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Keeping This Community Alive And Happy.
Please read this and have a think about.

Another old-skool character and I have been having an interesting discussion about this: About how this community (QMap/#tf community, that is) has changed, how to some extent it has deteriorated due to both losing several prominent members and gaining fewer replacements and being marginalised by increasingly popular newer games, how it's mostly failed to adapt to newer games, but also how being fully integrated with newer games would lose the strong spirit a smaller community has.

And, most interestingly, how it can improve and thrive.

First, consider a few obvious truths:

The community has lost many prominent older members (through circumstance rather than abandonment), and it has gained fewer new ones.

Less people are making less maps these days.

Quake is less popular these days both for players and mappers.

There has been some acceptance and encouragment of newer games, but not much, and very little interaction with wider gaming communities.

These issues will continue to cause a steady decline in the community, I think that's inevitable as time progresses.


Then consider what purpose this community can have and remain true to itself and the original spirit....I think that purpose is to have a smallish mapping community, with a focus on quality mapping, where mappers for all sorts of games are encouraged, accepted, and promoted, but where the smaller size of the community, and presence of some "long-serving" members creates a more intimate atmosphere, where discussions can be more indepth and where people's voices can be heard clearer (rather than being swamped as they would be in a UT2k4 community). And of course where Quake, and other old-skool games, is promoted and encouraged.

So, a more general community than what it has been, but one that benefits from a smaller size, and acceptance of all sorts of games.

I think Doom3 will definitely help in this regard, I think many old-skool characters are interesting in mapping for it, I think - well, hope - that will bring people back in this community, somewhere they can rely on to have a good mixture of high-level discussion and banter about such games without being swamped by 36534534 n00bs in other communities.


What can we do as individuals to help this?? Not sure. Be open I guess, to new games and new members. Have a good idea of what this community stands for (including, quality of produce), and promote the benefits of that to people, i.e. encourage people to partake but make it clear what's expected. Accept various "tangential" aspects into the community, including tangential news. Have respect for each other and recognise the difference between traditional banter and pointless abuse. Don't be forced to contribute anything but feel encouraged to do so, and particularly encourage those who do.

Finally, thanks and respect to metslime for Func_Msgboard, he has really done his bit.
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I Bow Respectfully To The Kell 
And Quake is the game I keep coming back to the most even when the Scags spit too languidly, the Ogres grenades just plop to the side, and the fiends are easily side stepped. 
Title Cannot Be Empty 
But anyway let me help with sm82.
I will, if I need it. Most likely I will. I plan on diving in later this evening after I've done some feasibility research on a few pbrsp2 ideas.

Also, in an attempt to not totally derail this thread into sm82 talk, I just wanted to say that RPG and Vondur are certainly NOT the only ones mapping anymore. Just because people dont change their nicks to <nickname>|mapping in #tf doesn't mean it isn't going on. What have you done for me lately, indeed. 
Well I'm mapping my tits off at the moment trying to get Bastion II beta'd before September. After that, I'm probably gonna do a Q3DM, then check out this new Doom thingamajig, then probably back to Q1SP.

Sometimes I feel a little bit like a hamster on it's wheel, but it's always worth it. 
I just wanted to say that RPG and Vondur are certainly NOT the only ones mapping anymore

as a quick look at my site will confirm. 
To Put It In Context 
In the discussion before RPG's remark there was reference to mappers who started out earlier, several years ago, and how many still hang out on #tf and the func_ board but who do not actively map. So, I think RPG was referring to that fact in his statement and not discounting newer mappers on the scene. 
We're All Mapping. 
it is just taking a long time. :) 
less hate!

more crates 
i say support d3 (and newer related games like q4) when/if its mapping community starts to blossom. but someone already said it earlier so who cares.
my second-hand 2 cents. 
Yeah, Kona Is Back!! 
An Opinion 
The problem with adapting this community is defining what exactly this community is. If you can't do that, then it can only be defined by what it is, which strongly encourages it to never adapt.

1. "Qmap/#tf community" -- I've been reading and posting to QMap/Func since the latter days of TeamShambler yet didn't even figure out or care what #tf was until a year ago, since which I've spent maybe an hour and a half on it.

At times this difference between my perspective and most oldtimers here has become obvious, despite no requirement to participate in both.

2. Quakeworld/multiplayer -- also seems strong in the roots of this community, yet more recently the emphasis has been more on SP. This is natural for an older game of course, since without new maps the SP aspect of a game becomes history.

3. Quake SP -- with those complexities out of the way I'll assume *just for a moment* everyone loves Quake SP. Are there identifyable qualities of Quake SP that can be adapted to an expansion into other games? Or is this again defined by what it has been?

My own experience says no, it's not adaptable. Of course this is not a perfect experiment because this is based on my maps which are certainly not beyond criticism. But, there is an air of resistance. I just deleted most of this paragraph because I'm not trying to start an argument here as to if this is a good example. I think it's a real and actual issue though. In fact, at least one of my maps was never given ANY criticism truly informed by learning to play and completing it; to date only one person has verified proper completion of it and they sang a completely different tune.

The fact is, I'm the same way. It's a busy world and you have to filter somewhere. Still, if someone came here with a map for another game I own and promised wilder play and less BS I'd probably check it out. For example I tried Pax Imperia for Q2, despite Q2 being far from my favorite FPS. It was pretty good, but also an example of another problem: it wasn't good enough that it won't take even bigger promises to get me to try another Q2 addon.

With regards to criticism, there's also another split: players vs. mappers. Players care about results while mappers get hung up on every technical flaw. That is, there's a split if any of the player types are left here. How much of this technical criticism is pure and how much of it is this "air of resistance" I can't say except I doubt it's 100% pure.

I hope this doesn't read like it's all about me, maybe 5 years as a sort of participating outsider yields some useful perspective. Maybe most in this community assumes everyone knows and agrees what it is, if that's true here's one vote to the contrary, I'm still figuring it out. 
Quake, whether by design or complete fluke Id got it right. The game itself opened up the possibility of a long lived forum (or series of forums) with addons, like this one. It will go on for some time yet.

Now...if Id has got it right again (or at least closer than some of the bollox released in the last five years) with Doom3, then I hope that game finds a home herein. Why? Well when I get around to mapping for D3 (and Q4) I want to be able to count on valuable assistance, encouragement and criticism. The same sort of thing I've accepted in the face of my Quake ventures. Harsh sometimes, sometimes kind but in general honest, informed, useful and most of all well rounded. I'll go somewhere else if I desire myopic candy coated BS.

...and if D3 ends up blowing, we can always hold out for Q4. 
I think id actually got it right with Quake 3 -- just like Quake, the lack of any unified artistic theme or setting allowed for lots of creativity in the user community. Quake 2 is an example of pretty much everyone making a Stroggos map becuase the theme was focused. 
The Problem With Q3 Though 
is that it is mp only. 
To most of the world, Q2 is a far superior SP game to Quake, often considered the worst SP, "boring" etc... So there Quake tends to be one item of agreement here, at least that: it's good. But, people always seem to need something to bash on to justify what they like, for some Quake seems an easy target. Here, criticism may be well rounded -- if the game is Quake or maybe another id game. It can not be relied upon to be so fair regarding other games.

The consensus here regarding SPQ is unique. So it follows that our take on other games may also be different than almost anywhere else ... if we can get around to considering them at all.

The issue of theme in some games is easily dealt with by ignoring it (although some themes cause too much limitation of game elements). However, the result will probably not be well accepted in the game's "home" community. So where? I realize this place isn't that big and can't cover everything, but some variants need a home more than others. For example with my Unreal stuff, I was told by Unrealers maybe Quake players will like it, maybe I should have made their dislike clearer ;) .

I lke Q3 too, but the forces that lead to MP-only games have also tended to split the action away from SP games, which many play more to see pretty pictures and the story thing than for serious action. There has been some exceptions, but more specialized, e.g. Serious Sam is mostly about larger scale combat and the monsters aren't near as good as Quake's for little tricky cramped stuff.

I'm tending to worry about all of this less though. The important part is having some good FPS to rock on when I want it. The best stuff is limited but there's still more good-enough than I can possibly consume. 
I can understand why people would consider Q2SP to be superior to Q1SP, but if I recall correctly, there was a lot of negativity towards Q1's single player game even when it was newly released, as if people were expecting it to be a polygonal version of Doom and didn't understand why they couldn't mow down a room full of 50 Death Knights on their 486 DX2's. Never mind the fact that the Quake engine was light years ahead of anything at the time, all a lot of people wanted back then was another Doom-style slaughterfest. 
I Should Add 
Far from becoming stale, Quake actually improves with age, thanks to better compile tools, and faster computers. We can now make huge levels with massive Doom-style combat, that are completely unlike anything that existed back in '97. When people turn their nose up at you for playing/mapping for Quake, well, they're just being ignorant. 
To most of the world, Q2 is a far superior SP game to Quake, often considered the worst SP, "boring" etc

surprised to see yu indulging in such generalizations spentron, normally your intelligence means your arguments are better than this!

and not only is it an over-generalization, im not even sure your correct. I always got the impression q1sp was more popular than q2sp with the "unwashed masses".

Kinn, I mostly agree with your above 2 posts. 
This Site Shows Q1's Vital Signs 
It is the place to go to reaffirm that there is still life in the SPQ1 scene even if the maps aren't coming out steady.

I've been working on a couple maps as Distrans and aGuire can confirm and if the scene died, so would my motivation to finish my work. Yes, you should map for yourself - but sharing is fun and this forum can be counted on for honest feedback.

I keep coming back to Q1 because 1) The user maps are excellent and the range of world themes is endless. 2) Quake doesn't frustrate the hell out of me - I play to relax and have fun and some newer games I find too difficult or too scripted. Also, I like looking for secrets and most newer games don't have such secondary goals. 3) I don't get tired of ogres, scrags, vores, shams etc. 4) I'm hopelessly nostalgic and I can't let go of the 1st time I downloaded QTest and saw a world on it's way that would suck me in for years to come.

I hope it lingers on - slow is okay, just don't die. 
I Can Say That 
as long as q1sp maps are being made, i intend to have them reviewed at my site. =) 
mmm, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :) 
RE: #42 
Maybe it just seems like more people like Q2 if you far prefer the first. However, of people just straight out calling a game "boring" or looking for an example of what they don't like in SP FPS, original Quake may be #1. Q2 is almost never disliked as intensly.

Incidently I do find as a MP game, Q2 works far better through a network than QW and therefore wins. Maybe someone could do something about that, even original Unreal now runs perfectly on dialup (except with all the downloading media you may never get to the game). 
mmm, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :)

No, that's just the bees you ate. 
BTW metslime if I accidentally hit the "Reset" button that's 0.05 mm away from the "Submit" button and lose this post, I will print out the entire archive of Func_Msgboard, fly to America, find you, stick the rolled up printout up your arse, and set fire to it.


Ummm actually I can't be arsed to reply to everything. Respect to everyone showing support though.

There's a few issues I can touch on...


It's nice if people can be productive, but I don't think people should be forced or be expected to be productive just to keep things going. I want you guys to map as I like the maps but one has to respect that you do it for your own pleasure. There should be encouragement without pressure.

defining what exactly this community is

This is a good question to raise. And I can think of a pretty good definition:

A smaller, closer, mapping/gaming community, where the focus is on quality, where new participants are welcomed but encouraged to live up to those standards, where there is less bullshit and more informed opinions, where the interaction incorporates both discussion and social chat associated with smaller communities, where old-skool games are welcomed and encouraged, where individual voices will not get lost in a sea of noise.

In short, it's strength lies in intimacy, intelligence, open-mindedness and quality.

Errr that will do for the moment.

Just keep up the enthusiasm, interaction, and good maps when you feel like them. 
So i should move the button to the side a little bit? 
Submit Here Reset Here

(I hope this works) 
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