* I completed it, it took me 3 attempts, as my skills got a bit rusty compared to previous demos and i got into nightmare and took the GK side first, but was worthwhile. On the other side, this time i almost forgot i was recording a demo, so i couldn't feel the pressure from it.

- All monsters killed, all secrets and vaults found, except the SSG and SNG secrets.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/backstein_cocerello_night.7z

- The first demo is just the initital zone and me playing awfully and too hastily, so i died very early.

- For the second attempt, i played carefully and got till the shambler that took a free hit on me while i was on low life. I forgot to use both the GL and LG so i was a bit tight on ammo, but that made the experience better.

- In the third demo, i began to record at the point i died to reduce the size of the demos and to don't get you bored. This time i killed the shambler staying comfortably at the balcony by dragging the knights with grenades.



* About the map, is very, very good. Twistedly nice layout with variety of rooms and combat types, good architecture, nicely positioned secrets, the big secrets (vaults) are always nice to have, and some original ideas, all blended with your personal style.

- The idea of giving the players more options is good, and way more polished that in your previous map, interesting is too the secrets that show you another way to go and play, highlighting the wind tunnels ones, even though the crushers, with that chaotic and intense combat barely gives your brain room to think about them.

- The idea of having everything organized by the textures is a good one, the problem (or not), is that it makes the player get used to it, even thought that is a good thing because it makes it so the players understand the map better, that makes the players able to avoid certain parts and maybe makes too easy some parts (the secrets). The secrets, found one, found all (almost). Maybe a bit more variation would be better.

- Even though the rooms have personality and are detailed, sometimes it seems like it is too similar and there isn't too many rooms that make you look amazed at them, even more with the SK side. Mabe it is that big rooms look more epic, or it is about the textures, that need more variation.

- Like Vondur, i also thought that the wind tunnel in the SK side was a balcony, and spent some minutes finding the way to go.

- I haven't found the GK side particularly hard compared with the SK side, even though i tried it first. It has more monsters and more hordes, but i do think that it has a similar difficulty, even maybe the SK side is harder.
Maybe it was because i got hopes that it would be an nearly impossible side if i didn't completed the SK side first when i was reading the .txt and the comments here.

I'm not very found of those teleporting monsters at point-blank range. They are OK for hard and nightmare, but maybe for normal and easy would be better to drop them from some height or use the wind tunnels.
The knights using the wind tunnel was a very good way to deploy them, i am particularly fond of the wind tunnel deployment afar from the crushers in the GK side.
The shamblers, on the other side, can get some free hits and kill you if you aren't near cover when they appear.

- As you can see in the demos, even in nightmare, i wasn't struggling with the ammo and had way more than i could spam. But i do think it is nicely balanced, as that ammo is needed for those that haven't found secrets or used the traps and crushers.

- Overall, a very good map with no flaws, as the issues i mentioned before are VERY minor.

Congratulations, Sock!! 

You have to slow a bit when playing, i got a headache when watching your demo. Good skills btw, but which attempt it is?, sometimes it seems that you know where to go and where the monsters are beforehand. 

Sock, the first elevator at the SK side disappears sometimes, as you can see in the demos. I played it in Quakespasm 0.85.7, if that can help you.

I forgot to mention too how much i like the starting area and all its secrets, i always like to explore and that part was superbly well done and good for exploring. The part about hinting that there is something to explore there is nicely done too. 

someday i just wocken up















He's da man


______
i'm a bit drunken now (as always)

id like to play teh episode two (remixed by Simon)

and episode 4 once and firever 

brushwork, texturing and lighting are all top notch. I loved the theme and architectural style as well as the non-linearity.

As for gameplay, I found I always had too much ammo on normal despite the monster placement and gameplay setups generally being very fresh and well planned. The last arena was a bit too easy because of the 3 crushers and a blocked wind tunnel in the middle. It was very easy to lose a horde in the middle because of the blocking (and also avoid shambler lightning). The earlier arena with just two crushers and no blocking in the middle worked better. 

Skill 2 has some pretty intense combat :) First play demo of the first 25% or something: michael.hudsondoyle.geek.nz/mwh2.dem (played in RMQ i'm afraid). Probably should have played in tourist mode for the first go... 

http://michael.hudsondoyle.geek.nz/mwh2.dem 

@Sock: Thanks. I did enjoy the flanking possibilities of the map, good for replay value as it gives the player different choices as to how they want to approach the map. Always nice to have lots of room to move around in as well, opens up for some crazy evasive maneuvers and trickjumping, which to me is an essential part of what makes Quake so fun.

@Cocerello: Yeah I noticed that as well when rewatching some of my demo, I probably twitch around a bit too much, especially when there's no combat and just exploring and looking for secrets. Sorry about that.

It's my first attempt actually, the only part I had checked out before recording was the skill selection area. I think after having played the game and different custom maps so many times one develops a sort of "game sense" for these kinds of things - how a map will logically progress or where monsters will likely appear.

Again, great map, will have to replay it soon and take the GK route first this time! 

@Cocerello, yeah SK3 is really unforgiving especially with the shambler locations. The SNG trap is tough because the spawn location is right in the middle of the area and can cause problems if the player is low on ammo/health. To make matters worse the exit from that area is heavily populated, but the player can clear this area before picking up the SNG, it depends if the player understands the flashing runes or not.

I am surprised you saved so much ammo and did not use the LG very much. I thought by giving the LG early players would have fun with it more often. Unfortunately many of the demo's so far have players trying to kill shamblers with the SG/SSG when they have a huge ammo belt of nails/cells to play with.

The idea of having everything organized by the textures is a good one, the problem (or not), is that it makes the player get used to it, even thought that is a good thing because it makes it so the players understand the map better, that makes the players able to avoid certain parts

That is the point, the player has a choice, if they don't need or want certain weapons they can skip the trigger trap. The choice is in the players hands. The map is not designed for a single play through, there are many ways to approach certain areas and the flashing runes is a design mechanic that develops over time.

there isn't too many rooms that make you look amazed at them, even more with the SK side. Mabe it is that big rooms look more epic

Personally I love the SK side because of the vertical depth of the SNG room, it looks amazing to look up or down from within that area. I especially like the double Shalrath area in the corner with its many floors, weaving up and over each other. The SK certainly does not have huge epic space but it feels more interesting to me with gorgeous vertical eye candy and variety of floor heights.

I haven't found the GK side particularly hard compared with the SK side, even though i tried it first. It has more monsters and more hordes, but i do think that it has a similar difficulty, even maybe the SK side is harder.

The difficult of the GK side depends on which start route the player takes and if they want to have/use heavy weapons (SNG/RL) There are 3 starting routes for the crusher event:

1. Drop down pipe, fight ogres/HK and take one way lift down. This is the hard situation because the player has no space to retreat, no extra armour or weapons.
2. Drop down pipe, fight ogres/HK but open GL/MH balcony instead of taking lift down. This gives an important weapon early and buffs health for horde combat. Good starting location but things can get messy later on with the spike trap room.
3. Find secret button in wind tunnel and start in lower spike trap room. This is the easiest because the trap shooters empty the room, the player has a retreat location, gets armour and has a safe location for easily killing more enemies.

The GK side is about heavy weapons, horde combat and wide open spaces. The hard mode + is a way to start the area with less weapons and give the player more of a challenge by not relying on SNG/RL spam. Couple this with a different starting routes and the situation can get more difficult. The final wild card for the GK side is if the player uses the crushers or not.

The SK side is about tight spaces, planning attacks and effective use of floor heights. If the player rushes the encounters and thinks they can run around starting infighting they will be in for a surprise. Each side has its own merits and that is by design so the combat situations feel fresh across the while map. 

The way i said the part about your demo is a bit misleading, i was just commenting it as it is something very curious.

On the other side, i don't think there is a reason to feel sorry, you play the way you want. And it adds another way to play for the mapper and the rest to watch, and that is always good. 

@nitin, it sounds like you need to play skill 2. I was going to fine tune the ammo for skill 0/1 but then I decided that people who choose that skill want to enjoy firing the Nailgun like crazy. If you want ammo conservation then skill 2 is the one, the map certainly offers enough choices that it can be played several times.

@mwh, I wish the RMQ engine had proper demo support like MarkV, not being able to pause a demo is frustrating. I do like the extra eye candy but sometimes it can get too much with a room of HK and the screen just goes fullbright. Your demo felt like you were playing on another skill level and were trying to rush the encounters. At least the map worked really well on the RMQ/DQ engine. :) 

You can slow down or speed up the playback by lowering the host_framerate. If you set the value low enough, you can effectively pause the demo. 

was going to do just that, I have some time tomorrow morning or monday morning.

Will report back on skill 2 playthrough. 

1st run skill 2 no LG

2nd run hard + *with* LG 

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/backstein_drew.zip 

@negke, Unfortunately host_framerate is not an ideal solution because it slows down everything including the console response time. The pause function in MarkV is perfect and would be awesome if it became a standard across all Quake engines.

@Drew, thanks for your demo, awesome to watch. :) I especially like how you play with the monsters, setting them for infighting by moving around so much. I am glad you spotted the visual clues on the pipes in the central area. BTW you can jump to the first GA on the SK side. I usually prefer to go up the first set of steps, jump to the SSG, back up and then jump to the GA :D 

The map has been out a week and I have got 20 demo files!?! They all show various sides to the map and I am totally surprised by how many people took the time to record a demo. Thank you everyone, it was awesome to watch what everyone was doing with this map. :D

20 Backsteingotik demos - 80Mb file size

List of contributors : Berntsen, Cocerello, Daz, distrans, Drew, FifthElephant, generic, Johnny Law, mfx, Mwh, onetruepurple, quakis, Scampie, Shambler, SleepwalkR, Spirit, spy and Vondur. 

Sock

* About the ammo:
I am by default someone that plays cautiously and that don't like to expend consumables if there isn't a good reason (for example most times i die in strategy games its because i saved too much resources and didn't expend them).
If you are talking about the second attempt, i do think i haven't done anything special, in fact i missed the traps and crushers, used the Quad very badly, and the monster infighting wasn't mainly on purpose.
If you are talking about the third, yes, i did some things: i used all the nail traps, even on monsters beyond those intended, searched actively for monster infighting to the point that on the central part, i retreated to the entrance so when the knights and hell knights went for me they would be hit for sure by the scrags, as both will be at the same height, but the things i do think that worked the best to save ammo were:
- Use the explosives only with groups.
- Use the quad at the best time.
Next time i'll put full demos, even if they become huge, so the mapper can see everything.
When i play a map with restricted ammo i use some tricks (not axing as i am awful with it). This time i wasn't actively and with the intention of trying to save ammo.

* About the LG, keep placing it in in future maps at the beginning if you like, it is a good idea. We don't use it because we are too used to that it is a luxury we can only find in the last parts of the maps/episodes, so even if you give it to us at the beginning, we will still use it only at the last parts.
After killing so many, i do think that no monster makes us nervous (maybe the gug), even the shamblers, so we don't use the LG against him. Being so used to kill them with SSG and SNG is another reason.
Resuming, keep placing it there, we will get used to that sooner or later and begin using it more (but i would restrict the ammo for it a bit if there is many combats that rely on surprises and ambushes, as the LG can render those combats useless).

* About the use of textures as signs, i was just commenting about it, about the fact that it is a double edged sword, that adds to the map a lot, but can lead to some situations when the player can use them in some unfair way, even though in your case it wasn't like that.

* there isn't too many rooms that make you look amazed at them, even more with the SK side. Mabe it is that big rooms look more epic

I haven't used the right words in this part, and you have to get the meaning in this part not phrase by phrase or this small part, more like the whole paragraph.
What i wanted to say in that paragraph is that even if they are detailed, and have their own distinct personality, those rooms at the SK side give the same type of feeling, so after going through many of them, the player can get the feeling that all of them are similar.
This feeling can be appreciated more because the textures are using mainly the same colours, red/brown. This feeling isn't so obvious in the GK side because there is many types of rooms.

By the way, as a mapper,for the brushwork and architecture, i do prefer too the SK side, for the layout and the combats, the GK side. 

@Drew, thanks for your demo,

List of contributors : Berntsen, Cocerello, Daz, distrans, Drew, FifthElephant, generic, Johnny Law, mfx, Mwh, onetruepurple, quakis, Scampie, Shambler, SleepwalkR, Spirit, spy and Vondur.

Wow. All this thanks going out to people; and a list of contributors; and a large archive of demos. Yet, you forgot to mention/include my name.

You haven't thanked me for the time I took/spent to provide you with a demo and feedback despite the fact that I didn't want to play the map anyways; but I did so anyways, because I felt like doing a good deed.

Hard to assume that you merely forgot though, given my posts/attention in this thread. So, it almost seems likely that you have not forgot, but instead you're giving me "the silent treatment" because my positive feedback included complains about how you release and how you package your "map" (not "mod"?).

Heh. Funny.

The least you could've done was said "I'm sorry to hear that. But thank you for demo."

Oh well. I guess I can't always expect appreciation and patience from people, because not all people are mature enough to do so regardless of the situation. This lowers my expectations of people, and helps strengthen my own patience though; so, in a way, I should thank you for that. Thanks.

---

By the way, why are you releasing a pack of demos? Is that the trend now a days that mappers do after each time they release a map? Asking favors from people to record/submit their demos, then collecting/packaging them all and releasing an archive of those demos back out to the public; and so soon? Is that the trend now?, or is that just something you're doing (now) as a way to "rub it in" the silent treatment you're giving me--because you figured I'd notice it.

Funny. 

stop acting like an entitled little bitch.

The guy is making great maps for an old game in his, presumably, spare time. The amount of time and effort it takes to make these and get the balance right is immense. And you're sitting there moaning because what? Because he didn't mention your name in a post and include your demo in a .zip file?

Well so bloody what! 

 

I did not notice the map being non linear (i avoid reading long text in readme files in fear of spoilers) so I am looking forward to replay it!

deqer: i would have sent that as mail, such anger in public can only end badly. 

you are an idiot. 

It's all a conspiracy! 

It won't help anyone.