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Q1SP Indiegogo Project
I have been thinking about this idea for some time now and I am curious to know what people think. Would anyone be interested in a professional quality funded Q1SP map by me? (Example - Zendar / Ivory)

Is there enough people interested? I assume a lot of people played my previous maps but did not comment so here's the chance, forum lurkers, what do you think?

I was thinking over a 6 week time frame with different donations getting different perks, like the chance to include your own idea of a secret in the map, access to the dev map files, vote on theme or map name?

Any thoughts?
I Would 
How much dough would have to come together for you to consider this viable? 
Mm 
The community seems quite small, kind of depends on what sort of income you're expecting.
I'd give $10 easily anyways for another Zendar like experience. 
Same 
 
Yeah 
$10 sounds like a reasonable sum to pay for a high quality map. 
Count Me In Sock. 
 
Yes 
cool idea. I'd be willing to put in $20-$30.

Curious, do you know how many downloads there were of Zendar? Spirit, do you keep track of download counts on quaddicted? 
I Have To Be Really Honest. 
I love your maps, they're brilliant, probably the best. Would I pay $10 for a single map? No.
Even though I can complete episode 1 of quake in less than 10 minutes and I think your map took me 30 minutes on the first try.

You released multiple maps last year. Each episode is 7 or 8 maps, I think I would $15-20 for a sock episode.

Get capnbubs to finish remaking the bloody quake monster models and I'll drop $30 on it.

Even if you made a whole episode that took less time to complete than my first run of Zendar I'd perceive the value to be higher. Maybe it's psychological?

Why not get 2-3 more mappers and make a whole new thing? Also, what are the legal ramifications for selling quake maps? 
I'll Chuck In Some Money 
Not for the maps you're gonna make, but for the maps you've already made. 
 
I was thinking if I can get 50 people interested paying 10 dollars each then that would be a good amount for the work involved.

@fifth, that is a shame you feel that way, but it is your choice. I would like to see if I can do a single high quality map project first. I want to make a map that people can replay several times, has proper route choices and gives players the chance to explore.

I have done freelance map projects before and the money I was paid was for the creation of the map source file. As far as legal ramifications, the funding will be for my artistic time, the map + source is released for free at the end just like before. The people that contribute to the project get a chance to be involved with the project. 
All Feedback Welcome 
sock logic: the people who disagree don't post because the thread is clearly not for them

I want to hear all views on this idea. If you don't agree with what I am suggesting then say so, I would prefer to hear feedback (good/bad) now. This is the reason for the thread, lets discuss it. 
 
You already proved you can make a single high quality map, several times over.

I don't feel too bad about what I said because I think it's purely a subjective standpoint. I'd literally pay more money for multiple maps that would take less time to complete than 1 giant map.

I'm just that crazy. 
This Is A Great Idea 
More maps, and the authors getting paid to create them.

I'd happily copy the idea, if I could get anywhere near the same interest as Sock's levels.

Have you tried posting on other FPS forums? It's a pretty small group here, even if you guess positively at an extra 50% lurkers. 
 
I agree with FifthElephant in that I would rather have a number of small maps than a large one. The point I want to make is that the exact same gameplay cut into small pieces and presented as multiple maps/an episode would be more valuable to me than one large map. Firstly this is a tactic salesmen use; giving you a list of stuff instead of one product, but secondly, I prefer my quake in chewable bites.

However, if you set up a thing like you described, I will be putting money into it, regardless of if it is one level or more. A sock map is still a sock map. :)

The sort of perks that would be attractive to me would be like, a name in a donator's list in a secret room, or getting to hand you a .map of a secret room to incorporate or the chance to beta test. 
Sock 
so what is the aim exactly? Another Zendar type map or someting a bit different? 
Don't Change The Transaction Type From Social To Monetary 
Hobbyist mappers create maps for any of the following reasons: intrinsic pleasure, notoriety, sharing, and building a portfolio.

Adding money in to the mix will make your map(s) a different kind of thing: a monetary transaction.

$500 is a lot of cash, but it's also nowhere close to what you'd make as a salaried mapper for a modern game.

OTOH, more Q1SP is always a good thing... 
Sock's Maps Are A Different Kind Of Thing... 
And I would gladly contribute something for them :) 
 
I'd pay for an episode. Not sure about a single map, probably $10 max I guess. As a comparison, I paid $15 for l4d2, got a full game, all the dlc's, and access to 100s of high quality custom campaigns for it. There's 100s of hours of content.

But for an entire q1 episode, $500 isn't much when you consider the hours you'd have to put into it. Could always try kickstarter type websites, though I think you'd need to come up with something more unique for the masses than another standard map.

The main reason for paying from end users perspective is it makes you obligated to finish it. 
I Would Be Willing To Pay For A Sock Episode Too 
I am in China, and my salary is not very high. But I love Quake, and sock's maps are always of good quality. So I think I would be willing to pay around $5~$10 for a sock episode. But please make them work with Darkplaces! 
 
Interesting.

Just considering the idea in a vacuum, there are several mappers with track records (including sock) that I'd tip a few bucks if they put out the hat on indiegogo or Patreon or whatever.

I'm a little concerned about community drama. And to some extent about precedent and expectations. But I don't think it's an outlandish idea; it could be considered kind of a grassroots version of what Valve does for TF2 or CS:GO mappers.

FWIW, by comparison I generally pay $5-$10 for complete indie games. Another data point: the in-game TF2 store sells "map stamps" for $1 each; I think that most of each stamp sale goes to the map's creator. 
Would Be Interested 
$5-10 for a single, large SP map ofthe same quality as your previous efforts.

$20 for an episode or mod perhaps.

Up to $50 for a Q1/Lovecraft inspired game/tc with some Dark Souls inspiration ;) 
If I had a steady job I would easily contribute to this idea, thinking that I've gotten way more out of Zendar even if I spent $20 on it, than the average 3 pints I get for that price. Unfortunately I'm on the edge of asking for retroactive contributions myself (lol, note, not yet that desperate, nor assuming any deserving). 
 
I've gotten way more out of Zendar even if I spent $20 on it, than the average 3 pints I get for that price.

This is a good measurement of enjoyment.

I'd absolutely pay 4 pints per 1 new sock map. 
I Wouldn't Pay For Q1SP Content 
Because of tradition and implications for the future.

If you enjoy mapping and have a desire to create a map, then you can a find of working on it as a hobby in your spare time, even if that means it'll take longer to finish.

If your activity has to be finacially viable, any kind of professional (freelance?) work is more suited to the task. There aren't that many people here, so while $500 (or however much) would make a nice tip, it won't be enough to finance a living for several months. 
 
I would be inclined to pledge to a standalone ITS game (with an actual proper budget in the ten-thousands) but not for a Quake map. Only if it included randomly hidden loot objects though. ;)

ericw: I don't have dedicated download counters, only what the webserver logs show. zendar1d.zip had about 450 downloads from Quaddicted. Majority surely happened on sock's official download link though. 
Quantity Vs Quality 
I Don't expect everyone to like this idea, it is perfectly fine with me to express your opinions in this thread. I want to know if there are enough people interested to fund the idea? There is no denying that everyone loves things for free, especially if it is something that is good quality.

What do people think about a book being better value than a short story? Is it really a subconscious things that quantity is always better than quality? Is it better to have a book padded out than a perfectly lean short story?

@raptore, being able to include your own secret is something that would be a perk. Someone either thinks of an idea or has a rough outline in a map file and I included it in the relevant location painted in the correct level style.

@nitin, I was thinking about another hub map with multiple route/key objectives and places to explore. Probably go for another horde style ending as trick bosses (e1m7) are not much fun.

@inertia, adding donations to the map process does not change the quality of my maps. I have done professional level design for years and my hobby work is no different.

@doomer, I can certainly create a rtlight file, include some extra shaders for liquids and setup some particles but I have no plans to create full HD assets.

@than, that indeed would be a dream come true, to create my own Q1/Lovecraft inspired game/tc with some Dark Souls inspiration! :)

@negke, The TF2/CSGo Valve community reward mappers with donations (hats/stamps) why can't the Quake community embrace such a change for quality maps? 
 
Micropayments for maps on steam workshop would be a dream come true for me. I could see like �1 maps and �5 map packs being something I could get into. But that would be my budget and value on the quake modding scene.
I love the idea of micropayments much more than semi-premium.
I have the 360 version of Doom II for instance, there is a new episode bundled with that that IMO is worth �5-10 of anyones money. 
Mm 
Just to be more precise, Valve community stuff is payment (for items) or donations (for maps) for an already completed product. It's not exactly the same thing as Kickstarter like patronage, which is what you're as suggesting here.

Both are fine in my opinion, but I think the distinction is important.

And yes please just make Dark Quake Souls and take my $60. 
 
"Because of tradition and implications for the future.

If you enjoy mapping and have a desire to create a map, then you can a find of working on it as a hobby in your spare time, even if that means it'll take longer to finish."

I think I fall in with negke on this. Do it if you want to do it - it's a hobby. Turning it into a job or something the community pays you to do feels wrong.

If you can't justify the time without getting paid, maybe it's not the hobby you're looking for.

(not a reflection on sock or the quality of his work, just speaking generally) 
 
I mean, how long until we get into people releasing teaser levels with an offer to create a full map/episode if they get enough donations? I don't like the precedent. 
 
I doubt it would influence others that much (with the small size of the community) but I feel the same about the hobby vs job thing. And that's what I probably did not say clear enough above. I would love to see someone try to fund a full (small) game as their full-time job! I would not be interested in funding someone's just-a-hobby, especially if I am used to getting it for free.

Someone suggested adding flattr or a similar micro-donation thing to Quaddicted, I once thought about Bitcoin (dunnnn). It did not seem worth the hassle and I think the small amount of money you would have to expect might actually be discouraging. Maybe Dogecoin (honestly, I find those fun)? :) 
Moving On 
I would not be interested in funding someone's just-a-hobby, especially if I am used to getting it for free.

I think that sums up the response to this idea, based on what I have heard so far. The Quake community is about free stuff and that is a good valid point. Not much more to be said, thread closed. 
Im With Negke, Inertia & Willem 
But hey, if you feel the need to capitalize on your hobby, and you can find a bunch of brownnose fuckers to jerk you off in the process, go ahead, no skin of my phallus.

Otherwise it's not your hobby any more, it's your job.

.

Oh Sorry 
I should have rea the last post in the thread before I got my flamethrower out :) 
What You Could Do Is Put A Big Fat Shiny 
Paypal 'Donate' button on all of your pages. That would get volountary contributions from those above who like the idea :) 
Sock 
1. i'd pay
2. why not just make something new from scratch dedicated to stygian theme on something like unity? i'd donate for sure ;) 
Or Even 
would join to help 
 
ITS standalone, ITS standalone, ITS standalone! Honestly, I love its (heh) concept and gameplay and think it might be a success. Maybe even as a free/floss game at a certain amount of money. Would be hard to make the monsters, but you have such a fucking talent and eye for style/atmosphere that I would have no doubt. Cloning and copying a game's style is legal and fine, so no possible ramifications(?) there.

On the other hand there is the now free and standalone The Dark Mod but I think it is quite different. ITS is more fast and reaction based. 
Ps Rekt23 
 
Ricky, WTF?! 
 
Yeah Sorry I Didn't Have Enough Coffe This Morning 
 
The Point Of All This 
Speaking for myself at least, is that it's impossible to justify spending so much time on something that will never give a return.

It'd be great to be paid to make more Quake, it'd mean more and better content, with it being more high profile as a result.

This community is small, but the gaming community is massive and their reaction to things like ITS and Trenchbroom makes me think that it would be possible for mappers to produce and earn from it.

On the other hand, a Unity project from scratch for the indie market or a mobile app (too complex to be easily stolen yet still accessible) are other possibilities.

Final thought - many people map for Quake coming from a hobby background, while Sock comes from a professional one.

As elitist as it might sound, that's an important distinction. 
This 
Speaking for myself at least, is that it's impossible to justify spending so much time on something that will never give a return.

I can only do it, in the case of TB, because I have a day job that pays decent, and a very understanding girlfriend. 
 
If you can get people to pony up the cash, then great ... do that. There's nothing stopping that from happening even if I don't like what that implies for the future.

I just think it sets a bad precedent where anyone with skill won't produce things for free anymore.

Why would they if they can get paid instead?

Well, because it's a fun hobby.

And we're back to square one and the snake eats itself. :) 
What Ijed Said 
 
 
Speaking for myself at least, is that it's impossible to justify spending so much time on something that will never give a return.

No financial return, but it does give an individual/social one: the feeling of accomplishment, having crafted something, proven or improved a skill set, created unconditional product for people to enjoy and discuss. If that's not enough to justify the effort, well... 
 
"Speaking for myself at least, is that it's impossible to justify spending so much time on something that will never give a return."

I guess the counter question to that is, why are you expecting a hobby/fun thing you do on the side to generate a return? Isn't the return the act itself?

Maybe I'm thinking about this whole hobbyist thing wrong, I dunno. :) 
I Suppose 
The distinction between hobby and work is $$$ so maybe it is unfair to try and make one the other.

If love to be able to carry on working in Quake, it's a comfortable place and everything is secure - I know how to do good work in it.

Unfortunately I don't earn enough in my day job to pay for everything I want to do, so have to use the skills - many of which I learned and refined from this awesome hobby - to make something which is financially viable. 
How Many More Maps Would We See 
If authors got a bit of cash for all the hundreds of hours they spent perfecting something?

Maybe a donation format would be the better way to go, as someone suggested above. 
 
The thing is that you would never get a "fair" amount of money for the numbers of hours invested. So if you are not motivated without the money, I doubt the small amount you might with donations could help. Daz probably made a whopping 5� with youtube ads so far.

Community driven donations with a solid "hard" purpose and fixed outside target are much easier, see Quaddicted hosting or Daz' new gfx card. Here the money serves as means to infrastructure, not the motivator (although to me it feels so fantastic and I am sure Daz is glowing with community spirit as well). 
What.... 
I really don't see the problem with wanting to make a living from doing something you enjoy, isn't it what everyone should be aiming for?

It's not easy though, that's for sure (and unfortunately for sock I doubt it's viable in such a small community), but saying that suddenly throwing money into the mix will degrade some holy hobbyist activity is a load of crap. 
 
I think we're conflating motivation and opportunity cost here. 
 
Bal - It's a bad precedent. So then say someone else well loved wants to make a map ... they think, "Well, sock got $500 for his last level - fuck this, I won't even get started for less than $350". Eventually, maps are commissioned rather than done for the pure joy of mappping.

Oh, and this WILL inevitably lead to people feeling that since they kicked in $50, you have to let them beta test the map AND implement their suggestions. They're paying you, after all.

See? It's a mess. 
 
And I know the predictable func response to that would be, "Tell the cunts to sod off" or whatever it is that you people say, but ... then they stop funding maps. And now where are we? :) 
I Think That Thrusting A Donate Button Right Into The Downloaders Face 
Could be a happy compromise. I mean if they are totally blown away by the level, then they may well have a 'moment', and donate!

What would be really cool (sort of) would be if you incorporated a donate button into the game. I would be impressed by that (I still probably wouldn't donate though, I just don't have a huge amount of money).

Or you could make the player wait for 10 minutes before they could progress OR donate and access level 2 now....

Like Candy Crush Saga! 
 
I think sock just wants to make Quake maps, but his time is at a premium (I assume he does contract development, or similar) and thus he was looking for an avenue to ease the financial pain of the time investment needed to fulfill that desire. This is just a theory though.

We all need to get by, we all want to do particular things and sometimes those particular things take a lot of time (mapping being a good example, particularly at the quality level sock delivers). I doubt I would make a donation due to my own financial situation, but I would applaud sock if he were able to fund the time investment made into Quake mapping. And I would get another awesome Quake map out of it.

Refreshed and saw more comments:
Donate buttons are awesome, it lets people who have some free finances easily support the content that they like, but doesn't encourage an expectation of compensation for community activities. 
 
I don't think that donate buttons work. I had zero donations from the button at Quaddicted. All donations came directly from the active fund drive. 
Long Story Short 
I produced 4 pro quality maps to learn some new level design tricks and I had a blast making them. I said I was not going to make anymore and some friends said they wanted more and would offer donations, so I thought why not, a little bit of cash for some quality maps should ok, lets see if anyone else is interested? There is no hidden agenda or refusing to make maps unless I get paid.

@Willem, I am not holding the community to ransom, I am just responding to what people have said, they like my stuff and are willing to pay to see more of it. The whole "It's a bad precedent" is dramatic and misleading, if you don't like something then don't pay for it!

@RickT23, not sure why you are flaming this thread with comparisons to F2P games or that you are outraged about paying someone to make something you enjoy. I am assuming you played all my maps and enjoyed them! I think everyone here understands your viewpoint, multiple times. 
 
"The whole "It's a bad precedent" is dramatic and misleading, if you don't like something then don't pay for it!"

It's not dramatic. If people don't pay, that content doesn't get made, and that starts a negative spiral.

I'm not trying to target you, I think you're a good guy and have done some great stuff. However, I think gathering up cash before being willing to make maps is ultimately going to be bad for the future of a mapping community.

That's all. 
 
"I don't think that donate buttons work. I had zero donations from the button at Quaddicted. All donations came directly from the active fund drive."

I agree and putting one on the download page is even worse. Even if you LOVE the map, what are the odds of you going back to the web page to click the Donate button? Almost zip. 
Sock 
I think you should nevermind this thread and just go for it. Worst case scenario, it won't work out and no one will lose money. 
 
I'm generally negative on this for a few reasons:

First as others have mentioned it seems to go against the spirit of the community which is people creating levels for love of the craft, and giving them away. In theory, other people in the community repay you by making their own levels and then everyone effectively gets hundreds of free levels in payment for the 1 level they made. Obviously some people don't make maps, but play them, so they get a free lunch, but then again some of those people make websites or editors or engines, and that is how they pay back the community. It's a bit communist because people pay into the community based on how much they are able to -- people with fewer real life obligations can obviously donate more of their time and energy.

I also don't see how anyone can get a decent hourly rate mapping for an audience of a few hundred, unless each donor puts in a lot of money. Perhaps sock is very efficient (he did produce like 4-5 maps in one year) and maybe those maps only took a few weeks of his time, but I'm not sure that he can expect to actually earn a living wage from quake mapping. So if it's not to make a living, is the money just symbolic? (obviously this is up to sock whether the economics make sense, but other people are throwing around terms like "if he wants to make a living on quake maps, more power to him!" etc. which assumes a lot about the volume of money involved.)

Also I wonder if this idea is sustainable. Question was stated "would you pay some money for a new sock map" but the follow-on question is "how often would you be willing to do it again for another map?" If all maps were paid maps, would you buy 1 map a year? 10 maps a year?

Finally I hope this idea doesn't alter people's attitudes towards making maps and playing maps. When you look at a lot of professional and end-user game reviews, they seem to be all about "was this game worth the money" instead of just talking about the game on its merits. I hope that quake map reviews and feedback don't devolve into the same "This level was too short for a $10 level" etc.

As a counter-proposal, I feel more positive about paying for new models, sounds, and textures (also tools, engines), released either GPL or public domain, any of which have a longer-lasting benefit to the community. For example a set of faithful replacement models would benefit everyone permanently. Or new monsters that are at high quality and can be used in many maps. 
 
Why aren't you doing any more q1sp's sock? What are you going to do now? 
Metlslime 
Bit of a tangent, but this caught my eye:
"When you look at a lot of professional and end-user game reviews, they seem to be all about "was this game worth the money" instead of just talking about the game on its merits."

At TruePCGaming, the reviews we write always culminate in that actually, literally the final paragraph has a header of "Conclusion - Is it worth the money?" because the reviews are written from a consumer advocacy perspective rather than a ludological angle, which stems partially from the fact that so many PC games are bad ports these days so it is a valid concern. It comes from "Regardless of how well designed this game might be, it performs poorly/crashes all the time/has dreadful controls/has a constrictive FOV you can't change" (and why we have in the Technical Summary, an FOV Slider bit).

On the subject, I agree with what you are saying, at the same time I don't feel negative toward sock's idea, I guess I just view it as more of a mixed economy.

I do hope we see more work from sock though. 
What Otp Said 
 
 
others have said this better than i but since you specifically asked:
i would not pay. i strongly believe that modding should be free. 
I Would Donate If: 
the ogres wore sexy stockings and were underage 
Sorry Sock You Misunderstood Me. 
When I said "please make them work with Darkplaces", I didn't mean HD or flashy assets. I like quake as it is well enough, except for blocky blood particles. It just so happens that darkplaces is my favorite engine for its versatility and proper blood particles (what I miss most when using fitzquake and its derivatives), and your past work doesn't work very well with it. For example, at the final arena of Ivory Tower, if you are using darkplaces, the ogres would not show up as intended when you enter by using the lift, but remain hidden and still able to toss grenades at you. I am writing this from my memory only, so it might not be Ivory Tower but another excellent map of yours. It's the one with the said final arena where you use buttons to crush enemies and three or so ogres and then vores and multiple knights and hell knights would appear to give you a good time.

--------------
in response to "@doomer, I can certainly create a rtlight file, include some extra shaders for liquids and setup some particles but I have no plans to create full HD assets." 
I'm Very Interested 
Sock, your point surely fits well in the Quake world, here's my thoughts:

-First, yes I'd pay but only for a consistent release such 1 or 2 episodes, possibly something as Nehahra eheh

-Curious what Carmack/Id could say about from a legal point of view.. anyway it's a donation fee we're talking or not ?

-I don't know if sites like Kickstarter are viable options legally speaking because you're selling a game based on a proprietary engine except in case of a true total conversion (that's the way I'd choose myself) 
 
+1 to metlslime's comment, very closely mirrors my own feelings.

I don't think I would donate towards a single map being made, even at the high quality that sock makes his at. I prefer the Quake community as non-commercial, especially since it's been that way for so long. I also don't think there is enough wide appeal that you would get much more than a couple hundred bucks and would mostly just serve to create unreasonable expectations for that map.

Not a fan of Kickstarter or other such methods of 'the consumer pays before completion' in general anyway. I'm not against helping out a friend who needs and asks for help... but as a general method of funding in game dev at large, I hate them. 
I Can Understand Both Sides Of The Argument 
except ricky's first post :)

Although I think people worrying about the legal side of things are thinking too hard. It's a 17 yr old game and regardless of whether there is any legal implications (and I think those are debateable anyway), they would never be enforced.

But even though I would be persoanlly happy to contribute, I do understand the points raised by willem, metl et al. 
 
"As a counter-proposal, I feel more positive about paying for new models, sounds, and textures (also tools, engines), released either GPL or public domain, any of which have a longer-lasting benefit to the community. For example a set of faithful replacement models would benefit everyone permanently. Or new monsters that are at high quality and can be used in many maps. "

I have an idea of recreating Chasm the Rift's monsters and weapons in Quake as a Quoth like Pack. Action Forms is dead so there are no legal issues. How much money is fair for something like this? Would really like to see Chasm live on in Quake. 
@sock 
Seeking public consensus is the wrong way to go.

Everyone rejects new ideas because they are new and people don't like change.

The demographic you would need to target isn't the one here. Minecraft, Candy Crush, Flappy Bird, World of Warcraft show that this can be done. There might even be Steam examples -- Team Fortress 2 generates a ton of purchases of extra items and such.

However, one real problem is targeting the audience you are looking for a game ...

1) That isn't free.
2) For a game that is not phone/tablet friendly.
3) For a game that isn't hooked up to Steam API if you wanted to target desktop.
4) For a game that is very poorly packaged on Steam --- it requires going outside Steam to find a modern engine (as far as I know).

The idea is sound. And should be how the world works! But when something is fucked up and isn't ideal, you have to look at why.

And that tangled mess is staring you in the face.

Maybe you "wage war against a sea of troubles, and by confronting them --- end them" (notice cool use of Shakespeare I stuck in there, awesome Baker +3).

But taking that on is a major undertaking. Probably not the one you are looking for.

/Tosses ijed and Spike a "nickel".

[When you are looking to do "change", never ask for permission. Except if you are asking "permission" with the intent to run objectors over with bulldozer and point them out as examples of "losers" to look cool because you already were doing it and wanted noisy volunteers to serve as comic relief.] 
Okay That Is Now 2 Posts 
I dont understand :) 
 
I don't think I'd pay for a single map, however I would gladly give you dosh for ITS. 
A Thought 
well the idea of a spiritual sequel to Quake has been floating around here for a while; I think the proposal for a Quake-like modern standalone game, which could be based on Quake technology, makes a lot more sense as something people would pay for (and presumably not just the Quake community, but gamers more generally), since it would be perceived as a game rather than a mod. If people really got their act together, it could be on Steam, and it could load or support previous custom Q1SP levels.

Interesting discussion; so far I think metlslime's post was the most insightful. 
 
what the hell is ITS?

re poor distribution of quake on steam, the entire game is small enough that you could just make it standalone, if it was an episode. not sure of the legal ramifications. 
 
Will I Pay For A Map ?? 
No...

As other mentioned already, I will not donate for a map, neither for a set of maps, even if those have professional looks.

I think Quake mapping needs to remain a hobby. Involving some "commercial" or "financial" aspects lead to transform your hobby into your "job", and this changes the picture radically IMHO (pressure vs pleasure essentially).

We have seen in the past some fantastic packs (e.g Travail, Beyond Beliefs, Zerstorer, etc...) or mods (e.g Quoth) made by hobbyists.. so why should we start funding one know ? All those have been created by volunteers, by fans, by passionate guys that love Quake, and that were just looking to keep our community alive, and give fun to the players, and have fun to create something different and new (Note I am not sure whether they have been funded to be honest, but what I am sure is that despite the fact we have wait for sometimes year those packs/mods are awesome).

I admit we have less and less new things since several years, but that's the life of any game: it has to be forgotten at some points.. I am not sure either but look at the Doom community (I am talking about the former Doom/Doom2).. how many people are still playing mapping for this game now ? Almost less than for Quake I guess... though... but I guess you can count them on your two hands, as we can count us here.
That's inevitable..

Anyway, sock you have certainly some good intentions there, and I wish you all the best for your project.

Keep it up ! 
77 
oh of course 
I'll Just Repeat My Thoughts Again In More Detail 
Quite honestly, Sock's maps have given me hours of enjoyment. I'd be more than willing to donate some wonga if he had one of those little paypal button "like my work?..." thingies on his site, as a token of my appreciation for the maps of his that I've already played.

I am aware that:

1) maybe I'm the only one who'd do this, so it'll never stand a chance of creating enough dosh to fund future work.

2) Some people might react the wrong way to it, i.e. donate some money and assume sock is now obligated to make more content for them, which isn't really how it works.

As for the more relevent question of "should I start a kickstarter for quake content" - I have no problem with the idea, but to make this work, the promised content would have to be extensive, and therefore to fund it (i.e. give up your day job to work on this), the funds needed would be way, way, way beyond what us dozen-or-so reprobates here would cough up.

That's for a big whopping "holy shit" episode though.

I don't think a kickstarter to make just a couple of maps would work because the money required (again to give up your day job to make a couple of maps lol) would still be very high, and also as people have said here, it goes against the spirit of the hobby quite a bit, so is rather unpopular. 
IDK - I Just Thought That The Sticky Came Across As Arrogant 
Very arrogant.

Yes - You're a pro
Yes - Your maps rock

BUT

To site your own maps as 'professional quality' somes across as arrogant. Reading between the lines, you are saying that your maps are better than the others. And that you deserve more money (or 'to be paid') for them, for all the great work you are doing for this community. Which comes across as arrogant.

So yeah - I flamed it.

In retrospect, I subsequently read the rest of the thread and some of what you were saying was a little less bullish than I had originally assumed. So I tried to retract some of the fiery-hot sentiment.

Sock: I assume you have played MY maps, and thought that they are of top quality...? :E 
This Is A Fun Discussion Though... 
No Opinion. 
Other than if I were to pay then I would expect the release quality / functionality (i.e. installing, lack of bugs, user options) to be fully professional. 
Ricky. 
To site your own maps as 'professional quality' somes across as arrogant.

I disagree. In sock's case, it's a statement of facts.

Reading between the lines, you are saying that your maps are better than the others.

That is pure interpretation on your part. You want to read it that way. In fact, sock did not say anything about the quality of other mappers.

And that you deserve more money (or 'to be paid') for them, for all the great work you are doing for this community. Which comes across as arrogant.

There is no mention of "deserving" anything in sock's posts. He simply asked: Are people willing to shell out some cash for his maps. Most people said no. Case closed.

Sock: I assume you have played MY maps, and thought that they are of top quality...? :E

How does this thread have anything to do with your maps? Jaysus, bro. 
Baker 
Better to ask for forgiveness than permission 
Penny Arcade 
Sleepz 
I disagree. In sock's case, it's a statement of facts.

This might be true, but no-one likes it when you say it yourself. Because it makes you sound arrogant.

That is pure interpretation on your part. You want to read it that way. In fact, sock did not say anything about the quality of other mappers.

I disagree, he sites his own maps a 'professional quality' which is separatist I think.

How does this thread have anything to do with your maps? Jaysus, bro.

(Sock, before)I am assuming you played all my maps and enjoyed them!</a> 
Tag Fail 
Shocking really, from a professional web designer :P 
Disagree 
I don't see anything offensive about it, moreover Sock seems like one of the most level-headed people on here (unlike for example, you, or me, heh). I think of professional quality as meaning, taking care of every last little detail. That is something I don't do; I tend to get impatient and just call things finished, although I held on to Wicked for an extra 6 months to do (most of) the tweaks that perfectionist-negke suggested (heh).

Sock's maps also seem planned in advance; frankly I just start drinking and start mapping and hope that eventually something reasonably interesting appears.

All of that said, Stark Monstrosity was awesome, one of the best base maps ever, possibly even the best one. 
(mostly) Joking 
just thought of something:
maybe we could crowdfund "resurrecting" mappers like Kell and Kinn ;) 
Czg Needs To Make Another Map 
 
 
I'd absolutely pay 4 butts per 1 new czg map. 
The Bribe 
20 bucks via Paypal if you manage to pull off a new Travail single-handedly (with a similar amount of levels and playtime), 30-40 if it's really good. Since I don't doubt it would be... ^^ 
 
It's difficult to read this thread and know that very many of you don't know very much at all about sock personally. 
We Rarely Ask 
not trying to creep that bro jaysus 
Sock Don't Give Up 
I've read the same amount of people pro and con so I don't think the case is closed as someone said.
I add that a Kickstarter project could only work according to the size of the project itself.. that would mean something as big as Travail,Nehahra,Zerstorer,FantasyQuake, therefore very mission-pack like. 
To Pay Or Not To Pay, That Is The Question 
I don't play Quake anymore (and wouldn't pay for it even if i did). Consequently, I have never played a Sock map but I always read reviews here so can assume that the quality is of a very high standard.

This whole thing reminds me of when rugby union went professional in the UK. We had guys in the junior/amateur clubs asking for payment to play or to go training. The junior clubs were not in a position to do any such thing, so the goods players went off to seek their fortunes elsewhere, and the ordinary bods stayed where they were. Some of the better players made it in the 'big time', some didn't, but at least they tried. Meanwhile the junior clubs carried on as best they could, some folded, some amalgamated, some stayed exactly the same. But everybody who wanted to could still play rugby at whatever standard they were good enough for. The amateur clubs still don't pay players.

Ability is a leveller and time moves on.

And as for the donate button... yeh, right. 
 
"It's difficult to read this thread and know that very many of you don't know very much at all about sock personally."

How would knowing him personally change the equation? 
Czg Needs To Make Another Map 
I agree,

and i would pay for another map from sock,czg,kinn
duh 
At Any Chance 
i would get it for free 
 
Of course all depends of how much, but if I know a fellow Quaker is with no job and this is a chance to get some money YES I'M WHOULD PAY SOME MONEY WITH NO PROBLEMS, is last map was really really fantastic. 
Finaly Find Out Why... 
frankly I just start drinking and start mapping and hope that eventually something reasonably interesting appears.


Thats why i like your maps so much! 
 
I think sock has left the building. Don't blame him when some people are getting a bit personal.

Orb you might find your the next 'sock' (shoe?) if you didn't map while drunk :P 
Heh, He's Quoting Me 
I think Sock's stuff is so professional because that's just how he works; I tend to be satisfied if people even understand what I was going for and don't complain too much other than the difficulty. I also tend to work on several maps at once. I think a Sock-style map requires advance planning, huge attention to detail, and focusing just on one map at a time. 
Nope 
He makes maps and games in order to pay the rent. 
Right 
but I meant, even when he makes stuff for free, it displays the work habits/etc that obviously come from doing it professionally. 
Sock... 
...just disappear from the scene for a bit, tell everyone you'd love to work on maps but your computer died. Claim you need a top end Alienware to run your Quake editor, then when the cash comes rolling in you can spend it all on crack and hoes. 
 
Is he a big gardener or something? 
My Editor.. 
only runs on a cluster of bitcoin miners...pls fund 
 
I think crowd funding is a good idea if it gets things done. I don't think it would threaten the current order, but maybe get some neat things accomplished. I'd pay for great episodes with some new assets. 
 
I could see paying for a toolkit, like Quoth. Like, here's a bunch of new stuff to use in levels ... that would take a lot of extra effort to make sure it was as bulletproof as possible, was easy to use, etc.

That would be worth money because that SHOULD cause a bunch of new maps to get built on the back of it, simply because people want to use the new entities.

Just thinking out loud... 
I like that idea. 
ITS Toolkit! 
 
I Also Like That Idea 
I would cough a tenner, so long as there was an added gore option.... (I STILL miss my little blood-splat/pain skins mod) 
Quoth. 
I would pay good money to get the broken bits fixed i.e. Knight and Drole damage range, shotgun grunt "reaction" time, Bob dodging etc. In fact I'd pay good money to get those monsters permanently removed from Quoth and every map that used them :D 
Way To Go 
Convincing authors not to bother. 
 
http://www.patreon.com/

I only just learned of this site today, wish I had seen it earlier when this discussion was more fresh, but I think this structure is more fitting for what sock was going for. The idea being that people pledge to pay some amount of dollars for each 'creation'. Basically like a recurring donation that recurs each time something new is made (or several).

I'm not totally convinced that it would really be all that much as to be meaningful income (a few hundred bucks a map from the total of the community?), but I think this is more aligned with the goals of 'support the artist'. Indiegogo feels more 'pay so I can do this', instead of 'pay because you enjoy what I do'. 
 
You're just trying to get us to donate to yours, scampie:
http://www.patreon.com/SmoothMcGroove 
 
My cat is grey, obviously not me. 
 
And Scampie is most certainly not smooth. Actually neither is that guy. 
 
I Would Pay Sock, With Reservations 
and I would pay for 'finalized' quoth as well.

I guess. Ugh, Negke, Scampie et al make good points...

Best go with #107. 
Sock Shouldn't Listen 
The "herd" mentality is the opposite of creativity.

What if Kinn started a thread back in 2005 like "Would you play a map that wouldn't run in WinQuake?"

And then 40 people start talking about how they wouldn't play such a map, how it would be wrong to break traditions, etc.

The "herd" mentality is something I have always found very annoying.

And a func_msgboard sometimes you have otherwise very creative and talented people who are actually attracted to the herd mentality at times --- probably because they are too talented in real life to participate in "real life herds" and like the feeling of being an "insider" as part of a herd.

But herd-thinking is never creative thinking -- and herd-thinking has another characteristic, by default it is always wrong too.

[Herd thinking isn't "thinking", herd thinking is actually the opposite of thinking.] 
 
The other way to look at it is that if 40 people tell you that slamming your hand in a car door is a bad idea ... it might just be a bad idea. 
"If All Your Friends Charged Money For Quake Maps 
would you do it too?!" 
Heh 
I just think that the target audience is mixed. Some of the readers are mappers who are proud and amateur (like me), and some of those mappers get green-eyed in different ways, some for the map quality, some for the success, it's just a volatile mix of artists with varying degrees of personality traits. It was a bold question when looked it in this kind of context, I mean the fact that some readers are here to play the maps alone, some are interested in the development side too... - some will see others as competitors, whereas others will see them as providers of playable content. 
It's Easy To Get Jaded 
 
Sock Shouldn't Listen... 
....and Baker obviously hasn't listened nor read the actual thread. Otherwise he would have noticed there is clearly no bloody herd mentality, just people offering view points from BOTH sides and in-between too. Often with some thought out reasoning, and sometimes where people were going too far, useful counter-arguments.

Maybe do more "thinking" before typing next time. 
Baker 
What if Kinn started a thread back in 2005 like "Would you play a map that wouldn't run in WinQuake?"

But my maps do run in WinQuake :} 
#rekt 
 
Just Two Questions 
1) who the fuck is that sunglasses guy named ����puple
2) when hes gonna map?
3) whatta fuck is goin on? 
Is This Thread Still Going 
"Good" "job" "lads" "\"\"" 
At Least... 
I payed 100$ to buy Aftershock, because there were no editors at that time free available.

I do know the variable variant is a dollar sign.

I'm surprised a toppic like this goes on for so long without the author's comment.

I'm ready to go back to my computerstore to pay for Quake AGAIN! 
What If... 
...ones who donated are the only ones who gain access to the map(s) or episode(s)?

i'm a player, not a mapper. i wish i was. but IF the talent leaving comments on this thread all collaborated on a new 'Quake' game, I WOULD PAY TO OWN THE MASTERPIECE THAT WOULD COME OF IT. 
Difficulty Selection 
the difficulty selection map could be as follows:

easy
id
nightmare
Tronyn
I Would Have Argued With You ... 
... if it were some months ago about easy and id difficulty being the same, but after seeing a friend running out of ammo and axing things in normal e1m1 even though he took all the ammo that map has, made me lose all my arguments. 
Corcerello, 
i like your comments/reviews on quaddicted.

i still consider 'Tronyn' the hardest skill level. i usually play on his 'normal.'
maybe:
id
hard
Tronyn
Tronyn (nightmare) 
Re 133 
I suspect that he really has left the building 
 
Over what? This thread? 
Sock 
Said he was leaving the thread long time ago, in #31.

* dB_Audio, the previous list was perfect. Except maybe you could add a fifth skilll level for Tronyn skill 4 in Arwop ;)

I don't deserve that compliment, but thanks anyway. 
Why Not? 
..but it would be more interesting with a more ambitious project, like a full episode 
Shit 
... I missed the party. Yes, I'd pay for a sock map - or any other high-quality map (in fact I said so as a comment earlier on one of his maps), just not 10$. I'd say it's something like 2-3$ for a single map, 5$ for a 3-map mini-episode and 10$ for a full episode. These are realistic prices in a modern daily-75%-off Steam world. I'd also pay money for a good Doom episode, these two games itch my shooter scratch pretty well. 
I Would Pay 
... http://youtu.be/l91ISfcuzDw

in all seriousness, how much would you net from this? It's a bit of a niche community, how many paying customers would you get out of it?
If you get a 100 people paying 5 bucks for a map that might be nice as extra income, but not for a full time investment. Then again I don't know just how fast Sock can churn them out. I think we've been a bit spoiled by things like Bundles and Steam sales also. 2 bucks a game only works when you have a huge platform to leverage.

(throws 2 cents at dead horse) 
 
This is hell
This is fate
But now this is your home and it's great
So rejoice
Pop a cork
Honey, everyone's coming to modern video game industry! 
 
The drunk thread is over there. 
Hmmm I Could Consider It. 
Hmmm if somebody made an entire episode? Yea I could consider 10 dollars for sure. 15 if it gets some more custom QC support like new monsters and weapon or features that go beyond the usual vanilla stuff. But I don't expect to make a living from that since in game dev you need large numbers. I think you could cover your coffee costs though hehe.
If there was a constant flow of epic quake 1 and 2 episodes on a monthly bases... oh lovely thought 
 
After re-reading the thread I think I have definitely changed my perspective a little bit. Sock did state he'd release for free after the project is finished, the model would be similar to a patreon model? You pay into the project and that's to support the artist?

I do think I'd pay for an ITS game actually, a fleshed out game would be worthy of my money and time thinking about it. 
Ok 
If you could make a game scarier than kleshik(and bloodier) then i will pay $60.
Or &#8377;800(rupees) 
Patreon Is A Good Choice. 
You can count on me. 
Tools 
Regardless of how good or bad the maps are: When the mapping part begins to make money, the makers of the tools you're using for that can run into motivation problems if they don't get a share. That is even after reviewing the licenses of those for whether such a commercial use* is allowed in the first place - the next version might not be for free anymore. Or the next version might not be released anymore because the billing troubles are a nuisance. The tools are there and ready for use, but they were not easy to make either.

*And it _is_ a commercial use. Worst, even the game studios might not want to see a commercial ecosystem based on their stuff. 
And It Goes Even Further 
The same set of issues arise when you look at the libraries the tools use to do their work - Not all are necessarily free and open source and maintained by really charitable people. And free or cheap webhosting among friends often comes with rules or expectations regarding being noncommercial.

When you cross borders, issues can get worse - In Germany, for instance, lawful crowdfunding and micropayments put such a burden on the beneficiary regarding taxes, receipts and documentation that it's usually not worth the effort at all, so doing it wrong in terms of taxes (and social insurance and health insurance, at great personal risk) or shunning commercial uses altogether are often seen as more viable options. 
Sorry For The Third, But I Forgot Something And There's No Edit Func 
In Germany, going commercial also means adding an "impressum" to your website and revealing your identity.
And it makes you eligible for being sued for patent and trademark infringement, even if you invented it all on your own and had no idea and only generate a tiny sum of money with it. These implications are a little worse for programs than for maps. Suddenly you can need legal counsel that puts your whole finances at stake.

All these issues are veiled very easily if you just look at the simple need for earning a reward for your time and crowdsourcing platforms offer great tools to do that easily... while covering their own asses on the legal side very well.

OK, hope that was my last post part now.
And again, this is no statement about the quality of your work. 
Try Using Patreon To Support Your Career/hobbies* 
What about patreon? this sound like you need more support for other projects also. Patreon is way to go really. 
 
At least check out website, there is a lot of creative people. The most important thing is to get founders, and be loyal to them. In patreon you can list out many other things that might come to you mind, not just singleplayer maps, but also list out other things - so people will understand the bigger vision you have in mind.

https://www.patreon.com/ 
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