|Posted by than on 2006/07/20 21:40:56|
|I was going to release my new map tomorrow to celebrate the 10th birthday of Quake, but since I will be away this weekend I decided to release it a day early instead.
You can find more information, screenshots and a download link over at my QExpo booth. You'll need an updated engine such as FitzQuake or aguirRe's enhanced GLQuake to run it, because it is about 50 edicts over the limit :(
http://qexpo.quakedev.com/booth.php?id=29&page=150 (DAY FIVE)
The source .MAP and .RMF are both included in the zip, so if anyone wants to modify it for better DM play or whatever, then go ahead.
i used fitzquake, but every engine shows these warnings if the map is run with developer 1 (aguirRe's engine even has 2 and 3).
the walkmonster warning is caused by the enforcer on the lift indeed. the only way to get rid of it would be to teleport him in upon startup.
those lift issues (compare to my sm120, or even better orlmap7) are strange. i don't know what causes them, but i saw lots of "unstuck" messages at least during my train ride. jumping usually helps when being stuck and drained of health.
Here's my first play through on nightmare skill. I had made a quick attempt on skill 0, so I remembered most of the layout, but I had no clue where the monsters were going to be on skill 3. I was down to 1 health at some point :-)
Anyways, I did it in 12:51, getting all 155 kills and getting 2 out of 6 secrets.
The demo was recorded in JoeQuake (latest version) and I didn't notice any errors or anything of that kind.
Awesome map btw!!
How Long Until We Find All The Secrets?
I'm on _one_ ffs :)
its not 100% if u dont find all the secrets!
Im a than fanboi too.
would be so cool if he'd made more sp maps based on dm1/2/4/5/6 maps and make a little episode out of it. :)
Nice Nice, Spoilers Included
I played the beta, so I wasn't first-timer, found 2 secrets and got 124/125 kills. There was one inanimate shambler model spawned at the central atrium high, and I could shoot through him? Don't know if he woke or died/was removed later.
18 some minutes. Skill 1. Gotta test the DM someday.
The looks are just so good and feel so comfortable.
Fps was a bit bad at places.
Hehe fun those things. The end rocked.
I did get lost at one point and ended up roaming around but the realistic-style architecture was nice to look at so this wasn't a too bad. Played through on nightmare until about 3/4 through and then stopped to have my dinner . . . and dark places wouldn't load my save >:(
so had a quick look round with noclip and notarget - triggered the nice ending scene.
description in three words:
solid, entertaining, accomplished
so i'll have a proper uninterupted playthrough tonight.
Great job Than, one of the more impressive IDbase excursions i've seen. I never play DM, so i didn't know the layout before hand, but even after finding the silver key, and wandering off in a completely different direction, i quickly found my way. Great inter-connectivity.
It takes a bit of thought to make the standard base enemies difficult, but you managed to pull that off quite efficiently here. The base enemies never killed me, but they took me down quite low in the health department. Ending was nice, a good shock moment when the ground started to quake once the Shamblers died.
Great archetectually, with curves thrown in for nice measure, to complement the small scale details quite nicely.
Only thing i thought that didn't work, and this is somewhat of a nitpick, is that i don't think the black rock texture works well in a non-gloomy environment. The final area it worked fine, but in the early area it looks sloppy against the bright sky.
I suck, only found one secret ( RA ), got all kills. Died once, on first shambler ambush. I think it took about 25 minutes, on hard that is.
Great work Than. Hopefully we see more of these remakes, and then have the honorary Quoth translation.
A great map! I loved it. It looks so great and the gameplay is top notch. It took me almost 50 minutes to finish the level on hard skill and it was always keeping me on the edge - especially after the first shamblers appeared. I exited without dying even once but with no ammo and no armor (after reaching the exit teleport I lost my last 4 health points :)
I found only 2 secrets and in the last 1/3 of the map I was often low on ammo and health. There was no LG in the map, right?
Here is my demo: http://republika.pl/quake_1/dm3rmx_ankh.dz
Than! Please make more maps for us!
btw. out of curiosity: which area was the one you intended the player to rush through rather than retreat in order to get the necessary ammo?
I watched Stubgaards demo. There is an LG in the map! Now I understand my ammo problems and the increasing difficulty towards the end of the map. Strange that the LG didn't appear on the lift for me. I was playing the map with joequake software version. I think that Stubgaard also uses joequake.
what can i say more.. than that was one of best level�s i ever play? omg was realy realy great!!! thks man for this great work! please dont ever map for quake :) here is goes my second demo in hard :| miss a secret but i now were it was :) just forgot it :(
[activate idbase stroking motions]
Good Job Than
Very well crafted level. Interesting to see how you sort of played the textures to the brushwork, whereas in most base themes, many, self included, do the opposite. Good stuff.
The second shambler appearance in the central atrium after passing through the room that overlooks the outside area is where I intended players to run for it. It wasn't working well in beta testing, so I chucked in some more ammo (still kinda tight if you try and kill all of the shamblers and have missed a few shots earlier on in the level... and don't find the quad <wink>) and hoped for the best. That's why the floor has a red stripe on and there are arrows to show the route. If you run rather than fight, you can get the lightning gun easily and kill all the shamblers no problem, but if you are on low health and ammo, it should be pretty tense when you run into the mainframe room as there are enforcers sniping from above.
Anyway, thanks for the comments, and glad to hear you all liked it (so far.)
I replayed it last night, and I think you really improved the stuff since beta test (small changes added really made the difference).
IMHO, it is one of the best remix I played. It is equivalent to Vondur/czg's Slipgate Duplex: so a really nice work.
Keep it up !!
This is a great looking map, and most of it plays very well, but I had big problems with some bits.
The three shamblers appearing just when I have run out of ammo was not cool. Intending the player to choose a certain specific action in response is all very well and good on paper, but in reality it's just as possible that they'll pick wrong and either die or get rewarded for surviving with a map empty of ammo and three shamblers blocking the only way forward. Bah.
The other major issue was a triple whammy at the end - the vore threw itself down into the pit, and when I went forward to shoot it a door locked me in that room. With a vore right in my face and no cover. Next time round the vore landed on the ledge (wierd inconsistency there) - I killed that, and proceeded only to find myself in an inescapable pit. With a shambler in my face and no cover.
I reloaded again and this time jumped around the edge of the room, went out the far side and proceeded to wander around the map for about five minutes trying to figure out wtf I was supposed to do next. Not cool.
I think you'd have been better off preventing the player from progressing out of that room if they didn't happen to play the correct way. The high-end-monster-in-your-face thing is also best avoided imo. Not a very fun end to an otherwise fantastic map.
Shamblers Live In Vain
When you look at the Doom mapping scene, you easily see that the majority of mappers have been heavily influenced by Romero. Basicaly treating the player as someone who has agreed on his own initiative to jump into the bowels of Hell and be subjected to a lot of tricks ans suprises, and disgusting things to torment the lot of man.
The scene tends to come up with a tremendous ammount of creative situations, like the Hell on Earth pak where the levels tend to let you roam freely, but you have to figure out the best layed route where you can engage the weaker monsters and build up to the larger ones. Interesting tactical twists occur in nearly every map despite the fact they are very hoard oriented.
The Quake scene tends to be very different. Players and critics expect maps to be 'balanced' and 'fair', ultimately meaning, 'no suprises', and as a result, there is not the variety in tactics, situations, tricks, traps, and etc. in the Quake scene as there exist in the Doom scene.
I tend to offer only general assessment of praise for maps that deserve the praise because the last thing anyone of us would want to do is stifle another mapper's creativity. I'm afraid your comments, Blackdog tend to lead in that direction. So you have to reload a few times to deal with those situations, what is the harm? I found myself in the places you mentioned doing the same thing, and my response was more on the lines, 'wow! That fucker got me there!'.
Good map because of the suprises and the things you did differently from the typical map, Than, not inspite of them.
is the name of the megawad I mentioned. HoE, of course, is the DoomII subtitle.
Well I Already Did A Minireview...
...on the QExpo front page. But it is an excellent map which I intend on replaying later on (LordHavoc has been playing it in DPmod, which is just insane... grunts lead and do more proportional damage in that...)
HeadThump you make a very good point regarding tricking the player, and I agree with you even though I may not act it in the game - perfectionism and whatnot makes me feel like a failure if I die in a map, but then I couldnt be bad at a game (of course not, impossible!) and thus would chide the mapper instead of just admitting that he got me. However, I failed to clip the trigger that spawns in the last shambler before the end somehow, and thus wandered the base for a good extra 15 minutes trying to find out just WHAT I needed to do. I only finished the level technically because I returned to the vore area, got locked in, made the jump to try and get to the other hall, fell, and THAT spawned in the shambler. So... a great map, which I finished on accident after a lot of wandering.
Normal skill btw, 125 kills, 5/6 secrets found.
That's a tidy little thesis Headthump, but it doesn't change what is fun and what is not. It's not even relevant, since I wasn't complaining about teleporting monsters (a standard device in quake if anything is). My beef is that fighting shamblers and vores with no cover is lame, and it'll always be lame regardless of any highfalutin words about how much more accepting players should be.
As for the suggestion that I shouldn't dare criticise this map: fuck off. I'll call it as I see it, thanks.
Look At The Title
of my 'neat and tidy' thesis, I'm dealing directly with the shambler matter. I thought Than
handled it well and I was defending his overall approach to mapping.
And, don't try to hijack this thread with an idoitic flame war, this thread is about Than's map, and that is IT.
Oh I Just Looked At The Words
And I stand by my original comment, which is an honest criticism.
Yes, this is not the thread to rip into the ridiculous idea that criticism stifles creativity - if we are going to take that any further, I'll start a new one.
looks pretty good, it coudld have been lit more creatively, but apart from that it's quality work.
Wasnt too keen on progression, it's one thing to allow exploration etc, but this was a bit confusing as to where to go next.
Shambler fights were fine by me.
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