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What Is Wrong With Quake Mapping In 2017?
FrikaC once supplied information to refute some of my idealism about the works of Quake. He said that the greatest Quake works were a means to an end ...

1) Mods like Navy Seals by Gooseman. He was fleshing out his ideas --- Gooseman created Half-Life Counter-Strike, the most popular game of all-time

2) Many mod authors -- like the outstanding Starship map by Neil Manke -- were to pad resume items and proof of talent for a career. Neil Manke went on to do numerous commercial works. (Is Neil Manke dead?)

3) In 2005, Nexuiz came out. The DarkPlaces-base mod that changed everything regarding open source and was previewed across the country at GameStop stores. The goal was to prep DarkPlaces for greater things.

The short version -- many of the greatest works of Quake were done for resumes, proof of concepts or because at the time the Quake engine worked as a great prototype for something greater.

Is this the wrong perspective? You decide!

A proper reply must ...

1) take into account the career aspirations of early Quake mappers or ...
2) the early relevance of the Quake engine to the games industry or ...
3) Demonstrate that a monster count of 79 or less is most suitable for a level, whereas a count of 87 demands too much of the player to retain attention and interest ... or ...
4) say "fuck it" to the idea of someone dictating the definition of what a "proper reply" is.

If you think your post meets any of the above 7 criteria items, please post your thoughts below!
Thread closed? 
1. Every book is a brush set of brushes. Looks like the overdetailing fad finally caught up to the Quake mapping scene. I'm just glad that it did so when the community was mature enough - the results aren't nearly as bad as what was happening to Doom in the 00s.

Still somewhat alarming. 
"every brick is a brush" is fine if you can imagine stripping away all the detail and still ending up with an interesting space. If the space is super-detailed but otherwise essentially a box room then that's a problem because it shows people are considering detail as a more important goal than creating interesting form on a larger scale. 
The Worst Thing 
Is people moaning about free shit to play for a 20 year old game 
If Quake mapping was for anything BUT resume padding, I can only imagine that we'd have an even lesser community. 
I just joined the mapping community in late 2016, and i have to say that i enjoy it very much.

MapJams, twitch streams, people sharing information and inspirations.

also wierd funny stuff like this thread is quite fun. :D

Its great that the quake community has veteran mappers and professional game designers. And that quake mapping can be a stepping stone for a game design profession for those who are ready to work for it.

I think the engine can create amazing stuff,
one of the recent highlights for me was Skacky's egypt jam map. The design and feel of the map was well exicuted, it had a feel to it that the map could continue beyond its borders. 
Picking 4 
Agree with Fifth as well.

In terms of 2017, it looks great...I don't think there is anything wrong with mapping except I feel this community is unnecessarily harsh on newcomers. I find this place pretty unapproachable at first glance (and first impressions are important.)

In order for the community to not completely go stagnant it is important to welcome people coming in with interest in mapping. Yes, it gets annoying when basic questions are asked constantly but it's just the nature of things.

The insane participation of Retrojam 6 gives me optimism for 2017 for Quake mapping. I'll be down for future jams to be sure and it looks like we have an influx of new mappers as well so that's all good stuff. 
I find this place pretty unapproachable at first glance (and first impressions are important.)

It's just a few bad apples. I've seen the mapping help thread full of activity over the last year or so, full of new people and veterans helping them out with things.

The biggest issue seems to be new users creating threads to ask a question. You can't blame them, that is normal behaviour on 99% of other forums.

Also, this thread is silly. What problems? :D Go map! 
I can't wait 'till the 2018 edition of this thread. 
worst thing about it is amazing mappers crushing my self confidence =P

I know I know... git gud, etc. 
people moaning about free shit to play for a 20 year old game

I hope by "moaning" you didn't mean criticism in general. Because whether the content is free or not shouldn't matter at all. 
"what was happening to Doom in the 00s."

Kinda interested in what you mean here, I mean in terms specific specific examples of WADs that go overboard. I've only played a handful of WADs from that era, but I mean, a lot of levels in say Alien Vendetta still look good.

RE: Bloughsbourg, that's interesting--I always found the folks in Mapping Help thread, my go-to when I was starting my first map, very helpful, even in cases where the answer to my question was obvious or where I could have done just a little bit more work to find it. As for the general mood of the forum, there are certainly a few prickly regulars here, but I guess it helps that I've been using the internet since before I graduated from elementary school, so I know a thing or two about trolls (having been on both ends of that equation plenty of times, heh).

Anyway, if anything I'll say 2017 will be a terrible year if ORL and digs don't release another map. 
Alien Vendetta is a vanilla wad, so it would've been hard for the authors to really go to town on detailing.

I was referring to a certain mapping style where even borders have borders, and everything somehow looks even more surreal than in the original game, despite the frequent attempts at realism.

Knee Deep in ZDoom comes to mind, especially the places where the authors simply took the original Doom geometry and added a bunch of semi-random cracks and bumps.

Simplicity is another one - less controversial, but perhaps even more symptomatic, as the underlying level layouts featured in this wad are very simplistic and boxy.

I haven't played this stuff for quite some time, so my examples may be off. 
I'm not surprised FrikaC has that perspective. Disappointed maybe, but not surprised. It's the opinion of someone who thinks more features make a better product. It's simplistic.

The darkplaces engine is a feat of programming, and for him, obviously it was a means to an end. He clearly wanted to build his own experience by creating his own engine, and that meant building a set of features that were not in the original quake. Now, if you want a good engine to play Quake with, not an engine which will look good on your CV, you'll have a lot of issues.

You'll find the aesthetics are incoherent, you'll find a lot of the features don't play nicely with the assets of the game, and you'll be disappointed that projects built upon Darkplaces are not compatible with almost any other engines.

People who have stayed in this community generally don't believe there is anything wrong with quake mapping in 2017. We might have been amused briefly by a proof-of-concept that turned quake into a Rally Driving game, or a sword fighting game, or a platformer, or a RPG, or a Navy Seals game, but we're in it for the long haul because we're happy with quake the way it is, and we don't need it to be something it's not.

This is a great year. Everything i've seen from people here tastefully, even artfully builds and expands on the original quake. At this point in time many of the mappers here are master craftsmen with years, decades of experience. If you think fucking Nexuiz is the best thing thats happened to Quake, i'm sorry, you really cannot be helped. 
Let me clarify that the Mapping Thread is a great asset and I meant what anon described as in a general prickliness. It's apparent in all forums but I guess since this one is smaller it is more noticeable.

Poor example on my part.

Anyway, yeah Jams are fun, mapping assistance is great...more of that and 2017 is cool. 
Amen II: The Amening 
Moaning is what I find a problem. Criticism is fine as long as it's valid and helpful 
TBH, I'm not entirely sure what's the problem here.

So some of the popular works of the past weren't exactly conceived as ambitious masterpieces. Does that make them worse? Quake itself is a hastily assembled mess of ideas held together with bubble gum.

Besides, we live in a different era now. People who mod Quake are doing it because they like Quake, not because it's hot shit. 
I'm A Newcomer 
And I just want to say that Quake mappers/modders of today have taken Quake mapping so much farther than id ever did. Playing through mods like Arcane Dimensions and even the map jams make base Quake maps look like a newbie's first few maps in the editor. There's just no comparison.

It just seems like it's getting better all the time to me. 
To #13 
1. Thank you kindly mysterious stranger for remembering me, you made my morning when I read that comment. And

2. If nothing major comes up, I will have something ready in the coming months. Something big :) 
Too many shitposters is the problem and it drives away people from joining our community. That's the difference between the Quake community and the Doom community and why Doom gets more of the content. 
I don't think you know what shitposting means.

Doom gets a lot more shitposting than Quake. 1 2 
So that's where this post came from. 
Seriously though, Doomworld has enough shitposters. Some even claim that I'm one of them, so I should know.

A bigger community can make it feel like people with the worst behavior are insignificant, unless it's a really shitty community. 
Can't say anything about other Doom sites because I don't frequent them. 
Other way around, Sevin. 
Wow, I see some of the func posts, but what is the mysterious community of quake shitposters that 95% of those tweets are sourced from? A little bit scary to know that exists. o_O

Starting to feel like we're in a bit of a bubble-within-a-bubble here. 
but what is the mysterious community of quake shitposters that 95% of those tweets are sourced from?

OTP's Magnum Opus. 
I'm not 100% sure what the topic-to-be-debated here is. :-)

If the proposal is that Quake content creators are all just portfolio-padders, I think that's pretty indefensible.

First of all there was only a particular window in time during which this could ever have been a useful job-seeking tactic; it wasn't a widely-understood notion when Quake first came out, and it certainly isn't going to get you anywhere these days.

Second, it doesn't jibe with my memories. I feel (with no real proof ATM) that a lot of the mappers/modders/coders during the Quake heyday were college kids excited about games and the internet -- but with absolutely no interest in a game-industry career. Quite possibly that's just me extrapolating too far based on my own experience, but eh.

Finally I don't guess I really care if someone creates a great thing as a portfolio piece. All that matters to me as a user/player is that it's great.

(As for shitposting, I'm always sad when a small community gets all dumb and hostile about trivialities rather than enjoying the fact that there's a group of folks having fun with a common interest. Func isn't as bad as most, but yeah it has cycles of crappiness.) 
Back in the 90s, the games industry had a much more "rock star" sheen to it in the eyes of bedroom modding nerds, because games were mostly made by small teams of geeks who often became rather rich and famous if the thing was successful - in fact, the media was all over this, giving a lot of press to games dev personalities (Romero, Molyneux, Sid Meier etc.), as well as the games themselves.

So, I think the games industry seemed very attractive back then, and a lot of people were motivated to try to get into it.

Nowadays of course, most of the industry is a miserable revolving-door sweatshop full of outsourcing and faceless execs managing armies of low-paid brick-in-the-wall graduates who don't even know what project/studio/part of the world they'll be working in this time next year. 
There is no real issues, but influence of so many good mappers kind of makes it harder to figure out what you as a mapper are personally trying to achieve, or what are your goals.

When it comes to mapping, I just had an idea or ideas and want to see is it fun, will I continue pushing its boundaries or not. I'm glad that some of those ideas worked just fine.. also seeing people playing your own creations makes you happy that you stayed around. Developer's goals and player's expectations are something I need to learn more about. This community is pretty active and that is a really good thing. Not like one other community I was part of back then, community died and I was still making content for it, to a game nobody played anymore.

At least Quake has an active community still going, that is why I want to learn to make something great to those people, and also let the outsiders know too that Quake can be almost anything you could wish for, from the old-school fps game title. 
There's nothing wrong with Quake mapping in 2017.

However, Quake engine coding still needs improvement (and I'm also guilty of this).

One of the reasons why Quake mapping has improved is because the tools have improved. Tools are used for creating, and engines should be used mainly for playing.

The tools have improved because their usability has improved. Their robustness has also improved, but many great maps released in the last year are still compatible with vanilla Quake; the main factor that helped their creation was usability, not robustness.

Just my two cents. Now I need some sleep� 
I Am Wrong 
my contributions have been reduced to the occasional random drunken comment which only reduces my shaky reputation and I need to GO MAP. Unfortunately my only remaining connection to this community is reduced to 15 minutes every month or so to drool over some Sock screenshots and sigh over what once was. What's wrong with Quake mapping in 2017 is RL. 
I keep saying that I will try to configure J.A.C.K. and ericw's tools to make me a dirty phong map but then I just end up warching someone else play Quake on the Internet.

Hey Now.. 
I was taken slightly out of context. IIRC, I pointed out that (most) people that tend to make "total conversion" type projects aren't in the community because they like Quake. They are in the community to take advantage of what it has to offer almost from a tools perspective. There was an army of programmers that showed up when Quake went GPL and then they marched on as soon as Quake 2 was GPL. A lot of works are for the love of the game, my point when we had this conversation like ten years was that's not strictly universal. I don't think that is a controversial statement. For my part, I never did anything to get hired, I just do stuff for fun and to bolster the community if I can. 
I'll Tell You What's Wrong... 

However, it is apparent over the last several months or so that we have some extremes in percieved map quality/output. On the one hand we have highly polished, 'professional' level maps, and on the other hand several somewhat 'newbie' style maps. It is a bit deja vu but perfectly acceptable to me - I play them all.

But I must be a weirdo anyway (a bit like Shambler!) because I never mapped for some aspirational reason, I never mapped for the community; I mapped for me and my kids - For My Babies was not some play on words, it was a fact.

When someone picked holes in my map, if I thought they had a point, I simply put that thing right in the next map. I did not go back constantly 'polishing' old maps.

Wasn't it Carl Jung who said, "Man's task is to become conscious of the contents that press upward from the unconscious." Yes, he did; pretentious twat. 
It's Been Before look at this thread

so, you all should:
1. stop panic
2. go map 
However, it is apparent over the last several months or so that we have some extremes in percieved map quality/output. On the one hand we have highly polished, 'professional' level maps, and on the other hand several somewhat 'newbie' style maps.

....and all the ones in between!! This winter has had the full spectrum of Quake releases from the most noobish to lots of straight up Quakey maps to the most epic, and the plentiful small, simple, but high quality ones are very welcome. 
i didn't find this board unwelcoming
some of the troll comments are harsh, but they have a point, they're not meaningless and for the sake of trolling.

it seems to me that doom mapping is quicker than quake mapping. making a really good map is always hard, though. 
Okay So Having Read This Thread More Clearly....'s complete fucking horseshit. Baker I presume you got hexcalk and madfox to write it for you and then Mugwump to rephrase it into something that approximates English but still makes no sense whatsoever.

Firstly, the title doesn't have any relevance to your post. You ask "What's wrong with Quake mapping", then try very hard and indeed successfully to avoid actually mentioning anything that is wrong with Quake mapping let alone what might be reasons for it.

Secondly, given that the whole thread is a tangent from the title, you list two mods and an engine which have almost nothing to do with what anyone thinks of as actual Quake mapping on here i.e. fairly Quakey Q1 SP (or DM). I suppose Neil Manke's stuff did contain some possibly interesting maps but I for one found the overriding mod content to be unplayably unappealing. Are these the greatest works of Quake?? They're certainly the greatest works of NOT-QUAKE.

Is this the wrong perspective? No, because it's scarcely a perspective, yes it's blindingly obvious that some mods (and maps) were created as resume works, no it's not at all clear how one can contrive "something is wrong with Quake mapping in 2017".

Maybe the title would have been a worthy question on it's own. The only thing I can think of is some mappers getting put off by thinking they have to match AD quality, when decent normal maps are still just as valuable and enjoyable as they ever were (like the Jams so far).

I'm Sorry 
I presume you got hexcalk and madfox to write it for you and then Mugwump to rephrase it into something that approximates English but still makes no sense whatsoever.

But lmao

topher, That's good to know.

I think Shambler hit the points directly on. 
yeah i was going to say, the title says "2017" but all the examples are from over 10 years ago. 
and in 10 years if quake mapping isn't dead somebody will resurrect this thread and shitpost about it too. 
I'm Sure It Has Another 10 Years In It 
Nothing wrong with a thought-provoking conversation. --- Some replies to these kinds of topics will go negative -- that's fine! and expected ..

... anyone can do them, but they don't bring thinking to the table.

Lack of Progression/Building to conclusion

There are few maps or sets of maps these days that build towards a conclusion. Intermission teleporters that transition to the next level were used as a reward or checkpoint.

Lack of a customized experience

Also a lack of specific maps bringing a new experience to the table.

1) Koohoo had a green Chthon
2) Lunsp1 had red mega enforcers
3) One Upon Atrocity had a dragon as the final boss, and fire shamblers
4) ARWOP had hell dogs
5) Marcher Fortress had spiders.
6) Cyberdemons in Event Horizon 
Good job on not including Quoth, Rubicon 2, and AD, aka the mods that have been consistently helped mappers supply new content for the past decade.

Or is this another roundabout way of trying to educate us plebeians about how everything is irrelevant, and RMQ was the savior of Q1? 
You've never made a map using any of those.

You've made 2 maps ever, one of them of was a total boxmap. The other one was quite a bit better.

If you don't mind, I would prefer to only chatter with people with talent and ability or at least bringing critical thought to the table. 
I would prefer that only people who can write a coherent thread with proper arguments post on func, but unfortunately you're still around. 
Theres a proper version of that page here -

I like the tutorial, it still has value IMO. 
Bookmarked, great info. 
You've never made a map using any of those.

Right, this completely negates the existence of those mods. Clearly modified dogs from a Tronyn episode are more important than what AD does to the mapper backend.

You've made 2 maps ever

That's 200% more mappage than you have done. Unless you want that huge black box with 500 exits to other people's map to count as a map of your own?

talent and ability or at least bringing critical thought to the table.

I refer you to the numerous Q1SPs released that I have contributed to by the way of QA. Unless providing feedback to content creators does not require critical thought???

"OTP provides some very good playtesting, to quite a few different mappers - I tend to incorporate more than half of what he suggests."

Just take the fucking loss and shut up. Now that Shambler has pointed out all the ways in which this thread was ridiculous, you're doubling down on the nonsense and utter lack of coherence or any internal logic. 
Remake Quake 
Some of the things in Remake Quake have become standardized staples in Quake 1 mapping:

1) BSP2
2) Alpha textures
3) ericw recently added true rotation to the map compiler

@otp - I don't mind being trolled, I'm a free speech advocate. Trolling is part of free speech. Free speech is important. 
Hey I Thought The Hell Dogs Were A Cool Idea Of PM's 
I also liked the psycho zombies that Necros made in Altar of Storms; it's true that we are all familiar with the attacks of the basic monsters so making them harder to deal with keeps the game challenging.

I haven't even PLAYED AD yet (I know, I know; I'm years behind on playing new maps and am hoping to write some reviews one day) but I'm excited to see what features it has. I've been too busy to do much of anything so it doesn't really matter that PM is MIA, but one of the problems I've always had is getting modding stuff done as I'm only a mapper and not a modder. I'd really like to see more map objects in Quake, Heretic II and Hexen II have a ton of models that could be ported, I don't think I've ever seen the Ballista from Hexen II in a Quake map, but that would be badass.

I hope that was on topic, I don't think the thread was a bad idea or a good excuse to flame each other; I mean it successfully got a conversation going anyway.

P.S. I wish func had a Heretic or Hexen icon. 
Thank is a far better version. 
@otp - A Thoughtful Reply 
I mean this in the kindest way possible -- this is the internet, there are lot of people that enjoy trolling, sarcasm and so forth.

When are being funny, is about the only time it matters -- and a few times a year, you do funny stuff :)

But when you are doing silly ad-hominems, are people really listening? Probably no.

Everyone has a keyboard. It's the internet! 
To discredit OTPs input on this in regards to his supposed lack of content is...pure ignorance.

I knew that when I needed beta testing, OTP would be down to do it and give unbiased, unabashed criticisms.

I knew this because looking through readmes and forum was evident he was favored in this regard.

You, Baker, as someone who has no released maps, are welcome to criticize the content others create. Up until the point to discredit the opinions of someone who HAS created content and play/beta tests...a LOT of maps.

Someone create a script that goes through all the quaddicted maps, find the ones with readmes, and see how often OTPs mentioned. 
Lame Thread Renaming Is Lame 
Are your panties really bunched up that hard, ffs. 
Words Are Hard! 
btw, lame was not meant to be a descriptor of thread, it's just my crap title writing :( 
Renamed Thread Back 
There's no denying that OTP has done good work for the community, but he has also engaged in more than his fair share of seriously toxic behaviour. Adding to that, he has a particularly bad case of wasps-in-his-knickers concerning anything to do with RMQ.

It's something of a toss-up whether his positive contributions outweigh his negative. 
Wasps In His Knickers? 
You're the one breaking out in hives and dry heaving when somebody as much as whispers the word "Quoth" in a 100 mile radius around you. Projecting much? 1234

If we're talking about contributions, may I point out that the top 3 things you will be remembered for will be:

1. A tool that allows people to make everybody's maps look like this,

2. A fork of FitzQuake that adds 1999-era "improvements" while also forcing permanent model interpolation on the player,

3. ...uhh... I'm hearing crickets...???? 
I've figured it out. OTP is Sean Spicer 
A fork of FitzQuake that adds 1999-era "improvements" while also forcing permanent model interpolation on the player

Really, you do need to stop making things up.

Since you're in the mood to go through previous posts, I suggest that you might take the time to go through your own and pull out all the ones where you've made something up and used it as a platform to launch an attack from.

Oh yes, the knicker-wasps are strong with this one. 
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