the Quake engine couldn't even handle six enemies on screen at the same time... well, the engine could handle, but the computers don't.

So, I do not know which game these guys played in the 90's, but it was not Quake. 
But tbh, many people think that "Quake" alone refers to Quake III Arena.

Hellbound may be partially Q3A inspired, specially in the sound fx. The thing is, Q3A didn't have a proper single player mode... so, tacking on a Serious Sam horde approach may be what a single player "Quake" experience means to them. 
99% of the time they are developers who never really played Quake, and at some point during development of their "retro game" they just fired up Quake Live for "reference" and ran around a bit with bots.

Still, that at least might have inspired them with highly connected, z-aware combat spaces, but then again when they don't know they're even looking for that stuff, they tend not to notice it even when it's staring them in the face. 
Graphics: DirectX11 Compatible GPU with 512 MB Video RAM
Are U A 90's Kid ? 
Ha! I'm an 80s kid, born in '79. Try better. 
Raises Hand Slooowly 
Anons Please Stop Posting Stuff That Is Off-topic Trolling. 
The Wastes at least runs on a Pentium II with a Viper V550. I would not recommend it though. GL 1.4 or higher definitely recommended. 
Well hellbound looks like a tarted up mobile phone game 
Just looking over all the games linked in this thread, they're all shit. Complete fucking shit. Just looking at that Dusk gameplay video above, god damn look at the barn and corn fields!! If anyone made something like that in Quake it'd be deleted off my hdd instantly.

Anything that might even look remotely okay and as if it's actually been "designed" or have okay graphics, will wreck it with retarded Serious Sam gameplay. Because that's what all the born in the 2000s indie kids think 90s games were like.

Witchfire looks decent, but I would hold my judgement on that until further into development. The team have only done one little 1 hr mod that wasn't even that great. Trailer looks awesome but can they keep up the quality over an entire game? Will the game even play like that?

Devil Daggers looks like a college students tech-demo project made while on acid, not an actual game. But at least we're getting closer to 90s style games compared to what we had 10 years ago when there was nothing. 
Based on some of the dung games you actively choose to play and review on here, I trust your experience of "complete fucking shit" and tend to agree with that post :) 
I can't agree more. DUSK is such a toxic, septic pile of trash. I question the good taste and mental faculties of anyone who finds anything about it remotely passable.

We truly are in the darkest timeline, where the "90s fps revival" we wanted is a continous stream of pixellated, worse-looking-than-Postal diarrhea from millenials with art history degrees. Box rooms with "art" of sub-doom quality and fidelity are now being tagged as "quake inspired" and shared with hundreds of retweets. What would have been absolute shovelware 15-20 years ago is being gushed about by "game" "journalists", an absolute subspecies of homo sapiens. I can only hope that when the neocon world order engineered by Milton Friedman & co collapses all those bearded, beanie wearing fucks will be put the against the wall by the proles in the first order.

It makes me pray for a worldwide socioeconomic crisis, that's how much of an affront against the senses DUSK is. 
Hard To Disagree There, Otp 
Also, don't forget chiptunes. Because as everyone knows back in the impossibly ancient 1990s Quake, Unreal, Half-Life etc. were just ALL about chiptunes! 
I don't know if somebody already post this, but this is Hellscreen. The page says "Hellscreen is a single player level based FPS, in the fast, frantic style of classic games from the 1990s (such as Doom, Quake, Unreal)"

oh, man... it's just another arena with waves of monsters chasing the player... of course it can be fun to play, but it has nothing to do with doom, quake or unreal. it doesn't look like or feel like any 90's game. why the developers can't just say "it's a pixelated FPS"? 
Well Called Tribal. 
Still there looks to be a fair chance for a typically uninspiring one man "tech" demo non-game to be not funded in time. 
ouch. I basically agree with all of that, it doesn't look fun to play or authentically 90s.

At the same time, i think he's made quite a cool aesthetic, it doesn't completely fail, although it does look completely headache inducing. 
Saviour ?

Ion Maiden in early access, Campaign in the early access too! 
From the Hellscreen kickstarter:

Second to second, you will be blasting enemies, dodging incoming attacks and progressing through a labyrinth of evil at breakneck speeds.

Interconnected maps - United by a hub world, travel back and forth between levels to unlock new areas and secrets as upgrades are purchased. Not able to jump to that high platform? Upgrade to the double jump and return later to claim your prize.
Designed & hand-crafted levels - no procedural generation, no randomness, no accidents. Pure, constructed levels specifically created to give the player the most intense & invigorating experience possible. Only designed levels can give you hell.
Manipulative environments - Change the level to suit your needs and combat scenarios. Taking too much fire? Shoot the columns to raise cover. See a trap meant for you? Trigger it to use on your enemies instead.

Frequently Asked Questions
Is this an Arena/endless wave game or more like levels in Doom, quake etc

Hellscreen is a level based game, similar to Doom, Quake, Unreal etc.

An endless, arena mode may be a stretch goal...

Anyway, it would have been better for him to have a completed level to showcase exactly what kind of level design should be expected. 
Hellscreen sounds ok, and the visuals would be pretty good if it didn't have that blue/red filter which kinda spoils any chance of having some visual diversity. 
ok, now i like it XD 
I recommend giving Ion Maiden a spin. I've been playing it this morning and thoroughly enjoying. 
Ion Maiden looks awesome!

A female version of Duke Nukem...

I like it =D 
The Ion Maiden demo is pretty much unplayable on my PC. Severe frame rate drops in the starting area just by turning the camera. The starting area is really small so it's baffling to me how bad performance is. 
Gggmanlives made a review of Ion Maiden's demo: 
#168 Beyond Pathetic And Will Always Get Censored. 
GGMan Review. 
I like how he talks about it being good for a "20 year old" engine that's been updated. 20 years old would be 98 i.e. Unreal, I would be happy to see how this looked on an updated Unreal engine......

Still if you're into that sort of thing i.e. pixels and does look like it does a much better job than almost all the other games. 
Dunno about the game in full, but from what I see, this does actually fit and execute the modern retro shooter as well as it should. I imagine if you're a Duke / ROTT / Blood fan then this is bang on. It has theme, coherence, purpose, proper level design etc. As I say it's not my bag for the style/GFX but one could consider it a tentative success.... 
Ion Maiden Feels Bad. 
Call me crazy but I believe smooth and responsive player/mouse movement should be the first priority of any FPS developer.

Great design and art just go to waste when the game feels bad to play. Shame.

Ion Maiden is ALMOST there, but the performance isn't even close to where it should be. Explosions see frames below 50 on a machine that never drops below 90 during the most demanding scenes of DOOM 2016. (1440p) Even when the game is maintaining 144 fps it stutters constantly. Vsync and framecaps don't eliminate it. Hopefully we see some real fixes from the devs soon. Build engine man...

When free and open source projects like GZDoom and QuakeSpasm have me playing DOOM and Quake (originally limited to 35 and 72 fps respectively) flawlessly at whatever framerate I want with super smooth and responsive gameplay, I find myself less than impressed with commercial products like the Turok remasters (limited to 60 fps) and Ion Maiden (hella janky overall). Eh... 
Ion Maiden is ALMOST there, but the performance isn't even close to where it should be. Explosions see frames below 50 on a machine that never drops below 90 during the most demanding scenes of DOOM 2016. (1440p)

Judging from the screenshots, this game uses a software renderer. Color blending is one of the slowest things in any software renderer. 
You can switch between software and OpenGL. It's literally EDuke32.

Both feel bad. Them boys got work to do. <3 
Thumbs up to Ion Maiden from what i've seen in that video. Can't comment on shitty performance but weapons look great, enemies look great. Environments look varied and interesting for that Duke urban setting.

I like the wolf3d style start screen and the female protagonist - nice flip of the not-funny-enough-to-be-ironic misogynist vibes of Duke. Got a Joanna (perfect) Dark vibe from it.

Don't particularly see the need for it to be on the Build engine if it's going to fuck up performance this bad. The technical limitations may have contributed to how authentic it feels however! 
Does it run bad even without the Polymer option? Try turning that off if you can, that thing runs bad everywhere.

I don't own the game so I'm just assuming you can turn it off seeing as its based on EDuke32. 
It ain't got no poly-woly, which means it also has no FOV options..!

I cap the frames at 141, Gsync stays active and that (mostly) smooths out the stutter. I recommend capping 3 or so frames below your monitor's refresh rate with r_maxfps.

This doesn't fix the remarkably janky movement and mouselook though. The game simply doesn't feel good to play. Hmm... 
You are suffering some bug/driver issue
Runs perfect here and this is not a hot shit system 
I don't have the game, but i saw a lot of let's plays on youtube and the game runs fast and smooth. I didn't see any problems with performance :/ 
I've bought Ion Maiden yesterday. The GL renderer is unplayable, and the software renderer is a bit slow at times but still runs as good as a 90s game in a 90s machine. 
There's a lot of folks talking about issues with performance and mouse input. I'ma wait for a bit to see if stuff gets ironed out. 
Come On Dude. 
IONed out at least ;) 
On the janky mouse movement...

"It's a limitation of the Build engine; there are only 2048 possible values for the player camera's yaw and only around 400 possible values for looking up and down.

However, I happen to be both the director of this game and the original author of EDuke32. I have a potential solution in mind that I think will allow us to address this, at least in OpenGL, without rewriting a ton of engine code.

Assuming my idea works out, we are planning on releasing a patch including this fix sometime in the next couple weeks. I don't care for the notchy aiming myself... I play a lot of Rainbow 6 and the difference is night and day.

But, we will improve things." -terminx

To the folks insisting that game footage looks "fast and smooth" or that it runs fine on their machine: A sub 60 framerate on capable hardware isn't the issue.

I run at a nearly constant 144. But that can dip into the 50s momentarily when the engine is buckling under effect heavy sequences. If the idea is to optimize an old engine for modern hardware, THEN OPTIMIZE IT FOR MODERN HARDWARE. I shouldn't be seeing lower lows than DOOM 2016 in Ion Maiden.

The performance issues are secondary to the mouse issue anyway. The "notchy" movement is what's really ruining the experience. I hope the fix works because I really want to enjoy and recommend this game. 
Should Have Used Unity 
Fucking diva's. Whats with the animosity to devs ? Its an early access.
There is obv a usual bullshit driver issue along the way. OpenGL renderer unplayable ? butterfucking smooth here 0 slowdown ever, on a fucking sub 100€ radeon R7 360... o_O ? 
Killes man... how long have you been doing this PC gaming thing? You understand a game can have issues on people's systems even if yours happens to work ok right?

Discussing problems is not "animosity". (Aside from #186 which I assume is a joke.) 
What's Wrong With Unity? 
Other than a constant stream of amateur "games" dragging Unity's name through the mud by being poorly optimized.

Or having a terrible outdated garbage collector.

Or very little out of the box support for first person shooters.

Or requiring DIY decals.

Or requiring DIY sprites (other than particle effects).

Or having memory leak problems.

Or having terrible support for mods. 
Amid Evil Bullshit DMSP Arena Mode Confirmed.

Looks appallingly bland in every way imaginable. The only thing I can tolerate in this video is the outside lighting which is nice with the fog. The full red screen when you take any damage is a particularly bad touch in addition to the semi-naff weapons, stupid cartoon items, boring badly-themed monsters, apparent lack of any AI, shitty map, shitty textures and lighting etc etc. 
I like how the pickup items are low-framerate pixelly sprites, and then the weapon models look like they could be in Skyrim.

"Well you see what we were going for was to simulate one of those classic FPS games with a long and drama-filled development history, where some bits were made in 1995 and other bits were made in 2005" 
Lol Chill 
AMID EVIL is gorgeous, feels incredibly smooth to play, and provides a better challenge than other recent "old-school" shooters on it's "Evil" difficulty.

Videos don't do AMID EVIL justice. It's a whacked out mix of sprites, unfiltered textures, and shiny UE4 gloss. In motion, it works. It's a crisp and colorful thing. Limited video bitrate muddies that.

I completely understand why one would argue that the AEsthetic is confused, so don't bother. Just TRUST ME.

Release will see 7 episodes, each with 3 exploration levels and a boss level. Every episode has it's own theme and enemies. 3 episodes and an endless map will be available next week.

I don't like Serious Sam-style shooters or wave-based endless modes. This isn't that. AE's levels are big and beautiful. The wave mode in the video is an extra to the main campaign. For what it's worth, I found AMID EVIL's wave mode to be more fun than others I've played. The gameplay in that video is also pretty bad...

We'll always have DOOM and Quake, and the well of quality mapsets isn't drying up anytime soon. But DANG guys, you can't be salty about every new kid on the block. There is a difference between having sophisticated taste and being a self-defeating elitist sperglord.

FPS fans who lump the likes of DUSK, AMID EVIL (and what the heck, DOOM 2016 too) in with the likes of STRAFE, Apocryph, or Hellbound have my pity. (If you're excited for Apocryph or Hellbound... um, lol?) You may have a deeper understanding of good FPS design than the average Joe, but your judgement lacks a necessary granularity.

Also, Kinn, the weapon "models" are sprites babe. ;) 
I hadn't realized that Amid Weevil is published by the same people as Dusk. It's like two schlubby doses of marketing for the price of one. 
Videos don't do AMID EVIL justice. It's a whacked out mix of sprites, unfiltered textures, and shiny UE4 gloss. 
Would consider doing a legit Heretic episode, followed by a legit Hexen episode, followed by a legit Hexen 2 ... actually scratch that last one 
Amid Evil 
Ach Me Eyes! It Burns! 
#193 Thank You For Your Insights. 
Videos don't do AMID EVIL justice. It's a whacked out mix of sprites, unfiltered textures, and shiny UE4 gloss.

No offense to your judgement, but the very reasons you have given for it looking "gorgeous", are mostly the same reasons - with the addition of the ass-awful saturated lighting - that it still looks like shit on a stick, where the stick is also made of shit.

Incidentally I just rewatched Apocryph inspired by your post and whilst it does look fairly dung - I am assuming it is a mere engine test, the lighting, textures, monsters, and theme harmony already look 2000% better than Amid Evil.

I will concede that Amid Evil does look functionally fine as an old skool shooter (apart from the appalling screenflash on damage which should never even be an option let alone default), but the lack of any graphical harmony is a NOPE from me. 
Art Consistency 
Is amid evils biggest problem tbh. But this can be fixed a lot easier than gameplay (which looks ok imo) 
Art Consistency 
Is amid evils biggest problem tbh. But this can be fixed a lot easier than gameplay (which looks ok imo) 
Double Posting 
Is FifthHeffalump#s biggest problem tbh. But he's beyond fixing (imo) 
No offense to your judgement, but the very reasons you have given for it looking "gorgeous", are mostly the same reasons - with the addition of the ass-awful saturated lighting - that it still looks like shit on a stick, where the stick is also made of shit.

You left out the part where I said "In motion, it works. It's a crisp and colorful thing. Limited video bitrate muddies that." That's the important bit. The idea being - it sounds unlikely, but when playing, these seemingly disparate parts come together nicely.

AMID EVIL is purposefully chaotic in it's use of color, and it works. It won't be everyone's jam. I love it. It's something else. It's ugly in the best way.

I will concede that Amid Evil does look functionally fine as an old skool shooter (apart from the appalling screenflash on damage which should never even be an option let alone default), but the lack of any graphical harmony is a NOPE from me.

The flashing is less obnoxious when playing versus watching. But I agree, it should be optional.

Ye boi. When I first saw that in-game, I thought something was rendering incorrectly. Turns out it's just an inelegant and ugly way to occlude enemy spawns.

Incidentally I just rewatched Apocryph inspired by your post and whilst it does look fairly dung - I am assuming it is a mere engine test, the lighting, textures, monsters, and theme harmony already look 2000% better than Amid Evil.

Yeah all the parts harmoniously appear hideous all at once! :p

Seriously, it looks like an asset flip. I'm not saying it is, but it has that vibe - cheap and uninspired. Apocryph is trying so hard (and failing) to be dark and gritty with zero sense of irony. Of course maybe that's what you appreciate about it. There is a certain kind of honesty about how thoroughly uncool it is. Heck, it may even wind up a charming little piece of EuroJank. 
One More Thing... 
Let it be known...

I find Darkplaces and HD texture packs disgusting. Now THAT is inconsistency! 
Too Many Anon Posts To Keep Track Of, Who Is Who?? 
Seriously, takes 2 secs to type in a name and chrome remembers it for next time. 
TBH, If They're As Well Thought Out As #204...'s okay. It's still a bit annoying not knowing posting consistency etc, but, whatever, a thread contribution is a thread contribution.

Snide comments via anons, trolling or otherwise, are deleted. That IS something where posting consistency / history is required for context. 
Also, Kinn, the weapon "models" are sprites

and then you made them look indistinguishable from normal/diffuse/specular-mapped models from the mid-late 2000s... 
Seriously though, you can tell when playing the game. Videos fuzzy the effect.

For more hot normal-on-sprite action, I recommend BRIGADOR.

I can't defend AMID EVIL's visuals anymore. I've already admitted that it's UGLY IN THE BEST WAY. I mean, I DO have eyes guys. :p It's gaudy and garish and not for everyone.


ION Maiden is really coming along. A testing branch already has mouse movement feeling smooth and modern. Performance is better and the vsync issues are being investigated.

For anyone experiencing stutters at 144 fps, cap your frames at 120. The game loop updates at 30hz and interpolates at 120hz. If you don't have Gsync, you'll need to change your monitor's refresh rate to 120.

The update should be out soon. 
Amid Evil looks more interesting than Dusk for me. And Ion Maiden is fucking great.

Amid Evil's oversaturated effects seems to be a homage to the style of some old games, specially N64/Saturn/PS1 ones. Even if the game lacks visual harmony, at least it looks like the devs are putting effort into the art.

Being an independent developer sucks, specially if the team is just a couple of guys. Either the gameplay, the level design, the sound fx, the voice acting, the music, the models, the sprites, the textures, the animations, the visual effects, or something else will suck. Most likely, several of these aspects at once. But if the developer is openly honest about his limitations, some flaws can be forgiven.

What bothers me the most in many pseudo retro games are misleading advertisement, developers who doesn't tolerate criticism, and developers who uses "stylistic choices" as an excuse to lazy out on some aspects of the game. A lazy style is still lazy, despite being a style. 
Deliberately gaudy and garish, as much as I want to keep slagging it off, at this point I can just say "fair enough". If it's a deliberate choice then although I think the effect is ass (and not the sort of ass that appeals to me), then I can see what they are getting at. I guess I find it a bit of a pity personally because the level design and gameplay functionality does actually have some appeal, unlike many other of these games, and with different GFX style could be a winner. Oh well. 
And On The Subject Of Anons. 
If I see another post by FoldingChable, then I'll remember "oh that was the dude that was talking some sense about AE even if I disagreed". That context is useful. 
Nah dude its great having lengthy discussions of opinions with multiple anons and having to use random ass context clues to determine which anon is which so as not to confuse "anon thats a total fucking bellend" with "anon thats actually kind of reasonable" 
ion maiden seems great. played the demo and it looks better than I expected. I hope they will be able to finish the game

Also be aware that the game is going to run like shit on older computers 
It's curious to see Ion Maiden being labeled as a "spiritual sequel to Duke Nukem 3D". The art style is substantially different, in that while DN3D used prerendered CGI assets (All characters, cutscenes, title & intermission screens, etc), IM uses hand-drawn art.

IM's art managed to be of such high quality, that people don't notice how fundamentally different from the DN3D style it is. Ion Maiden is not simply rehashing old approaches. 
Copy Paste Of A Post On Another Forum Re: Amid Evil 
So now that the Early Access version is out, I can talk a bit about Amid Evil. I played a test branch of the Early Access version a week or so ago. I've always been critical of the visual style of the game (didn't really like the color usage that much) and thought the game looked garish and not that great. I got a key because of a semi-rant on Twitter about it, and promptly booted the game to see for myself.
Honestly, the videos really don't do the game justice because a whole lot of detail is lost to video compression. The game looks pretty good in motion, especially the third episode that reminded me of the first Tomb Raider a lot. My only problem with color is found in early Episode 1, the rest of the game looks good for the most part, with some great style at times (E1M2 comes to mind, this map is a real beast and one I wish I had made cause it's brilliant at times). The weapon viewmodels are apparently lightmapped sprites, which is pretty amazing considering how good they look.

The level design ranges from good to very good. There was not a single bad level in the version I played. E1M1 is very tame/simple but things get serious as soon as E1M2, which is very open and has vertical layers serpenting around. The game uses very little enclosed, Painkiller-like arenas which is very welcome. The third Episode has a lot of exploration gameplay too which I liked a lot (especially in E3M1). The Episodes only have three main levels and one boss each, but there are 7 Episodes planned total, each with its own style.

The game itself is a lot of fun. All the weapons are great to use and pack a punch. Even the base axe feels very powerful. My favorite weapons are the trident thing and the Mace of Torment which I find extremely fun. The weapons have an alternative, even more powerful attack once you gain enough souls from fallen enemies. It acts exactly as the Tome of Power from Heretic/Hexen, but I find it more interesting in Amid Evil since you actually have to fight to trigger it a vast majority of the time (and you can chain it with greater soul pickups). In the version I played the enemies didn't bleed much and had almost no pain frames; I wonder if that was changed because it was a bit distracting and it was hard to tell whether I was actually hurting them at times.

Overall, Amid Evil is a cool game. It doesn't try to reinvent the wheel but it's a solid Heretic-like in some aspects. It runs well, has cool level design, great weaponry and feels good to play. 
Yeah, YouTube compression can completely ruin some visual styles, and is way too influential on the public impression. 
Skacky = Shill 100% Confirmed. 
j/k etc etc etc. Good post. 
It looks like Hellscreen won't be funded. Less than 3 days left, and not even 20% funding achieved.

Despite the campaign mentioning classic FPS level design, the lack of any actual classic FPS level design in the videos gives an impression that despite wanting to do it, the developer doesn't know how to do it.

It's a shame, as the visual style and the artwork are fantastic, and the music is great. 
Shitty review. If people are going to criticize devs for not following earlier designs, they should also bash the devs of the original Doom for trashing Tom Hall's design of it. 
Let's bash quake because it doesn't have an axe-ogre who pisses on dead bodies =D 
...that is one of the few genuine flaws with Quake. 
Steam Direct Was A Mistake 
Born To Be Wild Ripoff 
Hellbound Arena Pre-Pre-Pre-Alpha Test. 
Got generously donated a spare key for this. It is what you see in the video previously posted. One extremely simple arena with waves of enemies.

Even given those limits it is fairly flawed: disco lighting, terrible music, fairly homogenous humanoid enemies (apart from some ugly demons), a bit heavy on the hitscan enemies, and jumping feels a bit weird and abrupt. Basically feels like a Q3A mod test.

On the other hand, at it's core, it does do some crucial things right: Movement is pleasingly slick and precise, weapons feel good and meaty and distinct, and the graphical quality, if not it's execution, is totally good.

I'd say it's tentatively worth keeping an eye on, if they add a full game and better bestiary to this, and a stronger, deeper theme, it could well work. 
Apparently Midair (Tribes-style shooter) is going free today, anyone have experience with it? Not exactly a Quake/arena shooter style game but Starseige: Tribes dates to '98 so it sort of counts? Maybe? 
I have a key for it so I'll dip into it at some point. 
Update on Midair: tried it today, feels really damn clunky menu-wise, also seems to enjoy randomly reverting, deleting or re-locking loadout and inventory options (without refunding the in-game points needed to unlock them). Movement is really damn stiff especially if the last Tribes you played was Ascend- apparently this is a good thing, so sez the Old Timey Tribals, but I'm not a huge fan of the thrust vectoring jetpack system and the lack of natural air control at all feels gross. Uninstalled after it locked out shit I'd just unlocked without giving me the ingame credits back for it. 
no Romero´s Blackroom in-game footage yet? next Daikatana? 
The Most Gaseous Of Vapourware. 
Haha, the part where the dev talks about other good retro/indie titles and shows footage of Strafe, Dusk, etc. 
The "Level Design" section of their description is the best. 
He made a 2D version of Doom? When Doom already is 2D... 
Watched the Hellbound kickstarter video now.
Seriously, if a developer has a thick foreign accent, he shouldn't try to talk in a video explaining the game. Not without subtitles.

The weakest point of the Hellbound kickstarter is the same of the Hellscreen kickstarter: No classic level design at all. The Hellscreen kickstarter at least claimed to want to have classic level design (without any proof of concept), but the Hellbound kickstarter doesn't even acknowledge anything about level design; only about environment art. And none of the team members is a level designer.

Which is a bit of a shame, as the art and the music are great. 
Art looks great if only they created an actual level for it rather than a shitty survival chunk of dirt surrounded by a lava map. 
i guess its the only guy in the team that can speak in English well enough for that. And that is no accent, is what happens when you aren't accustomed to speak in English. I heard people saying that its like a vampire talking, but never understood it neither never heard that vampires talked in a different way.

It loks like they don't intend to make levels and only if they are very successful with the campaign, so this will be like Devil Daggers with more money on the graphics and Serious Sam style instead of a creepy one. 
And that is no accent, is what happens when you aren't accustomed to speak in English.

I'm not a native English speaker either, and I never actually talk in English. What happens when I try are tons of mistakes, a very limited vocabulary and an extremely irregular rhythm with some words taking very long to come out. It's like I suddenly become mentally disabled.

The main challenges for people who writes in English but don't talk in English are to remember every word, every sound that they make and every vocal muscle movement (chords, lips, tongue, etc.) needed to speak those words. And to remember all of it in realtime.

The guy in the video doesn't have trouble with that. But it's very difficult for me to understand all he says. 
Played the demo of Ion Maiden. Like any other recent Doom/Build mod with tons of graphical effects etc. it's not gonna run "efficiently", but aside from that it is extremely legit stuff. 
Apocryph Gameplay 
Even skipping through that was painful. 
Apocryph Video 
Find funny how the guy gets all fired up so much, even when nothing happens.

The layout is the same simplistic thing as the one i played some months ago and doesn't look like there is big changes, save for the motion blur that prevented from strafing that looks like is fortunately out now.

If the motion blur is definitely out this could be good if they got a level designer. 
Damn That's Terrible 
The level designers definitely didn't do a block-out first. 

seems more doom-like than quake-like but i saw a little bit of 3d/jumping in there. 
Not sure what the design goal of the game is... basically looks like Doom 3 with the resolution of Doom 1. 
I don't like the hud overlay but the pixel rendering of 3d objects adds a bit of a gritty feel to me. I like it. 
Typical Bullshit. 
" It reaches the quality you expect from a AAA experience while adhering to some of the aesthetic technical limits of older hardware."

Funnily enough you useless mis-guided cocksuckers, "aesthetic technical limits" were in no way what made old skool games great, they were a necessary evil to put up because they were just fucking limits. 
That's Debatable 
One could argue that the limits imposed by old tech forced developers to focus on other things than visuals, and also allowed for faster production cycles.
Example in our context, the time it takes to make a Quake map, vs the time it takes to make a level in some modern game. 
An incidental silver lining benefit, not a fundamental positive to having lower quality graphics. 
Li'l Bit Of This, Li'l Bit Of That 
(^ "bit" in the title is also said Cockney glottal-stop style)

It's actually very complicated with lots of variables jostling with each other. E.g. crunchy software quake at low resolution looks amazing and immersive and strangely rich with detail for some reason, but those exact same environments in smooth GL on a modern monitor look like bland, barren shite. You're no longer squinting at it and your mind doesn't have to fill in the details, and the magic is gone.

Other things: tools were primitive which probably hampered asset creation times substantially compared to what we can do now with all our spanky new Trenchcoats and Mayos and whatnot. 
I Disagree 
Many games, even some modern ones with big budgets, choose a specific quality of visuals with this in mind.
Biggest example recently that comes to mind is the latest Zelda game, where they tried to go more realistic but realized how much extra work it meant to look right, so decided for a simpler more stylized look.

To me one of the big reasons I love Quake is it's low-fidelity, and what that means for gameplay and extra content creation. 
For Clarity 
Previous post was in reply to Shambler not Kinn. 
But yeah, many of the things we love about 90s FPS level design - multiroute, exploration, secrets, optional bits etc - exist because you could afford to make them back then. With the cost of real estate in modern FPS, the optional bits are the first to get binned when production reality kicks in.

Things seem to be improving again, I think we're over the worst of the "linear" era and developers are making more of an effort in this regard, but certainly post 90s there was a long stagnation period when all FPS releases were little more than on-rails games. 
Just Watched The Trailer 
Yeah, WTF.

So they've made an FPS that looks like it came from the mid-2000s, then stuck it in a screen resolution that comes from the mid 1990s.

I've seen enough of these sorts of indie developers to think that maybe we should just gather them all up, dump them on some remote, isolated tropical island somewhere, and just let them make all these incongruous eyesore games amongst themselves, well away from the rest of us, and then meanwhile in the world of normal people with actual taste, we can all eventually, in time, just pretend that these awful things don't exist. 
And There We Go. 
Thread conclusively answered. 
I thought the main reason that old maps had so many different routes was because they also had to function as deathmatch maps. 
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