|Posted by Shambler on 2019/06/04 14:01:16|
|Warning: This is a positive resolution / solution thread, not a beef thread. You wanna beef, go elsewhere.
It has come to my attention that there are occasional accusations of the Quake community having some negative social aspects. Indeed in the words of rebb (compiler coder) in 2018:
I have known the Quake community for a very long time as one of the most toxic and narcissistic creative communities.
For a moment in time things appeared to have improved, but it turned out to be little more than naive wishful thinking.
Between all it's newfound glory, hyperdetailed maps and "god mappers" still sits the same deep prideful arrogance and highly toxic nature that has most likely been there since the very beginning.
It is a cold and self-obsessed place.
Strong words (which I personally entirely disagree with as someone who has been in the scene from Day 1, both as a player AND contributor). Unfortunately he doesn't specify what actually happened nor who he is referring to. And it's hard to have sympathy without actually understanding what's going on, and it's hard to make progress from that without having some clarity and openness.
IF there is any such "toxicity" in the Quake scene, then I think it needs to be made explicit what the problems are, who has been "toxic", and whether such behaviour is explicable, redeemable, or even simply a misunderstanding of casual behaviour, as per the wise words of Kinn (sometime mapper):
ok, here it goes - there is a lot of really obvious playful pisstaking in this community which is good.
as a man of this sceptred isle, a man of rosy-cheeked chappery and good-humoured banter, I welcome the very obvious joking around and tomfoolery
but perhaps a lot of people don't "get it" - perhaps it's down to cultural differences, or perhaps some even are "on the spectrum" as it were, and struggle to differentiate a malicious comment from an obvious mickey-take
This is not to start arguments or flame wars. This is to CLEAR THOSE UP by explaining what is going on discussing calmly, apologising if needed. There's no point moaning about toxicity and not trying to sort it out, so...
The TBA Example
is kinda mild. One guy says "gameplay is bullshit" because it's a map with no ammo in it (i haven't played it myself), but the rest of the beefy comments are actually defending the map it seems.
Small Communities Of Old Friends
Inside jokes are unavoidable among small communities. Especially when they know each other since long. It's never easy at first for the newcomer to get the local spirit and dialog subtleties between old members (!). As a long time Quake lover, steady lurker and rare poster on this forum, I really see this 'toxicity' as an imaginary problem too. Autarchy and self-regulation works well here. Without proper official moderation, I think Func is a great example of a long time healthy community forum after all.
Day by day life between people knowing each other well is generally full of (sometimes nasty) jokes, rants, flames, sometimes anger and rage quits. This is the price to pay when your life is built on love and passion. No mysteries here. No toxicity either. Just healty passionate people. To hell with god-fearing confessions ! (After all, Quake is about lurid dongeons, monsters, gothic visions, bloody body explosions and all, right ?)
And yes, maybe a 'beef thread' is filled with hard to catch spirit from a noob point of view, but anyway in this case, just refer to the Fight Club first rule...
It's fair enough to say you don't like the name (I don't, for all the same reasons as have been posted). This is just feedback. I think the error there is probably as you say "meatheadded miscommunication" where the language used is a bit too strong for the subject at hand. Serious enough to raise it as an issue though? Quakeulf didn't seem fazed at all by it, so that's debatable.
A good post by JohnXmas btw. :cheers:
Was there a better way of communicating with an extreme purist who doesn't think our maps are Quake maps anymore. Hmm no I don't think so.
It was obvious bait and/or cry for attention. It was met with an appropiate response.
Felt like my responsibility, being the organiser of that particular pack.
Speedmaps are a great gateway into mapping, nowadays often very good maps in their own right, and I resent a worthless anon calling tba/ukko's map a troll map that shouldn't have been included.
Anonymous posts are the antithesis of func culture.
just want to note here that the real toxic comment about TBA's map was from some fuckwad wanking shitecovered cumguzzling dick inhaling asshole anon again.
My point is not just the comments directed at TBA's map. The whole conversation turned into a beef where it was difficult for additional feedback that wouldn't get wrangled in. It's all a bit "salt the earth and let nothing grow"... or, to JohnXmas's point, it may be playful banter that I'm misinterpreting as a relative newcomer to the scene.
Good to know TBA is Ukko! That deflates my point a bit, but that's a good thing.
There's no two ways about it, anonyposts have the ability to trigger a shitstorm, where otherwise there wouldn't have been one.
As soon as someone is accountable for what they say, they tend to be more civil.
The shit-talk propagates in both directions, when anons are involved. As well as anons shit-talking, a logged-in poster can also shit-talk back at the anon without needing to be civil in any way, because it's not personal. You don't know who's on the receiving end and it's fair game.
So it was that shitpost begat shitpost begat shitpost begat shitpost , until the great brown ouroboros of shitposting finally disappeared into its own arsehole and func was no more, save for a small, rusty-hued, infinitely dense pucker in the fabric of cyberspace.
The quake community, born from a love of the brown game, eventually died at the hands of the brown post.
Explain This One Away
This one started over on #tf Discord and continued over here.
Could you blame a newcomer for reading this and being a bit put off?
The Catch 22
...is that people who have left here due to harassment or rudeness aren't around to explain why and who was responsible. Which makes this thread kind of pointless.
My newcomer's perspective: I basically started speaking to the people who were receptive to my mapping interests and answering my questions. Nonsense posts I didn't understand did not concern me so I left them alone (who knows what long standing beef exists between strangers on the internet). After getting to know who is who, it's really not so bad. It is the internet after all, but more than that, it's an internet forum about a video game. Banter is part of any community after all- digital or otherwise.
The time has come to abolish the schisms of yesterday! One global Quake community- One struggle!
When I made and released my one and only deathmatch map I was expecting it to be praised as one of the best ever made. Of course it was reviewed as nothing more than average, and me being the teenager I was at the time with a thin skin, threw a bitch fit. I was then promptly told I was full of shit, and rightly so. I'll never forget that.
But anyway every community has toxicity and drama, but besides a few bad apples I like to believe Quake's community is the most welcoming to newcomers. Sure you may get busted on every now and then but that's just any community right? That's not being toxic. Even if a person's first map or mod is total garbage, the majority of people here will say don't give up, keep going and you will get better. Not unlike certain members of the Doom community...
Literally no one cares.
Kinn: Quite possibly.
Mclong: Thanks for posting examples, that doesn't seem like singling people out, but just giving clear examples.
For the SM thread, I think it's pretty fair to be critical of a map with no ammo, even to the extent of calling the gameplay bullshit (by negke who is far too grumpy to troll). It takes a matter of seconds to dump some ammo boxes in. The consensus seemed to be it was a valid criticism, but an anon accusing it of being a troll map was less valid.
For the RetroPEW thread, there might have been some harshness, but I stand by my criticism on the basis that the name is scientifically and objectively awful. I - amongst other people - did praise the site for the concept.
For both of these examples, yes there is some harshness, but it's not against the person, and it is for a reason.
JohnXmas - good post from an irregular participant.
Killes - eloquently put. As I've said before, having registration as a pre-requirement to harsh commentary or beef is useful for accountability, which brings me on to...
Dumptruck - firstly, you're right, this thread might be unfortunately more pointless than I hoped, if people are no longer around to air things out. Although maybe that indicates the problems they had are no longer around??
Secondly, that is an interesting example. There is beef between OTP and Muk....plenty of know this and shrug it off, it's just two fluffly little things kicking their wee paws at each other again. It's self-contained interpersonal beef. BUT....is this off-putting in general?? Is it toxic in general?? I don't know. Maybe a bit if people don't know that it's just a couple of people beefing away (a familiar part of ANY community).
Kinn - also a conclusive argument.
Orl - there is a certain amount of rigorousness here, but then again that does partly encourage quality and progress (and it's usually combined with encouragement).
OTP - wheesht.
Func Is Fine
I've spoken up here a few times in the programming help thread asking for help with what in retrospect was pretty obvious shit that's covered by the multitude of quake spec docs floating around. I still got multiple people each time answering my questions and helping me understand things I wasn't sure of.
The same for the quake mapping discord. I took part in the dm4 map jam, and my map was kind of shit, but whenever I asked a question or showed screens I got honest feedback that was no more harsh or pointed than warranted.
Place is fine.
Not too long ago, acting like a xenophobic fuckhead in #terrafusion would have gotten you politely disinvited
from func and ongoing events.
In 2019, calling out xenophobic fuckheads gets your post deleted for being "Unnecessarily off-topic and hostile"?
Shambler, maybe the first proper step in addressing the "toxic community" question would be to actually confront the bigotry, instead of shoving it under the carpet. But apparently you prefer to make big sweeping statements about not tolerating fringe behavior, and then chose to not act on them when necessary.
Thanks For Pointing That Out OTP.
If you highlight current xxx-phobias in areas where I can moderate them, then I will be sure to confront that and act on it when necessary.
Bump, Nice Try Spammers
Take It To The Stasi
Thank god otp has no moderation power in this community, otherwise he'd likely be the only person left posting.
You've been trying to get me banned/kicked out for months with screencaps and quotes of my offences. That it hasn't worked and people don't give a fuck about anything you say is quite the comfy feeling.
Need Something To Get Off Your Chest Drew?
If anyone notices people raising concerns in other areas, i.e. reddit etc, please direct them to this thread so stuff can be cleared up. Thanks.
It's Quite A Funny
on one hand
eddie the shambler welcomes the newbies with a shittalking, posting and asking for a pooping vids, and he believes it's ok (tf discord)
on the other hand
and after all that two faced son of a gun is asking for retribution for spy
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