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New Q1 SP Quoth: "Mainframe Mayhem"
Another base map, this time polished till my fingers bled! Be sure to have Quoth installed!

See the textfile for further information about setting it up correctly, and who contributed to this release.

Screenshot 1 Screenshot 2

Download (updated version 2)

And your demos are always very appreciated!
Looks Great, Plays Ok 
Demo :
Skill 2. 4/9 secrets. 25 minutes.

Visually fantastic! Love the attention to detail with stuff like the hazard tape, wires, pipes and nice use of coloured light.

Game play was for the most part fine but theres a few things I disliked a lot. Number 1 was the constant back spawning of stuff behind the player. It's cheap! Especially when you telelport stuff in *directly* behind the player, multiple times! nonononono!

Another thing I didn't like was the final fight (Spoilers!!) there are 4 shamblers but hardly any cover to break LOS from where you push the button to activate. I got taken from 100hp + armour to 80hp before I even really found any cover.

I did get a bit lost in places as well, mainly while trying to find the way into the gold key room. I don't think the way the route opens from above in communicated to the player well enough. 
Very Nice Map 
Just finished the map, so here is a short "review".

The design is very nice, the progression is great, I never got lost, but it's not very linear either.

The textures are mixed perfectly, underground rocks combined with base and industrial textures create a great environment. A little more metal and less classic base textures wouldn't hurt, but then the map would become industrial and not base map :)

I played on easy and it was indeeed quite easy, enough amo and health, I only died just before the exit, that's because I rushed too fast and I was unprepared to face two shamblers. The second time I found the trinity artefact and I stayed on "high grounds", it was too easy :)

I found a huge bug, just before the "ride" to the exit almost everything turned gray, nothing was rendered, I had to go blindly further and slowly everything came back to normal, but loooking back I saw the same bug, like that area was not properly vised.

Another thing that I didn't like: the elevators, I always check underneath them for secrets, so I didn't like that I had to call them back and the button was almost always too high when I was unedr the elevator that went up without me.

That's all for now, great map, but try to fix that bug at the end - I played in fitxquake 0.85, parameters: -heapsize 128000 +gl_clear 1 -width 1920 -height 1080 -bpp 32 -game quoth 
Getting Bugs 
Mh's engines lock up. Fitz works but textures are all out of wack. Does it need some special treatment? 
This Is Weird 
In Fitz, the texture issue goes away after you die once... 
Oh That Reminds Me ^^ 
There was a room where vis got totally messed up and half the area was missing, parts would appear and disappear as I moved around the room. Really weird! 
Nice Map Tho, Once It Runs :) 
What Compiler? 
I breasted a recent version and had zero problems with quakespasm. Damn last minute changes.

Awesome map and I say that as a base map hater. 
This Map Is The Tits? 
Look forward to playing it! 
'Breasted' isn't common usage, and saying something is 'the tits' is Brit lager lout slang for saying its good. 
Fuck You. 
I died. 
Did Someone Say... 
Thanks For The Map 
Great map detail, textures look good, rocks and damaged floors areas good. The end portal looked GREAT.

Too quiet, more environment sounds.

Running with Fitz nasty HOM near the end.

Enemies sparse for the size of the map.

I agree with DaZ back spawning is cheap but only if done to close. Sending reinforcements far enough to be out of detection range is fine.

Some path_corners to make the enemies patrol would have been good. Enemies peaking out from walls and corners. Pathing adds to replay.

I hope that wasn't too many complaints.
The only thing broken is that HOM. 
Back Spawning 
I agree with DaZ back spawning is cheap but only if done to close. Sending reinforcements far enough to be out of detection range is fine.

This. I like it when I get surprised from behind while still having a chance to react in time. If enemies get spawned far behind me so that I can hear them approaching, I think it's fine. If I remember correctly, ijed did this quite nicely in Warpspasm. 
There's Cheap, And Then There's What Mappers Do 
Number 1 was the constant back spawning of stuff behind the player. It's cheap! Especially when you telelport stuff in *directly* behind the player, multiple times! nonononono!

It's cheap even before you consider that Quoth allows you to have monsters spawn in silently. With the teleporter sound, it's merely cheap. Without, it's downright abusive.

Having read this, I am reluctant to play this map, now. Which is a shame, as I generally like base maps... 
Don't Be A Dink 
it isn't *that* bad. 
In Fact 
it's pretty damn good
as others said, it's very beautiful in many places.
I actually found the tape pretty distracting and out of place, but the wires and computer terminals added a great sense of place.
This is a good map, and it is undoubtedly worth playing. 
In Fact 
it's pretty damn good
as others said, it's very beautiful in many places.
I actually found the tape pretty distracting and out of place, but the wires and computer terminals added a great sense of place.
This is a good map, and it is undoubtedly worth playing. 
Very nice looking, but very buggy as people said. Also dislike the silent teleporting dogs.

28ish mins, didn't kill the last couple enemies as I had no ammo. 2 secrets I think? 
Congrats MFX 
A beautiful tech/base map with a couple of minor gameplay issues which should not be missed. The visuals and atmospherics are gorgeous and I really enjoyed finding the secrets.

The operation of the lifts could have been better and I often found myself stuck trying to reach the lower buttons with the lift above. The final exit teleporter is amazing, a lovely brushwork design with a subtle Quake symbol in the background. 
You can walk through a wall:

Replayed on Nightmare. The end fight is insanely hard. :D 
You're right. It's not that bad.

It's worse.

When you do that so early in the level, even with a low tier enemy like a dog, you are basically making a contract with the player, saying that you will do this again when the stakes are much higher. When the player cannot deal with the enemy as effectively, and is going to use a lot more resources dealing with the problem.

So, no, I can not say that a map that decides to kill the player on a whim is a good map.

(Also: It's possible to get stuck behind the moving crate at '-1796 -2815 +408'.) 
Mostly Great. 
Except the few blindingly obvious issues which would have been picked up by beta-testing or even playing the map yourself.

HOM / greyflash in "cablecar" room is really horrible. Also present in a few other places.

Lifts are tedious to use and call and dangerous if trapped. Ladders a bit awkward too.

Enemy and sounds a bit sparse in places.


Architecture is great. Layout is great and the interconnectivity is pretty mind-bending in places. Fog and coloured lighting are spot on. Details such as the radioactive taping, cables, pipes, dual-layer lava are really well done.

Gameplay is mostly good and well balanced. Enemy are well placed, hunting around and exploring is well rewarded. Quouth enemies are not too bad at all. Secrets are very fun but again there are a few too many details that make the secrets stand out less. Ending is rather cool although I had read Daz's spoiler so it was very easy staying by the button with 3-Nail + LG secret. It could have been quite IMBA otherwise. Dog ambushes were not a particular highlight nor problem. 
so, as someone who usually has to play custom Quake levels on Easy, should I download this? 
I Had Fun 
Definitely better than the beta versions. I get huge HOM errors in the end also (QuakeSpasm 0.85.9 on OS X). Of course I died at the end, too ;-).

Skill 2 demo: 
Will There Be A HOM Fixed Version? 
Thanks For This Awesome Map 
didn't resist to play today, first run the balance is fantastic :p

fantastic map, love it! 
Very Nice Map, But... 
For the most part a very good level, and I enjoyed playing it. Lighting and overall layout were very well done. Nicely restrained colored lighting, not overly saturated or garish. Two places seemed a little too hard, shortly after getting the gold key and the ending. I managed to survive the ending, but I probably wouldn't have if I hadn't found the secret power up.

It's a shame all the little errors, poorly designed spots, and various minor lighting defects weren't tested out before releasing this map. All combined they do tend to cause an overall bad impression.

Seriously, how do you build these maps with all that gray flash? Huge parts of the map just disappear at times. I wouldn't be able to do that if I tried. 
Seriously, how do you build these maps with all that gray flash? Huge parts of the map just disappear at times. I wouldn't be able to do that if I tried.

The game disagreed that I pushed the jump button. I died in the lava.

Darkplaces Demo: 
Quark? maybe. I kind of looked at the map file using Netradiant and I have to wonder about the use of detail brushes. All the rock walls in the area where the gray flash is the worst are marked as detail. I'm no expert when it comes to using detail in Quake, so maybe I'm wrong, but I'd have to say that a lot of what's marked as detail in this map I would consider required brushwork as far as vis is concerned. 
Does r_novis 1 get rid of the HOMs? 
Does r_novis 1 get rid of the HOMs? 
Great map , thank you!
Here is my demo(spasmquake):

Flickering walls were my arch-enemies :\ 
Thanks Guys 
For your kind comments and for not hacking me into pieces like "he did it again"

Reason for the huge hom is a ugly portal error, caused by a func_detail touching the void.

Dont know how i managed to produce this:)

Anyhow, as i'm afk till next week, due to a trip to holland, you'll have to wait,
Or again r_novis 1 should fix it.

"He Did It Again". 
He also produced a generally very cool base map again ;) 
It's a great base map, one of the best I've ever played. Yes, r_novis 1 should fix the problems with gray flash/hom.

I tried removing the detail from the brushes, but the map leaked when BSPed after that. Maybe I did something wrong or Netradiant just screwed it up. I ran the original map from the zip file through txqbsp_xt and it didn't leak, but generated 29 compiler errors.

All the error warnings were Checkface: point off plane and CutNodePortals type, probably because of QuArK. It took a couple of minutes to light, but then wvis claimed the portal file wasn't a portal file and wouldn't run. So I played it without vising it and everything looked fine. 
Looks Pretty Cool So Far... 
...will try a complete run through in the light of day.

I followed installation instructions and couldn't get the thing to run. In the end I manually moved all the files into what I believed to be the proper directories under "Quoth" and it worked. Did anyone else have te same problem? 
Oh Yeah. 
Installation instructions are balls. 
Oh Good... 
...not senile just yet. 
I Did The Same Thing 
Played It With R_novis 1 
no errors or slowdowns (but this should really be fixed).

Anyway, the design is superb. There's few areas that dont quite make sense from a practical viewpoint but on the whole the architecture is very eye catching and pleasing.

Gameplay is pretty good but felt a bit random rather than properly setup.

Keep it up mfx. 
I thought he used TB? Could be wrong... 
Quark Vs. TB 
Most of the brushwork was done in TB, as it is much easier and faster.
But as there is no etp support by now in TB, i merged the whole thing in Quark.
Quark has some features, i really miss in other editors by now....
Dont say floating point coords.:) 
Still Not Finished The Map Yet. 
I don't understand why it seems so tough but I'm not doing very well.

Seems like there's maybe not enough health and ammo? I dunno. It's graphically very good overall (there's a few weird texture choices but it's mostly good).

It's easy to forget how powerful the new quoth soldiers are. It's easy to get a rocket/grenade to the face or get blasted by a plasma gun. I'd use the new enemy types sparingly to be honest.

I'll come back again when I've actually licked the damn thing. 
Skill 3 Attempts 
Firstly I've got to say that nobody is more excited than me to see all the mapmodels in this release - I believe it's the first map to be released using mine! It was great to see them integrated so well with the geometry and the map in general - coming up through a broken section of tape at the beginning set the scene of the player intruding, and it was helpful in other areas to mark dangerous cliffs. I really must bite the bullet and make a version of the tape with a more practical skinmap and some variant skins...

Anyway, enough self-congratulation, onto the map! The build quality was top-notch throughout, lots of verticality in the open atriums, hatches and windows all over the place to look into areas from different angles. I had a cool moment result from all the shortcuts that open up as the map went on, where two enforcers split up between the main door and a new side door to perform a pincer movement. It was a good battle on two fronts, more fair than enemy-spawned-behind attacks.

Like the title suggests, I played through on nightmare, which made the enemies spawning behind even more unforgiving (I did see the attack at the broken bridge coming). No demo as I didn't switch back to Quoth 2.1 for the playthrough. My first attempt got to the Edie just after the gold key, I tried to backtrack to replenish health after killing him and got trapped by a lift. The second attempt got to the final fight, but I didn't have the firepower (or enough seconds left on the trinity) to take down one of the shamblers and survive the retreat to cover.

Ammo was tight at first - on the first run I used my last shotgun shell to kill the 2nd voreling - and nails were always a valuable commodity. But it was at the end of the map that things were really too tight. The only armour all map I had was the green from right at the start. I got annoyed by several secrets which I had spotted, and found the door that leads to them (lightning, s-nail, r-armour) but had no idea how to progress to open them. Still, I managed to beat the final fight on skill 1 just now so these things weren't essential.

I'm gonna take a peak at the map now, see if there's a way to fix all this greyflash business... 
Grey Flash Disappear With Novis 
which point to a vising problem. I wonder if some hard limit was hit with visible objects? The map doesn't even load in DirectQ for me either. 
Well Mfx Said 
Reason for the huge hom is a ugly portal error, caused by a func_detail touching the void.

I looked at the map file and it has a huge amount of detail brushes. To be honest, I didn't really see a need for any of them. The map isn't that big and there weren't any really huge areas. It looked like it would vis fine with no detail at all. But then, I have no idea what kind of computer was available for vising, so I don't know. 
I'm having a serious writers block at the moment, so I'll simply repeat what everyone else has said in that, I thought the map was great, and the Quoth monsters really added a sense of danger and variety, as they would to any base map. Not to mention the use of those fine models, especially the tape. Very good work :)

First playthrough on hard skill, two demos since I died once. I didn't make it to the exit, the final shamblers killed me, but I didn't want to bother creating another file for just a thirty second demo of me finishing.

You may notice me stopping and looking around, when I do that I'm just admiring the details, and there were quite a lot in this one.

Protocol 15, should play back in any engine. 
Fresh feeling map which i enjoyed plenty :)
Nice secrets, and good use of Quoth base enemies. Loved the tape-lined caverns, end gateway, and trident secret.

The eddie trap was a bit meh though. You're just not going to hit it first run through. Also had a graphical anomoly near the end. 
Back Spawning 
is normally be cheap, but quite enjoyed it here. 


I'm almost surprised, but: nice map.

Some muscular brushwork and detailing there, you're pretty much doing everything right in that regard.

Got trapped behind a crate near GL - more playtesting would have prevented this...

Found dogs a little annoying, especially the ones spawning into my back. Meh. Might want to drop that idea for your next map.

Thank you for actually making skill 0 acceptably easy, 99% of mappers don't manage to do this, but you did it here. This means I could actually enjoy this map until I got nailed by an edie without any cover available.

Almost got lost once because there are so many connections that lead to previous parts of the map.

Quoth monsters are still pretty imba but thankfully you didn't use hordes of them so it was bearable.

If I could request one thing, have your maps be playtested by more people (not just 2 or 3 veteran players) and make skill 0 still a tad easier.

But nice map. 
I Have Started This 
And have a 50% demo that's waiting for me to complete it. I got distracted by a task making some things for a thing.

The back spawning dogs everyone's complained about are just a bit b0rky IMO - they appear right next to the player without tfog. If they had of appeared from inside the crates or monster jumped from above you could have got them arriving just as quickly (and a bit more spectacularly) and nobody would have complained.

I see what you wanted to do with that crate ambush - don't be put off; keep experimenting with stuff like that, it makes maps interesting.

I might be able to finish this today, if I can get those other things done. 
Demo here: (first run)

I had a few nitpicks; the lava in the start room would look better at 1:1 scale. There was a lift button that looked pushable but was disabled until later (IIRC?), and unfortunate about the HOMs.

Enjoyed the red key trick, I was wondering if there was going to be an actual red key :)

Played on skill 1, died once around midway through after losing a lot of health on an unnecessary grenadejump... other than that, I made it to the end where I was careless with the trinity and the shamblers got me a few times. Skill 1 felt good to me, though. Maybe I wasn't paying attention but I didn't notice dogs spawning in; I thought they were just hiding behind crates - so after seeing that for the first time, I was cautious about ambushes in areas with lots of crates.

Overall, thanks for the awesome map. Superb interpretation of the quoth idbase look & feel :-) 
Nice Level 
finally got to play it, nice gameplay balance, good secrets.
though i lost all armor and alot of health after being stuck under the lift (had to cheat out of there to save my life), hence i died at the last ambush.
but overall proper base level, good job mfx!

Finally Played! 
I came across the same sorts of issues as others, also dying on the end battle. I feel that could have been improved if I'd known what to expect more.

Maybe a short button hunt to activate things beforehand.

Demo, where I complain about people bugging me while trying to play;

Some encounters felt a bit forced. Sentinels are a great enemy and were well used, but the Pyro and Plasma troopers feel oddly balanced and it seems you didn't place them as well as other enemies because of this.

The Chicken Centaur (Edie) was fun as always. I thought the end battle could have been better with them than the shamblers actually, since the compact areas would have left the player herded up against them and their buzzsaws, while not having cover to avoid attacks wouldn't have mattered as much without the hitscan shambler lightning.

Oh, and I got lost after finding the lightning gun secret. The shortcut turned out to be the long way round :) 
So How About That Fixed Version 
coming soon.. 
i'm tempted to change the gameplay a bit, what do you think? 
Everyone Will Complain 
But it's not the army. If you think the changes will make it a better map then go for it. 
Nah, gameplay was good overall. Fix the main bug and move on to the next map. 
Only Thing I'd Consider Changing Gameplay Wise 
Would be maybe staggering the final ambush? 
If You Are Going To Change Gameplay 
I think ijed made good suggestions re dogs. 
I like those dogs. Traps are awesome. Dying is ok. You can quicksave all the time. Have you guys ever played games in the 90s? 
its not so much their surprise factor but the taking out of immersiveness factor because as someone else above pointed out, they can actually spawn out of nowhere while you can see it happening.

Ijed's ideas retained the surprise element but also retained the immersive factor. 
ah, didn't see that. yeah, I had an enforcer spawn in my fov too. 
I Would Also Argue 
That if the player is constantly worried about being cheap shotted and as a result is hammering the quicksave key at every possible moment then that is a sign of bad level design, it hurts the level in the long run. 
It's better to just take the opinions and criticism you got and apply them to further work than endlessly try to improve previous work.

One of the ways you improve as a designer is to release your work and say "This is my work!" and stand behind it as something you are proud of, and then look to improve in your next project. I think it helps you decide what values you want to define your work, rather than constantly fixing things and trying to make everyone happy.

For instance, if you decide you really like spawning dogs behind people as a gameplay mechanic, but all the comments here are negative, then try and think of how you would improve that for next time. Maybe spawn them further back would be enough? Perhaps some sort of warning would make it more acceptable? An example of an improvement of the gameplay idea would be to have the dogs in cages you walk past and can't shoot them, and then just after you pass, you hear them slide open! That would give a narrative and reason and forewarning, which would strengthen the encounter, and still give the "Enemies behind you you must quickly turn and deal with".

I don't think it's as easy to stick something like that into an already released map, you end up having to shoehorn which doesn't always work as well as you'd hope. Better to leave until next. 
I Agree With Scampie 
Improve your next map with what you learned from your last one. 
I'd fix the 3 or 4 most obvious issues, then move on. 
When Does A Criticism Become An Issue 
On the Paul Steed objectivity scale, visual glitches are much closer to the objective issue end, while gameplay sits on the subjective criticism side of things. So if you really want to release another version, I'd suggest only fixing visual quality stuff, and listen to Scampie for the rest. 
Yeah I Guess I'd Agree 
..i think i got it.
Won�t change the anything in it, Scampie gets it to the point, and honestly i�m a bit tired of this map.

Actually i can�t see it anymore, it�s a pity all this work...

But for the fixing, i can tell you i�m working on it, as long as i am not working on something else , i can deliver soon..

And btw, my assumption of a potal error by func_detail in void was wrong, it�s mainly broken or misaligned polys that suck(which makes it even worse). 
Well that wandered off and fell in a well.

Mfx, to answer your question, it's worth fixing the greyflash and probably moving the spawning creatures out of sight. Personally I'd change the end shamblers for Edie's, but it's not my map :) 
Any Ambush Mechanic Is Fine 
As long as a player playing on a skill level they 'normally' play on can reasonably expect to survive.

Make your maps for everyone and they'll suck. Make them for yourself and they'll suck until you figure out what your favorite type of play is. Which you by experimenting and making mistakes.

In the case of Mainframe Mayhem it'd be a shame for it to be marred by a couple of technical issues. But enemies appearing in sight subjectively described as a 'technical issue' and the end fight is purely gameplay... 
Didn't see the post, will shut up now.

Awesome screenshot. 
Looks sexy 
Good Post Scampsp2 
OK Guys, got the map now so far fixed to compile with no errors. \o/

But as when i load the portalfile in quark, i get this:


Seems like there are portals expanding into the void on the left, and one is totally 'alone', but what do i know...

Will there be problems vising this, does anybody has a clue? 
thats not fun to debug. have you deleted the old portal files? If it doesnt leak surely it should write a portal file? 
*shouldn't write a portal file 
yes .prt file is all new, as i said no compile errors or warnings. Started vising, its working (by now).

File: maps\mfxsp17.bsp
2861 portalleafs
8090 numportals
8061 numrealleafs
State file out of date, will be overwritten.

Base Vis took like 5 seconds, and now for the elaborate part.. 
I didn't think a .prt file was produced on a sealed map. 
its not leaking, here the tx_qbsp output.

------ LoadMapFile ------
Title: "Mainframe Mayhem"
41478 faces
6672 brushes (1750 detail)

1451 entities
167 miptex
20382 texinfo
Added 23 texture frames

Building hulls sequentially...
Processing hull 0...

------ Brush_LoadEntity ------
6059 brushes read
------ CSGFaces ------
37707 brushfaces
30489 csgfaces
26475 mergedfaces
------ SolidBSP ------
34772 split nodes
14574 solid leafs
19952 empty leafs
247 water leafs
62491 leaffaces
54909 nodefaces
------ FillOutside ------
5837 outleafs
------ MergeAll ------
20658 mergefaces
------ SolidBSP ------
14143 split nodes
6083 solid leafs
7999 empty leafs
62 water leafs
33841 leaffaces
25980 nodefaces
----- Portalize Detail ----

2861 vis leafs
8090 vis portals
8061 real leafs
------ Tjunc ------
30705 world edges
95974 edge points
18564 edges added by tjunctions
0 faces added by tjunctions
------ MakeFaceEdges ------
------ GrowRegions ------
Processing hull 1...
------ MergeAll ------
14685 mergefaces
Processing hull 2...
------ MergeAll ------
10962 mergefaces
WARNING: Marksurfaces 36957 exceed normal engine max 32767

------ FinishBSPFile ------
WriteBSPFile: maps\mfxsp11.bsp
14042 planes 280840
37478 vertexes 449736
16011 nodes 384264
20382 texinfo 815280
28846 faces 576920
26498 clipnodes 211984
9655 leafs 270340
36957 marksurfaces 73914
132804 surfedges 531216
69520 edges 278080
190 textures 1897064
lightdata 0
visdata 0
entdata 135178

Skipped 2344 surfaces

1 warning 
surely you mean .pts file that�s being produced when leaking. 
If you don't mind, could you put the .map file that you currently have up somewhere, or send it via eMail please ?

It might also be worth trying to compile it in TyrUtils, to see if it's a compiler problem. 
mail send to you, and as i said earlier, tyranns compiler screws it all up. 
In what way though ?

If it refuses to compile it because of stricter rules or better error-checking, it's possible that something in the map is done in a way that may better be avoided or done differently.

If the map is solid but the output is wrong, then the map might be a good test-case to use to find the problem in the compiler.

In any event, there's something to be learned.

By the way, the file-format of .prt files from compilers with detail/hint support can differ slightly, causing Quark to choke. Are there any error-messages when loading the portal file ? 
Just Curious 
But why in the world would you want to open a portal file in Quark? I've been mapping for nearly 20 years and I've never felt the need to even look at a portal file. 
Mainly texture alignment problems are caused by tyrutils.. i know there a switch to avoid that.
No error msg from quark btw. No error when vising too(by now), i�m waiting for the output to be b0rked again...:) 
there�s just no other way to check the prt file.
Mainly to see if its congruent to the map structure, or , in this case it�s not.
Just curiousity i guess. 
load .map into Worldcraft 3.3 or 3.4 and go:

Map -> Check for problems.

Humour me, WC has decent illegal face and brush detection. Sometimes a face gets bad contents that isn't even facing the inside of the map.

You can identify any illegal brushes or faces in Worldcraft and repair in your editor of choice.

Unless you are using Worldcraft already and have already checked in the way I described above, in which case IDK, no ideas :/ 
Sneak Preview 
When trying to open the map in worldcraft, you don't even have to run Check for problems. It straight away says "4 brushes were not loaded due to errors in the map file" - which is almost certainly brushes worldcraft considers invalid shapes. I think they were somewhere in the rock sections - doesn't mean that the map won't compile but might be worth looking to see which ones it doesn't like. 
The brushes which caused the compiler warnings were 1 near the start, one at the SK door, and 2 in the pipes near the red key door. makes 4, right?

Map loads without warning in any editor (now).

its just the .prt file that has these issues, maybe what rebb said due to detail brushes?

What do i know... 
While I don't post here, so forgive me, I do read quite often... I opened the map up in WC, as suggested above, and did the "check map for problems", it reported there were quite a few "mixed face contents" errors. Don't know if that's worth anything?!

I loved the map btw, mfx maps always delivers :) 
Mixed Face 
Usually means liquid brushes touching sky ones, which is a problem for all compilers. Ricky is right in any case wc does have a very robust error checking system.

Mfx, I'm not sure if the try utils your using will have all the latest fixes. I'll upload to 'the folder' the ones I'm using. It's possible they're already there but I don't think so. Tyrann has squashed a few bugs there while I was putting together Telefragged. Probably not anything that'd cause a difference if it is mixed face contents - like I say, no Quake compiler lets you mix brush types in that way that I know of.

Annoying, but built into the format afaik. Or was never considered enough of a show stopper to warrant a fix :)

Trees tomorrow! That's 200 epic win points... 
Mixed Face Blabla 
caused by brushes which are liquidtextured (*prefix), AND have skipped faces, like on the bottom. I tthink the lava illusionaries i used for the layer effect are such kind of brushes. not crtical i guess.. 
..let me tell you i�ve got the tree now working, thanks to the misc_model code provided by... YOU!
Yes, it even works for the cables...
will shut up now.. 
Yeah, that's the other one, where the error actually describes the problem.

Non critical? Well, you live and learn... spose the bsp doesn't care about faces that have been removed. 
brushes shouldn�t overlap or intersect each other, i once read long ago.
but they can, and in this case one of them is liquid, so thats no problem.

imagine underwater part of maps like, well negkes dm 456 remix for example. one would go insane tryin to fill the pools with brushes of water, and the brushcount would reach limits soon.

qbsp treats liquids in a different way, thats all i know... 
I pointed it out cause along with overlapping it's "touching" the void? I don't think liquids are to do that. Also, I backspaced and deleted it, and BAM, there was another brush just like it in the same location... at least I think that's the way it was. Just letting you know/help, not trying to be a pain. 
Any Help Is Useful 
will check that, thanks! 
BAH, nevermind. I'm sorry seems it's not like that as far as duplicate brushes, grrr... 
Of any type can touch the void, won't cause any problem. The exception being brush entities - these won't seal you from the void. They can still touch it though, as long as you've got some other normal brush sealing it.

Water has no problem touching void as mfx says, and brushes can definitely overlap without issue. 
Nice Map 
Played on easy first felt well balanced finished in 11 mins. Played on skill 3 felt well balanced a gain died halfway ;). Tried to do a speedrun grr75^)&^)!!&* just a couple of pixels keep me from taking a nice shortcut :) 
Last Two Secrets 
might help me out but havent find those...any demos posted have all secrets? cba to watch m all :) I found (in order of play):

-ammo on crates
-GL in crate
-plasma gun
-red armor
-ammoroom with secret button for:
Orbs You Missed: 
Spoiler alert!

YA near the first sentinels in a shootable grate
at the lift.

MH in a rocky hideaway after the first Edie encounter(which is nearly impossible to find, watch out for a small ledge on the left side;)

Would have liked to see a demo from you, and yeah i know where those pixels are, you speedrunning enigma:) 
Skill 3 

if someone could hint me the last two secrets i might redo and upload demo 
should refresh before posting :) 
actualy found that ya first time looking around, but forgot about it when trying the run 
Never say you understand what pixels are on my mind! I will go through deep psychological processes wich will take me through stages of delirium, psychosis halucination but in the end willresult in some twisted revelation of completly silly route choice just to proove you wrong!

Nunc est bibendum!

a.k.a this isnt the fastest route but i liked it 
Cheers Orbs! 
I liked it too:)
Will shut up now... 
9/9 secrets on my first play! of course i derped after grabbing the megahealth. i'd record a demo if i didn't die so much. 
Tronyn Review 
Skill 3 100% 
Was missing a bunch of kills the whole time, the cells triggering the voreling was a dark secret to me a long time,good thing found it in time to be able to work tomorrow :) 
Nailed Those Few Pixels! 
Couldnt sleep was like lets have a coupel trys on that impossible trick, plop after 10 mins of play i got it ofcourse on a pretty poor try, one real mistake and well, damn that grunt! Oh wel atlast didnt screw up end :)

was kinda hoping he would boost those couple pixels i was still looking for instead he costed me a couple secs. 
Thanks for your kind words over at Quaddicted,
i�m glad you liked it. 
Nice shortcut dude! Like the way you dealt with the final room too. 
No Problem 
I liked the darker-than-usual atmosphere.

(I only noticed a bsp error once briefly and it didn't affect gameplay). 
It Should Be A Crime! 
To submit a demo like that.

mfx took "how long" to create that awesome map??? Only for orbs to beat, no destroy, it in almost under a MINUTE!!!

I took longer than that just to beat ONE of the Shamblers in the final room! And 43 other minutes for the rest of the level. I admit though, I'm a bit of a "sight-see'r" when I play. But hey, it was on "skill 3" does that count for something, hehe. 
You should have seen the demo of mfxsp10! 
hilarious demo there orbs :D 
But just think of how long the 'making of' demo of the demo would take ;) 
Update II 
Hi guys, it�s been a hard and painful time trying to fix it all.
First, i have to thank rebb for his restless efforts of making the HOM disappear.

After days of changing compilers, rebuilding almost every brush i did get it to compile with no errors, but still there are issues vising it.

So i�ve decided to give fastvis a try, and it works now. Blame me.

This is definitely a lesson i�ve learned, floating point coordinates and Quake don�t mix.

Zip file contains only .bsp and .lit file, repacked file will be available on Quaddicted soon, maybe even with proper readme?

Anyone finding a bug gets a cookie.


Its a shame the demos wont work anymore, so everybody is encouraged to record a new one.

And if you think, nah i know this map inside out, i have made very subtle changes in gameplay, mostly moving cheapshotting teleports out of sight, and changing shamblers into edie(due to popular demand). 
Cool So This Should Work Without Having To Set R_novis To 1? 
Way To Go Mfx 
I envy your work ethic 
Nitin, Yup. 
will replay on weekend. 
Thanks Mfx 
Awesome Sauce 
Oh Fucking Hell 
tape.mdl not found 
Got the older zip. 
you should releasse such a update/fix with a new bspname. Nowil just rename the old version to ..._old i geuss 
Brute Force Map Design 
So i�ve decided to give fastvis a try, and it works now.

fastvis = roughly one portal, in other words the engine is drawing most of the level all of the time. Set r_drawtris 1 to have a look. 
i know... 
New Version 
thansk for this new version. i'm still getting homs every how and then, but they are on different locations and not so obstrusive as before. 
Still Getting HOMs!?! 
That makes me sad..
Me and rebb were speculating about hardwre setups that maybe causing this.
I never had any issues when running this on mac tbh.
Don�t play it, or at least don�t complain anymore, just destroyed my smartphone out of pure ANGER .
I'm Sorry 
i didn't mean to upset you man.. map is fine right now. it's completely playable. it's not like a half of your field of view disappears. i can live with that :-)
Christ That's Horrible. 
MFX you broke it again, you gotta do another re-release now man!! 
I take some of the blame and I will altogether disable floating point coordinates for plane points in TrenchBroom 2.0. 
Biggest Lesson To Learn 
is to try and make the level piece by piece and make sure it's always "air tight". I made a massive mistake with q-deck by making the whole map first and trying to plug holes later.

Also use a couple of compilers, I used both tyranns qbsp and also treeq and made sure it compiled in both as often as I could. It's a ball ache but it will save you when come to do the full compile. 
Don't Use Quark... 
Mfx Sent Email 
I was able to get a full vis to work. I got rid of the floaty point stuff, patched some holes and compiled. 
Update III 
Nailed it! Fullvis, no HOMs.
Thanks to rebb, mechtech and preach!

Hey MFX. 
When we find some crucial error in this, will you break your PC as well?? ;) :P 
Making This Map Was The Crucial Error 
Maybe That Should Be The Title For Your NEXT Map... 
mfxsp18: "The Crucial Error"

Well, I played it three times(once for each release). Each time it took me about 45 minutes, and the last time I played on skill 1! It seems the third time is the charm, as it was waaaaaay better with it fixed.

I just wanted to say Thanks again, enjoyed it immensely.

- damage_ 
Yeah Use The Name For Your Next Map! 
Original bugs aside, I really enjoyed it. As I have every MFX map so far :) 
but which next map? 
I made a final final zip so we can finally add this to Quaddicted. ok? I edited the readme. 
I Think We Need Another Revision. 
I just want to see spirit pissed off. 
Is That The Really The Fixed Version? 
Filesize seems to big, maybe i�m just overly anxious bout it. 
i took the original zip, replaced the bsp and lit, added praise of myself to the readme and zipped it. 
Ok, praise yourself. 
Can't Get Into Gold Key Room 
OK, I admit it, I am stuck. I can't get into the Gold Key room. Can anyone please just spell it out for me? Thanks! 
up the lift, and right above the actual
gk room, a tear in the floor reveals.. 
If This Were Facebook 
(y) (y) (y) (y) (y)

thank god it's not facebook. 
You owned that one. 
Come Do A Rubicon Map! 
Still Can't Get Into Gold Key Room, But I Think It's My Fault 
Thanks, other Mike. I poked around the area and couldn't see a tear in the floor. Eventually noclipped down through it, and from there I COULD see the tear looking upwards! A very strange glitch. And the elevator that gets you out of the Gold Key room also didn't work properly for me, presumably because by noclipping in I'd failed to trigger an event that kicks it into action.

I don't really understand what went wrong here, but it could conceivably be because I'm running without Quoth -- I didn't realise until after I'd started playing that it was supposed to be a Quoth map.

I guess I'll just start again under Quoth and see if it's better behaved then.

Thanks again. 
Readmes are there for a reason.. 
So What The Current Version 
is it bug free? 
YES, Restart Using Quoth! 
Your failed trigger event Mike T is that when you kill a "Sentinel"(Quoth monster), below where you see into the gold key room, it causes an explosion that creates the path(crack) for you to access the gold key room, from above it!

At least that's how I remember it. It worth the replay anyway. 
Thanks, all. I'll start again under Quoth. 
Mike T 
Yes, start again!
This map is all about the quoth mod, playing it without it? You missed half of the map, man... 
Hail To The Map Fixer 
thanks for the fixed version. i tested it once again yesterday and everything worked as intended. i played on hard and dificulity was well balanced imho. i'm not a big fan od q2 tech/base level desing, but that setting works well in q1+quoth. keep them coming! 
Late As Fuck 
Just played this and it was awesome! Got all the secrets and all the kills. Some seriously sick architecture and I found the gameplay rather smooth in this one. Keep it up! 
This one offers slightly better gameplay than your previous maps IMHO. Loved the general atmosphere and the accompanying wind sound. Keep up the good work mfx.

QuakeSpasm 0.85.8 -- skill2 | 23m | 114/114k | 5/9s
Better Late Than Never 
Great map with a well-thought out layout and excellent detailing - except for the rocks maybe which seem quite flat especially on the top parts. Could have used some rounding off. I like the various subtle touches, e.g. the tech bits and platforms, broken parts, the lava effect. Nice exit portal.

The warning tape in its current form doesn't really fit with the environment. It's very bright and yellow, and of course the biohazard symbol doesn't make sense. Not sure why they would fence off lava pits with simple tape in the first place. Or was the idea that the pits only just appeared with the earthquakes?

Gameplay was okay, even a bit too easy on hard skill. Though I'm glad the map (at least in this third? version) wasn't Quoth abuse. Good secrets, the nails and lightning gun came in handy. I died once, squished by some damn lift!

What I didn't like so much was the way the monsters spawn in. In most cases they miraculously appear right around the corner or behind doors in areas you've just been to a second ago. It feels unrealistic und illogical. The repopulation itself makes sense and adds to the gameplay, but it would have been better with a proper rationale.

By and large, another great release. Demo 
Thanks for the demos negke, and the commentary is very appreciated and will be considered in future projects.

Don�t know how the intermission camera got so borked, in test versions it worked(Obligatory excuse can be addded here).

Thanks again for your time, and don�t mind my drunken rants:) 
During demo playback, the intermission view is pretty much always broken, but for the person playing the map it's fine.

What I meant is the location and the angle of the intermission camera. It's shows an incredibly boring scene (a corridor in the exit area, not even the portal) while the map offers several much better vistas. Remember, you can have up to four intermission entities and the game will pick one at random, so it's a good idea to use the highlights of a map for the intermission.

Btw. Preach: it appears timelimit is disabled in Quoth SP... why? 
Re: Intermission 
There was one in the SNG secret part which offered a quite nice vista, but it disappeared somehow..
Nice to have 4 of them, didnt knew that!
Culled Code 
Btw. Preach: it appears timelimit is disabled in Quoth SP... why?

It made a lot of sense to cordon off the bit of code in that was checking the fraglimit in single player, it was essentially polling every frame using an expensive builtin function, which is time better spent on other things. The timelimit code is adjacent and there didn't seem to be any reason to keep that in single-player. Any hacky use of it can be achieved through other, cleaner means as far as I could see... 
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