News | Forum | People | FAQ | Links | Search | Register | Log in
How Hard Is Too Hard?
What balance of level difficultly should be present in a well designed Quake map?

Should mappers gear singleplayer maps played in 'normal' skill play as easy/hard as id's original maps? Or have we reached a point where everyone is a great Quake player?

Whose opinion should take preferance? The Mapper's love of 'tricking' or 'beating' the player? Or the Player's goal of defeating the map? Are mapper's who skillfully provide challenge to player's better? Or would you rather maps be walks in the park with action and fun and some simple skills? Is there a perfect mixture of the two worlds?

Discuss. [i](c) Shambler[/i]
First | Previous | Next | Last
^ Nice Posts Kell 
(all I have to say right now :D) 
The map is #3 in the project order of what I plan to get to, I'll keep your request in mind if I decide not to develop it further. 
Yeah, Basically What Kell Said. 
if i have 1 comment [you may have noticed i dont go for long posts] it would be:

Hard SHOULD be hard, i mean a real challenge. Insomnia is a classic example of this beimg implemented correctly.

This links to the related idea of playing maps more than once on hard skill, becuase even though you know whats coming in advance its still a challenge and hence enjoyable. 
I will definitely keep those notes by my side as I populate the entities in my current project. Very valuable. 
Man Are You Guys Ever Dorks 
a thread with a title like this, and no one has made any sex jokes yet? 
Dang, You're Right 
I feel like South Park's Butters right now on account of your remark, Tronyn. 
In That Case... 
It's too hard when the calluses split. The resultant sharp edges aren't pleasurable for either of you. 
Nightmare : Kell 
Just to clear up a small point in something you said earlier. On skill 3 the monsters don't fire twice as fast. If they have line of sight on you they will attack relentlessly until you're dead or they lose line of sight. They will not try to move closer (as they do on most skills), just attack attack ATTACK!

Also, they are much more deadly at close quarters since they will not go into their pain frames for an additional 5 seconds on top of any normal delay for the type of monster.

Also, vore balls move faster. On 0,1 and 2 they move slower than a running marine, on 3 they move faster so you can't just outrun them.

Um, I think that's all. :-)

Anyone told a stiffy joke yet? 
your knowledge is useful
didn't know about voreballs, but i had a suspicion ;) 
Hehe I Didnt Know All That 
i knew not to play on nightmare skill though :) 
i still say for the most part you cant try and make broad determinations for skill levels , all you can really do is try to make each skill level consistent throughout the level, and really just use your own skill level and method of playing as a guide. i did this in my map and in retrospect i think it turned out pretty well. my approach to it was that i made hard skill the skill level i would play on, normal just slightly intensive, and easy a relative cakewalk (again, for me) 
To Clarify 
this is not to say i didnt consider other players and how they would play my map, just that when developing the skill levels/combat i thought of how i would play it, what health i would need, etc, not what the invisible 'casual quake player' would

also, lets not forget beta-testing, this contributes to getting rid of alot of the minor/major inconsistencies in skill levels and its really the best step to negotiate between how they view the skill and what you (the mapper) think it should be like 
Impossible... too hard. 
Fat Controller LOL 
oh god! you're too good at that! 
Let's have some words of reason in this thread. And mass func_tag b0rkage, no doubt.


but I still had reports from people that they couldn't beat the map; even on easy skill setting!

Yeah but of course there's no way anyone should warn them that it could be a bit hard, the snivelling little sods, is there?? Let wade in unawares and suffer, eh!!


Scampie, your sm58_scampie was really hard there at the end. I had to run through the Spawns there after killing the Shamblers because I was out of nearly everything.

OMG, PUSSSSSY! Were you playing in some wanky custom engine that removed power-ups or something?? Run in, grab the Quad, get the Smablers fighting the spawn and then gib anything left over.


So if you fire up a quake map after playing lots of say q3, it takes a while to adjust.

Pah, if you're playing lots of Q3A, you deserve everything you get, including the likely loss of skills and brain cell deterioration.


I totally missed that thread the first time round. woops.

Wow, civil contrition from someone online. Don't worry it will never catch on.


but his treatment of the Quake skill divisions was characteristically egotistical of the little twat.

LOL, that sort of comment gives me a warm fuzzy feeling =).

gameplay where only a precisely timed maneuver coupled with killing of monsters in a precise order or the use of only one weapon against a given opponent is not only hard, it is boring. It requires that the player learn an exact sequence pre-determined by the mapper, and the interactive quality that all games are supposed to be about is ultimately the loser.

Words of wisdom indeed. Although, maybe there is a place for that as a very specific form of gameplay (if one is forewarned, of course).

Still, UWF wrote in his review, "I find the map challenging but sometimes frustrating (especially in terms of replay value). Make no mistake this is a difficult level which requires much patience and skill to complete, (and frequent saving as well)."

WTF, UWF highlighted the map's difficulty and warned people it might be tricky?!?! Holy shit that's a disgrace, actually reviewing the gameplay and providing information to potential players....lynch the fucker!!

P.S. Nice tab b0rkage Kell, especially over two posts =).


Hard SHOULD be hard

Well quite. And if Hard is hard, and someone playing on Hard finds it hard, then they might well end up commenting that it is indeed, hard. Not....hard to understand, even if common sense isn't one's first language.

Morfy & Von:

blah blah blah

I, on the other hand, did know all that :P. In fact there is the odd, rare possibility where a certain combat could be easier on nightmare due to monster's different combat tactics.

Oh actually, Morfy, are you sure the Voreballs are slower than a non-bunnying player on Easy-Hard, and not just the same speed?

Etc. Now let's see what the tags do. 
My Opinion 
Games before 2000:user maps shall be 1-level-more difficulty than original titles
Games after 2000:the same the best
Thank you. Fuck you. Go map =) 
Did as suggested, much better result, experiencing growth in me lower quarters. 
I Was Not Speaking From Experience 
#37, touche, good last word. 
My Halloween Map 
Hard and Normal skills did not differ nearly enough. I ran out of time but I'm happy enough with what went out. Still - I consider that a notable shortcoming.

Some good notes are posted here. Enough to make me think more about what I've done on a map that is almost done. 
How Hard Is Too Hard 
When you wake up with a boner and a full bladder and you can't aim the damn thing to piss downward, that is too hard. 
Solution Time 
handstands are your friends 
Piss Out Of The Window... 
...that's what I do. Not so good if your toilet window opens out onto a busy street, I suppose.


Normal player running speed = 320
skill 0-2 vore ball speed = 250
skill 3 vore ball speed = 350 
Tried it on waking up this morning and I only wound up pissing in my own face (for a change). I wont be trying that again as I already do too much to entertain my neighbors as it is. 
First | Previous | Next | Last
You must be logged in to post in this thread.
Website copyright © 2002-2024 John Fitzgibbons. All posts are copyright their respective authors.