The new items:

- Warhammer I actually really like. I'm a fucking boring conservative player and I love beating Knights and Vorelings to death without wasting ammo. Mappers, put this in every map that has enemies in it, please.

- Plasma Gun is very nicely implemented, though after playing through all the maps I've still not got a clear idea of how good it is compared to the LG. :/ Probably because it uses the kind of ammo you want to conserve the most...

- Cross of Deflection and Trinity are generally nice too, and the only thing I could really fault them on is that, unless you've read the readme, it's almost totally unclear what they do. Still, considering that people are going to get used to seeing them and using them that shouldn't be a prob.

Anyhow, while trying out the new content I also noticed a few bugs and some other things that look like they could potentially be bugs. I'm pretty sure these are all fully-recreatable and not just me ballsing up, so in case you don't know about some of this stuff already, have at the info:

- A problem crops up if you trigger-spawn a monster_tarbaby; the game tries to load up the zombie's model and animation for the monster instead of its own. If there's a zombie in the map this will produce a fully functional bouncing, exploding zombie, but if not the game'll abort due to the model not being precached.

- The "spawndelay" key (not the "delay spawn" spawnflag) doesn't seem to work for Droles.

- The corpse_lynched1 and corpse_lynched2 entities appear to load up exactly the same skin (with marine combat gear on the body).

- The trigger_command entity currently centreprints its "message" value when it fires its targets - like the trigger_multiple / _once / _secret entities would - as well as entering that text as a console command.

- The tutorial lists a new "onlymonster" key for trigger_teleports, and the def files list a "monsteronly" key, but neither of those keys seem to be working.

- The hipnotic trigger_damagethreshold entity is mentioned in the tutorial, but doesn't seem to be in the Quoth progs (engine gives a "no spawn function for..." message if you try to use one). On the other hand, the hipnotic play_sound entity does seem to be in the progs, but isn't mentioned in the tutorial (not that it's very different from play_sound_trigered...)

- Not sure if this is actually a bug, but Rocketeers don't seem to make a noise when they spot the player.

- The tutorial mentions that the info_effect_pulse and trap_lightning_triggered entities can be aimed with either the angle or mangle keys, but as far as I could tell a mangle value doesn't work for either of them. (Not sure if that's strictly a bug either.)

- If you load up a saved game while carrying a Cross of Deflection or Trinity, the "screen glow" effect will be carried over and stay on permanently.

- I noticed a couple of typos while working through the tutorial, too: the worldspawn key "lose_items" should really be "reset items", and "monster_grunt_rocket" should really be "monster_army_rocket". Not a big deal considering that you're supplying editor def files, though. Oh, and you didn't mention that a func_hordespawn can spawn items as well as monsters. :P Blatantly not what it was designed for, but I *think* it's the only way you can trigger-spawn an item in the current Quoth progs, so if that's the case it might be worth mentioning if you update that at any point.

Gah, I hate reporting bugs, it makes you sound so damn picky. Overall this is excellent stuff and a really high-quality wodge of new content; keep up the good work. 

I.W. A big THANKS for all those bug reports!

sadly, most of them are entirely my fault due to insufficient testing. some of the things were rushed at the end (trigger_damagethreshold for example-- none of our maps used it, and it got added (or didn't as the case seems to be) right near the end).

monster_tarzombie, again, this is my fault. the spawn code is a copy paste with small changes for each monster. i must have forgotten to change the model name in the tarbaby's spawning code, and since none of us used it, no one noticed. :\
sort of the same situation with spawndelay not working for droles, i must have forgot to add that line of code to them.

for trigger_command, again, a rather large blunder on my part. i failed to recall that the message key will be used in the trigger code (which the trigger_command goes through). this problem is enough to make it useless atm, unless you're willing to put up with loads of crap on the screen. (you can still use info_commands + trigger_once, but trigger_command was supposed to replace that :S)

the correct key is "monstersonly" (s on monster)

no sight sound on rocketeers is another blatant blunder on my part.

as for the screen glow effect... i'll have to look into this. the main problem is that this is a major hack. the quake engine's glows are normally handled via builtin (non configurable) effects. to get different colours, it was necessary to abuse the v_cshift console command. i thought i had added sufficient checks at different parts of the code to reset back to clear, but i must have missed one.

*sigh* aren't i the smart one? go me... :S 

Excellent, thanks for the bug report. Not sure what form the solution will take; we could release a pak1 with only bigfixes, but I'm not sure that's ideal.
I shall confer with the above co-conspirator ¬_¬



We need a Quoth icon! ... and a quake 4 one, I suppose.

Best. Feedback. Evar. 

Sounds like fun :)

I still haven't played quoth enough :/ 

... in the rocket grunt's AI. When it is too close to the player, the monster don't shoot (maybe just trying to avoid to blow itself), so it just walks on you. Since it has a secondary missile attack, would be just the case of switching to it, or making it not standing too close.

Anyway, a great job, guys. Congrats. Looking forward for the next paks... 

more just an aspect of the monster.

it has no close range attacks, and kell and i felt that such a low level monster didn't deserve any fancy AI, and opted for having it powerless at melee range. 

Anyhow, when I was commenting on all the new content I forgot to comment on the, er, actual maps, so:

- red777 had nice levels of interconnectiveness and generally had the feel of a polished map in an established theme. Trying to work out how the layout fitted together was kind of like looking at one of those Escher images with all the stairs and doorways, it had that very "busy" look about it. Gameplay felt consistently solid, and more secrets than a small Q1 episode gave it some nice exploration value and lastability, too.

As for things that could maybe have been better... I thought the central plaza area might have been more impressive if done on a larger scale, as in the form it's in it seems slightly cramped for a focal, outside hub area. And of course, big outside areas just look cool, though I'm not sure how much it was already pushing the r_speeds as it was (it did look nice and visually complex).

- ne_marb built up a pretty fresh and unique theme with its nice texture / arcitecture / skybox choices. Managed to successfully remind you of classic Doom maps while the length and scale of the whole thing made it right at home alongside other modern Q1 maps. Generally showcased the new content well (this was the first Quoth map I played), and ammo and health always seemed well-balanced which made for some fun slaughtering. All the intricate, clanking machinery and the serene view from the top of the structure really reminded me of the Myst series, of all things, and added to the unique feel.

Things that could possibly have been better...? Although each individual room was nice, the overall layout of the map seemed a bit on the simple side, with each offshoot-area being fairly linear until you reached the key / switch and headed back; would possibly have been cooler if each pair of offshoot areas (the two to the right and the two to the left) interconnected in some clever way, and / or if the central area was asymmetrical.

- ne_deadcity was a bit of a surprise after marb (I loaded it up expecting more ridiculous-sized epic-ness), but it was a fun small-scale map with a nice layout that showed off Plasma Gun gameplay well. Forcing the player to run the hell away from all those Zombies until they could work out where the explosives were was a fun plan, and there was enough movement space for it to work. The ending seemed to prove that although double-Gug combat can be unfair, single-Gug combat is pretty easy when you've got an SNG or PG: not sure what the ideal Gug balance would be at the moment.

BTW, Necros, one more bug: the spawndelay key doesn't seem to work on tarbabies at the moment either. Every other monster that can be trigger-spawned seems to work fine with it, though. 

This was a nostalgic experience. I've played tons of DooM wads and these maps, aside from the enemies, felt very DooMy. The layouts reminded me of how wad makers strived to make 3D looking levels with the restrictions imposed by DooM's inability to have a sector over a sector. Of coarse the 3 Quake maps didn't stick to this limit but the styling of the map and it's fairly 2D layout really captured the boxy and angular feel to most DooM maps where the most curvy thing were the curved stairways. Very nice lighting and progression, again, it felt very DooM-like in which each zone had it's own design and often progression was based on getting through a series of zones to open up new areas. These maps reminded me more of the better user wads then of the id maps since user wads were often much bigger then the ones that shipped with the game.

Okay, bug time. I confused myself after trapping myself in the area where you release the shaft locks. I took the elevator down and then hit the button at the bottom to raise the elevator to see if there was a secret. Elevator was DooM style, just a solid block. I moved on oblivious to the fact that the elevator button at the bottom was now blocked by the lift itself. After searching around for a way out, I ended up noclipping up the shaft.

Near the end of NE_marb and in ne_marb2, I couldn't change weapons. I don't know why but I would see a flash of the RL but then it would dissapear (a similar problem was in Red777). Is something wrong? I had to cheat to kill the last two gugs since the shotty was futile.

I loved DooM and these maps were a nostalgia trip. If it had Cacodemon's, Barons of Hell, Imps and the odd Lost Soul, it would have been DooM to me.

The non-DooMy parts with mechanisms and spinning brushes and craggy sticky out things were great too. You used enough of Quake to make it feel fresh but kept the DooM disguise convincing. And nice skybox too. 

about the bugs, i've heard a couple of people mention something up with the rocket launcher and weapon switching... i never personally noticed anything, but i'll definatly look into it.

also, re: getting stuck by the lift, that was really funny ;) i never considered that possibility, but i should have. :P 

...got me too, when I went back looking for the secrets. Underneath elevators is an auto-check when secrets aren't forthcoming. :P

Another elevator-related thing I noticed in that map, too: looking down the gaps at the sides of the really elaborate final elevator, I could see some teleporter fluid beneath it, but I didn't find a way to get back into that area (to go under the elevator) after the elevator raised. Was that a planned "way back up" that didn't need to be used in the end, or did I miss something there? 

that is for coop :)

because of the fact that the lift is a one way trip in SP, other players wouldn't be able to get up. underneath the lift, there's a teleporter which will bring other players up top. 

Should have thought of that, and in that case, I feel slightly silly: at first I thought that tele must have been the one secret area I was missing, and spent at least five minutes trying to find a way to get into it in single-player. DAMN YOU COOP MODE! 

See Post 107

FYI, I play Quoth with FitzQuake. That may or may not be a factor in the weapon glitch. 

i just read through the quoth mapping tutorial and must admit that my initial doubts were unfounded. the new or modified progs are very useful indeed and maybe i'll use them for a map i have in mind... 

I assume the wish is there so I'll try to get it done somewhen in the near future :) 

in quoth_tutorial.html#func_hordespawn

"spawnclassname + spawfunction" 

Found 13/14 secrets - not where's that 14th... 

This map should have been posted to the SM pack #104 (Secrets Map) ;P 

Great job. All my feedback is basically nitpicking. The gug skin doesn't quite meet with my taste, and same for the new grunt and enforcer skins. Bob doesn't fit in, IMO, but his crash animation rocks. All the other monsters are pretty thematically accurate and fun. Red777 and ne_marb are great; red777 is super marvy cool. Including e1m1quoth was nice.

I'm really, really eager to see Kell's next project. 

the newfound chapters:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=281268 

I'll make this quick, because I have to go use the bath right now (yes, I stink).

I really liked the vermis test map where there is a two-tiered platform surrounding a pit. However, I do agree that it could use some extra tactics (yes, like an old school shooter!) to make it more interesting.

In fact, I love how so many (predominantly Japanese) games put a lot of attention into boss monsters to make them interesting to fight. I hate 95% of FPS game boss monsters, because they are just the same stupid shit. It's either figure out some kind of crap puzzle, or just shoot it a lot whilst it performs the same crappy attack over and over. To overgeneralise, boss monsters in western games tend to look like an afterthought, whilst those in Japanese games look more like they have had a lot of time and effort put into them.

The only FPS I can think of with good bosses is Metroid Prime. That's it. Seriously. (Painkillers were ok I suppose) 

However, I do agree that it could use some extra tactics to make it more interesting.

Understood.
With our monsters, we tend to stick to the Q1 simplicity whereby monsters have 1 ranged + 1 melee attack. It's not an absolute of course; vores are so range-oriented they have no melee, and the knights' greatest weakness is that they must reach melee to make any attack at all. ( note that the fiends' leap is their equivelant of a ranged attack )

The Vermis is mostly there as a one-step up from Chthon and Shub. At least the vermis has a melee attack, and an unusual one at that. Both its attacks are such that they can be more influenced by map design than Chthon's hotrocks. It also isn't limited by a one-trick kill method that wouldn't stand up to repeated appearances. That's pretty much it.

Crafting a sophisticated boss is not out of the question, but does demand a lot of focus and testing. The servitor races would not permit me to elaborate on such development, but we have done more than consider the possibility. Ther vermis was intended to be the capstone combat to chapters. I still consider the vermis one of the most successful projects by necros and I; it took only 6 days from concept to completion, and another two days for external playtesting. The sort of boss you're describing was well beyond the time we had in the midst of the chapters project. 

It was amazing when it snatched and tossed you the first time (and when it did that to a fiend later too :P).

It's probably map design and playtesting that would have to be done carefully here.

Ie, not permanent cover that makes the gameplay just corner-wanking. 

Quoth is awesome, you have both done a fantastic job of making all the new stuff feel fresh yet very at home in the Quake environment. I am currently making a large map for Quoth (it's taken over from my more important portfolio boosting hldm2, because it's way more fun*) and although Quoth has a lot of awesome stuff, I am greedy and want more. Feel free to ignore me of course, but here are some suggestions:

exploding wall code
PLEASE! As I mentioned before somewhere, I have some modified Zer code which is very flexible and works well. We can currently use killtargetted func_walls, but it's not ideal.

extra shooters
I want to be able to fire cthon lava balls, and other monster missiles from shooters and have them aim at players (targetting within a specific angle threshold and perhaps varying targets in coop) or specific targets. It would also be nice to have them fire at set intervals, semi randomly, if the player is in sight/range or only on trigger. For my map, I only need the cthon lava ball, and I am going to try the hack in the "teaching an old progs.dat new tricks" thread, but a specific shooter would be nice.

gug modifications
I really like the gugs, but their eathquake attack really pisses me off. Even though it doesn't do a lot of damage, it just feels unfair. You might not like the idea of mapper configureable monster behaviour, but I would like the ability to set range, frequency and timing of the attack, as well as having flags for whether the gug does it only when he has seen the player within the last 30 seconds (i.e. the player could be hiding somewhere, or could have gone somewhere else in the map). Setting the frequency timer to 0 should disable the attack completely.

Having said that, I like the idea of the earthquake attack, it's just that at the moment it feels a bit cheap.

In addition, it would be nice to have an extra target that gugs can fire when they use their attack, as I would like to have scenery that breaks when they are using their attack.

bob as player helper drone
I mentioned this earlier on in the thread, as I actually though bob was intended to be a player helper drone powerup when I saw the pic. Although I am not personally making a base map, I think it would be fun to allow bob to work as a player helper.

In addition to having a separate player helper bob skin, he should have a power up animation for when the player finds and activates him, along with a power down anim for times when he might not be able to come with the player (trigger toggles power on/power off).


*HUGE RANT WARNING. Hammer is a total pile of shit. How Valve actually made it worse to use since 1.6 is beyond me. Aside from the easier to use camera controls and accelerated 3d view, the more recent changes to the interface are annoying (double click on a brush to get to visgroups...) and some of the HL2 specific stuff is so shit I can't understand how it has been made the way it has (displacement editing with an airbush only, stitching depends on brushes rather than displacement vertices...) Crashes MORE than wc1.6. Takes ages to load compared to WC 1.6, requires Steam, and HL2 takes forever to load. Why the fuck have the modelling tools not evolved AT ALL since wc1.6? What the hell is with that? Making maps with it is not much fun basically. I used to think WC was better than Radiant. However, Radiant has been hugely improved over the past 5 years or so, yet WC is almost the fucking same. WC editing is fine for simple games, such as Q1/2 (still using 1.6), but it is pretty hopeless as a tool for modern games imho. 

I forgot to add that the explosion hack seems to be a bit broken in quoth. The sound wasn't playing back earlier. I know there is a triggerable sound entity, but that's another ent, and more hassle to set up.

Since the explosion is a hack, maybe you could add some of the more useful hacks in as proper entities? (explosion basically).