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Quake 2018: How Baker's Penis Felll Off
Quake began its life as the remarkable game that could do multiplayer. You could make a map:

1) It could single player
2) It could co-operative
3) It could deathmatch.

No game had such a feature! Quake became like DYNAMITE.

Enter The Age Of The No Penis Mapper

In 2018, most mappers are unaware of this heritage. Their penises fell off, unused and removed by evolution. "Use it or lose it" they say.

They have better tools than their forebearers, but less knowledge so are far less capable because knowledge is power.

CZG maps? They coop. Necros maps? They coop. Tronyn maps. They coop. Old maps: you guessed it -- from ancient oldies like A2D2 to Flecksp1 -- they all coop.

So yeah, your small fry penis --- it's just you and your inferior capabilities.

Your ancestors with lesser tools could do what you cannot. -- Deal with this undeniable truth.

So what their forebearers could do with ease, they cannot. They don't even know where to start.

How did this happen?

It started with the 1-engine Charlie.

The beginning of Quake illiteracy. Are you are a 1-engine Charlie?

So how did this happen? I'm not here to explain, that isn't how meritocracy works. We all have to earn what we know know ... should we deserve to do so.

/Although this post is beer enabled, it is what I think 24/7 about the deficient 3rd tier state of Quake today that pales compared to works of the past. In older times, every map co-oped like Sewage Devastation because works that didn't do so were viewed by the stuffy elite as 2nd tier and who wanted to be 2nd tier? Against my better judgment, I click submit.
 
You know, the first map I made was quite old-school enough that it has all three game modes, and I'm happy about that.

But then, for my WIP episode, I decided to go all experimental: choosing exclusive/branching/partially intertwined paths, which makes coop difficult to implement. I kind of hated making the sacrifice and making the maps SP/DM only, because I think like you: I want my coop! (Even if I have no-one to play with.)

Now that I think about it, I guess, if I went the extra mile, I could implement some sort of forced teleportations to ensure that all players are on the same path, or something. Maybe I'll try to patch the maps for the full episode to make the path gameplay work for coop. 
Or To Be More Accurate 
which makes coop difficult to implement.

Well, maybe not necessary difficult to implement, but I guess more of a hassle. Even if in an ideal world I want all maps to be coop, I guess since I don't have close friends to coop with, I couldn't be bothered to go through the effort of doing it.

But for some reason I did go the extra mile to implement dm (while still having no friends to play with). Hmm, I wonder why I did that. Maybe I just thought in my close-minded head, that I simply just can't implement coop in a branching path map, or something.

Sorry, kind of rambling writing here. 
Tl;dr 
"i am drunk and upset more people aren't using mark v" 
This Thread Will Be Closed At Some Point. 
But it's getting left up for now because it's a fantastic insight into Baker's mindstate. Feel free to discuss for a while - if you can work out what on Earth to discuss...... 
 
1.> mix your beer with tomato juice and you wont have a headache in the morning.

2.> All maps are fun to play in any mode, with the right weapon balance.

3.> Coop kinda sucks, if you are playing stock quake AI.

4.> I have no idea what im talking about it's 5am... 
 
Has it ever occurred to you pea brain that some people don't care about coop and deathmatch in SP maps? 
 
I don't have enough friends to play coop with :C

Thanks for the reminder tbh 
 
You don't need friends for co-op. None of my friends play Quake or any video games for that matter. I've been asking around for a while for people who wanted to do AD co-op or even regular co-op but only one person has taken me up on it so far. 
 
The latest Q1SP release has coop and DM support: http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=61620

This means this thread has succeeded and can now be closed. 
 
I have a friend who likes Quake but doesn't play custom maps except for when I ask him to test mine. We only co-op console games however. Our go-to is Halo: Reach Firefight mode with player speed turned way up and gravity turned way down.

Is there more to supporting co-op than putting in co-op starts and making sure there aren't any changing brushes that would block players from returning from start? I imagine in some cases ammo distribution might be an issue. 
 
i feel like there are threads every few years where people say "you guys forgot about co-op!"

2005: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=31035

2010: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60436

2016: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=61291

I agree with them, so glad we're talking about it again. 
 
Is there more to supporting co-op than putting in co-op starts and making sure there aren't any changing brushes that would block players from returning from start?

Anything the mapper can think off, as long as a coop only switch can be added, which is not hard if placing the coop starts where the first player cannot reach. Most common feature is to add some ways to get fast into the action after dying. 
BUMP. 
 
Add Splitscreen 
And we might see more consideration for co-op.

Or at least some way of saving co-op progress for MP, some of these maps are long as shit! 
 
I also remember coop enables a different way to play a map solo - you respawn at the start but ofc whatever you have killed so far stays dead, and weapon pickups respawn/persist (but not ammo? I forget)

It allows an alternative to spastically hammering the quicksave shortcut as a coping technique for the combat challenged 
Would There Be Ppl Interested Of Coop Ep? 
 
Thumbs Up! 
Sounds like a good theme for a map jam! Actually, I've been playing around with a few coop only ideas in my head, but haven't got around to mapping them yet.

Map jams don't really suit my mapping style, though, so I wouldn't participate. 
As A Kid, I Always Played Coop, By Myself And With Others 
I think I had the keyboard keys memorized that navigated to the page where you select the level to play coop.

Also, didn't the game used to ask funny questions when you quit? What happened to that?


Coop:
All my maps are made for coop as any map should. Some features that I've used that could be interesting for a jam:
•Trapping both sets of players initially in two different prison cells (Limbo 2), where you have to rely on your friend(s) in the other area to let you out by shooting a somewhat hidden button. (Had a crusher trap in case you only had 2 players that ended up on the same side.)
•Shifting teleport destination. At the beginning of Terracity I had a teleporter that changed destination as the map progressed to save some time walking back from the spawn.
•Exposing alternate paths as the level progresses. For truly good examples of this, see sock maps.
•Exposing more weapons at the start. I had cages that opened at the start of Terracity after each weapon was found "in the wild" so if you died you could grab them all again before teleporting back into the action.
•Double pressure plates requiring two people to stand on at once. Basically just well spaced buttons that reset doors in front of a hidden trap shooter too quickly for one player to activate both at once.


I started mapping specifically because me and my sisters loved playing coop so much that I made my own levels for us/them to play. They were my guinea pigs and my customers. I love the idea of a coop jam. AD has great features for this if we do it at some point. 
 
Uncoopable maps are by handicapped authors who don't have enough diversity to do what every 1997 map author could do.

When the newest uncoopable map is released, I am only reminded that they don't have the same level of talent as the people who made Insomnia, Travail, Soul of Evil, or Warpspasm. Yet they had greater tools to perform their obviously lessor works.

And it's true!

You may find what I have to say as unpleasant to current crop of incapable mappers, but nevertheless everyone agrees with it. Not even those that hate this thread are disputing it, which means it is a "true fact".

Current map authors using greater tools are unable to do what previous map authors could do (i.e. you are not a metlslime, czg, necros, tronyn, distrans). They have better tools but their skill level is unable to maximize the value unlike those that came before them due to them not knowing enough about Quake.

True fact! And despite those who would object, none of them dispute it.

My only goal is knowledge, therefore although winning the argument, I think I have failed.

But only in the short term ... I think there is a "lost chapters", but for a future time ,,,

Right?

And perhaps this future time knows something obvious even today ... but who knows! Exactly! Right?

/Lets go! Submit! 
A Cooperative Episode Would Be Most Gnarly,my Dudes 
We could make Gunter put it on his fvf server so we could faff about the maps looking for exploits. Also if there was some iteration of a cooperative server where new releases could be uploaded to to play on perhaps more maps would come with cooperative mode in mind so the creators can watch us get lost and die embarrassing deaths in real time. 
#19 
My only goal is knowledge

Knowledge? Well, you're only succeeding in offending people. If you are just looking to pass on your vast store of wisdom on game design then why the incendiary language and insults?

I don't get it. 
So The Take Away Is Map With Old Obsolete Tools 
gotcha, on it. 
So 
I never play coop. What are the requirements to convert a sp to coop-compatible? 
Easy 
add 4 coop spawns 
Baker 
You're a fucking buffoon who should probably lay off the booze. That's bad for both your health and our collective sanity. If you're so nostalgic of coop maps, why don't you make them yourselves?

The fact that some people even indulge you here is utterly baffling to me. Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up. 
 
Not so fast. Just adding coop starts isn't enough if a map is designed to trap the player in. Sometimes you need coop only teleports that open up to let coopers or your respawned self back in to the trap or past it. 
 
I Think #25 Is A Fair And Reasoned Response. 
Tempted to close the thread on that one. But maybe not quite yet.

I must say the ability to add a few coop starts and a triggerable teleporter (a la E1M3) in any locked areas is truly a fantastic level of mapping skill that distinguishes the greats of the past from the incompetent grovelling wannabes today. 
 
Insomnia and Warp Spasm have coop "support", but are fucking boring in coop because of how huge they are.

Vondur's maps are coopable - but it doesn't take a genius to figure out they're simply not built for coop.

Making maps for coop is not difficult, but it's annoying, since you either need to bin all the interesting gameplay ideas* or add shitty workarounds like the e1m3 teleporter.

* - Contract Revoked breaks in coop almost immediately with how some doors and bridges are built - they could have been changed to be coop friendly, resulting in neutered, zero challenge gameplay.

And that's what coop is, at its root: Q1SP where the penalty for dying is being bored.

No one cares about coop. This can be proved scientifically.

Take a representative sample of players and ask them how often do they coop.

Some will have a fond memory of cooping that one time, yes. Most won't, since coop isn't interesting even in the most coop friendly map.

Of all the things that contributed to Quake's longevity, coop is by and far not one of them. 
 
Quite.

It's entirely possible that the reason modern maps don't have co-op is something other than lack of skill. 
Gotta Agree With #29 
 
#31 
Most probably:
- Focus on brushwork detail and eyecandy in general over gameplay.
- Streamlining on gameplay or how a Quake map should be.
- Coop is MP, Quake MP sites have been on a decline, and this is a SP site, even more focused on Quake and in SP than ever before.
- This is not 1997. People don't gather on other people's houses to play anymore. 
Was Refering To #30 
 
 
!gather on other people's houses to play Sad but true. All good points. 
Fuck 
This Christmas I am getting a bunch of people and gathering at a person's house and literally playing coop and deathmatch quake in singleplayer levels. THIS IS 1997. 
Good Luck 
I have tried to gather people for LAN or internet play like in 199x in the last decade, but even people that were fanatics back then are not interested, so i only was successful once or twice.

By the way I can testify about the not gathering part that is being commented: i came back to the University for a second degree and to save money i went to a shared flat with students: apart from the typical problems from the big age difference what i found out is that almost no one of them played with other people, but play with strangers over the net, and even with that they don't play much save the guys hooked on some Pay to Win or mmorpg. Strange times indeed. I think that even us played more back then than the kids nowadays. 
 
the guys hooked on some Pay to Win or mmorpg.

My wife would probably fall under this category. She plays MMORPGS a lot, and she's developed a close circle of friends with whom she talks every day over Discord.

But there's a twist. She's actually going to meet with them next week in England, doing nerdy stuff like Dungeons and Dragons and more MMORPG-playing, I'm guessing. It was a surprise for me to hear about them having an actual gathering.

(As a side note, my MMORPG days ended around 2006-2007, when I stopped playing Runescape.) 
Nope. 
sorry dude but nobody ever played coop, EVER. you couldn't find any server running coop, and if you tried to make one nobody would play it with you.

the only time coop gets played is on a LAN if you hold them there at gunpoint and force them to play it with you. and friendly fire turns it into a dm so it wont stay a coop game for long... 
Case In Point 
Coop party with your brother, your father, and your 5yr old nephew = 5yr old nephew blasting everyone and everything with rocket launcher....then stealing everyone's backpack.

I was that 5 yr old and it was totally awesome. 
Tldr. But... 
it could be possible engine side or quakec-wise to dynamically add coop spawns for maps that dont have any, if the coop cvar is set.
so just add it in markV to do so and all maps are coOp’erable. :D 
 
Technically coop starts aren't necessary as it falls back to use standard player start...it's just more annoying/funny when everyone telefrag gibs each other at next level load or after blowing themselves up at once. 
Well... 
I don't think spawn points are the major stumbling point when it comes to co-op, here's another couple of possible QuakeC fixes :

* Making all players non-solid to one another like L4D
* Having players join the server in observer mode, and only allowed to spawn once a spot is clear

The real problem comes when you have one-way features in your map, and add the ability to respawn. Think of E1M3, with the fake-out trap lift at the end of the map. It doesn't matter in single player that the lift never returns, if you die at the top you have to restart. But in Co-op you respawn, which is why the map opens a teleporter up there after the lift leaves.

It's that kind of thing that co-op compatibility is concerned with. It's very easy to make assumptions that there's only one player on the map when setting up triggers, and have that reasoning broken in co-op. Even just things like how large the lifts are, whether you have arenas that trap "the player" for a while, these things matter for co-op. 
Mark V Coop 
* Making all players non-solid to one another like L4D

I believe Mark V has this. But only at spawn.

But in Co-op you respawn, which is why the map opens a teleporter up there after the lift leaves.

Excellent point. Ypu've inspired me. I am going to review this thread and do a coop video!!! Damn you Baker!!! 
 
there's also the issue of the route from the start point back to the action being too far and kind of boring -- hub-based layouts where that route is always nice and short would be better for co-op. For example, E2M6. This assumes players know where to go, though :) 
E1M3 
The teleporter is also for SP. After fighting for the exit, the player can still choose to jump down the hole and get some health that was left lying around. In that case the teleporter is a workaround for not using a second permanent lift. 
 
@metl: there wouldn't be much penalty for dying if you came back right where you died, but yes on sock or Orl-sized maps it is good to add shortcuts and maintain tighter hub or revisiting designs or else coop would become a chore. 
 
If you want a penalty, maybe add a respawn timer so players have to wait a while before respawning? And make it so players can spawn on the living teammate's location. This would make the time penalty more consistent. Right now it's no penalty at map start and a huge penalty if you have to travel 3 minutes to get to the front lines. This way it would always be e.g. 15 seconds. 
 
Oh I actually like that idea. I might just steal that for my mod. 
#47 
I'd say, adding to that; if all/both players die then game over! 
Agreed 
both #47 and #49 would make coop SO much better. 
May I Ad... 
please, something like https://www.coopordie.com for Quake1 ;) 
Continue The Discussion Via The Medium Of .bsps... 
SM188: The Age Of The No Penis Mapper

Theme: Re-read Baker's magnificent first post and make a map inspired by / in response to it.

Obviously this is quite conceptual. It's up to you, as the accused no-penis-mapper, to interpret it. You could acquiesce to Baker's words of wisdom and make a map featuring no penises but lots of coop starts. Or you could make a tribute to the great orator and make the whole map an enormous penis. Or anything in between.

If that's all a bit avant-garde, just make "classic Quake with a modern twist".

Restrictions:
Any wad - vanilla Id1 only - runs in Quakespasm and Mark V

Deadline:
12am GMT Monday 17th September (4+ days from now).

Submit to:
teamshambler@googlemail.com

(I know this is a bit soon after SM187 but I wanted to do it while it's vaguely topical). 
Wow A Spawn Timer Is A Great Idea 
if I ever release another map I am trying to keep my genitalia intact and continue to support coop (lol). I like the idea that if a player is killed, during the spawn timer his (or her) camera would show what other players are doing. I played some of the AD maps coop at Christmas and that was pretty good, but signposting becomes really important and most of us who still play SP are used to way more demanding layouts than would be suited for the average round of coop. Having shortcuts open up as pointed out above is great, but it may be more complicated to implement in modern maps which can be more nonlinear. 
And My Final Word On This Weighty And Solemn Matter.... 
Coop Idea 
Why not do it "Halo Style" and respawn players next to an alive player who isn't in combat (no damage taken or weapons fired for a few seconds for example)?
Obviously a bit more complicated but far from impossible to create. This would cut out a lot of the issues (one way things, annoyingly long walks, etc.) that people have brought up so far, from what I can see. 
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