http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60182&start=50&end=50

fytp 

if you design the alternatives in a way that the locations where choice happens are highlighted and the alternatives are styled in a way so they are easily recognisable, the player shouldn't get lost. And even if they are, the moment they get back to that alternative they should remember 'ah, that's where i came from'.

And if that doesn't help, well, you need a nice and shiny automap like descent, that adds another fun&skill factor to the game.

I'm replaying GTA (1) atm, and remembering and learning the map is part of the game. It might be a bit too hard, but it's still kind of fun. Also, exploration is way more fun if the environment is complex - ie. you get free 'fun', only by creating a world.

I don't think the majority of Q players has worse orientation skills than the average gta player. 

It would need custom progs, but I think a cool idea would be to have minions which you could take through a SP map. If you could issue commands like "stay here and defend yourself" and "follow me", you could have fun trying to keep minions alive through a map. Like a Barney type role.

Has that been done before? I know theres the cujo mod . . . 

It seems like this discussion can be split in to two groups, one that is wants to add a lot of stuff like NPC:s, more complex puzzles and what not which to me sounds like it's time to map for another game or at least make a PC/TC. The other talks more about how to use what's already in quake to better effect.

"Not having time" can be rewritten as "that's not what we're prioritizing".

in a retail game at least, you have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

You don't have to - there are markets you can target or you can structure your teams/projects so they don't have to sell a bazillion copies to break even. 

daikatana 

That was done somewhat nicely in FarCry. In most outdoor levels, you could roam around the island and approach the enemies either directly or sneak into their camp from behind. On the other hand, there were no interesting details off those two paths. 

Nobody remembers the best Quake mod ever made?

Nehahra

Granted alot of people didn't like it because it was too difficult thanks to the new AI, despite nomonsters and skill settings, but that had all the tools there ready - soldiers you could take through a map with you, NPC's that would croak out information, NPC's just there to catch bullets, NPC's that were unfriendly or just plain enemies, enemies that could be friendly, misc_items to use to make whatever puzzle system you wanted, enemies that 'swam', Enemies that could hunt a player throughout a map and a pile of other features capable of making just about whatever you wanted.

The shame was it was never really used to its limits. The maps included tried, but the scope of what was there was too big, I think.

Hm. I feel a Nehahra project coming on, after I've finished my current one. 

that was a bit of an overreaction.

I was responding directly to your post, not insulting you:

Something that's bothering me is the apropriate 'level' to analyse gameplay mechanics.

and

I'm always unsure to what level i should reduce gameplay mechanics.

And I gave an answer to what the appropriate level it is that game mechanics should be analyzed, in essence, stating that if you reduce it to the mechanical level you will destroy the element that makes it fun. Let the programmer worry about the mechanics, it is up to the level designer to create a sustained illusion.

Apologies from me if that lent itself to a negative interpretation because I offered the opinion that steering towards academic matters can be destructive (just like they killed Jazz). 

what�s with all the whining in the Quake SP community about too difficult, too large, and so on. Maybe DooM has some sort of gfx envy or similar, but I�ve never heard such complaints about legendary (and ultrahard) wads like HR/AV or the recently released Deus Vult II. I don�t get it guys... 

Granted alot of people didn't like it because it was too difficult thanks to the new AI 

...infact I think I just scratched the surface, first couple of levels. I seemed to be spending most of the time watching the (very funny) cutscenes.

Nyaaah

Does it have dudes which you could take through maps with you? I'll have to try and play it through again!

Sielwolf - People arent as hard as you and I ! 

Who is whining about too difficult? We're talking about map size and engine limits. 

i'd say 'frustrating' to be more specific. gameplay needs to be difficult to some extent in order to be worthwhile, but i think the downside to nehahra's gameplay was that you had to approach it differently to that of regular quake; if you treated the monsters the same as you normally would then you'd most likely get annihilated. you had to act more cautiously in order to get by, which i personally found frustrating (and i'm guessing others did too)

Headthump: comparing quake gameplay to a vagina is possibly the most beautiful analogy i've ever heard. 

...there's a lot of cunts still playing it. 

...because Quake is for pussies 

chortle 

was too difficult for me. I got stuck in that elevator downstairs push-them-crates level thingy.

There are good points. Atmosphere is sometimes important, choices are sometimes important, skill like aim is sometimes important... Exploration is a mix of the first two I'd say. Or maybe it's part of a "learning" and "understanding" experience. Hmm.

You can't really chop down this problem into neat bits now can you. :) 

As for npcs and dialogue in Quake, I think Nehahra took that about as far as you can before it starts getting really irritating, lucky for Nehahra it had a good story and Phil to keep me interested through the cut scenes and in game dialogue, but I can easily see how something not done as well would turn me off totally and go out of my way to skip past it. Quake at the end of the day is an FPS game in the same vein as doom, not Stalker. Its the reason I play it, I know that I can load up any q1sp and get some good fps action without any wishy-washy story getting in the way.

I think another issue here is that many of us (correct me if im wrong please) started playing quake in our teens when fast action was what we wanted, but as I have gotten older I want deeper game play and a good story to follow along with, but Quake still has that golden place in my heart, it doesn't need a story or deeper game play, it is perfect how it is. 

Environments that TELL a story on the other hand is something totally different, and I love to see this in levels!

Like in oblivion when your in some dark dungeon, and you walk into a dimly lit room to see blood on the walls a human skull on a small altar, it really adds a sense that the world is alive outside of your 90 degree view finder, and I think this could be explored a lot more in Quake maps, all the tools are there already, you have a creative mind and an editor, GO. make that nameless place feel lived in! 

telling is brevity. You get in, flash the camera,
and try to get the point across quickly. What Neg!ke did in ZerTM with the camera was awesome and fit the Quake feel like a love glove.

Nehahra's story bits went on entirely too long, even the glorious Seal of Nehahra (fantastic btw) could have used a lot of editing.

BTW,
The Zerst�rer camera code is fantastic and it easy to set up in maps. I have a few example maps using it if anyone needs a look (I was going to send them to Neg!ke, but he figured it out on his own). 

I think adding elements from 2D-shooters (enemies with interesting bullet patterns) would be more favorable in quake than going the NPC fancy story direction. FPS Ikaruga mod anyone? 

yeah design new patterns to bring more tactics and variety into the aim/dodge gamepay

HeadThump the fundamental difference between a cunt and a gameplay is that you can change or create one yourself, and with the other you just have to bear 

that humans are animals. We get joy out of some things just because we are kinda designed to feel like that.

So cunts or games that use our abilities like 3d navigation and killing monsters are stuff that makes us feel good. Or, straight men and lesbians at least.

The cat gets satisfaction of not only eating, but hunting and softening up the food. 

I�m still looking for a code for a camera. I made this new monster, and thought it good to make it function as a camera.
http://members.home.nl/gimli/urb.mpg

Once saw a mod, wherer the player could use some kind of robot to explore the level. It also could be killed at cost of the player's health.
The player could switch between selfvieuw and camera.
Forgot which mod it was.

I tried it with KasCam, but I couldn't fetch the camera to the model. I'll look to ZerTm. If you could send me the code I would apreciate. 

I didn't make any prog.dat changes with ZerTm, but I did make an example .map file for anyone who needed an example of setting it up.
Here you can grab it:

http://mortisville.quakedev.com/cam.bsp

http://mortisville.quakedev.com/cam.map

This one is really simple, as it does a spin around a shrine, there are two entity types that I didn't use that can add some depth to the cutscene, one allows the use of cvars and the other allows a synchronization of written messages. The Zerst�rer SDK shows how those entities can be added.

You'll notice the camera gets jerky when it starts going around the shrine. This can be improved by speeding the cam up.

The cutscene code (source code is also in the sdk) is well documented. However the implementation is dependent on functions in other files. One day I may clean this up and put the code in one file so it can be easily used in any mod, as is it is pretty sweet stuff.