in a game, all features count. IMHO visual / ambiance is at least as important as gameplay. In Doom3, I was not deceived at all by the gameplay, as I remind how it was difficult to finish some level in Doom already, having to play in the safest possible way, saving after each kill, each corner.
Doom3 is in the direct Doom style, with more tense, more scariness, more fear... How would you react if you were the player in reality ? Would you jump into the melee or would you try to save your life at any price ? Would you run through corridors, or would you progress slowly in order to avoid bad surprises ?
Well, each player has his own point of view, but definitively for me: Doom3 was a success, and I love this game...

... I want to see Doom4 now !! 

i want doom2 again with more grafics!!!

fuck Doom4 :p 

Don't be mean :P 

I would have to say that if its done properly, the graphics/sound enters into the gameplay realm to make even mundane activities fun.

Take Stalker for example, a lot of the factory areas were empty of enemies, yet it was fantastic to just walk through them and explore because the atmosphere was so thick, the gameplay was basicly walking along and not fighting at all, but it was just as fun and involving as a shoot-out.

So my opinion is that graphics/sound is very much part of the gameplay and really matters... ;) 

the only game that u loved also was Painkiller the only problem that Painkiller have is no, exploracion or puzzle is just kill kill kill :\ but the guns and the monsters are fucking cool!!! 

... each player just found what he likes where others just see crapiness... How do you want to please everybody ? It is impossible ! 

Shame of Doom3 was that the leaked alpha had more gameplay than the game itself.

Hopefully in Doom4 the design team won't run out of time for level design and just leave it to the artists. 

yes, you right JPL i was joking :p 

Try an experiment - play a game of Quake in "r_drawflat 1" (or whatever that mode was called). Still fun? No? Surprise!

Yes, absolutely. It should be noted though that I love Quake DM and I play it almost purely for the fun factor rather than anything else.

I probably wouldn't want to play SP with those settings, because I don't find Quake SP anywhere near as fun gameplay wise as DM, so I'd want a little extra incentive ;)

You're still saying that gameplay is the only thing that matters - you're just doing it with many more words. The meaning is the same. And you're wrong.

Look, you understand what I'm saying, you just don't agree with me. I understand what you're saying, and I don't really agree with you. A difference of opinion on an internet forum? Surely not!

We can agree to disagree, but without any offence intended I would say it's fairly ignorant to try to suggest that your opinion is the only one that matters, and that everyone else is just plain wrong. 

The fact that a small niche community downgrades the graphics to mud doesn't mean that the "gameplay is the only thing that really matters" mantra is universally true.

No, but it certainly is indicative of the fact that for some people, the focus lies much more heavily on gameplay than the graphics.

Or, I could counter by saying that when I and my friends play multiplayer games we play in the highest settings our machines can manage. Point negated.

For you maybe. In multiplayer games I'll always prioritise framerate over visuals because it will allow me to experience more fluid gameplay. I might try the higher settings on the first run, but if the game is worth repeat plays then I'll quite likely turn the settings down for more FPS or (in some cases) better visibility (of other players in a DM situation, for instance). 

 

Where are the bees !!!??? 

r_drawflat 1 is not a downgrade. It's a useful feature. Similarly, I don't play chess with pieces painted like characters from the Lion King or The Simpsons. It's too distracting. 

When I "play" UT3 I don't even notice the detail. It's all a blur to me anyway. It's too cluttered, there's too much stuff, not very unified. I tend to get the "big picture" but that's about it.

Of course, I don't play UT3, cuz the game sucks, so all I do with it is go around and look at the detail. I basically got it as a benchmark to test my system.

Having said that, yes, ultimately a game boils down to one thing and one thing only: GAME PLAY. Yes, game play. Super detailed ultra advanced graphics are nice, but are not required for a good game. Period. 

Similarly, I don't play chess with pieces painted like characters from the Lion King or The Simpsons.

Personally I play chess with my brain, regardless of which set I use.

Of course, there may be an essential flaw in comparing a fast paced action game where you should people with rockets and rely on reactions to an ancient game of strategy and thought.


Also, I like the attempt to resurrect the UT3 is good/bad debate, but unfortunately When I "play" UT3 I don't even notice the detail. It's all a blur to me anyway. It's too cluttered, there's too much stuff, not very unified. I tend to get the "big picture" but that's about it seems like a complaint that could also be levelled at life. While I agree that the ability to simplify life to make it easier to deal with would be useful, it would somewhat remove the challenge. 

Dammit shoot, not should.

And it was such beautiful flame bait too :( 

"Having said that, yes, ultimately a game boils down to one thing and one thing only: GAME PLAY. Yes, game play. Super detailed ultra advanced graphics are nice, but are not required for a good game. Period."

That's naive at best. People won't play an ugly game no matter how many times the gameplay makes them cum. 

"r_drawflat 1 is not a downgrade. It's a useful feature."

For debugging maps, yes. For playing the game, no. 

And Quake. And sometimes I even play HL2DM in those rediculous low-G box maps - the graphics suck for those but the gameplay can be fun!!

Hehe - One of my mates has discovered the emulators you can get for old console games - I've had Wonderboy games on my computer this week. (Meh)

But he likes the gameplay of those old platform games!

Personally I think there has to be a balance. I keep having a go at replaying crysis, lured back in by the pretty graphics, but it never lasts long because of the boring gameplay!

UT3 OTOH is GREAT!!!! Excellent graphics AND gameplay. The engine is so FAST that the eyecandy works for me, because it's no trade-off for gameplay.....

:) 

I played QW like this for the longest time. http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7034/rawrns1.jpg Recently I switched to normal textures just as a matter of taste. I like how eg Warsow looks.

But then the sheer tasteless ugliness of many free open-source games made me not try them once.
There is a different between gfx-wanking and ugly. Quake is not ugly, it has dated looks. Just like old adventures, they look amazing if you are into that kind of graphics. They are not ugly. 

i never played QW like this ;) always 24 bits textures! 

There is quite something between gfx-wanking and ugly. 

Look at the Wii. Does it sell like hotcakes? Are people buying this system and playing its games? Do those games look like Xbox360 or PS3 quality? But people still play them? Yes? Ok then. 

Do they look like crap? No? OK then. 

Mii Avatars are hardly realistic. LEGO StarWars looks prettier than your average Mii!

I have a Wii - all it gets used for is bowling. I do enjoy a spot of bowling from time to time. My girlfreind likes the tennis and some of those other kids games......... (?!)