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SM177 - Escher
We again held a speedmapping event! Was chosen the theme "Escher", which is offered by Shamblernaut. And today we have four completely different looking at it maps from the mappers Cocerello (requires Quoth), digs, Doomer (who will add the engine/mod requirements to his post next time :P) and Shamblernaut (requires Quakespasm).

Screenshots -

Download -
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Demos ... Or Not 
Unfortunately i couldn't get to play Shamblernaut's map, it crashes every engine i have tried till now (details below), so i'll upload the demos when i get to play it. For now you have this wall of text.

* Digs: I don't know why you haven't released it on its own instead of releasing on the pack, apart from testing it, or that you weren't completely satisfied with it.
I think it would be better suited to, both in the map itself and more geared to the kind of the people that would play it if you were to release on its own. Just needs some testing in some parts of the gameplay and brushwork and would be ready, so my words are aiming at you fixing and releasing it as an standalone.

It's a good realization of the theme, with good and well put ideas, which makes the player think and explore. All over it felt very good, but about some enemies' teleporting, I couldn't get to like them, like the shalrath after the shambler and some of the ambushes too close to the player. I liked a lot that that your intentions towards the player could be seen sometimes, like the box to protect you from the shalarth's attack after the gold key door. Found myself grinning at some parts, like the message about not all the doors open, the trick with the hell_knights at the beginning, and some other details you added. As you can see in the demo, i enjoyed searching for all the possibilities the brushwork could give and missed the map to have even more. :)

Sometimes the navigation was a bit hard, and made some enemies get stuck like after the GK door or the ladder at the beginning, which was a pity, also the room before the one with the GK.
The ambushes need a bit of reworking most of times, they were or too unchallenging sometimes (two wizards in a good position for the player in the garden), unfair (the knights ambush or the YA ambush) or felt two alienated from each other.

* Dooomer: straightforward map, i like it, the setpieces you used, the button shooting part, the secret, the shambler fights, the general idea of two areas joint where you can choose freely whcih one go to and go back freely too,... but i cannot see the Escher theme on it (i suppose you used a picture for reference i haven't seen), could get some more intense combats, as it is it is mainly a corridor with enemies waiting ahead, reminds me of the grunt's part of the one you submitted for sm173. For example, you could put some wizards on the air, while some knight or a hellknight on the spiral staircases. Some of the stairs felt a bit narrow at first but never felt badly.
Also the skybox made too much contrast against the quality of the brushwork. You could have used a simpler or lower resolution one or just go with a normal sky texture.
About the weapons, in general i liked it, but i think it would be better moving the SSG and maybe another more weapon (GL, RL or LG) with 1 or 2 small ammo boxes to one of the sides and the other with the NG and SNG, as it adds more replayability than what it has and varies the combats.

* Shamblernaut:

Got error ''Mod_loadbrushmodel: maps/sm77_shamblernaut.bsp has wrong version number (844124994 should be 29)'' on Quakespasm, original GLQuake and WinQuake so far, which didn't let me play it. Any ideas on why? As no one else has said a thing a about this i find this strange.

* About my map:
- Shambler: for the sake of other maps i have done with very similar combats with dogs. Which skill level you chose? How far you got? In case you chose skill 2 or 3, you should know that they were made to be off limits for almost everyone, for someone that preferred something crazy, as it was explained on the text file.

- DOOMer: could you tell me more about the crash (what happened, what message appeared, whcih engine you used, ..., so i can avoid it in the future?

- DeeDoubleU: don't worry, i don't mind, but i think its not the first time i get to read that, but i don't know if it were from you so, for future reference, what is the problem? As there is lots of maps done for quoth i expect everyone to have it on their Quake folder so it got me curious. 
wrong version number (844124994 should be 29)
That error is from trying to load a bsp2 map in an engine without bsp2 support. Update Quakespasm or use MarkV, darkplaces, etc. 
A speedmap should require only standard limits, not even extended limits. And vanilla progs.

Rant over.

Nice map digs! You nailed it. 
Speedmaps Don't Need To Be Retro Jams 
People could've made an Arcane Dimensions speedmap, for example. It's up to the author to decide how much he'll restrict his audience.

That said, it would be better if speedmaps for different mods aren't mixed in the same pack. 
i meant this in the first place, its a pain to divide a pack manually between different mods/engines.
Basic agreement should be on the "basics" lol i am talking out of my ass again sorry...

Cool map Digs! 
Thank Cocerello.

This map I made only one week, and I do not see that it should be a separate release. For a single release, I would come up with something more and detailed.I tested the map and saw the game of others. Teleports monsters do not cause problems. Shalrath attack is not as fast, and when you wish you could hide from it over the top boxes. Although I left the bottom enough kits.

As for the places that you have disappointed, I have had no time for detailed testing. It speedmapping, and I do not see anything wrong with that.

Thanks again for such a big comment 
A week is not speedmapping. Better call it "Jam" event next time. 
I think the concept of speed mapping itself is already out of date. If you mean to make a map for a few hours, and now these maps are no longer interesting. We have grown out of them :) 
Nah I'm With Coce Etc. 
Digs ur map should have been a seperate release, it is too good :) 
It Was A Speed Map For Me. 
I only devoted half a dozen hours to it, as that was all the time I had to give it. (and it shows)

Shouldn't hours spent on map rather than announcement / release time determine whether it is a speed map or not? 
About Real Speedmapping 
I try make map for 4 hour. Here's what happened 
excuse me while I go cry in the corner 
have a room there for one more? 
Wow Digs 
Definitely demonstrating your mapping prowess! 
Interesting Discussion 
About what's an speedmap:

As was mentioned several times before on the speedmap thread, even in the first years of speedmaps there was talk about 1 hour being a ridiculous deadline, only OK for DM and SP arenas and it was moved to 100 minutes soon because of that and more later.
If i were to add my opinion on the topic, i suppose that they were created for that from Doom or very early Quake MP communities, even more considering DM mapping and playing was more common than SP back then.
That's why i think something along the lines Digs said in the first half of #17, and think theory on what a speedmap for SP is should change (in practice it did many years ago and in theory there was opinions agreeing about that the last years) and aim for a time limit of around 4 hours (real number depends on how quick each of us can map), leaving speedmaps for whoever like speedmaps and leave solid mapping to jams.

On my regard, my main reason to aim for real speedmaps is that i try to make each map even speedier than the previous, because i tend to overdo the maps and ending with something unplayable (the Q2 ones i did were a big example of this) or having a map that feels a chore to end and it having a big chances of eating dust in a corner, and this helps me correct that behaviour. This one was a bit less than 2 hours (in reality 3, because of some unexpected problems and because i tested and fixed it) so i am satisfied with it.

A week is not speedmapping. Better call it "Jam" event next time.

They have different names because they are different things. Following this, sm175, sm176, sm173_skacky and sm177_digs should have been named jams.

Like Shamblernaut said i think it is dependant on hours spent on it, more than available time. Like you know, one week is given because most of us have lots of real life thing going on and no mapping time on a given day. A jam is definitely different to speedmaps, even comparing those jam maps that used few hours can't compare to real speedmaps (less than around 4 or 5 hours (real number depends on how quick each of us can map)) 
Part 2 (Func Doesn't Let Post So Big Messages) 
* Mfx

i meant this in the first place, its a pain to divide a pack manually between different mods/engines.
Basic agreement should be on the "basics" lol i am talking out of my ass again sorry...

Nah, you are right. I made the thing obvious to everyone when i went overboard in sm175 making maps for using with SoA and DoE too, but that's something to always keep on mind. That's why i stick with just Quoth now or modless and made sm177_coce playable if played modless even if they are for Quoth, as it is the standard and most used mod, and it's common to see it on speedmap packs, but maybe only one mod or modless all the maps should be better.

* Ericw: thanks for the information. Going to try know to play it. I suppose that what happened is that he had it on from another map he was doing and forgot to delete that part.


As for the places that you have disappointed, I have had no time for detailed testing. It speedmapping, and I do not see anything wrong with that.
Of course, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong about, its the opposite, and i fully know that, that's why i said on the previous post [so my words are aiming at you fixing and releasing it as an standalone.] at the very beginning.
If i were to talk about your map as a speedmap i would say that those parts to fix don't need fix at all, well more like i would barely mention them, they are more than enough for a speedmap.

In terms of detail expected on a standalone release, i think it just need adjusting on some combats, on brushwork on the room with the GK, previous and next one, in the underwater part and maybe the stairs before the garden (i would keep the trees, they fit with abstract architecture expected in a Quake map (trying to make them more realistic wouldn't be good enough so better to make it obvious you don't go that route)), and adding one or two more secrets.
Just that, and as it is an small part of it is why i said aim for a standalone release :)

Shalrath attack is not as fast, and when you wish you could hide from it over the top boxes.
It's a personal taste and experiences talking for me there.
Yeah, it's not a problem, and it's an enjoyable experience, and there is more than enough items to survive the encounter in a good fashion.
What ticks me off is that i don't like the typical ''show up behind cover, shoot, and repeat till its dead'' strategy when i have to calculate each time i do it the amount of movement i need to be able to see the enemy below without moving enough to fall down to death. I like challenges and the adrenaline rush from them, but this kind of combats feel more like a chore than skill or strategy related. That, and that i had to repeat it twice one after the other. Like i said just personal preference.

Well going now to play Shamblernaut's and Dig's new maps and post all the demos. 
Going To Be Playing These Today 
Starts in about ninety minutes. 
Quick Feedback 
Digs: awesome

Doomer: well so-so

Shambler : fuck bsp2

enjoy ! 
Cocerello's map loads in Retroquad, but I've still got to finish implementing Quoth support. 
Took me awhile to have them done.

* Shamblernaut:

Unfortunately i forgot to record the first run which ended fat at the ''hands'' of a fiend, but you have here the second.

Quite promissing map. It is a direct interpretation of the theme, and well executed. At first looked badly done as i couldn't discern the trick, but after getting the hang of it, and realizing that it was all based on the same trick as sm159_negke, it made sense and looked way better in my eyes. It takes a bit realize how it works, as i found it by accident after getting teleported thrice and dying at the fiend, but thast's mainly because you made the playable area the exterior, if it were the inside of a box the player could see were he is getting to.
What stood out too much is how the skybox sides don't fit with each other, and this skybox needs to be afar to avoid see each pixel.
Things to avoid for future maps: delete the fiend, as it is very common for it to kill the player and its hard to avoid, and it also has the same issue as other maps with very open layout, like with my speedmap for mapjam 2: depending on the way the player goes, he can find himself out of ammo in hard situations (i was very lucky with that on the second run, and even with that i had to axe on very low health situations.

* Digs:

The theme is way less strong in this and more linear and simple as expected from a 4 hour work but it is impressive for a 4 hour one, in my case i would get stuck at fixing some parts when mapping and wouldn't advance so much, and also i found it quite fun to play, and in some parts the gameplay, isn't as polished as the other one but its more fun. It also shows typical speedmap tricks at the doors and other hilarious moments. I liked a lot the way you made the final arena block the player, but not in an obvious way, and the lava with jumps to the side part.

* Mankrip and DeeDoubleU:

You can play it WITHOUT Quoth too, it is similar to with Quoth, a bit harder at the beginning and easier after the first encounter, but it is perfectly playable, except hat the GK is invisible, but it is in the middle of the map, so it is hard to miss.

WITHOUT Quoth skill 1 is very hard, but skill 0 is around skill 0 WITH Quoth in difficulty, and skill 2 WITHOUT Quoth is a bit easier than skill 0 WITH Quoth. Have to use this for making a map both for Quoth and modless, with different gameplay and layout for both. Can be interesting.

* Bloughsburgh: thanks for your comments. I am glad you liked it. I understand the first encounter being harder, for me it was easier than the GK one because i knew what was coming so i didn't see the need to nerf it enough. Lesson learned. 
Thanks for the tip.

Escher^3 - map gameplay
Ignore the debug messages when the thunderbolt fires, it's for some QC experiments I was making.

Pretty brutal and fun map! And although the layout is very simple, its visual style is pretty charming. 
Looks Like 
i'll have to put 8 shamblers next time just for you, Mankrip ... or 4 gugs, haha.

I thought no one would be able to kill them all, they were there to make the player hurry on finishing the map (2 minutes) so the combat is frenetic. I even gave them extra health and effects 1 just in case, but forgot how much ammo on skill 0 i put.
Surprised also at how almost no enemy attacked at your back, as for me it was always at least one third of them in my back in the GK ambush. Have to investigate that more for future maps, as it changes the gameplay a lot.
Thanks for the video.

And although the layout is very simple, its visual style is pretty charming.

Thats the price for having as an objective have a map done in the least hours as possible. Surprised you found the visual style charming, for me it was an experiment that went very bad, but glad you liked it.

* Ionous: Thanks for the video, was interesting to watch. Have to praise you for how hard-headed you were at trying to beat it without Quoth. I didn't expect you to try so much before switching to Quoth. Even for me that i know the strategy required and its the fourth map i made with that kind of gameplay, i die 2 out of 3 times, so you made quite the effort there.
By the way, skill 2 and 3 with Quoth are even harder and for me impossible for now, mainly due to the lighting (on very high brightness are a bit easier than Quothless skill 1). 
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