Regarding the population density that HeadThump mentioned: The state of North Carolina has a population of 8 million people, but only 3 million of those live in a city larger than 20 thousand people. So that's 5 million people who either live in a town so small it basically has no public transportation, or who don't live in a town at all. Cars are pretty important to those people. 

a few points on public transit, which i think might have already been said:

- public transit only works in areas with enough population density to support it. A lot of the united states is wide open, low-density.

- if gas is historically cheap, the transport services and infrastructure will be designed around cheap gas. Economics don't support doing otherwise.

- likewise, people make personal choices about where to live and work and whether to buy a car based on how much things cost. If gas is cheap, it's more practical to live in a better house on cheaper land. 

In general, the price of a natural non-endless product, whatever it is (and for sure gas is THE good exemple of 21th century begining), can only increase with time...
According to economic papers, gas barrel price could increase up to 100$ before the end of the year... argghhh... Here in France (and I guess this is the same in all countries), gas price increased by 50% (in the best case) since the begining of this year.. and I sadly guess this is not limitated: rare "things" are expensive...

As we consume much more every day with the incoming "new growing economy" (i.e countries like China, India, etc...) and as we are each day closer to the end of gas resources, economic/market law drive prices up, and so gas price can only increase... as I said: rare "things" are expensive...

It's a fact.. We all have responsabilities concerning gas consumption (regardless of what country we live, regardless of our life model): our societies are consumer societies, and nothing was really done in the past years/decades to anticipate the lack of gas we are encountering today...

To go forward, the big question today is not what to do to reduce our gas consumption ? Cause I think it's too late now... The big issue is what to do to replace efficiently gas ? What will be the power resource that will replace gas ? That's the big issue...
And when I say efficiently I mean taking into account Earth global warming, pollution, etc.. The answer is for sure not easy, but we will have to solve this major issue in the future...

though... 

That gas has been cheap too long so society has been built around having it that way. Gasoline is not a sustainable option so I say up with the prices to make sure a change of fuel/transportation systems happends sooner and not later. 

Describing how much you rely upon fuel and therefore how evile a fuel price increase might be is definitely putting the horse before the cart. 

Shit. 

For all that oil will run out one day, the current increases are more to do with an increased demand without a corresponding increase in extraction/refining capacity, there's still enough oil left for at least the next few years. In the idealized world of economics, more capacity will get built and in a few months/years prices will descend again -- but OPEC et al may decide that they're quite happy with prices the way they are now, thankyouverymuch and not do that. You could even make the case that this will preserve oil stocks for longer by making the world more energy conscious before it really has to and this is therefore a Good Thing, but I doubt that's a real motivation.

(not that I'm an economist or anything) 

what a place! You get quake maps, discussion on fuel and Shambler.

All its missing is wrath and his comments. 

Oil has shown no signs of running out, a 2003 study said that oil isn't what we thought and a big chunk of the earth's core is made up of oil.

The "Shortage" is manufactured, there are trillions of gallons in reserve in various place, and no shortage in the ground.

We in the US should be extracting our own oil on a larger scale, but due to environemental regs we can't.

What happened to converting all our cars to alchohol? 

What happened to converting all our cars to alchohol?

.. simply an empty Drunk Thread on func_... ;P 

First I didn't see walking in Quake feels like being drunk. I don't like being drunk because it's expensive. Quake is a good way of being drunk without alcohol. 

So why is it by design? What possible sense does it make to build your cities in a way that FORCES people to own a car?

You're right, it is stupid. But as everyone's pointed out, economic/lifestyle factors made it that way.

America is an automotive culture. We've had fifty years of relative peacefulness and prosperity with (aside from occasional hiccups) plenty of oil to fuel it. People buying cars and driving more often spurs the balkanization of where we live and work into commercial centers, strip malls, and suburbs. People being able to drive a lot makes all this stuff commercially viable, which forces people to drive more. It's one of those unfortunately cyclic things.

There was an (I think) Alice Cooper song that kind of touched on this:
I can't get a girl because I don't have a car
I can't get a car becauses I don't have a job
I can't get a job because I don't have a car
so I'm looking for a girl with a job and a car.

I doubt we're going to be able to get off our asses and convert our petroleum infrastructure to hydrogen or whatever other alternative finally becomes viable before we run out of the stuff, and running out of the stuff is what's going to force it. It won't happen until after a prolonged period of suck though - an extended lack of oil will hurt the economy real fucking bad because we're so reliant on it for transportation to/from work, to/from stores, for shipping goods cross-country. etc.

Also:
a big chunk of the earth's core is made up of oil.
ROFL - I'm in tears.

The Federal Oil Reserve isn't for periods when gas prices go up, it's just in case the communists invade. That's why it's called the "strategic oil reserve." Unlikely as that is, using it when oil prices are high is a poor decision anyway. To maintain the reserve we'll just have to fill it again at present day (ie $70/barrel) rates, thus solving nothing. 

How the hell can a description of a situation be a logical fallacy? The situation can be illogical, but the description cannot; it is either true or false.

Way to put the aggression before the intellect. 

Way to put the aggression before the intellect

It's a good explanation about Iraki Bushtchery ... doh !! 

LOL, don't forget Madfox too =) 

Lun, you may want to stop for a minute and look at this:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/June04/Thomas_Gold_obit.hrs.html 

You are trying to justify American whining about the impact of fuel prices by describing the very dependency that *causes* the problem. Cart. Before horse.

Let me put that another way - you are complaining about the inevitable consequences of relying on cheap but limited resources by invoking the fact that you rely on them! Talk about inconsistent - if you didn't want to pay for scarce fuel, why the fuck are you using so much?

You still get it cheap anyway, you silly whinging bastards. :) 

Blackdog:
You make it sound as if ceasing to rely on said resources is an incredibly simple thing we can all do overnight. Like notray said, a lot of Americans have to drive in order to make a living, and often even to buy food. Driving has long been the best price point, much cheaper than living near work in expensive urban areas and much faster than spending hours every day walking to the increasingly distant stores we need to supply us with basic necessities.

The answer to "Why the fuck are you using so much?" is "Because we can't completely restructure the urban and rural landscapes of the united states whenever gas gets pricey." It's taken fifty or sixty years of intense construction and zoning to work ourselves into such a reliance. You think undoing all of that is easy?

I'm not saying it doesn't need to be done, but the only factor strong enough to force it to happen on the necessary scale is gas going up to eight bucks a gallon and staying that way.



and Headthump:
that guy being right about eardrums and moon dust doesn't guarantee he's going to be right about the earth magically producing limitless oil. I'f I'm wrong about that, the earth has still had a couple billion years to build up the meager reserve we've burned through in the past hundred. It'll never be enough to sustain us at even a tiny fraction of the current global rate of consumption. And even if I'm wrong about that is it really the best idea to keep burning it? 

It isn't just one 'guy'. Google the work of Roger Andersen, an oceanographer and executive director of Columbia�s Energy Research Center if you are interested in this subject matter.

There are scarcities, and then there are scarcities. If oil is actually something of a scarcity in kin to air, water and sunlight than a easily quantifiable scarcity like cows milk than the changes in life style and culture proposed by the Conservation movement and others, would be in itself a drastic waste of resources, time, and effort on everyone's part.

There are known quantities of oil that exit in shoal in our good neighbor, Canada to such extent as to dwarf the reserves known to exist in Saudia Arabia. The only problem, at our current technological level it is much more expensive to process it (though probably cheaper than to defend countries like Saudia Arabia and Kuwait from their neighors) than it is to pump liquid crude.

But if that proves unuseable and Gold's theory proves wrong, I am not in any way opposed to the development of cheap hybrid cars. 

Who said I'm complaining about the high prices? I'm attempting to explain to arrogant fuckers who don't understand my country why it's impractical to tell all of us to "just take a bus" and why this is a significant issue for the majority of the population. If you don't care to understand, then please feel free to ride your high horse right up your rectum.

Everyone knows that something needs to be done. Some ideas (fuel efficiency, or alternative sources) are more practical than others (relocating 50% of the population into a city, or pressuring Saudi Arabia into higher production). 

The Federal Oil Reserve isn't for periods when gas prices go up, it's just in case the communists invade. That's why it's called the "strategic oil reserve." Unlikely as that is, using it when oil prices are high is a poor decision anyway. To maintain the reserve we'll just have to fill it again at present day (ie $70/barrel) rates, thus solving nothing.

Clinton and Bush (probably other presidents) have traditionally told this organization to inject spare fuel into the economy during election season (every four years for you non-Americans). This lowers gas prices, and causes more voters to vote them back for a second term. Actually, I found this out because I was hypothetically positing what control the president has over his own reelection, and that was one of the things that I thought of... and it turns out, was true. 

Good old abuse of power. You'll note Dubya has never once touched the reserves, in spite of fuel costs - because guess who benefits from expensive gas?

He's doing it now, of course, to help support gulf refineries whose supply of crude has been cut off now that so many oil rigs have been wrecked - and once more, guess who that directly benefits? :P 

When I'm president, I'm going to release the game development reserves to help boost the economy! 

are you alive? I dont have irc here (yet) (not that i want it!), but I know you go back to uni soon too... where are you and what is up? 

I understand that busses are impractical and sympathize with the high gas prices. We will be only too happy to sell our southern neighbours gasoline (prices adjusted to the global market) while I fill up my motorcycle for 10cnd and live in a province where political debates consists of how many gold houses and rocket cars everyone gets.