If there is a creator then why are there so many independent religions all with different creators, creation stories, their own myths, etc, and why does the most popular religion Christianity come in so many different flavors and borrow so many of its rituals and ideas from earlier religions??

I'm not arguing there is or isn't a creator.

I look at different religions as unique viewpoints.

For example, I think most people would argue humans are "superior" to, say, bees. But this doesn't mean we can't learn interesting things from studying bees.

Religions tend to be cultures with different practices, viewpoints and ethics.

Let's say all the religions are false, this doesn't mean there isn't value in some of their points of views or philosophies.

Eastern religions have fascinating concepts of true harm of "wrong". Mormons have the idea that the body is a vessel that should be taken care of. Hindus let cows live among them.

If you look at biology, the biggest enemy of species survival is "sameness". And in fact, the reproduction of all advanced life on Earth has been shaped by gene exchange (sexual reproduction instead of effectively "cloning yourself") and mutation.

In human life, culture is most important driver of advancement and the biggest cultural enemy of advancement is "sameness" of thought.

The embodiment of sameness of thought is, of course, "1984" ... top down control and thought police. 

I see what you're aiming at, but it's not about embracing different viewpoints or cultures. It's about allowing grown adults to believe in Santa Claus. When the entire premise of your religion is founded on ridiculousness, the rest of it is automatically of little value.

I will refer you again to my sock drawer elves. We can talk all day about them and all you're going to learn is that I'm something of a mental invalid. There's no value there.

This isn't to say that all religious people are without value - that would be ridiculous and insulting to say. But on the subject of religion itself, I don't feel there's any real value there other than as a basis for story telling or life lessons in the form of parables. That's it. 

There are people out there who believe that there is a god up there, and an afterlife, a devil, and angels and all of that stuff, and there are people like you who believe that there arent.

I would not like to say one or the other because the one thing I do know more than anything else is this:

Not one single man alive truely knows one way or the other. Because no-one has died and then been able to report back.

I must admit though, science is more believable because it works from facts and evidence. 

it does not have to be believable to be true. That's the whole difference. 

Ricky

I see what you're saying but that's kind of weak. People believe a lot of things - doesn't mean they're all worth considering. 

And still sit on the fence.

Stream of conciousness isnt gonna help either.

I suppose I have my own personal (take on) religion. Its nice to think that an all powerful entity looks upon the things we do, and that doing good for others gives love and happiness a place in society.

I just believe in being good, trying to do the right thing, living in peace and all that. And to me that is heaven. I dont need no mass, not fanatiscism, no holier than thou moral tub-thumping, no piece of watery bread, no dresscode, no things I can and cannot say.

I still feel like a christian. I like churches generally because they remind me of when I was a child. They remind me of a time of my innocence.

If anyone challenges my right to sculpt my own beliefs then I reject that. Be they atheists, theists, believers, non-believers, whatever. I just think that we should be allowed to believe what we want, as long as it involves basically everyone being nice to eachother and getting along. 

I dont expect you to agree with that simply because of the Its nice to think that an all powerful entity looks upon the things we do part.

Bear in mind that I did not say weather I believe this to be true or not, and still havent. 

I mostly agree with you but I think that being based on absurd premise does not invalidate something, at least not artistically. For example, The Metamorphosis begins with the premise that a man can be transformed into a giant insect. I can still really appreciate the works of Dante and Milton though I think they're founded on ridiculous premises. For me, there is much in most religious traditions that is of great cultural value (though American evangelical protestantism doesn't give a shit about culture except as something to police - it's megachurches rather than cathedrals there). The thing is that people must distinguish from what creates a powerful emotional response (art, mythology, the props of religion) and what is literally true about the universe.

re: Ricky, I see what you mean. I've met several people who were raised Christian (even Mormon), then got heavily into sex, drugs and crime when they were teenagers, then went back to religion basically for nostalgia's sake to try to undo what they'd done. Funny though how sex and drugs are basicaly fine for rich people (or at least they have to go a lot further before they hit rock bottom) but for people working at crap jobs it doesn't take long to run into the long arm of the law and have external forces impose regret on you, and in at least two of the cases of people I met, have society itself attempt to ram religious reform down their throats. 

Religious Experience:

Taking lots of E's and clubbing with a bunch of people who keep hugging you and telling you how much they love you. Seeing everyone as something to be adored, looking kindly at everyone. Feeling a strong sense of love from everything. Watching your old-fashioned, conservative freinds turn into hippies! 

Ethics != religion (or even a theological viewpoint) 

Socrates warned his prophecy wouldn't be wrote down and we would never known what he ment.He surely ment something by that.
That little god particle.

Religions claim the "I am the one that is",
la illala ilhala,
buddah's shrine.
I think it is a more practical thing this god behaving. If you're in a lucky position you can feel like a god untill your awareness of others, who haven't that luck are already doomed to hell.

I can only find one conclusion to this pathos,
God must be the lost collective sub consiousness. 

come on man, quit with this method of contributing. Brevity may be the soul of wit, but each of your comments in this thread, is basically poking an ant hill from afar, like a condescending fag unwilling to enter into the conversation, but rather only snipe at it. Say something that can be responded to, or leave it alone, superiority complex bastard. 

I like poking anthills and watching all the ants scurry around. 

well Shambler you're coasting off of previous awesomeness, so you have a lot of asshole credits you've hardly used (lol). I guess NE is too as well (though not nearly so much), but I mean, I find it weird to think that people feel like they have the right to be an aloof asshole cause they made some curvy dm map 10 years ago. You've got no credit. If you're an aloof cock, stay too aloof to express that fact to use peons. If not, then talk about it and get down here with the rest of us mortals, so we can respond to your assertions. Internet arrogance is bullshit. BTW if you're trolling, +1 to your awesomeness. 

Tronyn++ 

I'm with Douglas Adams on this topic - (something like) "isn't enough to see that the garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairies at the bottom of it too". 

I find it interesting that every single argument I've heard for the existence of an intelligent creator being has fallen short - every single argument I've heard has a counter argument based in logic, science and/or evidence which seems to nullify it.

I'm beginning to wonder if atheists need to help out theists /deists by playing Devil's Advocate just so we can maybe advance the argument because the theist/deist side seems to have stagnated - they can't seem to come up with anything new. 

I hope I'm not coasting off stuff....I think our community is coasting along just on it being a shared community and a shared history....that's generally good enough from POV. Ntty might be being an asshole but he's OUR asshole, right??

None of my posts here have been trolling, and I genuinely do like poking anthills, although all the scurrying little fuckers are freaky!! 

well, starting from "You've got no credit" on was meant for NE not you. I kinda think that if someone contributes enough to the community, I ignore them pissing me off, to a degree which is proportionate. what I meant regarding coasting for you was based on previous awesomeness you have like 20 free asshole posts, and you haven't used ANY of them. Aka you haven't been a dick once though you have the right to many times based on your community contributions. I've never liked hearing unexplained aloof comments and the club has always been based on reputation, and so long as reputation is based on mapping, release a map or stfu.

My estimation of the average ELEK map was 7/10, he released 5 good maps, so maybe he had 35 free passes, before I started being like k man your contribution to the community is not neutral, infact it's gay. NE, CZG, people like that, their mapping contribution don't buy them a free pass on a FU from me with this aloof shit. If you're not engaging the topic, don't bother. I'm not trying to be an asshole I'm just saying I'll allow asshole shit for the sake of art, but it's 2010 and if you want to be an asshole you need to provide an awesome map or explain your aloof comments. 

 

I like Quake, fish, and cheese. My religion is VONDUR. 

(Btw ... @ MH ... LOL)

I find it interesting that every single argument I've heard for the existence of an intelligent creator being has fallen short

Why does it matter if there is a creator? If there is or if there isn't, what does the answer to the question matter?

I am still here either way and have to wake up in the morning, consume some nutrients, and brush my teeth. ;)

The real irony is that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question but that in the attempt to find the answer to the question that can never be answered: you grow.

People like me view the answer to the question itself as immaterial (and an answer like "42" works just fine for me).

BUT

I get to choose how to spend my time!

What I mean by this is that, I could get all picky with all the various religious and then get on their case and argue with those people and point out inconsistencies. I could even make it a passion in my life.

Now ... the real question: is that a good use of my time? 

I guess what I'm saying is that http://www.celephais.net/board/ is not the same thing as terafusion chat, or whatever. be as old school in terms of referring to inside jokes, as you want. I'd like to say this to you, as well, though: what have you done in the last 5 years? Nothing bad to your personality, career, or talent. I'm just wishing that this could be a place for actual Quake people to talk about actual Quake. You want to fuck around, why is this the place? 

I'd just like to repeat this shit. Put up or shut up. We're living in a world of Negke, Necros, ijed, Willem, JPL, MadFox, Trinca, Mike Woodham, and Q1SP people who are around who never gave a shit about DaPak. Please, scale your comments to what you've done in the last 5 or even 10 years. I think NSOE gives me the right to be a way bigger asshole but you never see me fly off the handle except in response to people like you guys. Jesus. 

Did anybody else stop to think about Pascal's Wager and notice that he confused payoff over infinity with infinite payoff?

If ignorance is bliss, then humanity is already in heaven.