that the voreling has too much health. It's supposed to die from one dbs shot ffs. 

I've played Quake since it came out, like most people around here, I'm sure. We all know the ins and outs of fighting every single monster in the original game, and I'm pretty sure most of us are overly familiar with the newer Quoth additions too. If you ask me, this is an argument FOR adding z-axis, and other small enhancements. I want to be surprised and challenged, not only by new monsters, but by improved monsters. As long as the mapper introduces them well [as in that e2m5 remake where a z-aware ogre fires a grenade from stupidly far away at the beginning of the map] then I don't see it as unfair on the player.

I still think swimming fiends would be stupid though. They simply don't look like they would be good swimmers. It's hard to be scared of something when you're laughing at it. 

... they don have fins... so I'd rather prefer to see a new monster: a swimming-fiend ;) 

I don't see how z-aware ogres are an enhancement to Quake's simple and pattern-based gameplay. Look at Zelda, those Octorok monsters can only shoot in 90� angles. Would you see it as an enhancement if they would shoot in all angles? It would overcomplicate gameplay and frustrate players because evading is much harder.

It's an important gameplay element. Easy to learn and handy to use. If this "flaw" of the ogre is too apparent in a map, well then the mapper has placed him badly. You wouldn't place a knight on top of a pillar 20 feet away either, would you?

Why not also add "headshots" where the player dies instantly if the enemy hits his upper body (fiend on top, hello). I mean, it's only realistic and totally enhances the game!!! 

Maybe I'm just seeing things, but after playing nsoe, it appears as if the z-aware ogres can shoot grenades with such velocity/range that the player would never be able to replicate, which is cheating, sort of.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.. 

that the mapper placed the first ogre in his e2m5 rmx VERY WELL, so an interesting new gameplay twist was introduced WITHOUT being unfair to the player.

Z-aware ogres simply require a slight shift in approach. Instant-kill headshots would require game-breaking use of god-mode. 

They would just require a slight shift in approach and being introduced WITHOUT being unfair to the player. 

I don't see how z-aware ogres are an enhancement to Quake's simple and pattern-based gameplay

- more caution/challenge/skill/planning etc., which some players might enjoy (after 12 years...)

- it's 2008, nearly everyone uses mouselook, why not grant the same to them poor Ogres ? I find it always silly to see an Ogre frantically throwing grenades above my head.

Easy to learn and handy to use.

always the same pattern - boring / unpredictable monsters - surprise, excitement

Why not also add "headshots"

nice try to generalise, coming soon to the slipgate near you though 

I'm not sure, but i think the non-z-awareness of ogres actually helps them being more dangerous - i can ALWAYS dodge their apples (if there's room), but it's v. hard to keep track of the ones you didn't dodge... 

the mapper placed them right, so they're above me and behind me is wall so them apples bounce back to me and hit me from behind. 

would be nice.

And to blast all of them with a bfg and a rail gun :) 

Is stupid. What I meant before is that monsters should know what liquid is from a purely mechanical POV - drown in water, burn in slime or lava, etc. Depending on the monster type - so fiends would be immune to lava damage but drown if completely submerged in any liquid for long enough. Fiends do have eyes, and I think they need to breathe as well.

Enforcers immune to slime damage?

Z-aware fiends is an interesting idea, so they can leap up onto a 64 unit high ledge, for example.

Look at Zelda, those Octorok monsters can only shoot in 90� angles. Would you see it as an enhancement if they would shoot in all angles?

No, because the player can only move in 90% angles. You can spaz it a bit to get nearly diagonal movement, but that's about it. Quake on the other hand has a fully three-dimensional environment with 360 degree movement in all three axis. It's true that the Ogre can now fire much further than before, so a cap to his maximum distance is probably a good idea. 

shouldn't it be Y-aware instead?

I like the idea of enforcers being immune to slime damage, but then again one rarely sees them (or any enemy period) submerged in slime, if ever.

Death Knights should be lava immune, though, knowing fire magic et al. 

RE: monsters affected by liquids.

Careful here. I always considered quake's monsters as unearthly entities that aren't bound by the normal rules. I think it adds to their appeal. I can't remember who said it, but the best example i heard was someone's description of a deathknight (and i can't remember the exact words) as "waiting behind the door motionless for thousands of years, but ever ready to spring instantly into action with his sword, should anyone disturb him".

I think it makes them a lot creepier to know that they are somehow immune to drowning, lava etc. 

http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60049&start=10&end=10

What you say is very true, but some monsters are more unearthly than certain others. Shamblers burning in lava may be wrong, but Ogres and Knights taking the fire damage is something I'd find appropiate. 

And I agree that a Deathknight being immune to lava damage makes perfect (twisted, arcane) sense.

But the current behaviour in liquids has two things that prompt me to mess with it.

1. Monsters treat liquid exactly the same as air in terms of gravity / whatever. This just looks dumb.

2. They don't die if they fall in, and if the player can't reach them (eg. lava) then they get lost from the killcount, apart from grenade spamming. 

Obvious solution is 'build the map better' eg. put a trigger_hurt at the bottom of pools the player can't enter. But its a waste of an entity and won't affect other maps running under the mod in question - the original maps for example. 

good call, that's the one :) 

If i recall (it's been a long time since I looked) SoA's gremlins had an ugly bodge which did a check for lava at a certain point in their run cycle, and gibbed them if it returned true. 

Would be damaging the monsters a bit, and hurling them out of the liquid (most likely back into the player) to make them appear scalded.

It would be pretty annoying to code and the effect would end up somewhat cartoony, but what the hell :p 

of monsters being able to drown and be burnt

hvent gotten round to figuing it out

somthing with limiting there aair like the player and wutnot 

Re: ijed

Number 1 is fixed by Gyrofying them. Liquids have movement resistance. You can even give them buoyancy.

Number two, I agree, they should drown or burn. This shouldn't be so hard to do. Monsters should just remove self when inh2o= lava.

// Gollum :-P 

http://shub-hub.com/files/images/ogreb.gif

Maybe in the crowd for Madfox' band ;) 

I'd love to see such an ogre in Quake :D