..but then again the gameplay/enemy placement in many Doom maps seem to boil down to "make a giant room and stick one million enemies in it and call it a day". Not exactly what I'd call interesting, either.

I don't believe that's very accurate. However, it may be rooted in truth in that Doom does more with less (in comparison to Quake); make a box map in both Doom and Quake and I bet Doom will be more engaging.

Warren mention Mathias Worch's talks on the subject, here's some stuff:

Matt's Level Design Retrospective - Doom, Quake and More

This is a pdf of a GDC talk that references a lot of Doom mechanics, including Orthogonal Unit Differentiation. It's brief, but tasty.

Decisions That Matter

A little write-up on Doom by JP LeBreton, a short but good read.

Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom

I'm not bashing Quake, I love Quake. But it's good to look at things critically sometimes; it helps you makes better levels, better games.

Of course, a lot of this is a matter of taste as well.

LONG LIVE DOOM AND QUAKE! 

 

this thread is showing the perfect example of why we closed the previous Jam threads once the jam was over.

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If people want a DLC pack, anyone who wants to do it needs to organize it. I'd say wait another week beforehand to make sure everyone is absolutely sure of what they want to make/finish and then get a feel for how many others want to submit map updates/post deadline complete maps/new maps and how long it will take. I won't be doing an update or new map, but I know several people want to. 

I'd rather see an all new map jam. As long as the theme isn't too weird, any maps that didn't make it for map jam 6 could just be modified to fit.

I do have a modified version of my map jam 6 contribution in the works, but if it ever sees the light of day it'll probably be as part of a larger map. Mainly because I'm not a fan of releasing multiple versions of a level, it gets confusing. That happened to me before with polygon base. 

Agree 100%. DLC is a fun concept but I can see it quickly becoming an excuse to not get maps in on time instead. 

if people don't want to DLC I don't mind doing a solo release :) 

What if one could only submit a fix only if he/she submits a new level as well? DLC would be for new levels only, fixing former maps would be a bonus for participating. 

Quake's single player gameplay had a bit of a frosty reception even back in 1996. A lot of you young 'uns may not remember that.

Funny how we're just starting to catch up :} 

I don't hate this game, I actually love it, it's just that I finally realised the sad truth that the gameplay was shit all along :)

get

the

fuck

out 

I like it. It is so direct and visceral, as is the player control. Yes the monsters and weapons are simple, but mappers can still put them in stimulating combos.

Think about:

A number of monsters

x

B number of weapons

x

C number of power-ups

x

D number of enviromental hazards

And there is a lot you can still do with the "basic" gameplay.

Also, Quad runs \m/ 

"but mappers can still put them in stimulating combos."

Sort of. I mean, after 20 years, you sort of run out of unique ledges to put ogres on... 

If only if it wasn't completely false, as proven by 99% of Q1SP releases from the past several years, from sock to RRP and map jams. 

You should prepare some Jam for guys who are scripting in QC and give them a task to upgrade or create some new enemies ;) 

"If only if it wasn't completely false, as proven by 99% of Q1SP releases from the past several years, from sock to RRP and map jams."

Don't get all defensive about it. I like Quake. I keep stating that fact. But the fact is, the gameplay is inferior to Doom in objective ways. 

Honestly, this seems like a matter of taste? Many people don't agree that ogres not being z-aware is a crucial gameplay element. Why should it be possible to rate gameplay objectively? Doom does not even have three dimensions or mouse aim. 

Saying the gameplay in Quake is objectively inferior is a fallacy considering it's entirely subjective whether one would think so or not. For instance, I enjoy Quake because of the freedom of movement it allows, which is nowhere near as prominent in Doom - does this mean the gameplay in Doom is objectively worse than Quake? No, because even though I love Quake for its physics and frantic movement, other people might enjoy either game for a variety of other reasons. 

Yeah, the movement alone is a major plus of quake to me. 

 

If you can't make it work, you're not trying hard enough.

An exercise I like to do to get the LD juieces flowing is taking one enemy type and seeing how many blockout areas I can build around it, just showing off its gameplay implications. I try to go to the extremes; say, 20 areas or more.

Once I've got that done for a handful of enemies I'll start doing the same but with two enemy types, of limited numbers.

So;

Build 20 areas with 2 Grunts.
Build 20 areas with 1 Ogre.
Build 10 areas with 1 Grunt and 1 Ogre.
Build 10 areas with 3 Grunts and 1 Ogre.
Build 10 areas with 1 Grunt and 2 Ogres.

This would be pointless without the one golden rule:

Each Area Must Challenge the Player in a Different Way

These types of studies are done in many fields, but in Q1 custom levels it seems they're only really done for visuals. Occasionally someone will sneak out a test map which plays with this type of stuff, but its rare.

The big assumption seems to be that everything is known about the monsters and there is nothing more to learn. Try applying the same yardstick to, say, chess, and see how far you get.

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If you want to get specific about why Doom beats Quake on monster variety then for me its a simple answer: more projectiles. The Quake Quake then stabs Doom in the balls however because it has true 3d space - specifically the Scrag and Ogre make great use of this, as long as cleverly placed.

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Also, Angry Birds 2 is shit. Any block that is knocked over breaks upon touching another, removing the domino effect that made the very first one compelling. 

This jam pack is awesome !

Ionous map is my favorite (feel so freakingly out of this world !), followed by Scampie's.

Ionous, did you said that you will update your map ? 

Yeah need to play this, looks extremely cool from all the shots. 

"The big assumption seems to be that everything is known about the monsters and there is nothing more to learn. Try applying the same yardstick to, say, chess, and see how far you get."

Thanks, I think this caps it off for me. Sorry for the de-rail! 

I really wanted my map to be in a package
Seems like I have to take a whole month to make a map :c

Time to dig it deep 

I sensed my fear of heights by standing on ionous' map and looking up. Hence the word "vertigo" in my review. 

RetroJam3 had only 2 maps, the "dlc" had 3, but it was released very soon after.

It seems there are at least two mappers that missed the Jam6 deadline. That alone is enough for a "dlc" or a separate map jam. Nothing prevents you from getting together and doing either. You will need to actually finish those maps though :)