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Thought 3 - So Why Don`t You Lot Map For More Recent Games Then??
(Apart from Vondur at least he mapped for RTCW).

Sooooo, getting two vibes here....firstly a lot of you guys play recent games (by recent I guess I mean since Q3A/UT, yup I`m measuring game epochs by when Id games are released hmmm), and secondly although some people think mapping for more recent games is as problematic as I suggest, some of you don`t. Thus, why doesn`t anyone here map for anything more recent than Q3A/UT?

A few ideas:

A lot of you do but you map in a professional basis for a proper company (usually making console games it seems heh).

Or you play recent games but you`re not inspired to map for them as you have more ideas and more creative freedom in older games.

Or a lot of the recent games you player are mappable/editable.

Or my issue about the increased purposeless of mapping is quite pertinent after all.

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I'll Use The S. Sam Icon Since I Make A Brief Reference To The Game 
EA killed Rogue and the tools for Alice were never released so I can't map for that.

I seriously wanted to make a map or set of maps for Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project, but that got lost somewhere, and I have so many maps I want to make for Quake that I figure I'll just stay where I am.

I have no idea if The Thing was mappable or not, but UGH! Who would want to map for that?!

Serious Sam 1/2 were fun, but I don't think I would have found them fun enough to map for.

NOLF was cool, but I prefer to map for sci fi or fantasy settings instead, even though the gameplay itself isn't so realistic.

Black & White wasn't mappable, but considering that I got bored of it and never finished it, that's a moot point.

Although I haven't played the full version of Enclave yet (blaragh just two weeks until finals are over) I would map for it. However, there is some question as to whether the tools will actually be released. (/me stares at wrath.)

I think that covers just about all the games I have that were released post Q3. 
Black & White was mappable, wasn't it?

/me = silly 
Black & White 
was it mappable? maybe.

did the voices and creature AI like to quit on me every 15 minutes? yes. 
"(/me stares at wrath.)"

keep staring, I cannot see it anyway. what with the sunglare of my porshe and all.

seriously, I dont even have a car - I just dont give a fuck.

still, there is some pressure from the community, as it were, to release the tools - but we have more pressing matters at hand right now. as I said - when I know something, you lot will be the first I will tell. Or my mom, its either or... 
I Think... 
...alot of people are holding back, waiting for the release of Doom 3 and some proper tools to work with it.

Im not one of them... Im one of those people waiting to save up enough for a new computer all together first... 
i`m waiting for doom 3 creating two quake sp maps ;)
all other games quickly getting too boring to map for. maybe doom3 will be boring too, then i`ll continue mapping for quake... 
Quake. Tasty. Good.

Reminds me of that 'too many leafs visible' error that drove me mad yesterday... 
Alice, Serious Sam, and RTCW are the only more recent games I own, and I attempted RTCW mappery until I decided that a) it was far too realistic b) I`m not really into ww2 recreation maps and c) my few attempts with the scripting produced only unworking errors and problems. I also played with Serious Sam mapping, but I lost interest in the game before I could learn the editor enough to make more than box maps.

And Alice didn`t really hold my intrest anyway, even if I could map for it, the only thing it had going for it was neat maps, and I can make those in q3.

I`d be interested in trying u2 or ut2k3 and mapping them due to their nicer engines, but my current setup can`t handle them at any speed, and most of the reviews haven`t been glowing. 
I Like To Code For Quake 
I don`t do much mapping for Quake1, but I do love to play Jeht and normal quake deathmatch on other people`s quality custom maps. Quake has a solid and simplistic feel that many other games struggle to emulate, what with the imbalance of graphics and wow factor pulling them in the wrong direction.

Quake coding is similar. It`s simple, powerful, and solid feeling. I can do so many things with Quake, and I know all kinds of tricks that I can use to get what I want.

Despite what people think, changing games isn`t just changing a few bits of syntax or style and then you`re off. With either coding or mapping, the code (or map editor) you use is going to be drastically different. Sure, you`ve learned the basics; but that`s an Associates degree and you`ve got to start over on your new Masters. Once you`ve got that figured out (and it`ll be a while trust me), then you`ve got to get a feel for the game itself. You`ll spend the next few months or year utterly failing and learning from it. You`ve got to learn all the traps and foolish tricks newbies pull so you can avoid them. You have to learn the tricks for creating what you want. It`s all there and you`re going to be struggling for a very long time. And you`re not on high demand either. You`re just one of a thousand pigeons flocking to the new games, falling over and trampling eachother to gobble up a few pieces of bread. And then the next new game will come out.

To me, quake1 is an excellent medium for me to carry out my purposes - enjoying a hobby. After all, I`m not being paid money or recognition for what I do; it`s for my own entertainment and the benefit of a small, close community. 
The Tools 
I think the best way to solve the problem of adjusting to new mapping tools is just for everybody to use the same tools. Unless you're doing something exotic in your engine GtkRadiant should be modifiable to do whatever you want. Half the work is done for the coders, mappers (pro and otherwise) get something they know how to use, and game companies would be willing to pitch in some support for the project. That's win win win. 
maybe ppl map for the same game out of habbit ? some coders keep on coding for c64 
Thx For Your Thoughts So Far... 
Esp. RPG and Scampie...

It seems lack of proper tools are an issue too...

Von, why are recent games boring to map for? 
not mapping is boring but the games themselves.
the result of mapping isn`t that satisfying as with quake because your map looks exactly like original game (read aard`s speech). it`s very hard to make the map look original with modern games. 
Speaking Of Aard... 
lots of cube mapping is going on... does cube count as a `new` game?
tho it may seem a step back compared to fancier engines, its certainly very user friendly, it must be doing something right as there is alot of community around it.

Also new games feel like they don`t create a community. Games like Medal of Honor and Battlefield 1942 that don`t even allow you to map for it. They are missing out on a large part of their community by selling expansion packs and not providing any tools for custom content.

Is there any data on whether custom content hurts or helps the sales of expansion packs?

hmmm im off topic now... 
the people who make and play custom content is a very small fragment of the established userbase of any given game, so my guess is that they help sales, by word of mouth. 
I think the more important part (from a popularity standpoint) of a community is the tourney kids. They're a vociferous group whom newbies are likely to want to be like and play what they play. 
do games like MOH and BF1942 have alot in the way of `tourney` leagues?
I myself haven`t delved into that "community" whatsoever so Im unawares as to whats going on in that dept. But with the only "new content" available being through "patches" and "expansions" I`m sure its a whole different ballgame as everyone is limited to those 14 maps that came with the game, those 2 more in the latest patch and the 8 you get in the expansion for another 40$

Maybe I should look into this more myself... but do I care? <wink> 
my opinion, newer games just arent as good as Quake :)

I mean with Quake you can build anything you like and it works, with newer games they are much more focused on a set theme and narrative that is hard to escape from. I believe Doom3 will suffer from this, but not as much as games like unreal2/nolf/avp2 etc... 
"I mean with Quake you can build anything you like and it works, with newer games they are much more focused on a set theme and narrative that is hard to escape from. I believe Doom3 will suffer from this, but not as much as games like unreal2/nolf/avp2 etc..."

On the other hand, I believe that Doom 3 is going to suffer from very restrictive gameplay. At least, if the gameplay movies are any indication. The gameplay looks like it's going to be so specific that you will be forced to map for a certain play style, which looks like it will be difficult to pull off and will get old faster than other play styles. 
Right On Rpg 
thats the problem with many games - restrictive gameplay. Add restrictive style and you got it - game with not much freedom for creative maps 
So Why Don`t You Lot Map For More Recent Games Then?? 
a: only quake has idbase 
Seriously Tho 
quake1 gives me/us a full development kit: we have game code (quakec) to mess around with, loads of existing custom textures (quite easy to edit/modify/add/etc), a large assortment of tools/utilities making tasks even easier, and a good amount of options when it comes to actually building maps. not to mention the actual engine code if/when i ever get a chance to really mess with that.

but personally, besides all that, i`m just not interested in newer games. no game has grabbed me to the point of where i actually go to the efforts of mapping for it (wolf came close, but i found it too restrictive). i dont know if there is an editor with C&C generals (id think so, given previous C&C games` inclusion), as i will be picking that game up soon as i get new system built. 
Why Don`t You Lot Map For More Recent Games Then? 
Cause of hanging on irc, trolling messageboards, and uhhm .. playing so called "recent games" in rather limited free time ?

m8 8 cr8 
RE: Speaking Of Aard... 
well, cube was made as an "editor centric engine" from the start, because I am a mapper myself and wanted something which would allow me to build stuff even more "direct" than quake. I also recognized that getting levels would generally be the biggest obstactle for an entirely new engine/game, and looking at the amount of maps for cube I think I made the right bet :) 
you did indeed :-) 
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