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Q1SP: Shamsp1 "Crown Of Thorns"
First map, first time trying an editor, 20 years overdue.

Canyons and blue castle and spikes. Fairly mundane 2D layout but should feature a distinctive style and some fun gameplay encounters - best played methodically rather than gung-ho. Skill settings included. Fish counter bug also included.

(Skybox included, goes in id1\gfx\env)


Walkthrough and explanation (spoilers):
I made a fatal mistake on my first run, so you have two demos from me. I like the clean "anti-quake" aesthetic for a change. You'll see that some monsters got stuck in some places, like the corner stairs in the blue area, the starting rocky area, etc. I I'm also unsure if sneaking up on the knights by climbing out of the water the way I did is what you had in mind. Good first map! 
Although your previous map was better! 
20 years wait was worth it :)
go map next one! 
Here is my blind playthrough =D

For a map with small/medium size, this level packs A LOT of enemies (145 in hard mode, not 155 as the readme says, i think if you are not using the fish-correct-counter-patch the counter says 155), which brings some pretty good fights and dangerous ambushes =D

SPOILERS: I found 4 of 5 secrets, then i quickloaded and nocliped a little and was able to find the last one. I also found 2 spawns hinding in a secret area that i already had visited and 3 zombies just standing below the map (i don't know what they're doing there) :P

Thank you for the ride :) 
Cheers will check the demo. Errrr, those Zombies might be b0rked. Yeah I didn't use the fish counter sorry. 
Skill 3 Demo 
Thanks a lot for the demos. Fun to watch. There is a distinct correlation between people who bunnyhop a lot and people who end up getting into trouble on this map (Bal and you). There's also correlations between playing drunk and getting into trouble (Bal and Vondur), and playing in a gung-ho style and getting into trouble (Bal and most other people).

Sneaking up on the knights in the open canyon bit is deliberate. The idea is that the player plays methodically and explores cautiously and cleans out the areas one by one. So the cave is a bit hectic, the water has some action but nothing to wild, then that section gives the player some respite before the GK ambush. 
Another good fun demo. I don't know if my favourite bit was shooting the spawn at point blank range right next to an escape ledge, turning around to admire the quadruple vore-ball chasing you, or methodically avoiding picking up any 20 shell packs when you had 73 shells. Great stuff. There is a reason for those spawns, yes.

A lot of enemies yes, I tried to have no wasted space in the map (but usually space to move around), and use each area in different ways if they're revisited. 
Some Bumbling Skill 2 Demos
Fun stuff. You may want to fast forward some parts. 
A Bler-map ? 
O-M-G !!! 
First of all, congrats on the first map release, you've certainly been around long enough for me to wonder why it hadn't come out long before I showed up! Demo:

This was actually my second attempt. Ironically I played better on my first try (I was squished by a lift--actually the same one I had trouble activating in the demo cause the button is too dark)--I handled the voreballs a lot better, and actually managed to shake one from the vore near the red armor by diving into the water and getting it to hit a submerged zombie. Anyway, getting vores to do my work for me is always good, and using them to gib zombies is even better, so I liked this one. 
Cool map. I like old school design layout, with new school skybox style. Nice mountain ranges too. Tight on ammos near the end so used my axe to choppy choppy.

Here's my sham of a demo: 
I Apologise For The Lift. 
I struggled with it. It needed to be fast for obvious reasons, but then to not kill the player. I deliberately put a pause in to give the player time, and made sure the buttons went into the wall so there would be minimum snags. And set the lift damage to 0, which Quake conveniently ignores. 
Plats always have a blocked damage of 1 unless in a mod of course. 
It's A Door Not A Plat. 
And "0" on a field is effectively "ignore this field". 
Is all I have to say on that. It's a bit illogical for a numerical value field like that not to accept 0. Having said that, ignoring the damage field could do no damage to the player. #whatever 
I enjoyed this. The scale and the pace+variety of the situations made it a great bite-sized playthrough... and that along with the level of detail also gave it a nostalgic feel. (That's not some sort of passive-aggressive comment about aesthetics, I think it handled the low-detail look nicely, with some appropriate texture choices.)

One random negative comment: there was at least one secret which seemed to be a HA HA FUCK YOU moment (I think red armor + vores). Maybe I mishandled something there. Anyway I rarely like it when a bonafide secret-marked secret area is a net resource sink for the player.

One random positive comment: I liked the way you used the beginning of the map in a way that forced the player to figure out something that is not too difficult but sort of unusual. If this was later in the map with more options and open routes then it would not work as well (would either be overlooked, or be super frustrating if necessary to advance). 
Nice to see "real" Shambler has made a map! I have not yet had time to try it. 
go map etc 
GG Whoever Created It This Time 
It's sufficiently well-made for a first map style map. Way too hordey and crammed with monsters for my taste, though. Quite a few monsters aren't used to their potential, placed in or teleported to location where their attacks can't reach the player. Shame about the long line of sight from start to exit - could've used the protuding rock bit in front of the river as vis blocker.
Now, then. Start the next sketch from 20 years ago...

Blocky, primitively conceived 
Johnny: Cheers. Yes I struggled with detailing a bit as I hadn't really planned for that - however the focus on the map was on the blue aesthetic and the combination of castle and canyons The RA + Vore secret I'm happy with, most people get away with it with ~150 RA left, if you don't panic and jump off to the castle ledge then you get it free. I agree resource sinks are a matter of taste, sometimes I don't mind them as a player because the fun is in finding the secret. Glad you liked the start, I was happy with that.

Negke: "Hordes" are deliberate and are almost always easy monsters, I wanted a bit of visceral but not too stressful action, and also wanted all areas to be well used (often twice). Some monsters not used to their potential are also deliberate - the fiends at the start are to just panic the player, not to be dangerous. Same with the underwater zombies, they're more for fun (although often seem to be a good way to use of the ROS!).

Tronyn: Yes, that too. 
Congratulations on the release, Shambler. 
My Demo 
Nice little map. I liked the spiky theme going on and the end teleport emerging was cool too. The brushwork on the nature was quite nice.

I think my favourite room was the basement with the underlying machinery and the vore/zombie arena (even if I died there once). As stated earlier, having vores kill off zombies is always a treat. I also liked the crucifixion surfaces the zombies were against.

Some of the secrets almost made my life harder than not picking them up, as discussed earlier here. Although it was a bit annoying, especially the vore/RA secret, it was still more fun than annoying.

The first puzzle took me an embarrassing amount of time to figure out, and my first demo is entirely about trying to figure it out, so consider skipping the first demo. -_-

I think I agree with negke that the level felt a little bit too packed with monsters and thus cramped.

Congratulations on the release. To sum things up, I'm glad to have played it. If I'd rate this in Quaddicted, I'd rate it maybe a 4/5.

Demos here (VkQuake, skill 3, 12:27, 140/155 kills, 3/5 secrets, one death) 
Ww & Lpowell, cheers for the demos, fun to watch. I tried to signpost the grenade launcher in a few ways: having something at the start of the water to encourage players to explore both ends, having the bars and teleporter to draw attention that way, having the GL fairly well lit, and supplying a few shells en route to let players know there is a GL around.

Same with the start of the map too - although yes I should have clipped those rocks off and put a "look around" message on the bars. However the start is a very small area (two box rooms) and once players try to axe the bars, there's only 3 distractions: axing the brick wall, shooting the door lights, and trying to get through the starting hole. After spending 10 seconds doing that lot to no avail, I hoped people would start looking around. The cave entrance is signed with the texture, ground texture sticking out, a faint green light, and a wind sound.

The lift button, I think that was okay visibility-wise, the player has pressed 3 cog buttons by then so hopefully would be looking for cog buttons, the lift has gone down with a bang ("Lift fully operational" is hint that yes that falling platform was a lift), and there is a strong light from above on that area.

Esrael, glad you liked the crucifixion surface on the zombies, that was a bit of last minute detailing to the bland underground bit and I was pleased with the weird techno-gothic hint. The Vore/RA secret can be easy if you drop off and exit into the cave or jump to the castle ledge - BUT will be harder on Nightmare, I didn't test on NM but I'm pretty happy that several monster choices will make it harder than Hard. 
Shells = Grenades. 
Great first demo. Interesting to see someone playing it mostly methodically and cautiously as recommended. I particularly like the GK ambush where you retreat into the Vore as everyone does, keep retreating into more monsters, then think quickly and retreat to the side of the castle which you already cleared out. Also using the ROS to actually explore a bit rather than sitting there shooting zombies that are at the bottom of a moat and can't get out. Good stuff :) 
Fun demo, nice to see someone playing on Skill 1 and it working well. Some neat mini-derps too :). Yes the Shambler on the bridge facing away is deliberate - just ask Poorchop who backed enthusiastically straight out of the final arena. 
A Blast! 
Cheers Will Check That. 
Also I did a video walkthrough, partly to explain my gameplay ideas (lots) but also for non-Quaking friends and family, and for plain self-indulgence:

I might make further maps, depending on time and opportunity, but I won't be aiming for anything radical and spectacular. Smaller and effective would be ideal. We shall see. 
Someone Get Some More IBS On His Ass! 
You Definitely Should! 
This was a decent map, and a very good first map. You probably put more thought into it than most first time mappers do.

Would be a big shame to not see another Shambler map, since this one turned out so well! 
Best QooC from the video: "there's balls chasing me" 
Usually a welcome scenario for me IRL, less so in Quake ;) 
An exceptional map for your first release, certainly shows potential!

First run demo, hard skill: 
Shambler Finally Made A Map!? 
I've gotta see this! 
Omg It's Damaul! 
Where's Damaul9!? (or was it 8? or 10? can't remember). 
Nice Little Map, Shambs! 
When you say 20 years overdue, do you mean you started it 20 years ago but only finished it recently, or you simply didn't bother trying your hand at mapping until now?

Anyway, methodically is my usual playing style, so this is right up my alley. Still, it's quite action-packed for its size. A bit cramped in places but nothing too off-putting. I for one liked the vore ambush at the RA. Best bit was the zombie/vore pit, fun stuff! Not fun stuff was the protruding button that squished me on my way back up the lift. The shambler fight at the end could've been designed better: I'm no fan of closed arena combat but here, leaving the door open just made it too easy to snipe them from behind the door-frame. And there was a bit too many spawns for my taste - I hate these fuckers!

The start puzzle, well... puzzled me ;) I failed to notice the hidden door to the cave but inadvertently found an exploit allowing me to climb over the rocks and drop down on the GK. Therefore, I unknowingly played a good chunk of the map backwards and only found the hidden door once I had cleared the cave. Weird thing is that I couldn't pass through it from either side once opened...

Played on skill 2 as always. Missed a few monsters and 2 secrets because the exit wasn't marked as such. No demo, sorry. I did record one but something went wrong and it was corrupted. 
Cheers Muggers. 
I had the idea and sketched the plan out 20 years ago. The closest I came to an editor before was un-ticking the "Install UnrealEd" box on a UT install.

The lift button is a problem, I know. I should have tried harder to fix that.

The ending arena, I didn't want it to be too arena-y. Watching people play I think it was a decent challenge. Watching Poorchop back hastily out of the final arena into the bridge Shambler was the highlight of my day (Shambler facing away as he isn't supposed to be part of the fight, just a penalty for escaping too easily).

The starting puzzle puzzled more people than intended. I should have clipped the rocks, put a better message on the bars, and lightened the cave entrance further. Not sure why it wasn't passable unless you didn't shoot all three blocks? 
3 Blocks? 
Umm, must've been that... *facepalm* I have to admit this triangular opening seemed odd. 
its pretty good for a first map man

as usual I played on nightmare

theme wise, it felt like a hybrid between lovecraftian and medieval... I would have loved to have seen the outdoors area look a little less green and a little more... dire?

The building was very well constructed, the rockwork was maybe a bit tight, especially where the dogs were in the cave. Actually the rockwork I thought needed a little more TLC in general. I thought it was a strange choice to use the "don't link" flags on the doors on the entrance to the cave, in my minds eye they should open all together.

There were certain areas that really needed some triggers to alert the monsters, in particular was the start of the cave where the ogres are... that would be perfect for them to start shooting at you from the get-go.

Combat throughout the map was pretty solid, challenging at times, never really feeling unfair. The exit plinth thing was pretty cool, its animations were nice, and the way you access it too. 
Cheers Snaut Glad You Enjoyed It. 
Interesting point about the outdoor area. I guess I was trying to keep it fairly normal?

The rockwork ideally needed to not exist in the first place. Starting out mapping with a shitload of terrain was a stupid idea :)

The separate rocks at the cave entrance were deliberate, I wanted it vaguely like the player was breaking his way in.

The ogres again were deliberate, I wanted them to be hiding there with the SSG distracting the players attention and drawing them around the corner.

The exit plinth thing was just a random collection of brushes I dumped inside the courtyard to try to give me some inspiration, and then thought looked cool. Every demo I've see the player has watched it all the way, so I'm really pleased with that. 
Fuck Me Sideways! 
OK, so I made a 2nd playthrough to record a nice lil' demo for you... or so I thought! Does demo recording not work with quicksaves? All I have is this partial demo going through about 1/3 of the map, my full playthrough demos don't work. You're not missing much anyway, I played like an ass... 
Congratulations Shambler! 
Very happy that you've entered the editor realms. Well overdue, I've wondered before what sort of map you'd make if you tried your hand at it. Looks nice from the screenshots, look forward to giving it a play later! 
Congrats On The 1st Map 
Hopefully it is the first of many... Have a demo - 
Starbuck And Fifth 
Thank you dudes.

"what sort of map I'd make", well, focusing on personal inspiration / ideas, but also trying to keep it manageable and reasonable to actually make and get out. Avoiding the "OMG I can't make Sepulchre as my first map, I'm quitting" fallacy is something I'm keen to do and promote :). I respect amazing maps but I think there's always room for "pretty good" ones.

5th I will check the demo a bit later. And yours Mugglz. 
Oh I'm Rusty 
Haven't played Quake for several months. This map was great for some relaxing fun. Thanks for leaving the shortcuts in. 
Nice map shamby :p messy start but had luck... found quad secret fast and saved me!!!

BTW i didn't find that secret wall at start... i got if from other side LOL

But we can climb those rocks near door :p 
First Map 
A solid 1st map. Combat was tough on hard skill but i somehow survived. Clever layout with lots to discover and variety even though it was very blocky overall. I liked the first half of it the most. Spaces..outdoor Areas.. Yes I'm In 
I like this kind of settings, even if rough on the edges as someone told :) 
A Philosophic Grumbling.. 
Hey listen(and possibly help)!
I'm a mapper too though did not released any yet because I have a moral dilemma:
I enjoy videogames so much (Quake in primis!) but I've noticed that the more I learn mapping, the less I enjoy playing myself (!)
That's because the mistery,the surprise, the curiosity you had in the past approaching a new Quake map gradually vanishes if you know the tricks yourself..
Like a movie director probably loses interest in other people movies..
So maybe the world won't see any of my (silly?)creations ;)
What do you think ? 
I'm a mapper too though did not released any yet because I have a moral dilemma

In Texas they have an expression for that: All hat no cattle. 
Well I Never... 
Heard it through the grapevine...
Didn't believe it...
But it's true, it's true, it's really true!

Played a bit, just for old time's sake. When I saw your YT playthrough, that's when I realised that I wasn't supposed to climb up the rocks to get to the gold key... doh!

I just didn't see the texture change on the rock face so did some lateral thinking, and vertical climbing - you can climb in two places.

Anyway, well done. 
Cheers Trinca Olive Komagama And Mike 
All appreciated.

I really wish I'd blocked off the bloody rocks.

What is it with Quake players having decades and thousands of maps of having to hunt secret doors and squinty walls and different textures as a matter of habit, and almost never being clearly encouraged to slope-slide as part of progression, and suddenly doing it now?? You're all contrary bastards :P 
Not sure how much you changed the map after I play tested but I never told you that the initial message to the player about exploring didn't fire for me the first time I launched it.

That might be part of the problem with ppl finding the door. Who knows and maybe you fixed it? 
We sort of had this discussion but maybe part of the problem was you mapping for a lower gamma value. On my first play through, I did not notice the secret door at all. Even with the different texture, there just wasn't enough contrast for it to really jump out at me. Granted that the hole in the wall also pointed to some armor and other goodies, it made sense for me to try and get into that area first somehow.

I'm hugely in favor of dumptruck's suggestion of mapping for gamma 1 (and contrast 1 for that matter). Then again, now that I look the map over, it's hard to believe that I missed the secret door at all because it seems to obvious. 
Aye I sort of remember that discussion. The gamma I play on is gamma that makes all Id maps and 95% of custom maps look spot on it - if I mapped for gamma 1 and had my monitor cranked waaaaay up (so the rest of everything I ever did on it was ridiculously bright and bleached out), the end result would be exactly the same. Even so, I should have made those rocks brighter.

Armour and goodies, again there is a fairly common trend of items being visible that aren't available until quite a while later? 
I've Always Liked Slope-<s>grinding</s>sliding... 
Always enjoyed exploring a map in its every nook and cranny, to the point of finding many exploits.

I did not notice the secret door at all. Even with the different texture, there just wasn't enough contrast for it to really jump out at me.
I had like no problem sorting the rocks out. I'm pretty flabbergasted that others did honestly. 
Memories Of Late '90's 
Haven't played Quake in a while but I couldn't pass up a Shambler map.

Played on Hard and killed all but three enemies (maybe failed spawn in since there's nowhere left to hide.) I found all 5 secrets without cheats or hints or reading this thread first - 4 were easy enough, the 5th was a challenge but fair.

I made it harder on myself by attempting to kill on the cheap by stirring as much infighting as I could; especially around the river. Died a lot but that's what I get for waking everyone up while bunnying and swimming around the mayhem. No shortage of ammo. Very retro lighting, texture and geometry - nice snack size map. Oh yeah, I did get a bit stumped at the beginning but it's not like you can't go a bit ax crazy and discover the path.

Nice work. 
Cool Stuff Glad You Had Fun :) 
Well... good to see Jack is still lurking. Well done Shambler! 
BTW Scraggy 
What do you mean by retro lighting, and what would be better / more modern??

I'm aware it's a bit dark but OTOH I did focus on getting several things hopefully right, e.g. correctly positioned sunlight, proper light sources, some fill lights but not too many, subtle coloured lighting, etc. Keen to know what I missed (apart from still using minlight, if that's retro then I'll stick with retro!). 
Well, I Had Fun! 
Except the cheap spawn in the dark that I heard but didn't see until he'd already knocked half my health off. Good job the little shit fell in the moat.

I only played on skill 1, because I'm pretty out of practice, but I managed to clear the map without too much trouble, although there was a moment where things felt a bit hairy after the aforementioned spawn appeared.

I didn't like that I couldn't shoot the vore through the grating, although it would have messed up the SK area combat I guess. That was pretty fun actually. I love fighting vores.

I made a demo, just because it's you, Shambler.

Really good first map attempt overall, and I hope shamsp2 is in the works :D 
Cheers Than :) 
come back!
favourite mapper ever, I think. 
First Map 
shambler, playing through your first map and really enjoy it. I just saw that there is your second map available here too. Will sure grab it afterwards. Lets hope for number 3 :D 
Number 3 Is In The SM186 Pack :) 
Thanks for your comments. 
Cool Map 
I like the map. The final fight was a bit husrh, but otherwise the map was really cool and fun.

First run demo, skill 1: 
Great first effort, Shambs. Late to the party, as per my custom, but I'm catching up.
While looking for the way to exit the first area (btw, the 3 sides rock door sucks big time) I accidentally broke the map, and I figured you'd find more interesting seeing how I did that than how I died in my first run through the intended route. So there goes:

Speed Demo

happy you finally came around to producing maps. 
Cheers Silent! 
Yeah I admit the rock entrance should have been made clearer. I completely underestimated the typical Quake player's determination to ignore persistently ignore an obvious "secret" entrance, marked in 3 different ways, in a small area with no other options, and instead contrive to steep slope climb which never appeared in any Id map nor any custom map as far as I know.... But I learnt my lesson, and also the wise words of negke: "The players are the worst thing about mapping" ;).

If you fancy a catch up.... some may have proper running potential... 
Well, They May Have Running Potential... 
...but I don't.

I've already done some catching up and I gotta say you've got some real mapping skills, mate. Gonna write something thread by thread. Maybe post a coupla demos, too.

As for the secret entrance, it's not that it wasn't obvious enough, but I personally did not like organic stuff as rocks moving like automated doors... I'd have preferred like a func_illusionary or sumthin'... 
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