I was referring to the gameplay as the turd. The atmosphere and engine are still awesome, IMO. 

Look at it this way ... replace the Doom monsters with sprite versions of the Quake monsters with the same gameplay mechanics. It would be less fun. 

Duh! 

I disagree, the strength of Quake's enemies is how they are placed in conjunction with the environment of the map, and the vertical element can often be a major factor in this regard. Sure, if you'd replace Doom's enemies with the ones from Quake then it wouldn't really work, but then again the gameplay/enemy placement in many Doom maps seem to boil down to "make a giant room and stick one million enemies in it and call it a day". Not exactly what I'd call interesting, either. 

Doom didn't start with the horde combat during any of the "proper" games. 

"but then again the gameplay/enemy placement in many Doom maps seem to boil down to "make a giant room and stick one million enemies in it and call it a day". Not exactly what I'd call interesting, either. "

Eh, now we're getting off the rails a little.

We'll agree to disagree. 

 

Go play some recent Vanilla Doom 2 wads, like Back to Saturn X. There are some slaughtermaps in there, but also a lot of none horde encounters.

Also one thing to keep in mind, Doom is 90% an arena shooter like Robotron and the like, just with more complex levels and in 1st person. But if you play it on the map with double IDDT cheat and only with monsters that are non-hitscan, it is actually quite playable. One could design levels to work very well with this. 

Thanks for the tip 

 

..but then again the gameplay/enemy placement in many Doom maps seem to boil down to "make a giant room and stick one million enemies in it and call it a day". Not exactly what I'd call interesting, either.

I don't believe that's very accurate. However, it may be rooted in truth in that Doom does more with less (in comparison to Quake); make a box map in both Doom and Quake and I bet Doom will be more engaging.

Warren mention Mathias Worch's talks on the subject, here's some stuff:

Matt's Level Design Retrospective - Doom, Quake and More

This is a pdf of a GDC talk that references a lot of Doom mechanics, including Orthogonal Unit Differentiation. It's brief, but tasty.

Decisions That Matter

A little write-up on Doom by JP LeBreton, a short but good read.

Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom

I'm not bashing Quake, I love Quake. But it's good to look at things critically sometimes; it helps you makes better levels, better games.

Of course, a lot of this is a matter of taste as well.

LONG LIVE DOOM AND QUAKE! 

 

this thread is showing the perfect example of why we closed the previous Jam threads once the jam was over.

---

If people want a DLC pack, anyone who wants to do it needs to organize it. I'd say wait another week beforehand to make sure everyone is absolutely sure of what they want to make/finish and then get a feel for how many others want to submit map updates/post deadline complete maps/new maps and how long it will take. I won't be doing an update or new map, but I know several people want to. 

I'd rather see an all new map jam. As long as the theme isn't too weird, any maps that didn't make it for map jam 6 could just be modified to fit.

I do have a modified version of my map jam 6 contribution in the works, but if it ever sees the light of day it'll probably be as part of a larger map. Mainly because I'm not a fan of releasing multiple versions of a level, it gets confusing. That happened to me before with polygon base. 

Agree 100%. DLC is a fun concept but I can see it quickly becoming an excuse to not get maps in on time instead. 

if people don't want to DLC I don't mind doing a solo release :) 

What if one could only submit a fix only if he/she submits a new level as well? DLC would be for new levels only, fixing former maps would be a bonus for participating. 

Quake's single player gameplay had a bit of a frosty reception even back in 1996. A lot of you young 'uns may not remember that.

Funny how we're just starting to catch up :} 

I don't hate this game, I actually love it, it's just that I finally realised the sad truth that the gameplay was shit all along :)

get

the

fuck

out 

I like it. It is so direct and visceral, as is the player control. Yes the monsters and weapons are simple, but mappers can still put them in stimulating combos.

Think about:

A number of monsters

x

B number of weapons

x

C number of power-ups

x

D number of enviromental hazards

And there is a lot you can still do with the "basic" gameplay.

Also, Quad runs \m/ 

"but mappers can still put them in stimulating combos."

Sort of. I mean, after 20 years, you sort of run out of unique ledges to put ogres on... 

If only if it wasn't completely false, as proven by 99% of Q1SP releases from the past several years, from sock to RRP and map jams. 

You should prepare some Jam for guys who are scripting in QC and give them a task to upgrade or create some new enemies ;) 

"If only if it wasn't completely false, as proven by 99% of Q1SP releases from the past several years, from sock to RRP and map jams."

Don't get all defensive about it. I like Quake. I keep stating that fact. But the fact is, the gameplay is inferior to Doom in objective ways. 

Honestly, this seems like a matter of taste? Many people don't agree that ogres not being z-aware is a crucial gameplay element. Why should it be possible to rate gameplay objectively? Doom does not even have three dimensions or mouse aim.