|Posted by Scampie [126.96.36.199] on 2004/01/13 00:18:13|
|Well, I've put off releasing this too long already... Speedmap site isn't ready, but it's so damn close I tells ya!
Anyway... A new release! A massive pack of 4 Single Player Quake maps built in a single week! And don't let their seemingly quick build time fool you, these are some great maps!
There were 3 authors who finished maps for the event, Hrimfaxi (who also submitted an older map he had which fell under the rules), Leviathan, and Zwiffle! Good work guys!
Download the pack here:
(Note: Hrimfaxi's first map is now updated to be a full vis'd version so it'll run better)
I know you want to promote speedmapping/turtlemapping etc but these great maps is a bit misleading.
Anyway, some comments.
q1tm3_zwiffle - too dark. I couldnt see most the time, when there was some light it looked ok. Didnt really play it all the way through because of the darkness.
q1tm3_lev - had potential. Starting outside area and curvy corridor were well done. In between it was connected with too many boxy, plain corridors. Lighting wise, this was the opposite of zwiffle's map, almost fullbright. Playwise, ridiculous base horde combat with a single shotgun is not my idea of fun.
q1tm3_hrimfaxi - this looked very promising but it was way too slow. I know about the warning etc, but I hope this gets released with a full vis.
q1tm3_hrimfaxi2 - this is pretty decent, some spotty lighting lets it down though. Nice blast and looks ok.
Sorry if it sounded harsh, but I was expecting a bit better given some of the reactions in other threads to screens etc.
That Should Be
"calling" these great maps...
in the first sentence.
A Full Vis File
I've just uploaded a full vis version of q1tm3_hrimfaxi to this URL:
You should replase the one from the pack.
Maybe you should update the packfile Scrampie?
That should be "replace" as if you didn't know.
was hoping it'd get a proper release.
very nice hrim, good atmosphere and fun gameplay. A few visual bugs though like non solid pillars and some corrupted flickering mappage when viewed from far away. The dome is very cool. Good map!
bleh, I'll remember to harshly crique each map next time I write a news update. I enjoyed the maps and thought they were a good bit of fun.
Updated the q1tm3.zip to include Hrim's now fully vis'd map, thanks Hrimfaxi.
As for my own feelings on each map, Hrim's definatly stand out in the pack... I think I like the second's atmosphere best, plus it has some of the coolest areas ever built in a Quake map. Thin little trims and neat supports, great stuff that you don't normally see in 'proper' maps nowadays.
Lev's map was really well built, but I'm not sure if I like the very bright, almost flat light. It's subtle, but works alright in an idbase setting. It suffers a bit like the other maps, forcing a bit too much shotgun action with too many monsters.
Zwiffle's map was just plain great, except at the very start when you have to fight multiple deathknights with just a shotgun. I thought the lighting overall was some of the best in the pack with some nice shadows, but had too many spotty areas of fulldark the monsters got lost in.
I enjoyed playing the pack, and appland everyone who finished. You guys rock. I think we'll have to do another turtlemap sometime early summer, but make it themed in some way.
Hrimfaxi's maps were probably tied for best in this pack, both were reaaaalllyyy great. His first one was superb aside from the already mentioned wierd nonsolid pillar, some solids that clip each other's faces, and probably the huge slowdown in FPS in the middle areas. A couple giant rock pillars in the middle of the lava could've helped keep those frames high, provided they covered enough. His second map was almost as great, the only thing that pushed it down imo was I liked the first one's style.
Lev's was... interesting. I thought of it as a shooting gallery that shot back, but would have been nice with a lightning bolt cuz of all the cells I collected. WOuld've been a better secret than the armor.
If my map looks kinda dark, it probably is because I have my monitor set on 100% contrast/brightness, and it's pretty dark on my computer. I'll try and work on making my lighting better.
Shame on all of you who dropped out, scampie included >:(
Redefining Greatness To Unimaginably High Levels...
Pah, not only are these levels, as Scampie hinted at, "best maps ever made", but evidently the "best maps that will ever be made". Truly taking Quake level designing beyond art, to some meta-dimension where quality, space, and time have no meaning (hence such releases of quality in such a short space of time).
Hrimfaxi1 - I can't believe there was ever any problem vising this map, your respect for the limits of the Quake engine, meticulous attention to detail, and unparalled build quality surpass superlatives. With such a sense of proportion and scale, I doubt there's a pixel - or a pillar - out of place.
Hrimfaxi2 - Another masterpiece of consistency and universal quality. Truly if this map was any better, both in the sheer elegance of it's design and the spiritual enrichment of it's gameplay balance, the whole Quake scene might collapse under it's weight. Expect to get hired very soon, probably be Epic.
Lev - Truly the gameplay experience of the decade. At once revolutionary, evolutionary, and yet deceptively simple, I hardly believe no-one has thought of it before. Yet if they have, they haven't dared to execute it with such finesse in a map of such enviromental richness, so you get all the glory you deserve.
Zwiffle - Lucky I had some shades to hand as I was nearly overwhelmed by the luxurious and vivid lighting in this map. Acentuating the architecture to a level of richness I didn't think was possible, Doom3's lighting will seem a poor comparison I'm sure. Thankfully finding those monumentally interesting secrets gave my brain some respite from the sheer glory of the design.
Shambler does it again!
Mm.. Thanks For The Maps!
My favourite was definitely Hrimfaxi's first map. The lava room and the dome were very nice big designs. My only complaint is the ending.. It should've been a LOT more grand in enemy amount and hall/place size.
I also made a 0:19 easy run for it :)
Hrim's other map was also good. Nice interconnectivity and some branching at first, and well placed ogres. But the first large area looked a bit bland. The castle walls really should've been more strangely shaped, have windows, bars (with some other texture) etc. instead of mostly just straight wall.
Lev's map was way too monotonous, both in design and gameplay.
Zwiffle didn't have any impressive rooms either, but the gameplay was good with enough ammo, variety and toughness. Though almost all the time one could just run away from battles. It was fun to play anyway.
You're a god. Release a full sized map/episode soon :D
Lev, why'd you have to go and ruin your map with such shite gameplay? I ended up using god/impulse 9 after the first room and even then it wasn't remotely interesting.. just packet overflow hell. The map itself wasn't bad though, decent enough architecture & layout... lighting could've used some work but it wasn't a bad attempt overall. The main area at the beginning definitely had potential.
Zwiffle's.. spoilt by the lighting. If it were brighter I'd have enjoyed it alot more. Darkness is good when used sparingly but it was a little too abundant here. It was well built though and the gameplay nicely executed.
Only thing I can fault with Hrim's is that the first one needed to have some kind of visblock between the main area and the outdoor bit with the caged ceiling. Other than that I thoroughly enjoyed playing both of them and can't offer much critique unfortunately... both very unique... i salute thou
Criticism Is Funny
isn't it funny that the harshest critics are always the people who never put the time and effort into creating maps of their own for other people to rant on?
as for myself, i have to wait till later to play these maps, but these guys nearly always put out maps that i can only dream about making myself
Hrimfaxi's 2 maps: unplayable. Even in the updated VIS'd one, had greyouts. Partially my fault - 150MHz, 96MB RAM, 2MB vid... I noclip'd through them both a bit and saw some interesting architecture, but really couldn't play through these without a wall of grey interrupting - or the slideshow.
Lev's: died once I just opened one of the doors after the BARRAGE of grunts and enforcers in the silver key room. All with the pea shooter. Bah.
Zwiffles: Way too dark, couldn't see anything until the ogre stuffed a grenade down my throat... some texture palette problems on the floor tex. Darkness could be my monitor, or it may not be.
I can't really say much about these - half was unplayable, one made me it's bitch, the other I was blind.
what? only mappers are allowed to have an opinion now?
Most of the comments have been pretty well deserved, none of these maps could ever stand on their own... but that's how Turtlemaps go. There really isn't a lot of time to be spent refining gameplay, or making everything perfect, and that's reflected in many of the critisms. And the authors are big boys, they can handle a bit of kicking around. They'll learn plenty from the harsh bits here, and I know all of them enjoyed creating the maps.
Hrimfaxi Is The Piper
Hrimfaxi's maps were both really good, visually and gameplay-wise. Weapons were great, but maybe ammo was a bit too abundant in the 1st map. Lighting around the dome area in the 1st and the main bridge area in the 2nd felt very eerie.
The dome was almost Myst-like in appearance, great cross-over. Only two technical niggles, there were many non-filled bsp areas in the 1st map, probably contributing to the long vis-time. In the 2nd map you could get stuck beneath one of the elevators.
Leviathan's map had me resort to god-mode. I don't do that very often, but fighting 200 monsters with no armor and just a shotgun was just extremely frustrating. The gameplay was really unbalanced and unfair. Too bad, because the map looked pretty good, curves and the rocks outside.
Zwiffle's had pretty interesting looks and not too shabby gameplay (although very repetitive with only shotgun for far too long), but lighting was ridiculously dark. A general tip on item placement; please don't put ammo or health in the middle of the movement area, especially not in places where you can't avoid picking them up. The map was also not sealed properly.
Some good and some not so good, but thanks to all for contributing.
One Thing I'd Like To Say...
in hrimfaxi2, i really like the way the "find three buttons" task makes you explore. Once you've found them, you also know where the gold and silver key doors are, which means later when you get the keys, you know where to go. The initial nonlinearity gives the player a chance to learn where everything is, so they won't get confused later each time a new path opens.
Where is my map not sealed properly? I'm almost sure I made all the brushes air tight and I never got any compile errors! Argh I hate missing these things!
Congrats On The Great Maps
All of the maps were great fun to play and all well built maps! Both of hrimfaxi's levels could have fooled me for full SPQ levels... The gameplay in Leviathan's level will haunt my dreams for a good year to come. Hope to see more colaborations like this! I'll surely give a shot at the next one.
If you load your map into an engine and noclip outside, you'll notice that you can't look inside; it's all black. This is because the outside of the map isn't filled (removed) properly by qbsp, thus making it more difficult for all tools and the engine.
If you now turn all fullbright in the console, you'll see that the entire outside is visible with textures and all, a bit like how it looks in the editor.
This is not the way it should look in a sealed map, then the outside is removed by qbsp and neither tools nor engine have to worry about it. Load up the standard iD start map and noclip outside and you'll see what I mean.
The reason why you haven't got any leak warnings from the compiler is probably because you're not using any of my compilers found at http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k
. Older compilers have a lot of bugs in the leak handling and will just make it more difficult for you to troubleshoot your map.
just one question to Lev: have you played your map yourself ?
Truly the gameplay experience of the decade.
that's very wierd. I didn't have that problem on an older (or is younger? any case earlier) version of the map. I noclipped outside and everything was fine, I even took some screenshots of it. I don't know why it messed up this time.
Nitin: The two areas that did look good i spent a lot of time on. I was concerned about finishing it on time, so i dumbed down everything else. Regarding gameplay, i should have included the double-barrelled shotgun, i don't know why i didn't. For lighting, i had individually lighted everything, but i think i used a too high minlight value when eliminating dark spots. Although it is good to hear that people like the areas that i spend time on, this bodes well for future releases.
Scampie: I think the many criticisms about my gameplay will figure into future maps, i should refine my gameplay style a bit. Thanks for the build compliments.
Zwiffle: The lightning gun would have been a good pickup, i just thought it would un-balance the gameplay. I guess i was wrong.
Xen: I thought that it would make the map challenging.
Aguire: That's where beta-testing would have come in useful, had i the time.
Mapist: Yeah, i played the map through all of its incarnations, adding monsters each time. I wanted to make something really challenging. I myself didn't go below 50 health on any of my run-throughs, but a mapper's own work is always easier, so i thought by adding in all the health that it would balance out. Didn't work out like i planned though.
Thanks for the comments everyone.
It seemed like you'd just thrown in excessive monsters to annoy people. Trust me... quantity isn't a substitute for quality in that department. Better positioning is the key... giving it variety; at the moment it's quite boring to play, very repetetive without any highs & lows, or signs of progression. And it's possible for a map to be TOO hard, where people resort to cheating too easily... which happened here. There was some fairly good positioning in the main crate area which proved a challenge, but there was just far too much horde combat in between, which was both tiresome and hard on the engine. Hope you revise a little on gameplay techniques & improve for next time :-)
I'd suggest that you check out the wall behind/around the exit teleporter. It's possible to shoot a rocket right through it from certain angles and this probably makes the map leak. The reason why you didn't get any leak warning remains.
OK I think what may have happened was that I made the end portal a little too big. The way the giant circle arch thing is built, the end portal leaks out into the void, and the arch's top and bottom are really thin. But, when I tried to fix it, I get an Error 17: Mixed face content in leafnode or something along those lines, so I'm stumped how to fix it. But I guess there's really no worry besides trying to make sealed properly, because it's already been released so...
Big Hrmph For Lev
This is the first Base level to stump me in my usual approach to fighting base levels, that is using the axe exclusively. After a half dozen tries I am putting it aside -- For Now --
Zwiffle, Hrimfaxi, sorry I have been too distracted by the above situation to play your levels as of yet, but I will get to them soon.
Dying at the hands of Enforcers ~~ I am not a happy camper. My ego needs satiation, I say!
really nice maps dudes!
entertaining and all!
here i prepared a little gift for you, my first run demos in all the maps!
i managed not to die during recording, considering these are my first runs through the maps.
ps, oh and i played on skill 1
also had those sparklies (from not using t-junc option) which was kind of annoying.
lev - like I said, there was potential but yeah I would look at changing your gameplay style if this is what you normally do. I havent played any of your other speedmaps so cant say.
for all the comments! Not only the good things but also the criticism.
Looks like I'm going from the lowest unworthy mapper to a god 8-) That's quite a way in one day!
The truth will be somewhere in between - I think!
Anyway I really had fun building my level and I'm sure that lev and zwiffle had the same.
(Nice maps from both of you btw)
It looks like we at least entertained a bunch of you and that's good.
I have listen to your comments and the constructive critism you have been given, and will try to use it to to build some better maps in the future.
When I had played the 4 levels in the pack it struck me that this could be an extension of the last four weeks of the speedmapping sessions. What we build was almost 4 maps from each theme in quake.
leviathan a base, I build medieval and rune and zwiffle made what could be the dark and grim long corridors of the elder world.
As I said it was fun and I'm certain that I will be ready to try again if Scrampie makes another turtelmap week in the future. I hope even more mappers will participate so we can make a bigger and better pack.
Thank you Vondur for the demos it was nice to see how other played the maps!
That's wierd too, because I did use -tjunc when I compiled it. Maybe DuBSP's -tjunc doesn't work or something, but I can't really tell if the sparkles are a problem or not because I don't get them in TeleJano.
Thanks for the demo Vondur!
are there because the map leaks, then tjunction calculations aren't done. I've now sealed the map and thereby reduced the # numportals from 12k to 4k and made a full vis/light. The original had only fast vis/light.
With brighter lightning, this map looks very good.
any chance of me having it?
If Zwiffle Permits
but I believe he's got enough information to make a new version already that he could release if he wants to. I'd prefer that since it's his map.
Zwiffle: What do you want to do?
I've got the lighting done, but I don't wanna mess around with leak problem (i'm tired of the map) but since you sealed the map and re-lit it feel free to distribute it as you see fit.
Would it be OK for me to send you my modified version of q1tm3_zwiffle so you can host it along with the original (i.e. not replacing it)?
just email it to me, firstname.lastname@example.org
can also be caused by conflicts in the UV coordinates of the two adjacent brushes when they are textured on facing sides )ones not meant to be seen). Caulking solves this in Q3. I don't know what the Quake I solution for this would be but I have never heard it mentioned as an option in a Quake I forum.
are you talking about z-fighting? Otherwise i don't really understand.
sparklies can at times result from z-fighting. This article does a good job of explaining the problem.
But That's Not Really The Same Thing.
they look sparkly, but are not tjunc sparklies. :)
that article is complete bullshit too... z-fighting doesn't occur when brushes join like that. he thrashs csg-hollow, and then makes even WORSE brushwork. and caulking the outside of brushes? whoever wrote this 'tutorial' has absolutly no understanding of bsp or how to map and should be taken out back behind the chemical sheds and shot.
so, bsp tools do the same thing in q3 engine games as they do for q1, right? they remove all the outside faces? (i'm guessing that's what some of the "bullshit" was refering too)
pardon the ignorance, i've never touched q3 engine mapping. :D
should have added: what _is_ caulking for? i've always seen it as sort of redundant, because faces the player can't see are going to be facing the other way anyway (the normals are pointing away from the player) so thye wouldn't be drawn anyway.
That Misleading Bastard
Scamp, you can borrow my shotgun for that surgical strike. I have had that dumb idea in the back of my head for sometime, even though it contradicted what I have come across in the better forums moderated by the likes of Ydnar. I apoligize for this -- I have a few recommendations for clearing this up though -- ones that shouldn't land us on death row any way.
Here is a forum with the same discussion and some of the same misunderstandings that had to be cleared up.
and this appears to be a better tutorial for those that need it. http://fps.brainerd.net/sparklestut.htm
Caulk And Q3, Moh, And Quake.
caulk can be used for:
-faces you'll never see becuase they are always facing away, so that they don't waste lightmaps or space in memory/on disk (even though as you say, if they are facing away they won't be rendered.)
In quake you can't do this (though there's a "skip" texture that Tyrann or someone created which a special utility can remove.)
-faces that you never see becuase they are behind a curve patch or some detail brushes. They need to be there becuase curves and detail don't seal the bsp hull. But if they are drawn, they not only waste memory and lightmaps, but they also eat fillrate and can cause z-fighting if the patch or detail faces are co-planar or nearly so.
Quake doesn't need this becuase it doesn't have detail or bezier patches. Though there are often faces inside door frames or behind bmodels that you never need to see, these are so few in most quake maps that it doesn't matter much.
-faces on detail brushes that you don't need, but are there becuase a brush has to be complete even if all you wanted was one face to be drawn. This is less of a reason in q3 becuase detail brushes are CSGed together, but in MoH it's essential, becuase they are not.
Quake doesn't have detail brushes and its CSG is much more strict, so there is never a problem of extra faces or overlapping faces or anything like that. (except sometimes with bmodels overlapping world geometry, but that can be avoided easily by the mapper.)
is it up yet?
It Probably Would
have been if I had tested the map more carefully before sending it off. Those nasty clipping errors ...
Anyway, Scampie's got a fixed version now and if he doesn't discover anything fatal, it should hopefully come up pretty soon.
heh, you're lucky I noticed it... first time I ran into it, there was a knight standing at the same point, so I thought I was running into that and not a clip brush sealing the silver key room off :D
I'll put it up when I get home in about 2 hours.
q1tm3_zwiffle updated by aguiRe map, rename the old file if you want to compare/keep the original as this has the same filename.
thanks for the good explanation! i hadn't thought of those other instances where caulk would be useful.
played the modified lighted version. I have to say, this map was the most fun gameplay wise in the whole pack. Nice job!
Visuals werent bad either, now that I could actually see. Texturing was pretty cool, perhaps the red and blue floor tiles were a bit too gawdy but overll pretty solid. Nice touches with the spikes on the roofs. IMHO, the onyx bit at the end was the coolest.
Now go and make a proper map, if you can kep the gameplay as fun and improve your lighting, it'd be well worth playing.
I can't believe I forgot to take the piss out of the end of Zwiffle's map. Actually I think that's because I can't believe I actually played that entirely random bit of anti-themed nonsense at the end, I'm sure I hallucinated it in a fit of dizzines/flatulence (delete as applicable) brought on by playing all 4 turdle maps in one go.
Lev's Onslaught Map
can be quite fun if you just add the DBS, GL and some 20 rockets to the player's inventory at startup. Plus lower the minlight a bit.
It would probably also gain a lot from getting rid of many of the "200" lights and replacing them with ambient sunlight.
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