|Posted by Orl on 2016/01/21 03:07:25|
|Five years in the making, these two maps are a lengthy journey through a non-linear H.R. giger themed flooded scrapyard. Large areas, hundreds of monsters, dozens of traps and bizarre landmarks await you.
These maps come with only two skill settings, easy and hard. Normal skill is unsupported, and attempting load the map with it will trap you in an enclosed area until the skill is changed.
Exploration is vital, as there is lots of ground to cover. You will most likely not encounter every monster on your first playthrough, but is it encouraged to stray off the path to hunt for health and ammunition, because you are going to need it.
Save often, be prepared to face a horde of enemies at any time. There is no one precise route to take, all are interconnected with one another in some way.
Lastly, and most important and disappointingly, these maps require the use of the RMQ 0.85.3 engine, which is included in the zip file. The reason being is the second part of the map extends beyond Quake's default +-4096 map limit. RMQ is the predecessor to the Quakespasm engine, so most should find the transition easy enough. Quakespasm and other engines may soon support larger map sizes but until then, RMQ 0.85.3 is the only engine that has been tested and can play these maps without issue.
I understand this is a controversial decision and an unpopular one, I like Quakespasm just as much as the rest of you, as it is more stable and optimized. But it could not be helped that the map needed extra room, and I was against the idea of cutting out a large and expensive portion of the map in order to squeeze it into Quake's default map size. I also realize this will create a conflict with sharing demos amongst each other.
Also included are the .map files along with the texture .wad file, which you are free to use for any project of your own.
I feel its also important to note that while this may not be my last Quake map, its my last in regards to very large and overly complex maps.
With that said, please enjoy, critique, and record and share demos to your leisure.
Engine Update : Special build of QuakeSpasm with OMS3 support (windows + mac + source code):
Make sure to enter "sv_protocol 999" in the console before starting the map!
First Map, Scond Killed
Just to say that I was able to play the first map with the latest Quakespasm, in nightmare mode, texan style. Fucking out of this world map. All monsters killed in about 8 minutes.
The second map wasn't able to load.
will add it to the playlist along with AD and the last map jam still needs to be completed.
Out Of Interest
why no skill 1?
Normal is just a setting on your dryer.
And who doesn't play on Nightmare on every map?
Normal is just a setting on your dryer.
And who doesn't play on Nightmare on every map?
I hope that's not his reason. If Orl went to the trouble of implementing difficulty levels and really did skip Normal because of macho dickwaving over a video game, that's pretty ridiculous.
I play lots of maps on Normal, because I want to check out the neat stuff you guys build and have a good time. What I don't want is to grind my fingernails off on occasionally horrid balance and combat design to prove to myself that I'm "manly enough."
What Lun Said
I play everything on Normal because when every new map is packed with 400 monsters anyway, it's usually got enough stuff shooting at me.
From The Readme
Quakespasm support might come soon afterward.
Is that just wishful thinking, or is it seriously in the works to increase the map extents in QS?
Can't Open Maps
rmq engine won't open. Errors. using fitzquake the maps don't show up even though their in the id1 maps folder
Which are ... ?
You can't expect help without sharing some information.
Orl - congrats on the release! I have been looking forward to this since the first screenshots a year or two ago :D
Kinn, I did a proof-of-concept implementation of protocol 999 in QS, not well tested / merged in / shared yet, which allows bigger map extents. It should be safe to add to the engine if it's explicitly activated by the player, by entering "sv_protocol 999", although the usability sucks, unfortunately.
Played the first map, was good, except the blurring "hurt animation", idk how its called.
It is an engine thing that can be deactivated i hope.
Second map gave me serious headaches after 10 minutes, had to quit. Will revisit later
These maps must have the greatest facecount-to-gameplay ratio ever. Weird brushwork throughout, but in an acceptable good sense (somehow).
check the first few comments here for turning off some of the rmq effects here: https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/something_wicked.html
To deactivate 'hurt animation'.
Just played through both maps on Hard and it felt pretty epic!
Don't want to spoil anything but the "Demonic Junkyard" style is pretty damn original and I especially enjoyed the second map's use of the water.
I can see why the map is so large...in order to keep atmosphere and invoke a grand sense of scale.
Not a fan of using a different engine but since you took so long to create these maps I didn't mind so much. Good job Orl!
Definitely some of the more unique maps I've played.
Being torn away from QS is a bit of a bummer but still doesn't hurt the maps imho. Had several "Wow! What the hell?" moments after seeing some of the architecture.
err ok, you are clearly a master and we are all just plebs.
Qmaster is the human equivalent of those 90s game adverts you'd see in magazines that were all saturated primary colours and super-low focal length photos of some nerdy kid's epiglottis as they screamed into the camera.
THE GREATEST CHALLENGE YET! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO BEAT IT, OR ARE YOU A LITTLE WEINER?
Boasts of his almighty skill 3 quad rage online!
Runs off to spam the quickload key in real life.
Again Can't Open Maps
I put oms3.bsp and oms3_2.bsp in quake-id1-maps folder. I extracted RMQEngine_0.85.3 in my quake file. I double clicked on RMQEngine-Win32 icon and get "W_Load Wad File: couldn't load gfx.wad(basedir:,)
I double click on fitzquake 085-console-skill 0 map oms3 and get this error.
"Mod_LoadBrushModel:mapsoms3.bsp has wrong version number (1112756274 should be 29)
you are doing it wrong.
1st, fitzquake 0.85 can't handle bsp2 maps. that your wrong version number message.
the other errormessage seems to be some fuckup i cannot reproduce here. try to start rmq from a clean directory.
the gfx.wad error usually means the game is not using the correct "working directory"
if launching from a shortcut, you can set this in the shortcut properties.
if launching from a batch file, you can "cd" to the quake directory before launching the exe.
But, when directly double-clicking the exe I'm not sure what the behavior is in that case.
For those having trouble with RMQEngine, here's an experimental Quakespasm build that loads both maps:
win32 binary source
Important: you have to set "sv_protocol 999" before starting, otherwise you will wrap around when you step outside of +-4096 (half way through the second map)
Another One Bites The Dust
For future mapping projects, how big are those new boundaries?
What are the drawbacks?
how big are those new boundaries?
As vast as czg's cavernous ass.
+ / - 8192
Is my uneducated guess
Czgs Ass Fits In A 4x4x4 Box
I'm using +/-8192 myself in jackhammer.
All these huge maps of late are simply amazing.
none of those use extended bounds, thats amazing heh?
Night In The Museum
Wow, I do love the sculptures, especially when you get outside the first dome (first map) and see this wild landscape of twisted metal bursting out from muddy waters. Hands and faces scattered around the outer edges with strange metal platforms and spiral ramps instead of stairs. The two domes on either end of the central room looked like some cool bio sphere experiment and you get to explore inside them as well!
The map is definitely a different visual style to most Quake maps. It certainly felt like a labour of love with the editor and far how you can twist, warp and rotate brushes to create stuff. My only concern is how this twisted brushwork affected gameplay, especially the spiral ramps that I often fell off and/or got catapulted at weird angles from.
I played the first map on skill 0 and it could have easily been skill 1 and then make skill 0 a puzzle/sightseeing skill level instead. Removing skill 1 seemed like a missed opportunity to do something different.
The gameplay seemed very standard to me, locked cages, drop down arenas and spawning monster waves being thrown at the player. The timing did seem weird with lots of pauses, it felt like the spawning did not keep pace with the player combat pacing. The final dome area is really hard, wacky floor detail + small platforms + spawning monsters really close with little room to dodge around.
Overall the first map is certainly a visual treat and something that everyone should have a wander/fight around.
My decision to remove a skill level was certainly not a matter of "macho dickwaving" the reason is much more simple. In previous maps I would sometimes lose track of entity flags being set for easy and normal skill. For example I may have accidently set a monster or item to appear on easy, but set it to normal instead. I've always had trouble keeping track of that, especially in large maps.
I could have just as easily set all entities not appearing in normal, to not appearing in easy, and the outcome would have been the same. It was just less frustrating in the end is all, nothing more.
And ericw, thank you very much for providing a Quakespasm update to support oms3_2. I've updated the readme to reflect the change. It works flawlessly.
Can't get the map to run in either Quakespasm or RNQ. Sorry.
Update: installed the latest quakespasm version that's the map is supposedly compatible with. Upon clicking "New Game" or loading the console and typing map oms3, the game exits to the desktop. Not sure what's going on.
Current Is Too Strong
It's five AM here, so forgive the brief post. I loved many things about this adventure. Loved that I have a sight of the world I will only see next map (and vice-versa), loved the transition between the two maps and variation indoor/outdoor. Loved the visuals, very unique and surreal. You created a new "base" setting and Giger inspiration shows.
To my taste, I think you abused monster teleporting and jump scares. Encounters are always too close, there's no time or space for a real dodge/attack dance.
Anyway, congratulations for the release. I had a great time that ended with a stupid death close to the end. Maybe another day.
In a dark gothic vault somewhere impossible, Tronyn rises from his slumber and announces to his army of goblin miners and builders, "We have work to do".
I am getting awful lag on this i.e. frame rate and sound, which is making it unplayable. Are there some settings I need to use when I load the game? I am just running the engine and loading the map. (it's been a long time and I don't remember nuffink!)
Engines , Command Line And Heapsize
I found the maps very demanding on hardware.
Mike, are you using the RMQengine packed within the zip?
RMQ allocates 256 MB memory by default If i'm not mistaken, so no need to put it in the commandline.
Quakespasm usually runs maps better than RMQ though.
So I recommend using the experimental build in post #25.
I think you should use the argument -heapsize 131072 or even -heapsize 262144 in the command line.
And don't forget to type sv_protocol 999 (in the console) before loading the maps, as ericw points out in the same post #25.
No need for -heapsize argument in the QS experimental build. 256MB ram is allocated by default.
Thanks But No Joy
Runs in a small window and gives a 'no free edicts' error
As I am now off to revel in some Colorado powder for the next couple of weeks, I will try again when I am back.
Thinking Out Loud
Its been 25 days since these maps were released, and now that this thread has fallen off the last 10 news posts, very few seemed to have actually played them. I only count six people in this thread that have left reviews, that conveys to me only two things: The maps were an incredible failure, unsuccessful in grabbing the attention of players, or the maps themselves were simply bad, with confusing layouts and terrible gameplay.
The other possibility, is there is a considerable disinterest in this release, possibly being overshadowed by other, more successful releases and mappers. There's not even a single demo I can watch to see how others played through it, something I was really looking forward to. I'm sure it doesn't help that initially, the map required the use of a different engine other than Quakespasm. I knew that would hesitate some players, but I didn't expect such a backlash about it. I really have to thank ericw though for releasing a compatible version of Quakespasm shortly after this release, I had a suspicion that if I did not share these maps as they are, we would be waiting for who knows how long for another map to emerge requiring limits beyond Quake's normal +-4096. Building past those limits however, seems to be unconcerning for the mapping community at this time.
The whole ordeal really makes me question if I should even continue mapping at all. With so many hours invested in this project only to be faded away into obscurity, perhaps my time would be better suited towards other endeavors. I do not blame the Quake community at all, if anything I blame myself for pushing for specific requirements that most players may not be ready to acclimate to.
Dont Be So...
I think what most people drove off was the requirement of a specific engine.
Having looked at the source now, the part that exceeds bounds could have been avoided in my eyes. Which would have resulted in far wider audience.
I played it again, this time i managed to beat it, and i am totally in awe with the last part, the transparent textures and the broken bits really shine there.
Plus, the hands all over are really cool!
Don't let it bring you down.
It could be timing. I personally saw the map, was intrigued by the screenshots but was too busy to play a huge map. Then I simply forgot to track it down, even now I'm too busy. If you want demos it's best to ask for them up front.
Those screenshots look incredible and I would have played it already if it didn't require to download and install a specific engine to play it. I'll definitely post some feedback as soon as I play it. I haven't even posted a proper feedback on most of AD maps yet.
Yup it's in my queue. The engine thing was a bit offputting at first.
I Can't Get The Second Map To Run On My Computer
Eric's new version of Quakespasm crashes everytime upon startup. I haven't had the patience to track down the source of the problem yet.
The new version works okay, but I keep getting this error:
host_error: mod_loadleafs ~67000 exceeds ~65000
I was mixing stuff up; it was the RMQ engine that kept on crashing Quake.
I Finished The First Level...
But I can't find my demos anywhere :(
I said funny stuff. I noclipped up to a big hand, thwacked it with my axe and said High Five! I loved the fences and the twisted pipes and your lighting was superb. I'm halfway through the 2nd map...I pushed the 4 buttons, didnt see anything so started running around again jumping all over the place (I'm a bunny rabbit in your maps! Its great! PS love the LG secret) and then I turned around and had a major wig out...WHAAAA@A! Where did this come from!!! I had to stop there but I love it so far. I didn't want to put out any review until I finished it but you sounded a bit depressed. Don't be. Your map has a feeling similar to Myst, which is fantastic!
The current pusher was rather clever...how did you turn off the noise?
Oh And I Tried Climbing The Radar Thing...
...fell off landed on a button which caused a bunch of enforcers to pop out...That was a great moment! It's like you knew I would try to climb up the radar to avoid having to take the elevator and then made it where I would fall down right on the button!
Ionous, I think that error is not the OMS3 Quakespasm build.
I uploaded a new zip to quaketastic that has windows + mac + source code: http://quaketastic.com/files/tools/windows/engines/quakespasm-oms3.zip
(but it should be the same as what I linked in post #25)
make sure to set "sv_protocol 999" before starting the map too!
Still Playing AD
Keep bumping this every week or so and I'll get to it eventually :-)
speaking for myself, RL health issues have prevented me from playing in recent times. I have downloaded this map and it's in the same queue as Retrojam 4, Jam 6 and Arcane Dimensions.
I should start playing again in a week or two and will definitely post comments when I do. The specific engine thing doesnt put me off and it looks Quakespasm and maybe even Mark V have new builds that could play this now anyway.
Could someone please put the link to the QS builds(Win, Win+Mac) and the Quaddicted page in Orl's original post?
I'd like to ask Quaddicted staff to add the QS experimental build links to the map description. They are in the comments.
Thanks to ericw for the engine develoment. Also for the links and comments both here and on Quaddicted.
If Ericw Is Ok With That
happy to do it.
Nature Of The Beast
I know it can be pretty tough when you spend so long on a project and receive a very lop-sided proportional amount of feedback.
While engine requirements may sway people away, I honestly think that people are just busy and are doing their own thing. While you know how much blood, sweat and tears you shed for this project other people see it as another quake map to try out whenever they get time.
I think most people here were pretty impressed by the otherwordly visuals of the maps but it's just the nature of the beast that the payoff will never be anywhere near equal to the amount of work involved.
I am a bit new to the Quake community and especially the func_messageboard so I wasn't too aware of the demo recording etiquette (But I will be sure to do so from now on!).
If it helps, there were two things that drew me into trying the maps out.
1) The fact it took you 5 years tickled my interest.
2) The screenshot of the outdoor section was very engaging.
My final thoughts would be I think a few people were driven away due to the lack of skill levels. Some people play easy, some normal...some nightmare...to completely weed out normal is a bit of hit. You spent so much time on the creation of this project, why not a little more for normal skill. ;)
As others said, don't be so judgmental on yourself and continue doing it for yourself more than anyone else.
sure, pasting the following in the topic would be great:
Special build of QuakeSpasm with OMS3 support (windows + mac + source code): http://quaketastic.com/files/tools/windows/engines/quakespasm-oms3.zip
make sure to enter "sv_protocol 999" in the console before starting the map!
Orl - I did play through map 1 and part of map 2 while preparing the QS build, it's on my to-do list to play fully and record demos!
Thank you all for the kind words, I'm very relieved to hear its simply a matter of most people being occupied with real life activities and not outright refusal. If this has taught me anything, its to include all skill levels in any future assignments, no matter what. I hope I didn't come off as selfish, demanding everyone to stop what they are doing to engage in the maps, that certainly was not my intention.
I will be patient, and make sure everyone has plenty of time to go through the maps at their own pace.
I will make you some demos...soon :)
Barring anything unforseen, I'll be streaming this on my twitch channel tomorrow night, in about 24 hours time.
Oh, and Eric, thanks for the reminder. Using the version of Quakespasm you linked, the map now works.
News Item Updated
with links to quakespasm build that supports this map.
Thank you, nitin and ericw.
Starting In About A Half Hour...
Going to do a playthrough on this.
You Don't Leave The Fight Club
Good Show Ionous
I only wish I could have been there when it was live, but it was the middle of the night. It looked like you enjoyed yourself, and took time to soak in the scenery. You didn't get frustrated when you were killed, as you approached the situation different each time.
There was a double barrel shotgun at the very start of the first map that you missed, after you defeated the grunts and knights, at the top of the staircase adjacent to the others that lead to the descending elevators. This certainly would have helped to have, but you did exceptional without it.
Again I apologize I wasn't there when you were streaming it, I would have like to have seen how many were watching and what was said in the comments. The very end of you getting stuck on the bridge twice, was an oversight on my part, hopefully it didn't ruin much of the experience.
I Got Stuck
On the first map and did not want to install an engine to play the second. I can imagine how disappointed you must be but of what I did play my feeble brain was boiling in amazement. Tonight I will watch Ionous' play through and report back.
Okay Orl. I watched the Ionous' feed all the way through. Pretty damn amazing. I will install the necessary port and play this for myself or at the very least make my kids play through it on nightmare and laugh at their folly.
So here's my 2 centavos:
Where the designers behind Arcane Dimensions can be compared to Frank Lloyd Wright at times with their impeccable trims, spot on lighting effects and cleans lines, your work can be described closer to Picasso or your man - Giger. There are many shapes and motifs in your work that are unique in the Quake mapping arena. Nicely non-derivative... but that is only the beginning.
Sock, MFX and their AD brethren have distilled in their maps what is rightly "Quake" and added "spice" to a 20 year old game. Their efforts are infused with the thirst for outdoing what has come before (out-designing id). Artistically, and mechanically explosive in each levels' makeup is the struggle against what is expected - and what can be achieved.
But what you have done in your 5 year project has broken expectations, challenged established forms and has moved into a concrete but almost unrecognizable abstraction. A comet-like apparition that is not seen often enough. Playable, entertaining but uniquely challenging and ultimately - original.
Yes there are some rough patches. But there are some pretty inspired moments. Without SPOILERS - there's quite a big set-piece that arises mid-way through that really blew my mind.
So sock and the gang are the traditionalist, over-achievers in refining level dynamics to razor sharp pops of color and tightly shaped game play. But you are the trail blazer in form and shape and scope.
You have much to be proud of. Quake level design is an art form and you are not a follower or an after-thought. You are a trailblazer. I guarantee there will be significant motifs in future maps inspired by your work. At the very least -- you can claim that your maps are the 'Gone with the Wind' of the Quake mapping scene.
This is not to say that AD isn't very close to the Sistine Chapel of Quake mods (it kind of is) but more to say that art is infinite and inclusive of all wonderful executions -both profane and sublime.
Cheer and congrats.
That was impressive! I used to think that had made abstract things in quake. Now I know, that I didn't.
Tho the map really needs some clipping (floors especially) and often can be cramped in places, I must say that this map is good. Very unusual visuals. The zombie section was absolutely amazing. I think it's the best zombie section I've seen in a long while. I think that type of gameplay suits your style much better than those spawning bunches of different monsters.
I think the map could have benefited from fog, skybox and some colored lighting.
I'm surprised that it was made in jackhammer. I suppposed that those shapes were made using trechbroom.
Great job and congrats on release!
Just bad timing as well - and between one thing and another it usually takes me at least a month to play a Quake release.
Exactly The Same Here
But I will have the time this weekend.
Not time enough!
Finished It Now
The end was great! Loved the zombie part, though I kept falling into holes...I can't see them! gah. Anyways the twisted bits were great. Loved the ending. Very sinister.
Some of the longer reviews left here and on Quaddicted, really tug at my heart strings. I'm glad I was able to provide such a unique experience, particularly in the theme. I have plans for even more uncommon types of environments in possible future maps.
I know many are still occupied with real life, but I eagerly await demo playthroughs from you.
I will try. I'm off work sick atm. Framerate seems to be an issue on this map for me and I have a decent pc
I haven't even played rubicon rumble yet. :(
Recording while playing adds some frustration - I can't reload my usual every-5-sec-nervous-tic saves, maybe it is the same for some others and that explains lack of demos.
Here is mine.
oms3_2 is incomplete, died in zombie part and can't do this all over again atm.
BTW imho everything after SK door could be separate map. From what I saw it was a one way drop without returning path.
As mentioned already maps are a bit too claustrophobic often and floors need more clipping. As it is - easy felt as hard, and hard as nightamre++ to me 8)
Though visuals make up for it. Style is different from anything I saw. Pretty cool.
+1 Quickload Makes Demos Hard...made Like 18 On My Playthrough
cl_democleanuptoamount 32 (default 10) Ya...because since I play nightmare.
I know aguiRe in an unreleased enhanced gl/winquake engines made it so that a demo is always recording to one file, no matter how many times you die and reload the map from a save file.
Played The First Map
I love the theme, very original and alien - Don't see that very much in Quake these days!
The game play style you went for isn't really my cup of tea, but it was consistent throughout the first map and therefore a certain amount of pre-planning and setup can be done to counter the insane ambushes :) I actually think it ends up working because of this. If it had been "standard" Quake game play and then suddenly a brutal as fuck ambush it would feel very cheap. You set the players expectations right at the start and don't deviate from that formula.
A lot of the platforms you move around on are too small and very fiddly. Especially so when you are required to fight on them too. Frankly I pulled off some MLG pro manoeuvres platforming around these areas and again, it actually started to become fun after a while because of the pre-planning allowed by the consistent enemy ambushing.
It is very rare that I will study the layout of an area closely before tripping the ambush but this level I was doing it practically in every area. Granted it was a necessity in most cases to avoid death but still, I found it refreshing and enjoyable by the end.
I think with perhaps a more organic way to introduce enemies into the environment, something like this could work extremely well in the future.
I will get around to playing the rest of it soon, I haven't downloaded the experimental QuakeSpasm yet!
"You Are Sick"
You flatterer :)
Great demo there Daz, your strategic studying of each area before setting off a potential wave of monsters is what kept you alive, not to mention you remain collective under intense pressure when many enemies are attacking you at once.
Be expected to further plan out your course of action for most areas in the second map, but also breathe a sigh of relief as there are not nearly as many places where you can fall to your death, but don't let your guard down entirely.
Looking forward to your second demo :)
Very unique style and theme, loved it! Great atmosphere.
Oddly shaped industrial structures of unknown purpose, a random bunch of factory and spaceship parts dumped onto a scrapyard, and some wasteland vermin/scum settling in. The weird hands, unclear whether also scrap of unknown origin or possibly some otherworldly means of managing the scrap piles. Hazardous materials and parasitic alien biomass fusing and evolving into a twisted hivemind corrupting the place further from within.
Impressive vistas, it's a marvel to look at all the shapes and odd stuff. I don't really like the faces, but the rest is top notch. Maybe even more generic scrap piles would have been good. Underwater ground is pretty flat. It's nice how one transitions from open areas to enclosed dark places, each environment hiding further hostilities. The structure rising out of the water is very cool, too. A twist on the empty water area in the first level.
The nonlinear way in which one can approach each building is nice. Button hunting makes sense here; it certainly allows the player to get a more complete sense of the environment.
The industrial nature of it all comes across well in the sense that it's recognizable but vague enough that, to me at least, it doesn't look unrealistic. Apart from the fact that it's all in ruins and all.
In this regard, the tightness and crampedness make sense. However, it makes movement very awkward most of the time. I realize such shapes and twisted walkways clash with Quake clunky physics and there's only so much one can do about it. Still, on many occasions better clipping (and other movement enhancements; nonsolid bits, additional railings here and there) would have been possible. It's just too easy to get stuck on things and subsequently get cornered by enemies; or fall off structures - into the water if you're lucky; to your death otherwise. This gets annoying if it happens several times in a row.
Gameplay wasn't that much fun for me. I did enjoy it overall, but there were several frustrating situations. The majority of encounters is teleport ambushes, often right in your face, and maybe a little too predictable quickly. Admittedly, with an open layout like these map have, there's little choice.
I played on Hard skill expecting such big areas would be too empty on Easy. Guess that was a mistake. Thinking about it now, it would probably add to the map/atmosphere if there weren't as many enemies overall. In consequence, I had quite a hard time. Some ambushes or traps are downright assholish.
The underwater cave with where you raise the green structure is very problematic. It's easy to miss the biosuit, and the buttons to lower/raise the lift only work once = likely many deaths there, also the possibility of locking oneself out (or in). Should have been accessible continously times, perhaps two buisuits or a respawning one (in sight, not behind the player!), maybe an additional path to the area, e.g. part of the ceiling opening up after pressing the required button.
The final 'infestation' area has a nice twist - having the player be able to only use grenades initially. It's also very cool to see the fenced part, like someone used to live there, eventually to be drained and corrupted by the Shub creature - or maybe they sought refuge there? Unfortunately, the area proved to be very difficult as well. Little in the way of supplies (health) and attacks out of the darkness. The decent into the flesh part is a bit of shame, because it forced me to rush it - pressure from behind, quad, awkward movement, time-sensitive boss fight without cover. Would have loved to take a moment and enjoy the scenery.
I had to switch to the RMQ engine half-way though which made things a little less smooth. Was under the impression my version of QS supports protocol 999, though apparently it doesn't. Shame it doesn't fit into 666 limits.
Started recording demos, but quickly stopped. Instead, you can watch it on stream
for the next 7 days.
By and large a great experimental map with very particularistic gameplay. Not for everyone, but worth checking out for the scenery alone.
OTP with his standard complaint about knights in a non-medieval environment... But here I imagined them not as knights in the classic sense, but some sort of wasteland gangers wearing makeshift armors made of scrap metal welded together - and suddenly it worked in the map's favor.
Apart from the Giger'ish influences, the style also somewhat reminded me of Borderlands, with a bit desolation from that one old Dr. Who episode I watched as a child and probably remember all wrong.
I'm glad to hear you for the most part, enjoyed it. Watching your playthrough, you persevered even in the toughest of situations. As you said, the gameplay is not for everyone and I'm further realizing that. The comments during the stream reflect that very much, most were very critical of certain choices I made, and overall didn't have many positive things to say, other than that the map looked good.
I've come to accept that, that is probably my only forte of mapping, painting a pretty scene. I can't make decent gameplay, and it shows. With such openness of the maps themselves, it was very difficult to insert enemies where they wouldn't just be a sniping target, which is the main reason why I relied so much on teleport ambushes. viewing gameplay footage now, I can see no one likes that.
I'm on the fence of throwing in the towel, considering gameplay is not my strong suit. You can't have a pretty map without strong gameplay to back it up. Otherwise, it just becomes a walking simulator.
And I'm sorry to see that RMQ gave you so much trouble, especially since there was an experimental version of Quakespasm released meant for oms3_2. Seeing you struggle to get it running to your liking, you became frustrated afterwards and a bit reckless, in a sense that you just wanted to get the map over and done with. I can understand that, its not fun.
The sunken ruins that rise up into an entire new section was one of the most amazing things I have seen a Quake map do. There were so many different paths to ultimately get to the silver key...and the fact you are launched into the hand (The most iconic set piece in the map) is just wicked awesome. Thoughts that went through my mind when I went outside was: "I want to be able to get onto one those structures."
I think you are far too critical on yourself and should be proud of what you have accomplished. The frantic underwater search for the button and the 180 degree change of pace with the abandoned brain/zombie section is some really cool stuff!
Please don't throw in the towel as I would be excited to see what you would come up with next!
Yep ORL you are being way too hard on yourself and it's actually making me kind of angry. You shouldn't be pandering to others and their expectations of what a quake map should be. Make whatever the hell you want, nobody is going to complain about more Quake maps in 2016. The people who are giving criticism on here are veterans who have been mapping for many years and people who are pissed they have to use another engine. Seriously just make whatever you want and people will play it. No reason to throw in the towel just because someone didn't think the gameplay was Quakey enough. If anything, find those elements and make them even more extreme in your next map just to spite them.
Killer Of Dreams
I'm on the fence of throwing in the towel, considering gameplay is not my strong suit. You can't have a pretty map without strong gameplay to back it up
Personally I have been holding back on feedback because no one likes to be the destroyer of dreams. Its obvious you have spent years on this project and are a long standing member of the community, but I don't think you are rationally seeing the feedback for what it is.
No map is ever perfect (visually or game play wise) and if you want to make a map that everyone will like then you are going to be making a very bland map! Every map has warts and pimples and things that don't make any sense, but that is part of their character, their charm. Remember you should always be mapping for yourself first and if other people like your stuff then all well and good.
There are many awesome things going on with your map, visuals fantastic, brushwork top notch, re-using of architecture for different routes and raising of the platform structure in the second map, was mind blowing! When you see it for the first time, its just a classic moment.
I think most of the feedback in this thread is saying the same thing and because you have spent so long on this project you are not seeing the wood for the trees anymore!
Most of your gameplay is one thing, monsters spawning really close in tight, trapped or confined areas! Everything is so close that there is no time to use other weapons like grenades or shotguns, the player is forced to use one weapon, the SNG. There is no space to strafe or move around and keep monsters at arms length while using slower or explosive weapons.
There is just no variety of encounters; monsters spawning gradually from distance or standing / patrolling areas already. You rarely give the player a chance to plan an encounter during combat, its mostly reactionary instead of a mixture of strategic and surprise. You say that there was no space to have everything gradually setup, but you could easily bring monsters in from the edge of the map with platforms, ramps or gated areas.
The second problem is scale, it feels like you built everything from the map editor camera's perspective. When in game its just too tiny, the player is constantly running into architecture, catapulting off bumpy ramps and unable to strafe left or right easily. There are tons of excessive floor detail that makes the player camera bounce up and down and awkward to move across while fighting.
it is extremely apparent you have poured a massive amount of time and effort into this project and I think you should have got an outside opinion earlier on. Maybe email another mappers you admire and respect and find out if your map has any game play issues. No one likes to change stuff after it has been worked on for a long time and this is something that everyone struggles with.
The final issue for me was your engine choice, I could not see any reason for the map not being split at the SK entrance down to the zombie area. Its designed as a one way trip and the teleporter back up felt awkward to me. I know the trend in Quake mapping is to make everything so big it takes hours to complete, but the intermission screen does play a powerful role, its a natural break point. Just like books are rarely just one chapter, the same could be said of games.
I think what you have created is visually awesome, the final sections of the second map is mind blowing with its zombie infested chaotic layout and the final rollercoaster ride at the end, it was perfect. Personally I think you should try experimenting more with different encounter setups or try teaming up with someone else. Working together could be a cool way to try different ideas and find other encounter styles.
You shouldn't be pandering to others and their expectations of what a quake map should be. Make whatever the hell you want
Kinda hard to argue with this.
If that's what you consider destroying dreams, you should destroy some more - because it's good, constructive feedback. Better than not replying at all out of some sort of misunderstood diplomacy.
Oh, And Orl:
Don't quit before the sequel!
If you're good at something, stick at it. And you obviously are. I didn't really mind the engine restrictions and loved the rusty scrapyard style. I'll deliberately bypass gameplay flaws already mentioned by others. Your opening post sets the tone: a big endeavour carrying great expectations. When a reward is eagerly awaited, it's usually harder to face unexpected critcism or lack of interest. This might lead to deep disappointment. In fact, the problem lies not in your maps but in your self-centered process. Working on such a huge project alone unavoidably leads to lose objectivity and make wrong choices along the path. You should team up. Teamates help each other for a greater good. The best way for a good creator to become better. Don't give up on impulse. There's no shame in learning lessons. And if you'll ever decide to leave Quake mapping, I for one will miss you and your unique and uncanny style!
Thank You For The Kind Words
Make no mistake, I am proud of what I accomplished, but I suppose I set my expectations too high. Its rather contradicting to say build whatever I like, don't pander to those who think what a Quake map should be like, then release it and be surprised to see everyone says it plays like a pile of ass :)
I guess its safe to say, I'll never please everyone, and I'm fine with that. Just learn from your mistakes, figure out what was mostly disliked and improve on that aspect.
@negke There's a sequel?
The sequel is the descemt further into the evil hellion landscape.
Well, I actually wasn't planning on continuing the hellish scrapyard. If anything, I'll probably explore some new themes that are either rare, or haven't been seen in Quake before.
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