<pushplay_atwork> it's an interesting topic and yet I have no comment on it what so
ever
<inert> what is needed in that thread is not "oh gee dont let qw die blah" but "these
are the ways we can keep it alive"
<Shambler> well push, i count you as someone good who has come into the community
<pushplay_atwork> thank you
<Shambler> someone who maps a bit, has done some interesting stuff, hangs out and
talks shit
<pushplay_atwork> that's unquestionably the nicest thing that was ever said to me
here
<Shambler> heh
<nonentity> pushplay_atwork, and you've got a good arse too :p
<biff|DOOM3> bah, hes a poser
* pushplay_atwork shakes it a little for ne
<Shambler> <inert> what is needed in that thread is not "oh gee dont let qw die blah"
but "these are the ways we can keep it alive"
<Shambler> yes
<Shambler> well
<biff|DOOM3> see? SEE?
<Shambler> i've tried
<Shambler> moaning about the good old days is hardly relevant
<Shambler> seeing what role the community has is much more important
<pushplay_atwork> I think generally being encouraging is probably the best thing we
can do
<pushplay_atwork> I'm sure there are lots of small things though
<inert> take for example #mapcenter
<Friction> #fapcenter
<biff|DOOM3> never went there, I dont think.
<inert> there are good mappers in there but basically they arent mature or are
incompitable with our community
<Friction> wait, you're saying we're mature
<Friction> inert: REALITY CHECK
<pushplay_atwork> heh
<biff|DOOM3> incompitable?
<inert> biff stfu
<inert> fric u too
<Friction> inert: bees.
<inert> hey
<biff|DOOM3> kissit, honey.
<inert> no im serious
<inert> OH WAIT
<Friction> i'm not!
<RPG|h0t> Considering the massive size of Shambler's posts, it's impressive that there
are no typos.
<inert> not mature, lame
<inert> we're are 9/10 they are 10/10
<pushplay_atwork> I went to the mapcenter community before I started comming here
<inert> k
<Friction> RPG|h0t: considering massive size of shambler's... i stopped reading at that
point
<pushplay_atwork> that place just never stuck with me
* inert goes to mow lawn then to judo center then to Robert Kurson "Shadow Divers"
talk
<inert> bye
<Shambler> rpg: there's plenty of grammatical slackness i'm sure
<Shambler> besides typing approximately 500 trillion words of fps map reviews honed
my skillz
<Shambler> though, i still use 3 fingers to type with lol
<Shambler> and one of those is for backspace/enter only
* nonentity thinks Shambler just types his posts in Word first
<nonentity> I would
<Killes> why do u guys never fight in here ?
<Killes> http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=16318
<Shambler> rooofls
<Shambler> sometimes but not that one
<Shambler> hah
<Shambler> i started the beef thread
<Shambler> i thought that was a pretty good one
*** biff|DOOM3 is now known as biffBATH
<pushplay_atwork> it was funny for a couple days
<biffBATH> jub in teh tub.
<Killes> some aspects such as talking silly instead of serious on the forum are an issue
that pops up on the goth forum i hang out on too
<pushplay_atwork> I like how we don't worry about staying on topic in func_
<pushplay_atwork> it all just flows naturally
<Killes> we do on our site, but we limit our number of threads/topics, were not
supposed to post doubles, supposed to stay in topic
<Killes> saving place and centralizing stuff a bit better
<Shambler> push: a mixture of both is ideal
<Shambler> you've gotta have a balance there
<RPG|h0t> I dislike how someone makes a post on Func and then everyone discusses
it here, and doesn't post on Func.
<Killes> but its difficult, theres the serious threads which are very good if they dont get
spoilt by bickering, and then theres a bit too many stupid threads like "what colour is
your underwear" and other sillness like that
<RPG|h0t> This limits the amount of responses, and creates no log or archive for future
reference.
<pushplay_atwork> RPG: that's true
<pushplay_atwork> and that's what we're doing now really
<nonentity> Indeed
<pushplay_atwork> someone should take minutes and post them
<Shambler> exactly
<Shambler> stop it!
<RPG|h0t> ...which is exactly why I said that.
<nonentity> Well, someone just bung this on func
<nonentity> But yes
<nonentity> Stop, go use the forum 

I dare say I'll be Q1SP mapping 'til the cows come home, although probably with custom engines/Q3BSP type stuff in the future. I don't want to lose sight of what it is that makes Quake special, yet at the same time I often get frustrated at the limitations of it's technology. 

nobody new comes becuase as a mapping community, we're pretty now and focused on a game that only our group plays. plus, despite our focus, we're the least organized, least on topic, and generally the least technically minded save a few souls. 

we're pretty now and focused on a game that only our group plays

that should be

we're pretty subpar and focused on a game that only our group plays

goddamn func_qmap ghosts 

killes should be ignored as to having any type of intelligent input on this topic as he contributes nothing other than the occasional flamewar in terrafusion. remove the morons out the way.</flame>

Also, an issue you didn't bring up is that when members of this community stop mapping, either consciously or due to whatever circumstances, they often still remain regulars of this board and in #tf.

That being said, I think more people need to just make an effort to be more productive. I also think new members coming into quake mapping in particular are thrown off by the hard-to-find tools and rather large amount of knowledge on the subject that we all know but isn't formally documented anywhere I don't know what kind of formal knowledge base would suit this though. 

Also, an issue you didn't bring up is that when members of this community stop mapping, either consciously or due to whatever circumstances, they often still remain regulars of this board and in #tf.

Very true, at least #tf (mabe the board too to some extent but hardly as much) is more of a social institution for people with a long online history together - many people here (including me) have moved on from qboard to qmap ending up here and "lived" in #tf for five years so even if you don't really map anymore you still want to be around.

In any case there are a lot of mapping knowledge on the board (even if a large portion of it might be dormant and need to be provoked by questions to come out) so I don't there's any danger of this place dying anytime soon....and if you want a more active mapping community - then be more active! 

If quality people leave, the only real solution is to bring in new quality people. The trick is how do we attract quality people without attracting too many total people?

There is a maximum size beyond which a forum like this doesn't work. If the group here grew too much bigger, it would get to a point where there was either too much to read in the GA thread, or too many new discussion threads to keep track of.

I think Doom 3 interest is the best way to get new people in general, and I guess the way to attract new quality people is for us to have enough expertise on Doom 3 that they will want to hang out here. For Quake 3 we never had the monopoly on talent that would make us the first stop for mapping questions and such. For doom3 we won't either, but if we have enough experts on the tech and tools, we stand a chance to keep this community vital.

One thing i noticed about Quake though, is that the frequency of releases seems to have stabilized over the past 2 years or so. So that part of our group may have some long-term life yet. 

Another thing you're forgetting Shambler, is age.

How many of the people that used to be prominent, as well as the ones now that were prominent, but just idle in #tf have had to take full time jobs or commit themselves to strenuous university projects?

Alot of the guys that started the various boards (Peej, Frib, et. al) are all older now, probably with full time jobs that demand their almost constant attention.

As for not many quality newcomers, I think Kinn who is relatively new around here (I could be wrong) posted some of the most impressive Q1SP screenshots I've ever seen, just in the last month.

No one wants to make Quake DM maps because nobody (except a few in #tf) plays Q1DM anymore.

When it comes to newer games, I think most people probably have their discussions and questions elsewhere, considering that the people most able to help them probably congregate on the game's official website, or some similar entity.

The only way to get people who have professional knowledge of newer games to hang around here is to a) promote this site on other messageboards b) promote this site inside your maps c) offer those types of people a reason to come here and post (as of right now, they have no reason, because virtually no one around here has any expertise to offer them concerning newer games)

We'll never have a bigger base of users than what we have right now, because this site is obscure, only accommodating to those who conduct themselves in a semi-respectable manner, and extremely disapproving of the mapping newbie.

That eliminates about 99.7% (rigorous computation produced that number, I assure you) of the people who want to post on gaming related messageboards.

The only people who are keenly aware of what this board has to offer are leftover from PeeJ'n'Frib/Qmap, and only because when those boards were thriving, Quake was still the go to franchise for people interested in editing. 

It really has always been more like a hodge podge of people stuck together via common need for information which was difficult to come by when Quake/Quake2 came out due to limited amounts of reliable resources (rust, worldcrafts original site, Quake lab) the people running this shit were in the community....

I for one began frequenting Qboard and #tf because there were no other people I knew who had any interest/experience with these topics. So I think the dying off thing has more to do with the fact that there is so much documentation and support associated with the game tools these days. The communities will pop up around the best source of information, these days the developers offer that information. The mappers, modders, and coders don't have to dig so hard to find each other anymore, the community grows up around the developer.

Anyone ever think that mayhap we were just the annoying newbies. Or really on some level the folks who did custom maps for Doom and Quake were the first game mod newbies, and many of us have grown up now, or been absorbed into the game industry. Perhaps those of us left, who haven't been absorbed just kinda lurk here and dream about the old days....

Really, half the excitement way back when was centered around people doing new things, or making maps which really hadn't been seen before with the game engines we were using....I quit working with Quake soon after Nehahra, because I for me I realised, how much more is there to do with that engine/set of limitations? And honestly, I feel my peak Quake mapping days were well behind the creative curve of such greats as Frib, Peej, Pingu, Iikka, Stecki, DaMaul, ZTN, Dario Casali, the list goes on and on...and I can honestly say back then people were saying remember when, and wasn't it great when...

Perhaps moving on, or growing isn't such a bad thing really, being more open to newbies and other mappers interested in other game engines etc. would certainly bring some spark to the boards, and eliminate some of the need for the standard top 10 "fill in the blanks" threads.

yeah, or I could just be full of shit. 

One thing i noticed about Quake though, is that the frequency of releases seems to have stabilized over the past 2 years or so.

Exactly. I mean, scampie hasn't released any normal Q1 maps in the history of Func_msgboard, so we can count on him to not release any other Q1 maps; especially since he decided to abandon SM82, which he repeatedly said would only take a short amount of time for him to finish.

Furthermore, I don't have a computer that meets Doom 3's minimum specs, and I don't know when I'll get one, so you can count on me to finish all those Q1SPs that I've had sitting dormant on my HD for the past 1-3 years.

Suddenly this quote seems apropos:

<metlslime> You may remember me from such educational films as "I've got a hamster in my pants" and "RPG better finish that map someday." 

I for me I realised.....awe shit you know what I mean....