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"Toxic Quake Community" Amnesty And Apology Thread.
Warning: This is a positive resolution / solution thread, not a beef thread. You wanna beef, go elsewhere.

It has come to my attention that there are occasional accusations of the Quake community having some negative social aspects. Indeed in the words of rebb (compiler coder) in 2018:

I have known the Quake community for a very long time as one of the most toxic and narcissistic creative communities.
For a moment in time things appeared to have improved, but it turned out to be little more than naive wishful thinking.

Between all it's newfound glory, hyperdetailed maps and "god mappers" still sits the same deep prideful arrogance and highly toxic nature that has most likely been there since the very beginning.
It is a cold and self-obsessed place.


Strong words (which I personally entirely disagree with as someone who has been in the scene from Day 1, both as a player AND contributor). Unfortunately he doesn't specify what actually happened nor who he is referring to. And it's hard to have sympathy without actually understanding what's going on, and it's hard to make progress from that without having some clarity and openness.

IF there is any such "toxicity" in the Quake scene, then I think it needs to be made explicit what the problems are, who has been "toxic", and whether such behaviour is explicable, redeemable, or even simply a misunderstanding of casual behaviour, as per the wise words of Kinn (sometime mapper):

ok, here it goes - there is a lot of really obvious playful pisstaking in this community which is good.
as a man of this sceptred isle, a man of rosy-cheeked chappery and good-humoured banter, I welcome the very obvious joking around and tomfoolery
but perhaps a lot of people don't "get it" - perhaps it's down to cultural differences, or perhaps some even are "on the spectrum" as it were, and struggle to differentiate a malicious comment from an obvious mickey-take


---

This is not to start arguments or flame wars. This is to CLEAR THOSE UP by explaining what is going on discussing calmly, apologising if needed. There's no point moaning about toxicity and not trying to sort it out, so...
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And I Will Admit To: 
1. Slagging off OneMadGypsy after his meltdown / Quake scene dismissal. No apology as his whole rant was full of direct threats and massive arrogance / narcissism.

2. Taking the piss out of Baker in his notorious "Age Of The No Penis Mapper" thread. And making a map full of cocks. I never knew if he played the map. I thought it was quite decent for a semi-speedmap.

3. Being highly critical of Bloodshots Quake 1.5 mod. This is nothing personal against Bloodshot even if the aesthetic taste in the mod is bewildering, and I have been clearly praising of his great JamX map.

4. Posting and arguing about Spirit's insults to me on his Quaddicted thread. He was directly insulting to me for no reason. No bad blood from my side and no interest in continuing.

5. I've called Sock a drama queen on numerous occasions. Not as many occasions as I've praised his work though.

6. I sometimes subtly take the piss of the "Quake Mapping" discord channel. This might have something to do with not liking heavily censored channels, nor the lack of integration with #terrafusion. But OTOH I know the ruler does good work and have given him credit for that.

If anyone thinks this is toxic in context of my other general communication / contribution, let me know. 
 
I touched upon the subject matter after some complaints of "toxicity" following community people poking fun at someone who clearly suffers mental disorders.

In context that this person had aggressively and rudely ranted at others, here is what I had to say there :

<Don't get me wrong, some metldowns are indeed gut wrenching (for anyone with a touch of empathy) but expecting internet people on forums to not take a slag at such meltdown especially if it contains insulting content - is just out of touch.

People with severe mental illness do need help and not dissing, but among a loose knit group of game/creative enthusiasts is not the place to hope to get it from. its not the function of such a place, it is not a "safe space", its a community of rando people tied by interest in creative activities, no more. You will get unpleasant brush ups with what you perceive to be unpleasant people, one has to deal with such things, it is not elsewise outside the house.
You might through PM get something more, forge a closer friendship with some members of such a community, but this is not going to happen with any community "at large" other than ones focused on being support groups around the subject of mental illness. > 
A Small Thing 
Most of you would have forgotten it but....
I'd like to apologize for saying some stupid juvenile stuff here.I wasn't exactly in the right frame of mind,being 13 and stupid.

I intend to actually release a small mod as an extended apology.It's basically Goofy Quake 2.For Quake 1. 
 
Some jokes have the side effect of making people feel welcome or unwelcome in the community. I'm not sure "toxic" is a productive word to use here, but the community can absolutely be a "boys club".

To take one example that stuck with me, I recently went through this Quake C tutorials by MauveBib (from back in 2008? or earlier?). Between useful information, there are some of these "boys club" jokes that aren't very funny and also make me feel like an outsider. As a result, I'm wary to pass on an otherwise-useful tutorial to friends who might like modding in QC. I don't think the "humor" of these jokes makes up for the way they make people feel unwelcome.

My perspective in the quake community (as a comparatively recent arrival) is probably an odd one. I work as a professional level designer with a background in Unreal Tournament modding. Most of the professional level designers I know also got their start in mod scenes, which were also "boys clubs". As a result, we're kind of a samey lot, making samey games, and it's all a bit creatively-empty and dull. I like working with more diverse teams, which requires more diverse applicants, which I think means making the mod scenes more welcoming spaces so more people can gain those skills in the first place.

I also see a new generation of would-be level-designers learning in Unreal Engine and Unity outside the context of any specific game. They're learning the tools, but not the concepts, so it's not proper level design. When I've been involved with hiring LDs, the applications from game dev university graduates are terribly shallow. With those concerns in mind, I see how Quake and Trenchbroom could serve a new generation of level designers by providing them an environment to learn. I've tried inviting some friends with that hope, but they have bounced off after making a map, if they even get that far. Maybe I'm correct in the "boys club" diagnosis, or maybe it's inherent to Quake and a weakness of its theme and a narrow appeal?

In any case, with things like Quake 1.5 and weirder experiments, I think there's a productive way to say "cool, this isn't for me, but it is still welcome here". Per Baker's thread, I think it can also be useful to say "hey can we get more [x, y, z]", but I don't think it has to be either/or. We can have co-op maps and id1 maps and AD maps all at once without detracting from each other! I think there's also value in highlighting the work of newcomers, and creating mapping events specifically to welcome them and offer feedback. I've brought it up before, but Doom is a comparatively lively and diverse scene, and I think that's worth aiming for. 
Shambler 
I sometimes subtly take the piss of the "Quake Mapping" discord channel. This might have something to do with not liking heavily censored channels, nor the lack of integration with #terrafusion. But OTOH I know the ruler does good work and have given him credit for that.

I've explained both publicly and privately directly to you the reason I keep the Discord SFW. It's a good reason: I like my job. If I administer the site from work I am responsible for its content. End of story. I guess that's not good enough though as I continue to pay for it. Sorry you can't post "cuntflaps" on my Discord.

Partial "blame" for the "split" between #TF and Quake mapping can be placed on otp. Originally, I was just going to have a small channel directly related to Q&A for the videos. I was being lazy about it and he approached me to do a channel. I wasn't really aware at the time, but I guess otp had some beef with Daz who admin'd #tf. In his own words:

2. Daz has revealed himself to be a giant pussy the moment he hosted tf on Discord and made it safe for work.

He encouraged me to create many of the channels that exist now and I did so because I know #tf is not the greatest place to drive people new to the mapping community. <shrug>

I made many attempts to cross-post events and stay in the know over at #tf. But I got tired of seeing personal attacks there, both on me and people I admire. Call me a pussy -- whatever, it bothered me and I left.

I apologize for nothing in regards to the Quake Mapping Discord. Futher, I don't see any apologies in #1 and I don't expect to. Some people love stirring up shit and provoking a response. Mission accomplished.

If I am wrong Shambler, then all I will say is: actions speak louder than words.

But publicly, I will apologize to sock, muk and scampie. Allowing another to influence my actions cost me fellowship with you guys and I do regret it. 
Yeah 
. Some people love stirring up shit and provoking a response.

That is true. If I see any of those people I'll trying to encourage them to read this thread and maybe acknowledge if that's gone awry.

Don't worry I did get your explanation at time, as you know, and respect that - even if I might joke about it. Yes, being able to say "cuntflaps" is fundamental to my lifestyle :)

I don't think anyone is suggesting for any apologies off you of course. Unless you've been secretly "toxic" when no-one's noticed. 
Ffs 
Wrote an epic response to mclong and phone killed it. Arse. 
#5 
I don't think there's any need to assign me some sort of hidden agenda, as I've been very clear about my motivations regarding the Quake Mapping Server - on func or elsewhere.

I wouldn't say Daz running a SFW Discord server had much influence on my suggestion to run a SFW Discord.

I'm happy, however, to see my role in getting the server running acknowledged again - the previous comments which left me out of the equation were a rather unnecessary jab, so it's good to see a retraction of that. 
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