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More Maps At ..::LvL
Ahhh... maps! A number of great maps in this update. The Dreadful Place was ShadoW's entry in the recent NoGhost Map Comp and was a fine submission. Return to the Cistern is Tabuns re-make of Quakes DM5 and Tech Edge is a map full of detail - and plays well too.

* The Dreadful Place by ShadoW - DM/TeamDM 4 - 8 players
* Return to the Cistern by Tabun - DM/TeamDM 4 - 8 players
* Tech Edge by fKd - DM 3-5 player
* Dark Reign by id Software - DM/Tourney/CPMA 2-6 player
* Ciudad de Torres by Guille - DM/TeamDM 8 - 16 players

30 second videos and 360 degree panoramas for all are available.

On a side note, I have very little details about the id Software map, Dark Reign. It appears to me to be a 'work in progress' that has somehow made its way online. If anyone has any more details to its origin, let me know so I can include the information as a note on the review.

..::LvL - http://lvlworld.com/
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That DM6 remake looks pretty nice. 
Also... 
is that one map really by id Software? THE id Software? 
Pointless 
I'd take a crappy Quake 1 single player map over a nice looking sterile DM3 map 365/24/7.

What are you supposed to do with these maps?

Yeah this is a little sarcastic, but deathmatch against bots is mighty lame. 
Yep 
I too, cannot imagine anyone enjoying something that I myself don't enjoy.

Can we be sarcastic asshole buddies?

Well...not "asshole buddies"...not like that; I'm just looking for someone to threadshit with. 
Single Player Isn't Everything 
But it's so damn close.

That's why I've been trying to push for enhanced Quake 1 functionality (a Half-Life like map format that allows more color), rotation and such.

These kinds of mappers could be using their talents to make something other than "look at my screen shot" maps that aren't actually going to be played by anyone.

It's a resource allocation problem. Seriously. You can make wonderful looking maps in Q3, but you can't do single player.

I find it ironic the whole gaming industry doesn't seem to understand the idea of user created single player levels. 
 
You are forgetting that it is much easier to make a "nice to look at" map than to make a good singleplayer experience. Also I think that it is not uncommon for the remaining q3 mappers to just love building the architecture and looks and not care about much else. 
The Root Of The Problem 
is the compiler tools. Why doesn't the tools understand detail brushwork or cope with properly lit models? I don't want to build boxy maps or wait 1 month to compile something that could take 5mins with Q3 tools. I want to build complex shapes, spice up locations with models, add terrain and plants.

Even thou Q1 has an awesome script language, many different engine flavours, high res texture support and many other cool features, is does not matter because the core compiler tools are dumb. Why would anyone new to the Q1 scene spend days or weeks waiting for a map to compile!?! 
Detail Brushes 
I want.

Model lighting would be good as well. 
Hmmmm 
brutal reception here....

"These kinds of mappers could be using their talents to make something other than "look at my screen shot" maps that aren't actually going to be played by anyone."

yeah... thanks bud

"I find it ironic the whole gaming industry doesn't seem to understand the idea of user created single player levels."

retarded statement is retarded... 
 
Good opener, I see great things for you here. 
 
brutal reception here....

no, it's just baker. he drops in from time to time to cover us in his vitriol. 
I'm Not Critiquing The Maps 
I'm critiquing the idea of the maps.

Quake 3 has far better mapping tools than the game is actually fun to play.

My point is that talent does exist to be used and to create and the outlet of sterile Q3 DM maps is a waste of that talent, generally.

If Quake 3 had single player, some of you could make some terrific single player episodes that people would really enjoy playing.

But Quake 3 doesn't have single player and these maps are architecturally beautiful -- and for the most part -- for the purpose of looking at the screen shots.

It may not be popular to say, but it's true. It is not meant to be taken personally but more of a general philosophical statement. 
Ugg 
sorry man, but you seem like you have no idea at all... i was going to go into detail as to why most of what you are saying is retarded... but whats the point?

carry on 
 
baker, are you saying these maps have little multiplayer value (i.e. layout sucks, bad item placement, etc.) or are you saying that there is no Q3 player base so nobody will ever play them?

I'm pretty sure some of the recent q3 maps are fun to play, whether there is anyone to play them with is debatable, but if the art and design are good enough, I personally enjoy fighting bots for 15 minutes while I appreciate the layout, brushwork, texturing, lighting, etc. 
 
but it's true

except it's not. (hey look, i can assert things too!) 
 
"sorry man, but you seem like you have no idea at all... i was going to go into detail as to why most of what you are saying is retarded... but whats the point? "

It would be nice to get your opinion on the matter once you're done huffing and gnashing your teeth. You clearly feel that he's wrong, please express why. 
 
sorry, did not mean to come off as being mad etc... but ok, i'll give it a shot...

"Quake 3 has far better mapping tools than the game is actually fun to play."

subjective, i and and lot of others strongly disagree about the gameplay, but the tools for idtech3 which have had lots of development through great peeps like yadar etc are amazing, i agree with you there.

"My point is that talent does exist to be used and to create and the outlet of sterile Q3 DM maps is a waste of that talent, generally."

thats just offensive... or am i reading that wrong?

"If Quake 3 had single player, some of you could make some terrific single player episodes that people would really enjoy playing."

with quake live and the old school community still going strong i dont understand this statement. quake 3 is a multiplayer game... thats the point of it. i find heaps of maps fun to play, both with bots, but especially with humans. i would hope ppl get some kind of enjoyment from playing my maps as well..

not liking the fact its not singleplayer again is just your preference... why even comment on a game you clearly just plain dont like?

or something... 
[/gnashing] 
My point is that talent does exist to be used and to create and the outlet of sterile Q3 DM maps is a waste of that talent, generally.

Some people (metl, fKd) have already touched on this, but there are two apparently obvious things that you seem to be missing.

1) There are a lot of people who enjoy MP in general. There are also some people who enjoy playing MP with bots. Those people are getting enjoyment from these maps, and the authors are happy to be feeding that enjoyment. Hardly a "waste".

2) I look upon map design as an art form (among other things), and I would be equally irritated if you were to comment on, say, a Rembrandt with "what a waste; that talent and time could have been used to create something that people could interact with--where's the utility?!"

Nothing says that you have to like these creations, but to dismiss them as wasted effort via an offhand comment about "maps that aren't actually going to be played by anyone" is really ignorant. 
Until 
L4D2 came out three of us in the office played Q3 every day, was always nice to run around inside good maps for visual or gameplay merits.

They didn't buy L4D, so play chess now instead. 
It's Just My Opinion 
It's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

I have my own guiding principles and who knows maybe I shouldn't have posted my opinion. Sometimes I click submit when I shouldn't; sometimes I don't click submit when I should.

And life goes on ...

@metlslime

I'm just saying that Q3 has a massive number of beautiful DM maps that adding some pebbles to the heap in general seems unnecessary.

I was struck lately by loading up the Simpson's Q3 map and thinking how much work it was to make, how beautiful it was and how really the only thing I did with it was walk around it a few minutes out of curiosity and then exit. 
An Apology 
I wasn't looking to offend the author's of the maps. I loaded up Sock's map lately in DarkPlaces (which supports Q3 maps) and was trying to imagine it with single player.

I've had the growing feeling of something that is missing which is the single player equivalent of Nexuiz or Open Arena.

I am, ironically, biased against multiplayer as sort of entry level mapping and a complain that you sometimes hear in various pockets of the internet is that there are hordes of free multiplayer games (Nexuiz, Open Arena, Sauerbraten, Enemy Territory) and really nothing that is a basic high quality single player equivalent (Sauerbraten can't qualify; the licensing essentially makes it solely an engine).

Sometimes I see Q3 maps that look like they'd could be great single player fodder and I sort of sigh thinking the main purpose is to shoot Sarge and Major a few more times.

I wasn't looking to offend any of the authors of the maps; the first post comments were -- perhaps unwisely --- posted on a whim when I looked at the themes, thought about how great they looked and pondered the purpose. 
Count Me As +1 
for playing maps with bots.

And fkd's map is damn nice both visually and gameplay wise. 
Completeness .. 
I might as well say I've played an interesting single player Q3 map for DarkPlaces:

http://forums.inside3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=1423

And yes, I was wrong to rant here. Somewhere else would have been more appropriate than to offend the authors of hard-made map releases.

My apologies. 
Baker 
I can definitely see where you were getting at and I've even had similar thoughts about DM maps in general. I'd see these really nice looking maps and imagine how they would play if they were a singleplayer experience.

But that's only because I don't play multiplayer games - besides a small bit of TF2 here and there; which I get sick of quickly - so I feel like I'm missing out because I don't enjoy them much (mostly because I'm awful at them). 
Baker 
I'm impressed. <--Not sarcasm. :)

I don't see apologies on the internet very often. I think that's because when someone is not face to face with another human being, it's easier to just shrug and say "whatever".

I, in turn, am sorry if I read more into your comments than you really meant or intended.

I thought this was well-put:

a complaint that you sometimes hear in various pockets of the internet is that there are hordes of free multiplayer games...and really nothing that is a basic high quality single player equivalent

There are single-player games out there that you can build for, but most I've seen are either (a) too dated for many people to appreciate (b) handicapped by horrible tools, or (c) too complex, and require too much work and/or too much of a learning curve to get started.

I'm hopelessly addicted to building tracks for Trackmania, which is an excellent arcade-y racing game with a simple modular track editor (and a free version, if you're curious).

While the Trackmania people (Nadeo) are supposedly working on both an FPS and an RPG, I haven't seen any details. I'm hoping that they take their simple-but-deep modular approach to their FPS--it could be amazing, if they do. 
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