#1 posted by Baker on 2018/06/15 05:00:43
There is a decent quantity of maps are open source so the .map is in the .zip with the .bsp.
For instance, Arcane Dimensions.
So you just open the .map, find the rock you liked and paste it in your map if your map editor supports that.
If the map isn't open source, you can just use a Quake map decompiler and then do the above.
Not much need for prefabs in Quake.
There are no shortcuts in life! Take it from an old fart.
IMO copying and pasting from other's maps is not making maps. Unless you really know how to do it yourself that is. At this point you clearly do not.
Just learn how to make brush-based geometry yourself - the right way. By putting the work into it. I put my maps out there so people can learn from them, not copy and paste my hard work.
Now I've used fog settings and lights from people's maps but I usually tweak them or just redo them eventually. And it's always because I am not clear on something and want to learn. i.e mangles and delay/wait settings from Skacky or fog settings from Sock.
Not everyone feels this way clearly, but I sure as hell do. If you do copy and paste from someone's map PLEASE give them credit in your readme file.
But best to learn for yourself and that cannot be rushed.
#3 posted by lpowell
on 2018/06/15 06:26:01
Some mods, such as Quoth and Arcane Dimensions, allow you to use custom models (.mdl) in your maps. They come with some, and you can grab additional models from other other places like Preach's blog:
Definitely give credit for anything you use in your map's readme.
How Did His Question Turn Into...
... a damn ethics/principles lecture from _dump?
He simply asked "... are there any prefabs and if so can you point me to them?"
Is it to hard to just answer his question without the diatribe!
#5 posted by ww
on 2018/06/15 09:13:55
OP already gets it but Bakers idea of just opening AD maps and copying rocks is a bit insane. Nobody recommends you do that.
I've been in touch with Therektafire over on Discord so we've discussed similar issues in the past few days. He can take my advice or leave it.
I think I was pretty clear when I typed: Not everyone feels this way clearly, but I sure as hell do.
I actually feel very
strongly about it. Sorry to have offended anyone. But tough love is still love, my brothers!
@Therektifire there were some Prefab sites around a while ago but many of them have dead links. Here's one:
#7 posted by Baker on 2018/06/15 10:12:55
Copy/paste is complete child's play in editors like J.A.C.K/Hammer/Worldcraft. You can have multiple maps open at the same time, copy brushes between the windows.
Why would an author release their .map source if not to allow others to potentially re-use their brush work?
Sure, could be overkill for a simple rock.
For a more complicated structure like a multi-part door or a bridge structure, may be very worthwhile to copy and paste.
And in some map editors it is incredibly easy to do this.
Jesus Fucking Christ Baker
#8 posted by fuck off on 2018/06/15 11:44:41
You can have multiple maps open at the same time, copy brushes between the windows.
Why would an author release their .map source if not to allow others to potentially re-use their brush work?
No, this is not in fact why authors release the .map source.
The idea is NOT to just open other people's maps and copy 'n' paste all their shit to make some retarded frankenstein clusterfuck of a map made up from other people's talent.
Remember when that one guy released czg's honey with a few textures changed around? Yeah, less of that shit please.
It's even worse when you suggest that the guy decompiles non-open source maps and copies that stuff.
The idea of including .map files is a relatively new thing in this community and it's to help others learn how to make their own stuff, not just grab what they can and shove it off as their own.
#9 posted by Baker on 2018/06/15 12:32:26
What conversation are you participating in where where the subject is no longer about prefabs (rocks, bridges, structures) and instead talking about Frankenmaps?
I think if someone released a map like that crummy honey map, it would receive negative feedback (and it did).
That being said, I would wonder how you would suggest that maps like e1m1rmx/e1m1quoth and Travail's DM2 remix were constructed as both of them predate the Quake map source release. The end results of those maps were awesome.
I think people can tell the difference between shitty maps and great maps.
/I'm glad you are enjoying blowing off some steam. Angry posts are awesome! And they are less common than they should be.
#10 posted by metlslime
on 2018/06/15 20:13:12
Sharing map sources been a thing for at least 15 years, here's a thread from 2003: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=5725
And a few years later it was a regular practice for some people: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60094
#11 posted by Therektafire on 2018/06/15 22:13:42
"IMO copying and pasting from other's maps is not making maps"
Well, I don't want to copy and paste people's *whole* maps, just small static props. I *do* feel like I have enough know how with brush drawing and face/edge/vertex manipulation to make most of these things, but the thing is I don't have much time to map each day so I need to divide my time between either A) making those props or B) making a functional map that's reasonably fun to play and nice to look at in a reasonable amount of time. And I would much rather do the 2nd than the 1st which is why I was wondering if there were any packs that had these things, I don't want to copy and paste people's whole maps, I agree that is pretty stupid and bad.
The kind of models I wanted to have are definitely of the more complex kind, like vehicles or foliage. I can easily make rocks (in fact the first area of my map has several different kinds of those :D I had an issue with them where I forgot to make them func_detail's and jammed a pile of them in one place which caused the map to take so long to compile I just gave up on that compilation lol)
You misunderstand me. I didn't type "whole maps" anywhere. I meant brushwork and the like.
As far as time management, what's the rush? There are ppl with full time jobs and families who make maps when they can. They aren't using prefabs to make those maps.
Anyway as I said before prefabs used to be a thing (because some editors let you save anything as a prefab) but not as much any more. Maybe there are some brush based prefabs out there for GoldSrc you could bring into a Quake map?
#13 posted by mankrip
on 2018/06/16 03:05:47
For foliage, use MDL with alphamasked textures.
There aren't any minimally good urban civilian vehicles in any custom Quake maps, so you'd have to create your own anyway. AD has some cool military vehicles though.
BSP prefabs can save HUGE amounts of time if the mapper is a perfectionist. Imagine aligning all the textures of complex shapes to ensure that their textures will be smoothly filtered across the edges — this shit can be time expensive as hell.
The time saved on small details could then be spent on creating larger structures and polishing the map as a whole.
That Prefab Warehouse website is amazing, too bad it's dead. An active catalog similar to that would be incredibly helpful.
The Opinions Expressed Herein Are The Author's Own Etc.
I realise I'm a little late to the party, but I just want to state my (pretty strong) feelings on the issue; not hoping to convince anyone and I also realise others see things differently.
I'm basically with dumptruck_ds on this one, and -- though it may be a bit harshly/emotionally phrased -- share the basic sentiments of post #8 (though I don't recall the specific map the post mentions).
I also feel that map sources are there to be studied and learnt from, but treated with respect -- which means not abusing the spirit of sharing and generosity by grabbing someone else's hard work simply because you can.
Sure, creating brushwork takes time, proper texture alignment takes time and learning how to do both well takes time, but that's all part of the art of mapping. For a novice mapper to take something like the AD vehicles (which are some of the highlights of the pack because they are the result of the kind of brushwork and texturing skills that requires both talent and years of practice to hone) and paste it into their own beginner map strikes me as at best a form of cheating (and at worst stealing or plagiarism, if done without the mapper's permission and/or without crediting them). I love Quake maps, but I'm interested in what people have created themselves, and not what they've simply taken from others.
Even in cases where mappers say things like "I don't care" or "licences are pointless", it often seems to me to be more a matter of resignation or cynicism about the fact that you can't ultimately prevent people from being arseholes and stealing your work. But one can at least signal that this kind of thing is not ok -- as opposed to condoning or actively encouraging it. This applies especially to decompiling and then lifting brushwork, which I find completely indefensible: just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.
I also feel compelled to react to this part of post #9:
"That being said, I would wonder how you would suggest that maps like e1m1rmx/e1m1quoth and Travail's DM2 remix were constructed as both of them predate the Quake map source release. The end results of those maps were awesome."
Irrespective of the fact that I very strongly disagree with Baker's position, this argument doesn't work at all, and I'm a little surprised no-one else has mentioned this. The implication here seems to be that a map like e1m1rmx -- a from-scratch remake of e1m1, with obviously entirely new and original brushwork -- could not have been created without decompiling and lifting brushwork from e1m1. Surely this is patently false.
Again, I understand that others have different views on the matter, but this is how I feel and wanted to get it off my chest.
#15 posted by mankrip
on 2018/06/18 04:29:57
This kind of drama is another reason why a dedicated prefab catalog is important: The purpose of prefabs is to be copied & pasted, the purpose of map sources is not.
Just so everyone knows Therektafire and I and on very good terms on Discord. If I sounded rude in my post I apologize to everyone here for my tone. And especially to Therektafire.
#17 posted by anonymous user on 2018/06/18 09:48:13
If you're transplanting any kind of prefab vehicle into quake it's going to look retarded and you'd be better off building it with minecraft squares. Same goes for anything else that isn't simple vegetation or clutter.
Code-men, we don't need your optimisation here.
Pretty Obvious Stuff Imo
#18 posted by Kinn
on 2018/06/18 10:54:21
Some quality bum-roasting going on here.
I think it should be pretty blinking obvious that lifting stuff from someone else's map without their permission is bad, both morally and artistically, and I don't know why this is a such a debate. I remember back in the day, when people wrote map readmes that all kinda followed the same format, they had a line like:
"You may use this map as a base for your own work as long as you credit me bla bla bla".
or conversely "You may not use this map as a base...."
I think the rule of thumb should be: if you want to use someone else's brushwork, check the reeadme. If nothing there, and you still want to use it, try to contact the author. If you can't get a "yeah sure", then don't do it!
#19 posted by huuh on 2018/06/18 11:26:14
There may be prefabs around but they're uncommon and I'm unaware of any updated resource. Quake mappers usually build from scratch and occasionally (if they're feeling generous) release the map source for others to learn (but NOT copy) from.
If you don't have time to learn how to map then maybe you shouldn't be mapping. Perhaps you could use the time instead to create those prefabs yourself? You could be the one to make them commonplace.
Consider that OP may be from other games where the 'editors' are simply drag-&-drop affairs with actual level design being non-existent (eg. doom snapmap). Or maybe the brushwork possibilities are so rudimentary that every area is just a box which you fill with monsters.
The right thing to do would be to educate OP that plagiarism/drag-&-drop/copy-pasting is not the answer to avoiding "time consuming" brushwork.
#20 posted by mafon2
on 2018/06/18 16:02:55
I miss prefabs, 'cause I like to build stuff from brushes. Must I say that it speeds up the process significantly? A nice collection of pre-made stuff (stairs, caves, door frames, platforms, lamps and e.t.c.) is a crutch I'd loved to lean.
The editor I'm currently using don't support prefabs (like really!), don't know about the others.
#21 posted by mankrip
on 2018/06/18 17:31:22
18: nailed it.
20: It would actually be nice to have a list of the most needed prefabs. I don't do actual level design yet, but sometimes I brush out some stuff to study how to do BSP environmental art, and maybe I could contribute some.
I don't think a whole cave would fit into the purpose of prefabs, though. IMO, prefabs shouldn't influence the layout of the map.
#22 posted by Redfield
on 2018/06/18 17:38:35
Seriously why not just go and do something else?
I'm teaching my cat how to use trenchbroom, and as soon as she figures out how to use the compiler you will see a map made by a cat.
Brush prefabs? Why even map for Quake at all. If you don't want to spend any time on it its going to look like sh*t even with your prefabs. Laying brushes can be done by anyone dragged off the street.
3D models is a different story. You have to learn entirely new software, and it can be exceedingly complex to make the model. Using other peoples .mdls for trees and vehicles, etc. Just reference the author and get permission if necessary.
Seriously brush prefabs, just go jump into a lake for crying out loud.
#23 posted by mfx
on 2018/06/18 17:49:03
When starting a new map, usually the first thing to decide on is which texture theme to use. Easy, choose a set.
THEN start making prefabs, like arches, plats, doors, elaborate pillars, pipes, rotators and so on.
Save those prefabs along with your actual map in the .map itself, so you can access them while mapping and you dont have to switch to another window while doing the c&p, rotate and placing.
Works great in every editor.
Rockwork brushes are another topic, one where your skill is challenged at first i admit, but once you get the knack of it, it's fun to do on the fly.
Study provided .map files, dont just copy them.
/my 2 cents
Prefabs - Convenience
#24 posted by Qmaster
on 2018/06/18 18:57:54
There are a few instances where prefabs are quite useful.
• Stock ID1 features. E.g. the zigzag door in base maps or other constructions such as slipgates.
•Arches using any of the arch textures.
•Breakable AD bookshelves.
•Breakables in general (crates e.g.).
•Anything remotely complex that you've made yourself, that took forever, and that you don't feel like doing again but still want to uae in multiple maps.
For the first examples, you can copy and paste straight out of the original ID1 maps which are freely available: https://rome.ro/news/2016/2/14/quake-map-sources-released
For arches, such as Kell arches or the skull arches I recommend making them yourself. Many times I've gone to copy an arch out only to find it was too chunky and made them myself to make them a little smoother. I have a prefab file around here somewhere with all the arches and texture specific brushsets in it...
Breakables, you can copy and paste out some generic breakables from the AD maps, such as crates, windows, and the like or the fancier bookshelves (Credits credits in your readme!!).
In the end, make your own prefab file and store what you think you'll want later. I have arches, crates, cave tri-soup, bookshelves and a few other odds and ends in mine.
#25 posted by vaf
on 2018/06/20 16:05:52
There should be a middle ground in copying and pasting stuff from other maps. Obviously you shouldn't copy objects that are unique to certain maps and are clearly result of a very creative and hard process(e.g. the portal from Kell's func_mapjam9 map). But it makes little sense to make common arches, windows, crates and doors from zero because even their textures are optimized for a specific shape. One could argue that it's important to learn how to make them (and it is), but the same could be said for textures; there are plenty of free image editing tools, why are we reusing other people's works?