|Posted by Shambler on 2005/01/02 09:41:31|
|Quake 1 remade in a new engine, blending old skool atmosphere and gameplay feel with nu-skool graphics and technology?? I think it could be fantastic if done right....so how WOULD it be done right?? One might not be able to trust a gaming company to do it right, but one could trust one of the last bastions of the Quake community to do it, right??
So post and discuss how you think it (hypothetically I'm sure, sadly) should be done...
#1 posted by Friction on 2005/01/02 09:52:55
Just make it have that arcade touch without the arcade looks & aesthetics (Quake 3 is a major offender here)
Some Starting Thoughts...
#2 posted by Shambler
on 2005/01/02 10:32:36
I do have a few specific ideas but also some general thoughts first:
What is important to keep about Quake:
+ Strong atmosphere.
+ Base/medieval/gothic style.
+ Simple visceral gameplay and control feel.
+ Fucked up monsters.
What is not important to keep about Quake:
- Random incoherent feel.
- Lack of story / background sense.
- Crude monster behaviour.
- Specific graphics / themes.
^^^ all of the above also count as "What can be improved in remaking Quake".
I think it would be possibly to retain the feel of Quake whilst upgrading it technologically. Since Quake itself, various games have, in various ways, managed to capture different aspects of Quake enough (e.g. Painkiller, but also bits from Enclave, Q3A, Doom3, and others) to convince me that one could capture the whole of Quake in a more advanced way. Some of what makes Quake Quake IS it's crudity (simple weapons, simple feel, straight-up gameplay), but otherwise a lot of what's special about it is special DESPITE it's crudity, and could be equally special whilst being more sophisticated in both gameplay and looks. More thoughts on that later maybe.
#3 posted by Zwiffle
on 2005/01/02 11:37:45
Yes, I love you. This is the best thread ever. EVER. I'm going to say I don't think Quake should be outright remade; If anyone "remakes" Quake it should just be a true sequel set in the Quake universe, not a remake.
+ Definitely get a strong story going to tie it together. The possibilities are endless.
+The atmosphere would HAVE to be retained in order to keep it Quakey. It's not gonna be all happy and well-lit and still be Quake, is it?
+ Fucked up monsters. One thing I love about the Silent Hill games is how much they remind me of Quake's style, or at least an extension of a direction Quake could go. And Silent Hill has fucked up monsters. Tons of em. I would love to see a Silent Hill influence on the monsters, no doubt. They're scary, creative, wierd, and fun to look at.
+ More awesome weapons. Gimme sumfin' new. The expansions had some "quake realm" weapons, kinda like how HalfLife had Xen weapons. I would love to see more Quake realm weapons. I mean how the Hell is Quake gonna launch this huge inter-dimensional invasion without any weapons, eh? Gimme a Vorehead or something at least.
- / + Base/medieval/gothic. I disagree with Bler on this. One thing I love about Quake is its ability to handle other styles of levels. Don't give me the same things. I'm also kinda tired of Egyptian levels, though I haven't played too many of em. It's just a matter of cliche imo.
I would LIKE to see more metal levels. I thought that was a great style and fit wonderfully in the game. I haven't seen too many of them, but they're wickedly cool. Thumbs up on metal levels and other unique styles.
I still prefer the levels to have the Quakey "catacomb/dungeon" feel though. That's just what Quake has always been, and I see no reason to change it out of the cramped claustrophobic nightmare it was before.
I'm not sure what you mean by " - Specific graphics / themes." You may have to explain that for me.
If some people in the Quake community would ban together... err, I better use a different word in case Scampie reads this...
Ahem. If some people in the Quake community would form a group and start working on a Quake "sequel" I would definitely offer my services. I see absolutely no reason to just "remake" Quake. It should be innovated upon, because there's so much room to be creative AND still retain the feel of the original while tying it all together. Viva le Quake!
This Is What I Dream About
#4 posted by Kinn
on 2005/01/02 11:50:00
If I had the time and resources, I'd be on this like a fly on shit.
#5 posted by Auhsan
on 2005/01/02 13:53:46
It should be a open world game like stalker... linear FPS are dead and buried.
#6 posted by necros
on 2005/01/02 14:25:26
i think monsters would really make or break a quake1 reincarnation.
they must be suitably viscious and devoid of any cybernetics. it's all about the organic beasts.
for maps, i'd say anything goes, really. i'd be all for a painkiller-esque map lineup although perhaps a bit more coherent. a story would be nice, but i'm not sure i'd really demand one as "escape from here with your life" is sufficient for me.
#7 posted by necros
on 2005/01/02 14:33:05
painkiller-esque map lineup, as in many varied locations, unique texture sets for nearly every map. and not "horde gameplay".
quake gameplay is normally about the viscious encounter between you and a few monsters. although hordes are fun from time to time. ;)
#8 posted by Scragbait on 2005/01/02 14:48:47
I can't add a whole lot more in addition to what has been mentioned here but some things to consider are:
- Keep Quake as a codenamed ambiguous evil leaking into the banality of normal earthly existence.
- Either keep the number of weapons down (I find it annoying that some games have way too many weapon types) or limit the number that a player can carry so that you can abandon ones you don't like and pack your favorites. Six or so should suffice. For example, in the original Quake, did you really need the nailgun after you picked up the perf? Expansion packs would add weapons but still keep all the originals. Too cluttered - less would be more.
- Continue having marked secrets that are counted either in level or at an intermission or on a PDA device. Secrets encourage exploration and is a reward for those who want more then just war medals. To be fair, secrets should not be for trick jumpers only (I mean, don't have Painkiller type secrets - keep the Quake tradition here.)
- I like games that have a continous-contiguous world (like Half-Life and most games these days) but to me Quake could still retain it's collection of segregated levels within episodes all linked by slipgates. Quake should make you feel lost, that you are in this multidimensional multiverse, not really sure if you're deep in a planet's core or lurking about the surface of a moon in another universe with no earth. The slipgate concept means that the next level could be light years away from the one you just exited.
- It should have tools and textures and enemies that provide the user community with a lot of creative freedom. If the original Quake was only the 4 episodes and two mission packs, it would have been a good game but would be only a faint memory now if not for it's accessability to both casual and serious mappers and modders. The new Quake has to attract people who like to map and mod or it will be just another play-once and move-on type of game.
- More freaky enemies. Something like those flesh creatures in Hellfire (Diablo expansion pack) or like some of the better enemies in Shrak (Q1 add-on from long ago). The original filty, half-rotted, stinky and blood caked enemies in Q1 felt right.
- I don't mind a more linear flow but not as linear as Half-Life or even worse, the MoHAA series. The original Quake felt about right but some levels could experiment with a more open feel. Perhaps have the odd puzzle level or story advancement level to break up the combat focus.
- Keep lighting important. Consider the geometry of shadows to be of similar importance as the actual surface geometry in this world.
- Find a combat formula that balances fun, fear and strategy. Painkiller was frantic but completely lacked fear or immersion (but could span the spectrum from fun to frustrating). Using either skill levels or some great feat of design, try and produce something that doesn't keep sending players back to a loading screen. Loading screens destroy immersion and atmosphere, lighting and sound cannot provide a sense of escape if the player is either dumped too much or is reloading from saves. I read a good article describing how dying had more purpose in arcade games but with gaming taking on a more immersive quality, alternatives to the die-reload-die-reload paradigm have been succesfully explores (Diablo II and Price of Persia - Sands of Time present two approaches)
- Super graphics are not as important as super design. System Shock 2 did not have great graphics but the game design and story were amazing.
- Make it fun. Make it addictive. Make it a great escape. Keep it simple but sophisticated in the application of design to meet those three things mentioned above.
#9 posted by Zwiffle
on 2005/01/02 15:22:20
I was wondering how the levels should be layed out before the player too. The traditional episode -> levels in linear order seems outdated, but it does present that lost/helpless feeling Quake is good at conveying. You are a pawn of some sort, and following a set path seems like a good way of getting that across.
But then, games like Hexen presented the real-world layout, where you can travel back between levels and whatnot. That also has its merits. It makes the place seem more real. Sometimes you'll activate something which will change a level you've been to already, and the world seems "connected", which is definitely a positive, and can also apply to puzzles/story very nicely. But, this requires a lot of careful planning. A more traditional linear progression could also handle puzzles/story elements, but it would take away from the real-world feel, whereas a real-world feel would add to those elements.
But a continuous world would make level design more of a hastle as well, and mappers that were handling different areas would need to plan their sections together to avoid anything that would destroy the design.
But it's an interesting choice to think of, traditional linear progression linked by episodes or moving Quake in the direction of more modern games: retain the feel or evolve the game.
#10 posted by Kinn
on 2005/01/02 16:24:53
One of the things I "discovered" when I was playing around with porting the Q2 weapons to Quake, was that hitscan weapons like machineguns/railguns just didn't feel "right" IMO. Shotguns felt ok, because although they are hitscan, their power is totally dependant on range. I think what makes Quake so cool, is that even the long-range weapons like the SNG are never completely omnipotent (there's still a chance for the enemy to move out of the way). If the monsters had better dodging AI, this would be even more crucial.
So yeah, I think a Quake remake should focus on weapons that encourage short to medium-range combat.
#11 posted by Vondur
on 2005/01/02 17:20:02
Stygian world and shoggoths pls kthx
From The Looks Of The Screenshots
#12 posted by .
on 2005/01/03 00:18:17
This doesn't look anything like a Q1 revisit, but Q2. Unless Scampie is going to bring all these suggestions to the dev team (good idea, don't see why not), and unless they start to reconsider Q1 or Q2 style.
#13 posted by .
on 2005/01/03 00:19:01
I wasn't implying Scampie is working on Q4, but y'know, being in the same place and all.
#14 posted by -
on 2005/01/03 00:41:24
V stands for 5, not 4. we know q4 is q2's sequel.
I Knew That
#15 posted by .
on 2005/01/03 02:06:49
But I thought this was a Q4 discussion with a typo.. yeah.
In That Case...
#16 posted by .
on 2005/01/03 02:07:52
I'd rather not see a Quake 5, some things you just have to stop at a certain point before the entire name is ruined. It's almost that way with Quake now, but there might be a chance.
#17 posted by Shambler
on 2005/01/03 04:49:53
At least apologise for being spectacularly dumb.
#18 posted by Zwiffle
on 2005/01/03 10:29:45
How the fuck will the Quake V symbol look? I hope it's not broken up into five pieces, that would look retarded.
#19 posted by .
on 2005/01/03 11:22:52
#20 posted by Zwiffle
on 2005/01/03 11:28:34
/me slaps Phait around a bit with a large trout.
#21 posted by czg
on 2005/01/03 11:36:49
I think that's a decent logo. Wouldn't mind seeing quake 5 marked with that if it ever were to exist.
#22 posted by Kinn
on 2005/01/03 12:50:03
It should be like the q1 symbol, but with the curly bit replaced by a roman V, and the spike still going through the bottom of the V - someone knock that up in p'shop, I bet it'd look cool.
#23 posted by Kell
on 2005/01/03 13:09:29
Okay, gimme a few minutes then...
#24 posted by czg
on 2005/01/03 13:14:39
1 - Visual styles:
1.1 - Idbase still with the same basic hexagon shapes. Beige, white and green hues. Washed out concrete against tarnished metal. Horizontally sprawling bases built across a fertile yet empty landscape.
1.2 - Medieval themes; Quake medieval for me has always been seperated from other medievals by being moist and dirty. All the original quake medieval levels feature water in some form, and they feel wet and rancid. Most newer medieval themes in games are very dry and clean, Painkiller for instance has almost no water at all. Also the water in quake is dirty; Leaves float around in it and it is murky and you can't see through it very well.
1.3 - Metal themes, keeping the blueish stone with horizontal lines. Detailing from interesting movements in walls (indentations etc). Even though you can see the sky, it rarely provides any light. I've always imagined E3 like being an infinite structure of stone and metal, a neverending two-dimensional hell, just that in quake we only got to visit a few areas and you never got high enough to view the vastness of the place.
1.4 - The elder world was never realized as any specific theme, but I guess the general feel I get from them is that they are opressive, deserted and dark.
2 - The gameplay style
2.1 - Episodic gameplay, that is one of the things that I hold in very high regard with quake, you choose your episode, play it, congratulations, you've completed another 1/4 of the game! Complete all four episodes to unlock the end!
2.1.1 - Episode progression, you first have to fight your way to the slipgate, then through that dimension, you end up (preferably) on a boss level where you obtain a rune and go home.
2.2 - Fighting with monsters is more often a personal affair in quake than in other games. You know there's an ogre on that ledge above you, and he knows you're there, so now you are fighting against eachother. You're not fighting a monster, you're fighting that damned ogre!
You often fight more than one monster at once, but even then you're not just firing your weapons in their general direction and hope you hit them. You concentrate on one of them at a time and dodge/run away from the others.
2.3 - Weapons are insta-fire, never reload. All the original weapons are loveable imho and shouldn't need to be replaced.
2.4 - Keeping the physics the same. Running up a slope and jumping, mid air turns, rocketjumping, etc. Please please forsake realistic physics for this.
2.5 - Monster AI ain't stellar, they pretty much just try to hunt you down and kill you. Don't bother with retreating, regrouping, setting up ambushes etc, just try to think of novel ways to kill the player. The shambler could for instance notice that there is a lava pool behind the player and attempt to knock him in with a lightning bolt. Fiends shouldn't indescriminately try to jump about everywhere. Ogres should try to figure out where the player is hiding and attempt to fire a grenade around some corners to get him.
3 - The story
3.1 - The story does not really need much deepening than what it was in quake. There's a military facility, they've got slipgates, baddies come through these and take over the base. Fight through the base to the slipgates, go through and get a rune that can open a passage to the final showdown.
3.2 - I've always liked that you never get to find out what the 'Quake' entity is.
3.3 - DON'T TELL THE STORY DURING THE GAMEPLAY!
3.4 - DON'T EVER HAVE CUTSCENES THAT TAKE AWAY CONTROL/VIEW FROM THE PLAYER!
3.5 - DON'T GIVE THE QUAKE GUY A PERSONALITY!
#25 posted by Kinn
on 2005/01/03 13:26:11
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