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Modern Retro Shooters / Quake Spiritual Successors
Wonder If A Specific Retro-shooter Thread Is Warranted?
#10166 posted by Shambler [92.29.26.135] on 2017/08/27 11:32:00


It is! Separate thread because there's a lot of these sort of games, the ethos of them is particularly relevant to this board, and it's inhabitants seem to have some good varying opinions on the matter.

Quake as the eptiome as 90s action FPS:

Very direct control and physics
Simple streamlined gameplay
Brutal visceral and gory
Weird fantasy / gothic / industrial theme
Grungy, coherent graphics
Cool map designs / architecture (for the time)
Varied but consistent bestiary
Etc
(many of the above adhered to and greatly enhanced by subsequent custom content)

We all like these aspects, we all like these aspects in other games, we all want to see more of those games, possibly combined with modern graphical styles (Quake Chumpions MAPS might be an example of how far this could go) and maybe very limited modern additions (crouching? an inventory? coherent story? - but nothing that gets in the way of solid action). We perhaps want the next Quake / 90s action FPS spiritual successor...

Modern Retro Shooters:

...and lo, there's a neverending stream of modern retro games many of which are unabashedly marketting themselves as 90s action FPS spiritual successors and particularly highlighting speed, direct control, simple action, limitless violence. Do they have what it takes to hit that mark though??

Strafe
http://store.steampowered.com/app/442780/STRAFE_Millennium_Edition/

Amid Evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo7X7b6pPng

Dusk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsu9uDMlIMM

Hellbound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyabhVn1SfQ

Apocryph
http://store.steampowered.com/app/596240/Apocryph_an_oldschool_shooter/

Ion Maiden
https://twitter.com/voidpnt

Neverdead
http://store.steampowered.com/app/681000/NEVRDEAD/

Gorescript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpZ1Wa0OIoQ

Intrude
https://bagogames.com/intrude-review/

Hermodr
http://store.steampowered.com/app/490360/Hermodr/

Devil Daggers
http://store.steampowered.com/app/422970/Devil_Daggers/

Gibhard
http://www.gibhard.com

Without wanting to opine too much, there seems to be a general trend of possibly not hitting the mark despite some attempts to do so, with a huge variety in how much potential those attempts show, as well as how close these games are to realising the overall harmonious game quality of a typical best 90s action FPS. I.e. Some games seem to do some aspects right, but don't seem to get all the aspects in balance and appealing together.

Discuss....
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Doom 2016 
Doom 2016 was closer to the original Doom than Doom 3, so if you want to get finnicky, Doom 2016 is the most oldskool of the two because Doom 1 & 2 are older than Doom 3.

Semantics aside, I personally found D2016 a pretty good compromise between old and newskool norms. Yes it may have arena battles, but you can tell that each arena has been well designed and the monster encounters carefully choreographed and timed, so it's a travesty to compare that to Painkiller that just throws a shitload of the same enemy in to a square arena, or Serious Sam that just spawns a giant horde in the distance and lets it run straight at you. 
The Explanation Of The Bullshit: 
1. SS focused on horde combat, D4 didn't.

2. SS very wide open spaces with little variance, D4 tighter more 3D areas with cover.

3. D4 coherent theme throughout. SS much less so.

4. D4 themed bestiary throughout. SS much less so.

5. So-called pinata thing not the god-mode that morons think it is. Plenty of risks and timing involved. 
 
DOOM 4 was good.

DooM^3 was bullshit.

Hope this helps. 
Gibhard Looks Neat 
I like the lighting and explosion effects (that dithered smoke is awesome). The procedural generation is not just a sticking together of premade rooms but rather premade wall, floor, ceiling, posts pieces that are modularly (that's a word right?) put together. The maker says he has taken a lot of time to get the generation to work in a way that balances randomness with design. I'm assuming that means that he has "sets" of pieces that are more likely to come together in the generation to make room designs that are randomized in size, shape, etc.

I'm intrigued. Sounds like what I would do. Hope it turns out. 
D00T 
Quake 2 at half speed is Quake 4

Quake 2 at 1/8 speed is Quake 4 :)

Aside from the movement speed, visuals, PDAs, and Q2's hub system, Doom 3 and Quake 2 are practically identical. You may recall one of the primary criticisms of Doom 3 at the time was that it offered nothing new in regards to gameplay.

I personally found D2016 a pretty good compromise between old and newskool norms

I agree, especially in the context that it's a contemporary AAA title targeted at the masses and console platforms. I'm not sure they could have toed the line any better within those parameters.

So-called pinata thing not the god-mode that morons think it is.

Speaking as a moron, I would have to disagree. The pinata/glory kill combo is very, very strong. Pinatas + glory kills + chainsaw and you are god. period.

Here's a two minute video of me clearing an arena in Lazarus Labs with only the SS and GK while walking and playing like an xXxGam3rK1d420xXx. I even took my armor down to zero before engaging. Disclaimer: it's only on UV. I reinstalled to let a friend check it out and Id/Zenimax won't let you select Nightmare until you've completed the game on one of the easy difficulties (lol).

Plenty of risks and timing involved.

That's my main gripe, there really isn't nearly as much as there appears to be. Doom2016 is a Doom themed Disney ride - the player's skill level has little bearing on the overall experience. It's a great ride but it gets old fast. Sure, you can self-impose limits to make the game more challenging (no glory kills, chainsaw, grenades, etc) but that's totally lame. Self-restraint is the last thing I want to practice when playing an FPS, especially Doom. 
In That Case 
good thing I (apparently) sucked at Doom 2016 so I could have a blast with it. 
 
Huh. I was sure I played on Nightmare first time. I thought only Ultra-Nightmare (permadeath) was locked out. 
I've Enjoyed 
...every Doom I've played. Including the turn-based Java game for phones. They all have their strengths. I'd say my favorite was Doom 2 but that's because that is when I started mapping.

Doom 3's sound design and positional audio in 5.1 was pretty mind blowing, but then I am a sound design nut.

The back and forth about all this is entertaining tho.

I'm with @lpowell - but I suck at most games. I don't play them for the challenge or the sense of accomplishment... I play for fun. 
Doom³ 
It was fun and no game came close to looking as good in 2004. I bought a new computer just to play it. It wasn't the hordefest that the previous games were but it was cool in its own right 
 
Jesus fucking christ, is there still no Doom2016 mod to remove the pinata shit ? such a simple mod, such a good idea... ??? 
 
Killpixel Next Time Put Ur Name To That So You Don't Get Confused... 
...with anons, please.

Also skim reading your posts you've obviously played a LOT of D4, enough to know it very well, so yeah you might find stuff easier than normal players. 
Also. 
I was lying awake in the middle of the night thinking about what to post about Doom4, and now I can't be fucked. So just imagine my words of wisdom are actually here, whatever. 
More Games For The List 
Project Warlock
Shootrage

@lpowell - If I sounded like an elitist snob saying that only noobs would enjoy Doom2016 then I communicated my thoughts poorly. The gist is that, IMO, Doom2016's strength is more in it's spectacle rather than it's mechanics.

@dumptruck - Sometimes the challenge is the fun :D

@qmaster - Nice find!

@shambler - So just imagine my words of wisdom are actually here

Imagining so hard right now. 
Its* 
Dear Santa,

need edit button, no write good.

-kp 
 
Project Warlock looks alright, they've actually placed some restrictions on themselves. That Shootrage one looks more like a badly made mid 2000s FPS than a good 90s one. 
 
The monsters in Doom 4 also don't look demonic in the slightest. You can tell the designer for them worked on Pacific Rim because they look like kaiju rather than actual demons. The game itself also has proper MP rather than a halo clone. If Doom 3 SP had always run it would be better off. 
Nice Wrong Opinions 
 
 
Try coming up with an actual argument please.This looks like something out of Pacific Rim https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e8/fc/17/e8fc17931e54204b7c0c7273fb44b974.jpg 
Your Face Is Out Of Pacific Rim. 
Post with a name and try again. 
Anon 
You are wrong 
Well 
I haven't played Doom 2016 yet, nor have I seen Pacific Rim, but going through http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Doom_(2016)_Monsters I get the point anon is making. The Possessed/zombies look fairly Doom-like, as does the Baron of Hell (that thing is awesome!) the Mancubus, and the Cacodemon, sort of.

The Hellguard, the Cyber Demon, this guy ( http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Possessed_Security ) the Hell Knight and the Pinky look more like some kind of alien rather than demons to me. 
 
The Possessed Security and Possessed Soldiers look a lot like strogg, I assumed they were a call back to Quake 2 and 4. 
Link To The Right Wikipedia 
http://doomwiki.org

The wikia is run by nazi 
Ampersand 
Get out. How dare you mention those 2 abomin4tions. Don't you know Quake has never had an actual sequel?

(Quake 3 is only half an attempt since it's singleplayer sucked, ie didn't have any.) 
Well This Is A Possibility. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zqjNkdXT94 less of the retro but plenty of the possibility of old skool visceral action. Unlike a lot of these games it seems to have a really strong theme and atmosphere.

Painkiller and Bulletstorm devs, well if they can lose the general hodgepodge hordiness of Painkiller, and pretty much everything about Bulletstorm, it could be good.... 
Great Graphics 
the scale seems a bit whack though, like the player character's two foot tall or something. Could be intentional, but it doesn't come across that way to me. 
 
Looks really nice, but that's the thing... Of all the games i've ever played, Ethan Carter was the only one to ever give me motion sickness. I hope I don't have the same experience with this. 
Witchfire 
Yeah, I've watched this trailer like 10 times already (I'm the filthy anon that double-posted this last night). I love the aesthetic but have some reservations in regards to gameplay. The trailer looks like a very, very, very pretty Painkiller with abilities. Early in wrath, there was an ability, spririt leap, that was basically identical the one one demonstrated in the video (@0:50ish). I had this there to make up for the slow player movement. In the end, boosted player speed was more fun. I feel like that's what they're going for: a slower, somewhat tactical approach. It could be really cool, but I think the gameplay will be pretty slow, but it's too soon to tell. Honestly, with that aesthetic, I'd still play the shit out of it even with Painkiller gameplay :D

@text_fish - the scale seems a bit whack though, like the player character's two foot tall or something

I would bet it's absolutely intentional. Pretty oldschool, too. Not only is quakeguy short, but the camera is in his chest, same with Doomguy... and Duke Nukem... and Caleb... 
Pritchard 
have you tried the Apocryph alpha? They added a blurry effect when turning that gave me a similar sensation.

A supposedly game based on 20 years old gameplay that produces dizziness when played that way is ridiculous. I could only go forward or backwards during the combats due to that. 
Motion Sickness 
1. Excessive headbob = worst offender
2. Motion blur = redundant garbage
3. Depth of field = redundant...your eyes do that for you. 
I Despise Headbob. 
Not least because it is completely stupid fake bullshit. In real life your mind / balance compensates for the headbob in your vision so when you're running it doesn't feel like you're bouncing around all over the fucking place - because hey 40,000 years of evolution have worked that out. Maybe in another 40,000 years devs will work out that something that is simultaneously unrealistic AND wrong AND detrimental shouldn't be in their games. 
Exactly! 
Basic rule of thumb: assume people have poor eyesight and don't need any help blurring things further either through motion, filtering, etc. Don't make it more of a chore to enjoy the game. 
 
That fucking FOV in Witchfire though X_X
The fuck is wrong with people 
Looks Like Console Standard 65 Fov 
We can hope they have an adjustment in the settings. It's a contentious enough issue that it should be standard in all PC/MAC/Linux versions of the game. I'm not too fond myself of anything above 80 or 85 depending on if it is an indoor or outdoor game but to each his own. 
 
That fucking FOV in Witchfire though X_X

Yeah, it's pretty terrible. Hopefully it's just for the teaser to get that cinematic feel. 
 
Its like having fucking glaucoma, I don't understand the attraction of claustrophobic tunnel vision, console OR pc, its fucking awfull no matter where.

Is it due to the limitations of controllers for FPS? then fucking find another / better way to play FPS from the couch ffs. 
FOV 
It's due to performance. Lower FOV = Higher Performance because you have less to draw on screen. Historically the consoles have been less performant than PC rigs.

There is also the "screen-is-like-looking-out-a-window" theory which says that people feel wierd if they can see more "out" their computer moniter than would be possible if it were a window. This is of course complete nonsense. 
 
Heres a fucking solution for the peasants
http://i.imgur.com/MVsUXPa.png

But as you say, historically. Its time to drop that awfull fucking shit. 
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